p_xavier
Authorized Fister
Any culture that doesn't respect basic human rights, which are common in Western countries, are inferior in my eyes. Try to convince me otherwise.
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Riots in Sweden
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Far right anti-Islam, even though Islam is literally as far right from liberal in practice and ideology.
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Darth_Ghandi
Banned
I’m sorry but saying that things like cinco de mayo are good to have and then talking how we should focus on cultural assimilation are two points that can’t be held at the same time.
If you are arguing for cultural assimilation you are arguing against minorities bringing their holidays into the mainstream.
Urban
Member
Im not trying to convince you or anything. Im just asking myself who am i to judge, what culture is inferior and what superior.
Some parts of the USA dont allow any abortion anymore. So they take the basic human right of a person to do what they want with their body.
p_xavier
Authorized Fister
Yes they can, hence the melting pot reference. You add an ingredient to the whole soup while being part entirely to the soup. I refered earlier to interculturalism, where a majority of values are shared, but you can keep part of the idendity and that can be celebrated. Compared to multiculturalism where you do your own thing or complete assimilation or colonialism which destroys your identity completely.
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p_xavier
Authorized Fister
Yup, but that's part of the Southern culture. Do you think it's inferior?
Darth_Ghandi
Banned
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Again, I'm not going to make a public judgment of Islam (or more specifically, radical aspects of Islam). I will do that on my private time with people I trust.
But what I very much can make a judgement on though, is American progressive liberals. And Islam being on the "intersectional" team doesn't fully make sense to me from a logical consistency perspective. Putting Islamic radicals in the same team as radical LGBTQ+ people is like... putting the Black Panthers and the Ku Klux Klan on the same team. Just doesn't make any sense, at all. So hopefully a liberal can explain it to me.
But what I very much can make a judgement on though, is American progressive liberals. And Islam being on the "intersectional" team doesn't fully make sense to me from a logical consistency perspective. Putting Islamic radicals in the same team as radical LGBTQ+ people is like... putting the Black Panthers and the Ku Klux Klan on the same team. Just doesn't make any sense, at all. So hopefully a liberal can explain it to me.
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p_xavier
Authorized Fister
Probably compared to the current "woke" movement where every culture now equals a different race. How can you be a great nation where your differences are highlighted and you have nothing in common. Integration is a mild form of assimilation. If you refuse to learn the locals language, well that's one form of assimilation that should be expected IMO.
Urban
Member
i dont think that the word "inferior" is the right way to say it. Because every "superior culture" has something to it, that makes it "inferior" in other persons eyes.
Zeroing
Banned
That is what I talked earlier. Burning a book can be seen as an act of provocation but also is rioting and saying it is in the name of religion. It is more than clear that for whatever reason there's 2 groups who do not see themselves as people who are living in 1 country. One group does not want the other group, the other group acts as they are not welcomed or do not care about the country they live in. Bottom like is the problem is always the same. Religion and people feeling/wanting to be outsiders.
People are just people, instead of focusing on what we have in common - Most of Europe and USA seems to be focusing so much on the differences, religious, cultural etc... that will not lead to one unified group.
p_xavier
Authorized Fister
It's because in post modernism critical theory, everyone who is oppressed needs to be defended. Islamophobia being a thing (which I find stupid because islam is not muslims), the oppressed need to be on the intersectionnality chart, which is all neo marxist bullshit anyways not grounded in reality.
p_xavier
Authorized Fister
I based the scale based on the cultural general happinness, wealth etc. so it can be more objective. Sweden here being an interesting case cause it used to be one the best place in the world to live in as per many polls, but it's now being attacked by another culture. The other culture diminishing the way of life of the country, I found it objective and logical to say that the new culture can be deemed inferior to the majority one.
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Darth_Ghandi
Banned
So you agree he is wrong when talking about cinco de mayo and still thinking assimilation is the correct path?
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Ah, you're absolutely right. Your explanation makes a lot of sense, even though the post modernist theories are garbage.
Anecdotally, I know a handful of LBG people (I live in a city with a prominent gay/lesbian population) who do NOT want radical Islam on the "same team." But I guess the people I know fit into my general image of gay/lesbian people -- just normal people (not "aCTiVisTs") who just want their standard rights and otherwise want to live their normal lives just like anyone. The Twitter activists ruin it for all of them.
Darth_Ghandi
Banned
So here is the Swedish police echoing what I’ve been saying regarding who is behind these riots.
www.expressen.se
Rikspolischefen kopplar gäng till helgens upplopp
Polisens teori är att kriminella gäng legat bakom delar av upploppen – och att myndigheten var den egentliga måltavlan. I kraftiga ordalag fördömer rikspolischef Anders Thornberg våldsverkarna. – Vi har starka misstankar att de har anknytning till de kriminella gängen, säger han. Statsminister...
www.expressen.se
p_xavier
Authorized Fister
I would argue to celebrate cinco de mayo because it brought many good ingredients to the melting pot. Same as Irish Italian etc. This what made America and the American Dream so great. As long as you shared the common values, assimilate to speak English, you could do anything and great things.
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InfiniteCombo
Banned
Someone gets it...
StormCell
Member
Darth_Ghandi
Banned
But then that ISNT assimilation.
It is good for sure but not assimilation as other posters claim.
p_xavier
Authorized Fister
There's a big fight right now between the LGB some T(ransexuals) and the Transgender)Q+ because of Queer Critical Theory, which has creeped out in Anglophone schools with neopronouns and such. Gays say that being gay is same sex attraction and Queers and Trans say it's homophobic/transphobic because being gay is attraction to the same gender, which again is a social construct that could mean anything. Hence why they can't define what is a woman and they can have penises.
Critical Theory is a poison in any field and should be fought like we're in a war.
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p_xavier
Authorized Fister
It's partial assimilation to core values and language.
Darth_Ghandi
Banned
I don’t agree that cinco de mayo is assimilated in language since it is Spanish.
You can just as well call it partial integration.
Patrick S.
Banned
Some friendly neighborhood Muslims attacking Easter celebrations in Catalunya. Very smart idea; Spanish police always hit you in the face with a stick first and ask questions later.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Speaking SPECIFICALLY on the riots, was EVERY Muslim there rioting or was it a specific small contingent of the Muslim population?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
As for you guys talking about social class and extreme religious violence and assimilation here’s my views.
1. Out of all the popular religions out there, there is no way anyone can say Muslim is equal or less violent than others. Other religious people aren’t the ones chopping off peoples heads at people ripping up books.
2. I agree that social class influences violence. That goes for anything. Every demographic you see will show the poorer you are the more crime and violence done.
3. Assimilation depends on your definition of it. If a foreigner melts in trying to be like everyone else, that is one kind of assimilation. If a foreigner stays true to their culture and language but still lives life like everyone else with a job and getting through life, that’s assimilation too. You don’t need to copy people’s lifestyles to be a good person getting through life in a different country.
I think some people assume assimilation = good. No assimilation = bad. Maybe sometimes, but not all the time.
The problem is see is people trying to force their beliefs (which can contain violence). If someone wants to be weird worshipping a pentagram in their basement hoping a red dude with a pitchfork appears go ahead. But don’t act like an asshole about it to people outside your house.
1. Out of all the popular religions out there, there is no way anyone can say Muslim is equal or less violent than others. Other religious people aren’t the ones chopping off peoples heads at people ripping up books.
2. I agree that social class influences violence. That goes for anything. Every demographic you see will show the poorer you are the more crime and violence done.
3. Assimilation depends on your definition of it. If a foreigner melts in trying to be like everyone else, that is one kind of assimilation. If a foreigner stays true to their culture and language but still lives life like everyone else with a job and getting through life, that’s assimilation too. You don’t need to copy people’s lifestyles to be a good person getting through life in a different country.
I think some people assume assimilation = good. No assimilation = bad. Maybe sometimes, but not all the time.
The problem is see is people trying to force their beliefs (which can contain violence). If someone wants to be weird worshipping a pentagram in their basement hoping a red dude with a pitchfork appears go ahead. But don’t act like an asshole about it to people outside your house.
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Decontamination Silo
Banned
Those cultures are growing and yours is shrinking. They’re even going to be enjoying your infrastructure
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
If only people didn't pick and choose (based on tribalism) when to ask these sorts of questions, or broad brushing.
Darth_Ghandi
Banned
Weird how the Swedish police are saying the riots aren’t instigated by religious people tho?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Darth_Ghandi
Banned
Check my post higher up for the police’s statement.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I know what they said. I am asking, do you really think it's weird?
Darth_Ghandi
Banned
According to the vast majority here it should be since they talk exclusively about extremists.
Me? It is in line with what I have been saying from the start.
Happy to hold the W
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
According to the vast majority here it should be since they talk exclusively about extremists.
Me? It is in line with what I have been saying from the start.
Happy to hold the W
Perhaps, if they weren't the most successful countries in the world.
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InfiniteCombo
Banned
Jesus, what a partial derail. Let me clarify once and for all:
In the metro area I live in, we have Muslim people that:
(1) have assimilated to American ideas (founding principles of the nation, the Constitution, respect for the Judeo-Christian sensibilities of the majority, etc )
(2) They have -- within an American context -- contributed to the melting pot of American culture. In the city we have Halal markets, mosques and other Muslim places of worship, many restaurants with cuisines from majority-Muslim countries, etc.
When it is done in this way, in harmony with the overarching ideas of the majority, it.... WORKS.
In the metro area I live in, we have Muslim people that:
(1) have assimilated to American ideas (founding principles of the nation, the Constitution, respect for the Judeo-Christian sensibilities of the majority, etc )
(2) They have -- within an American context -- contributed to the melting pot of American culture. In the city we have Halal markets, mosques and other Muslim places of worship, many restaurants with cuisines from majority-Muslim countries, etc.
When it is done in this way, in harmony with the overarching ideas of the majority, it.... WORKS.
Decontamination Silo
Banned
What does the trend look like though? I’d argue the success came before the extreme melting. Surely in America the cities, infrastructure and scientific achievements were done so before 1970.
How does your view coexist with the rise of China?
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
This is the problem with trying to place things on a single left/right axis.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
No disrespect, but based on your posts, you're nowhere near a "W" on this topic.Happy to hold the W
But if it helps you sleep at night, sure, go ahead and give yourself the "W." Because no one else, who lives in reality, gonna give it to ya
The trend looks good in my country. Selective immigration bringing lots of skill and new ideas into the country.
The US seems to have made many discoveries since 1970. Blaming infrastructure problems on melting pot multiculturalism is new, how does that work? Blaming it on lazy immigrants and not those actually responsible for it?
Unsure what you're asking about China. Coexist with the rise of China in what way?
Darth_Ghandi
Banned
So you could call it…. Multiculturalism? Integration? Partial assimilation?
No disrespect, but based on your posts, you're nowhere near a "W" on this topic.
But if it helps you sleep at night, sure, go ahead and give yourself the "W." Because no one else, who lives in reality, gonna give it to ya
Well I can’t say I’m surprised since you have tried to conflate assimilation with partial assimilation or whatever your goal posts now resides.
You are more then welcome to make a detailed account on what I said that is wrong.
But regard to the police saying that criminal gangs are behind most of the riots in most definitely holding that W.
I don't think so. America is a melting pot, if you have the perspective and understanding that not all white people are a monolithic block of "culture". The US was a blend of many european cultures and several others that forged a work ethic, commercial industry, and government system that has dominated the globe. Obviously there are american cultures that were lesser contributors, unwilling contributors perhaps, or marginalized but the "melting pot" idea is that the final product is a somewhat homogenized and harmonious soup, it isn't entirely discrete and conflicting collection of things with the only thing common is that they are on the same plate.
So if you want the soup to taste good, you have to be a bit judicious in what additional flavors you allow to be added, lest the entire dish come apart (which, to be fair, is the inevitable end result of all dishes (civilizations).
IMHO America was at its best when we poached the best and brightest, most industrious folks from other places and gave them a fertile ground to flourish here in service to an american ideal that was accommodating to ideas consistent with our values but was unwelcoming to folks who wouldn't integrate and couldn't produce value. We've missed opportunities for positive growth IMHO though, time will tell if we continue to grow or start to diminish or fracture.
Patrick S.
Banned
And I bet the majority of those people aren't scum who hopped on a boat, headed to the American coast, conveniently lost their passports, and their first words when they arrived weren't "help me, give money". It's damn hard for foreigners to get legal residence in the US, and I guess most of these Muslims you speak of are a valuable contribution to any society they go to.
And those are the people I welcome, too. Not, for example, Turks who have lived in Germany for sixty years, yet can't hold a conversation in German.
And don't get me started on shit like honor killings.... commited by people who murder their own daughters and sisters for tainting the family honor if they are caught being in a relationship with a German, while the brothers of these youg girls bang a different blonde girl every day of the weekend. (Those are the absolute extreme cases, I know, but what I'm trying to say is that they do happen, and there are people who not only don't want to assimilate, but literally consider us infidels animals who will tarnish the honor of their whole family).
InfiniteCombo
Banned
The point of that summary post (#186) was to take us from your previous attempts at confusing/obfuscating the issue by playing mental gymnastics on one (otherwise) well-defined word.
I posted definitions with examples, and I'll stick by them. If you choose to continue being confused, that's on you, and I feel like I can no longer help you.
If you want I'll be happy to engage with you on other aspects of this conversation. But if we're gonna do that, I'll urge you to come in better prepared to understand and provide counterarguments. If you're gonna come and obfuscate and confuse, I'm not interested. It's not personal, I just don't have that kind of time
Decontamination Silo
Banned
It’s the prevailing laissez-faire attitudes that comes with unchecked liberalism. The further we move away from true meritocracy the worse it's going to get. College admissions basing entrance on non academic qualifiers is a good example.
China’s rise is happening alongside the rise of the Middle East. Even Russia is no longer deterred by the tired West. If liberal democracy was an ipso facto better system of governance, why has it fallen so far behind? Sweden cannot even protect itself from a growing illiberal population because their own charter gives them no defense against it. As we saw a few posts up their own police force cannot even state the reasons for the violence for fear of cancelation. Just take a moment to let the current cultural and demographic trends play out in Europe and where do you think those countries will be in 50 - 100 years?
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Darth_Ghandi
Banned
The point of that summary post (#186) was to take us from your previous attempts at confusing/obfuscating the issue by playing mental gymnastics on one (otherwise) well-defined word.
I posted definitions with examples, and I'll stick by them. If you choose to continue being confused, that's on you, and I feel like I can no longer help you.
If you want I'll be happy to engage with you on other aspects of this conversation. But if we're gonna do that, I'll urge you to come in better prepared to understand and provide counterarguments. If you're gonna come and obfuscate and confuse, I'm not interested. It's not personal, I just don't have that kind of time
You obviously didn’t know what you were writing and needed to move your goals by redefining the word you used.
That is what happened.
You could have said that you misspoke, but instead double down with a definition you made up all by yourself.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
I gave a source for my definition. You haven't done anything but deflect and be confused. So the only conclusions I can draw is that you're either acting in bad faith, or you're IQ-challenged. Either way, it doesn't work for me. (EDIT: I realize it doesn't have to be an either/or; you can be acting in bad faith AND have low IQ. That would be a lethal combinationYou obviously didn’t know what you were writing and needed to move your goals by redefining the word you used.
That is what happened.
You could have said that you misspoke, but instead double down with a definition you made up all by yourself.
)That, on top of you having NO actual arguments to make. I'm done with you.
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Darth_Ghandi
Banned
Your definition supports MY view. It means that the minority takes after the majority.
Doesn’t mention anything about infusion of culture (no matter how positive or not).
You are just mad that you are wrong and thus needs to make IQ attacks.
Just be more specific with your word.
I wouldn’t have said otherwise if you used something like partial assimilation or something adjacent.
Meritocracy has expanded to include more qualifications according to values that develop over time. Sure there are probably a few counter examples like schools letting in the monied or nepotism. Yet, that problem isn't the result of multiculturalism though immigrants could take advantage of it.
Western liberal democracy is a better system of governance by all metrics and its success has benefited the world with its openess. Even hostile governments.
Yet, taking any success which may be happening in China and Middle East and crediting it solely to multiculturalism in the West is silly.
Not being an alarmist that thinks the sky is falling over a few immigrants in Sweden, seems like Europe will still be a well educated and developed continent in 50 -100 years that will adapt to any challenges.
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