Yeah, I agree that the best american indy comics are, in most cases, better than the best manga. If a concerted effort was made across the board by DC or Marvel to publish amd actually get stuff like that into stores at a 1:1 or more ratio to their superhero fare, with affordable prices and adequate marketing, I'm sure they'd turn the market around for the better. But change is scary and so no one does.Ignatz Mouse said:
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as a reader of american books, their typical quality is no worse than your typical popular manga IMHO.
but what is truly funny are those comparing the japanese comic industry to the american comic industry and then trying to imply that its quality (or lack thereof) that is the reason American comics sell so much less. Nevermind the fact that Japan is in general a commuter based society. Nevermind the fact that most manga sales happen at or around transit hubs. Nevermind that in a place as expensive as Tokyo, your typical 400+ page manga is under $3. No, youre right.. Its probably because manga kicks so much ass and american books suck
Ill give you guys a hint.. manga is big in japan, because manga has always been big in japan. their lifestyles accommodate having a lot of time during a week in which they arent doing anything but commuting, and buying all of the main manga weeklies that come out in a week costs under $20.
in america, first you have the utter beating american comics took in the 50s with Seduction of the Innocent. Then you have the beatings comics took in the 90s with the speculator crash and Perlman running Marvel into the ground. This isnt even to mention the fact that most of us either drive or if we are driven, the commute is generally under 10 minutes. But the worst of these by far was Seduction of the Innocent. Not only did it damage mainstream comics for 30 some years, but it also attached the whole kiddie stigma to them. Adults read Captain America Comics. Adults read Detective Comics. Adults read Action Comics. But then Seduction of the Innocent came along and essentially said that this was all kids stuff aimed at corrupting kids lives and it stuck. It has stuck for the last 50 years.
There are many reasons manga sell better than comics. Quality is not one of them. The most popular manga in japan are the same never ending male driven power fantasies that most American superhero books are. it is a very appealing genre for many reasons. Bleach. Naruto. Dragonball. One Piece. Yugi Oh. all superheroes essentially. And it should be noted that while they havent each been going for 40 years, they have been each going (except bleach . so far) for hundreds of issues.
the biggest two reasons Japans comic industry is doing better than america is because the commuter part of their society gives them time which they need to fill, and they never experienced a Seduction of the Innocent or speculator crash. But to suggest anything else, or to suggest its because superhero comics, who have seen their circulation numbers grow continuously over the last 10ish years, are stunting the industry, is just stupid.
but what is truly funny are those comparing the japanese comic industry to the american comic industry and then trying to imply that its quality (or lack thereof) that is the reason American comics sell so much less. Nevermind the fact that Japan is in general a commuter based society. Nevermind the fact that most manga sales happen at or around transit hubs. Nevermind that in a place as expensive as Tokyo, your typical 400+ page manga is under $3. No, youre right.. Its probably because manga kicks so much ass and american books suck
Ill give you guys a hint.. manga is big in japan, because manga has always been big in japan. their lifestyles accommodate having a lot of time during a week in which they arent doing anything but commuting, and buying all of the main manga weeklies that come out in a week costs under $20.
in america, first you have the utter beating american comics took in the 50s with Seduction of the Innocent. Then you have the beatings comics took in the 90s with the speculator crash and Perlman running Marvel into the ground. This isnt even to mention the fact that most of us either drive or if we are driven, the commute is generally under 10 minutes. But the worst of these by far was Seduction of the Innocent. Not only did it damage mainstream comics for 30 some years, but it also attached the whole kiddie stigma to them. Adults read Captain America Comics. Adults read Detective Comics. Adults read Action Comics. But then Seduction of the Innocent came along and essentially said that this was all kids stuff aimed at corrupting kids lives and it stuck. It has stuck for the last 50 years.
There are many reasons manga sell better than comics. Quality is not one of them. The most popular manga in japan are the same never ending male driven power fantasies that most American superhero books are. it is a very appealing genre for many reasons. Bleach. Naruto. Dragonball. One Piece. Yugi Oh. all superheroes essentially. And it should be noted that while they havent each been going for 40 years, they have been each going (except bleach . so far) for hundreds of issues.
the biggest two reasons Japans comic industry is doing better than america is because the commuter part of their society gives them time which they need to fill, and they never experienced a Seduction of the Innocent or speculator crash. But to suggest anything else, or to suggest its because superhero comics, who have seen their circulation numbers grow continuously over the last 10ish years, are stunting the industry, is just stupid.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
DC has made several attempts, actually, with mixed results. They still seem to be trying.
They established Piranha Press and had some good stuff published there, which I believe was also creator owned.
The established Paradox Press, with an eye toward self-contained work targetted at bookstores. This is mostly genre stuff, usully crime stories, but pretty decent. Very comprable to manga, I would say. Black and white. They seem to have been most successful at getting movies made of them-- this is where "The Road to Perdition" was published, and the upcoming "A History of Violence."
They also publish Howard Cruse's gay-coming-of-age 60's period piece "Stuck Rubber Baby" which is much more like the indies I love most. It's a great story.
Then there's Vertigo, Focus, and the I-forget-now attempt at a sci-fi line.
(A complete aside, but Road to Perdition, despite being a depression-era gangster story, seems to me to be heavily inspired by Lone Wolf and Cub.)
They established Piranha Press and had some good stuff published there, which I believe was also creator owned.
The established Paradox Press, with an eye toward self-contained work targetted at bookstores. This is mostly genre stuff, usully crime stories, but pretty decent. Very comprable to manga, I would say. Black and white. They seem to have been most successful at getting movies made of them-- this is where "The Road to Perdition" was published, and the upcoming "A History of Violence."
They also publish Howard Cruse's gay-coming-of-age 60's period piece "Stuck Rubber Baby" which is much more like the indies I love most. It's a great story.
Then there's Vertigo, Focus, and the I-forget-now attempt at a sci-fi line.
(A complete aside, but Road to Perdition, despite being a depression-era gangster story, seems to me to be heavily inspired by Lone Wolf and Cub.)
a few weeks ago I put some numbers up on these boards. DC and Marvel ARE turning the market around. numbers have been on a gradual incline since the late-90's. they are at their highest average circulations right now that they have been at since the peak of the mid-90's.Shig said:
I also think saying Marvel and DC need to publish more non-hero stuff is sort of naive. Look at LOEG, or WE3, or any of the ABC stuff.. Fables, Y, etc... Ex Machina.. they publish lots of non-spandex, and it does nowhere near the numbers I think some of you are thinking it would do.
We are Americans and we like our superheroes. those of you who don't should be greatful there are other options. But don't act like it's superheroes who are keeping the industry down. because there is plenty of non-superhero faire out there that isn't doing shit to advance or increase the industry. At least not as much as some of you would make it out to be.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I don't think they shoudl be publishing different stuff-- I agree, they already do.
I think they should (and in fact, they are) keep trying new formats and outlets to sell them.
I *wish* these other forms would do better numbers. Too many creators I like have left the field because there's more money to be made elsewhere.
PS: Amusing that all this discussion came out of a Rob Liefield thread.
I think they should (and in fact, they are) keep trying new formats and outlets to sell them.
I *wish* these other forms would do better numbers. Too many creators I like have left the field because there's more money to be made elsewhere.
PS: Amusing that all this discussion came out of a Rob Liefield thread.
Oh, I know they do, I know they do. But does that stuff recieve the marketing push of a new superhero series launch, relaunch, or crossover? In 99% of cases, not even close, not even in the ballpark.borghe said:
My argument isn't that it should be more prevalent because it's better, it's that it should be more prevalent because a market that has a broader range of subjects is going to attract more people. Superheroes are great, but they shouldn't be the cornerstone of the industry. They should be a niche.
and hell, even Marvel is using their newfound success to take a stab at mainstreamized creator owned stuff with Icon...
the one thing that really needs to happen IMHO, not based out of manga or anti-superheroes... just get the TPB section of books stores out of the "book ghetto". Seriously.. when you stick TPBs, regardless of content, in with the sci-fi and roleplaying books... what the hell do you expect? for them to fly off the shelves?
move TPBs out of the nerd ghetto in book stores, and even out the superhero ratio a little more, and you can probably expand comic readership quite a bit.
but they will be the cornerstone.. in the same vein that summer blockbusters are the cornerstones of the movie industry, and GTA and Madden are the cornerstone of the video game industry. Males 18-35 are THE number one demographic, and in general will decide the cornerstone of any market that includes them.
the one thing that really needs to happen IMHO, not based out of manga or anti-superheroes... just get the TPB section of books stores out of the "book ghetto". Seriously.. when you stick TPBs, regardless of content, in with the sci-fi and roleplaying books... what the hell do you expect? for them to fly off the shelves?
move TPBs out of the nerd ghetto in book stores, and even out the superhero ratio a little more, and you can probably expand comic readership quite a bit.
Shig said:
but they will be the cornerstone.. in the same vein that summer blockbusters are the cornerstones of the movie industry, and GTA and Madden are the cornerstone of the video game industry. Males 18-35 are THE number one demographic, and in general will decide the cornerstone of any market that includes them.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
They need to split up the TPBs in bookstores altogether.
Maus does not belong next to Watchmen does not belong next to Ultimate Spider-Man V 11.
I also think they need to digest-ify comics and get them into airports, supermarket checkouts, and other places where adults buy disposable reading matter. And then start gearing that content for that audience.
Maus does not belong next to Watchmen does not belong next to Ultimate Spider-Man V 11.
I also think they need to digest-ify comics and get them into airports, supermarket checkouts, and other places where adults buy disposable reading matter. And then start gearing that content for that audience.
the first two good suggestions made in this thread (and by no coincidence suggestions I have made previously as well).Ignatz Mouse said:
Absolutely.. if it is a noir TPB, stick it with the mystery books. get rid of TPB sections and just stick the damn books where they belong... so will superheroes probably still end up in the nerd ghetto? yeah, but ummmmm.. go figure.
and digests are paramount. I mean nothing is as shitty as getting 22 pages of reading for $3 nowadays, but getting an hour (maybe an hour and a half) for $15 is almost just as shitty. get us trades for $8-10 with similar (150-200) page counts. give a guy a book for $8 he can read on the flight from cali to florida and you'll make a sale.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Yeah, those are age-old suggestions.
I don't know if it's that important to have a long price-to-length ratio. People buy magazines. I think the mateial has to be compelling and compact, though. The Paradox Press crime stuff is a great size and shape, and can't be read through all that fast. They need to put it where people will find it, though. I happen to have read a lot of it, but I also like superhero comics and haunt comic shops. Joe Average, who will probably like the movie "A History of Violence" won't even know it existed. Ditto "Road to Perdition" which I'm sure most people never knew was a comic.
I don't know if it's that important to have a long price-to-length ratio. People buy magazines. I think the mateial has to be compelling and compact, though. The Paradox Press crime stuff is a great size and shape, and can't be read through all that fast. They need to put it where people will find it, though. I happen to have read a lot of it, but I also like superhero comics and haunt comic shops. Joe Average, who will probably like the movie "A History of Violence" won't even know it existed. Ditto "Road to Perdition" which I'm sure most people never knew was a comic.
I'm not so sure putting books in with their literary counterparts would work well. Comics have to escape the stigma of being juvenile first. A mystery book fan would probably just go "oh, it's a comic" and put it back.
To back the point (yes, circumstantial evidence, I know), I worked in a bookstore when Road to Perdition came out. We put the GN (which had the movie cover and looked very much like a normal book, to the untrained eye) on the new & notable release wall, and it didn't sell any there. We sold a couple when we put it back in the graphic novels, however.
To back the point (yes, circumstantial evidence, I know), I worked in a bookstore when Road to Perdition came out. We put the GN (which had the movie cover and looked very much like a normal book, to the untrained eye) on the new & notable release wall, and it didn't sell any there. We sold a couple when we put it back in the graphic novels, however.
there is no quick fix whatsoever for curing comics of the juvenile stigma.. none. the answer however IS to stick them with their literary counterparts. Would someone probably pass over a TPB in the mystery section? Sure.. but what about the fourth, fifth, sixth, or seventh time? eighth, ninth, or tenth? especially as/if the books became more prevalent in the section? Finally, what is worse, sticking a noir TPB in with the mysteries where it may get passed over, or right next to superman where the same customer WILL pass it over.Shig said:
I completely believe what you are saying about Road to Perdition... but it's as I'm saying. It won't happen over night. Comics have a juvenile stigma attached to them. Taking one book right now and putting it out, no matter how un-superhero it is, won't change that. but after separating them from the superheroes, and sticking them with like genre books for years straight.. youdon't think that would increase sales?
certainly it will increase sales on say romance TPBs more than having them next to Spawn....
Spike Spiegel said:Yeah, that's pretty much it as I recall. Cerebus guides Spawn on a weird little mind-trip that depicts the evil of the "corporate comics" tyrants, DC and Marvel, and the shining hope that is creator ownership, as embodied by the (then) newly-formed Image. The bound and hooded men are the creators, and their creations, the superheroes of DC and Marvel, are caged by the companies that own the rights to them.
Dave Sim is a big advocate of creator ownership, as you can imagine.
That's funny, there was a Wizard contest where you had to identify all the hands for a chance to win a bunch of comics. I wonder if anyone here can name all of them?
Outcast2004
Banned
Shig said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa..... just whoa...
The reason Superheroes are the mainstream is because that's what sells! You're asking for an entire industry to be catered to an extremely small segment of the comic buying public.
If you want the ENTIRE industy to fold, then fine make the spandexers a niche. But think about it for a second... what genrates the income to be able to produce the low print run, creator owned properties? Superhero comics.
That would be like having Hollywood ct back on the blockbusters so they can focus on art house stuff. But the blockbusters FINANCE the art house movies thatmake no money.. see the problem here?
I'm all for different stuff in the comic field, variety is the spice of life and all....
BUT, I'm a big time hero buyer. As are 99.9% of the rest of the comic buying public. That's not likely to change, probably ever.
Can't we just go back to bashing the big ball of suck that is Mr. Liefeld instead of tryiong to find new ways to kill off the comic industry?
I'm a big time hero buyer also.. hell, I am still going through Avengers Disassembled despite the obvious crap of Cap appearing in 4!!!! places at the same time (Avengers, Cap, Cap & Falcon, Spect Spidey) and none having relation to any other..
anywho.. like I just said a few posts back.. the majority of 18-35 year olds want action, adventure, heroics, etc. Because of that heroes will never become a niche.. I do agree though that DC especially needs to work to get more non-hero trades out into the book stores, and marvel needs to keep working on beefing up their non-hero line in general. It is great that heroes are so successful at buttering those companies' bread, but I think they need to use that butter now to create some more lines..
Hell, even back in the day both companies had sci-fi, espionage, war, westerns, horror, etc. nowhere near as focused on heroes as they are now.
anywho.. like I just said a few posts back.. the majority of 18-35 year olds want action, adventure, heroics, etc. Because of that heroes will never become a niche.. I do agree though that DC especially needs to work to get more non-hero trades out into the book stores, and marvel needs to keep working on beefing up their non-hero line in general. It is great that heroes are so successful at buttering those companies' bread, but I think they need to use that butter now to create some more lines..
Hell, even back in the day both companies had sci-fi, espionage, war, westerns, horror, etc. nowhere near as focused on heroes as they are now.
I think you're wrong. The reason superheroes are mainstream is because that is what is sold, what gets most of the big companies' marketing and advertising budgets. If a book like Y:The Last Man got nearly as big a hype and awareness push put behind it as a Green Lantern relaunch, it'd do much better.Outcast2004 said:
"The problem here" is that you and others are equating the superhero genre to the blockbuster class. Is Jurassic Park of the same genre as Hannibal, is Dukes of Hazzard of the same genre as Star Wars?
A better comparison would be superhero comics to superhero movies... Superhero movies are usually blockbusters, but only a small percentage of blockbusters are superhero movies. How do you think the movie industry would do in the long run if 80% of their focus was one specific genre of flick? I would place my bet on "not well".
I'm not saying the superhero genre should go away, but it should recognize itself for just that, a genre, and trim itself back to be a bit more in line with what a particular genre is to any other industry; it can still be a big part of the pie, like "action" is to movies or "sci-fi/fantasy" is to books. But it shouldn't be such a commanding piece, as it is now.
ironically I would argue yes, they are all still the same genre of movie and attract the exact same audience. that is like saying that spider-man is the same comic as batman is the same comic as punisher.Shig said:
now a more apt comparison would be like saying Pride and Prejudice is not the same as star wars.. Pride and Prejudice could turn out to be successful in its own right, but won't sell as many tickets as Star Wars.
Sukahii16 said:
http://img117.echo.cx/img117/5473/spawnn10p06077ta.jpg
Almost. I remember working for Wizard when the issue came out -- and we had the damndest time picking out a few of the hands.
I don't remember Wizard having a contest for it, though. And that's odd because most months I was in charge of proofreading the contest text...
Bottom row: Hulk, Captain Marvel, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, I don't know...
Second row: Ultron (?), Venom or Spider-Man, Wolverine
Third row: Juggernaut, Superman, Spider-Man, Gray Gargoyle (?), Dr. Doom, Captain America
Top: Flash, Thing, Thor, Dr. Octopus, Joker
Anyway. Anyone who can fill in the blanks will be my own personal Jesus.
2004
1 Shrek 2
2 Spider-Man 2
3 The Passion of the Christ
4 Meet the Fockers
5 The Incredibles
6 Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
7 The Day After Tomorrow
8 The Bourne Supremacy
9 National Treasure
10 The Polar Express
11 Shark Tale
12 I, Robot
13 Troy
14 Ocean's Twelve
15 50 First Dates
16 Van Helsing
17 Fahrenheit 9/11
18 Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events
19 DodgeBall: A True Underdog Story
20 The Village
2003
1 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
2 Finding Nemo
3 Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl
4 The Matrix Reloaded
5 Bruce Almighty
6 X2: X-Men United
7 Elf
8 Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines
9 The Matrix Revolutions
10 Cheaper by the Dozen
11 Bad Boys II
12 Anger Management
13 Bringing Down the House
14 Hulk
15 2 Fast 2 Furious
16 Something's Gotta Give
17 Seabiscuit
18 S.W.A.T.
19 Spy Kids 3D: Game Over
20 The Last Samurai
2002
1 Spider-Man
2 The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers
3 Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones
4 Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
5 My Big Fat Greek Wedding
6 Signs
7 Austin Powers in Goldmember
8 Men in Black II
9 Ice Age
10 Chicago
11 Catch Me If You Can
12 Die Another Day
13 Scooby-Doo
14 Lilo & Stitch
15 XXX
16 The Santa Clause 2
17 Minority Report
18 The Ring
19 Sweet Home Alabama
20 Mr. Deeds
2001
1 Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
2 The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring
3 Shrek
4 Monsters, Inc.
5 Rush Hour 2
6 The Mummy Returns
7 Pearl Harbor
8 Ocean's Eleven
9 Jurassic Park III
10 Planet of the Apes
11 A Beautiful Mind
12 Hannibal
13 American Pie 2
14 The Fast and the Furious
15 Lara Croft: Tomb Raider
16 Dr. Dolittle 2
17 Spy Kids
18 Black Hawk Down
19 The Princess Diaries
20 Vanilla Sky
I'm sorry man, but I look at those movies and I don't see variety.. family, comedy, and popcorn are all I see.. you get an occassional chick flick disguised as a comedy, and maybe an occassional horror movie... but otherwise all of those top 20 lists are pretty cut and dried into one of those three genres... sure you can separate the fast and the furious from minority report in the video store, but really they are only half a step apart at best.
1 Shrek 2
2 Spider-Man 2
3 The Passion of the Christ
4 Meet the Fockers
5 The Incredibles
6 Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
7 The Day After Tomorrow
8 The Bourne Supremacy
9 National Treasure
10 The Polar Express
11 Shark Tale
12 I, Robot
13 Troy
14 Ocean's Twelve
15 50 First Dates
16 Van Helsing
17 Fahrenheit 9/11
18 Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events
19 DodgeBall: A True Underdog Story
20 The Village
2003
1 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
2 Finding Nemo
3 Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl
4 The Matrix Reloaded
5 Bruce Almighty
6 X2: X-Men United
7 Elf
8 Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines
9 The Matrix Revolutions
10 Cheaper by the Dozen
11 Bad Boys II
12 Anger Management
13 Bringing Down the House
14 Hulk
15 2 Fast 2 Furious
16 Something's Gotta Give
17 Seabiscuit
18 S.W.A.T.
19 Spy Kids 3D: Game Over
20 The Last Samurai
2002
1 Spider-Man
2 The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers
3 Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones
4 Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
5 My Big Fat Greek Wedding
6 Signs
7 Austin Powers in Goldmember
8 Men in Black II
9 Ice Age
10 Chicago
11 Catch Me If You Can
12 Die Another Day
13 Scooby-Doo
14 Lilo & Stitch
15 XXX
16 The Santa Clause 2
17 Minority Report
18 The Ring
19 Sweet Home Alabama
20 Mr. Deeds
2001
1 Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
2 The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring
3 Shrek
4 Monsters, Inc.
5 Rush Hour 2
6 The Mummy Returns
7 Pearl Harbor
8 Ocean's Eleven
9 Jurassic Park III
10 Planet of the Apes
11 A Beautiful Mind
12 Hannibal
13 American Pie 2
14 The Fast and the Furious
15 Lara Croft: Tomb Raider
16 Dr. Dolittle 2
17 Spy Kids
18 Black Hawk Down
19 The Princess Diaries
20 Vanilla Sky
I'm sorry man, but I look at those movies and I don't see variety.. family, comedy, and popcorn are all I see.. you get an occassional chick flick disguised as a comedy, and maybe an occassional horror movie... but otherwise all of those top 20 lists are pretty cut and dried into one of those three genres... sure you can separate the fast and the furious from minority report in the video store, but really they are only half a step apart at best.
I get the point you are trying to make, but they are different genres not nearly so similar to each other as a superhero book is to another superhero book. You're just being ridiculous to try and say Minority Report is to Fast & the Furious as Batman is to Spider-man.borghe said:
really... what is the difference? neither have much depth. neither offer much insight. neither serve any sort of significance other than to entertain for roughly two hours and then to move on. both accomplish this through similar ends (action, fx, a main protagonist and a prominent antagonist), etc. Heck both even involve common action staples. car chases, guns, hand to hand fighting, gunfights, etc.Shig said:
one really has to ask themselves how different many movies are.
yet you (broadly) imply that Batman Dark Knight Returns or Year One are similar to Return of the Green Goblin...
Shouta
Member
It's a whole combination of things that fuel the Japanese comic industry and the commuter nature of the society is only one part ( perhaps only a small part and it may not affect it in the same way as you've said) of the bigger picture. Comics in Japan have cultural acceptance as a viable entertainment format and are read by wide range of people because of the variety of genres represented. That fact allows for much more success.
As for the American industry, there's two areas it needs to overcome, content and marketing/distribution. Content is pretty obvious in most regards. More variety in content means a wider market to be able to sell to. The focus on superhero comics limits the market they can sell to and that itself stunts the industry as a whole. The other is of course marketing/distribution which seems to have been addressed some already. The format the Japanese industry (compilations -> GN/Books) took in regard to this is great from a business standpoint but I'm just not sure it would be a good format for American comics.
That's kind of an issue that ties in with the variety point I made above. Superhero comics are the cornerstone of the comics industry because they are the only things being created en masse. So their success and failure gauges the health of the industry as a whole. The same can't be said if the success of other genres were just as big. You'd have multiple big sellers and cornerstones to the genre or group that they are trying to appeal to. It's like how Jump is a cornerstone of the Shounen branch of comics in Japan but there's also another cornerstone for all the Shojo comics there are (I don't know who's big in that area =P). The failure of Jump to sell big numbers won't necessarily affect, say, Ribbon (A Shoujo compilation as I recall). Of course, that sort of thing almost never works in America, we're so one-track. :lol
You're ridiculous. You vastly oversimplify two examples that are quite easily removed from each other on the surface, and then browbeat me for comparing two figures that have very obvious and elementary parallels?borghe said:
Superhero books follow a pretty similar system of staples you mentioned, so I guess in the end they're the same as all those dumb hollywood movies, huh? EVERYTHING'S THE SAME AS EVERYTHING ELSE JANE GET ME OFF THIS CRAZY THING! :lol
Shouta said:
Ah, but Shounen Jump does rather impressive numbers for a US comic perodical and Viz just launched Shoujo Beat, so that sort of thing may do rather well after all.
Considering how popular manga is in the US at the moment, I'm confident that the barrier towards mainstream acceptance of comics has been well and fully breached. It may take a while, but the kids who are wallowing in manga today will be happy to read more mature titles as they grow older, and I'm sure someone out there will be happy to sell it to them. It'll take time, but I'm optamistic.
FnordChan
which is the exact same thing of what you did. I was just trying to point that out.Shig said:
My point was that while the superhero genre is the cornerstone of American comics, that is no different than the action movie (in whatever variation you like) being the cornerstone of American movies.. why is it? because the main market segment is 18-35 and that's what they like. Action movies and superhero comics (and GTA and Madden games). The point shouldn't be to make other types of movies more dominant and prevalant.. we will never see art house flicks outsell and outpace summer blockbusters, the same way we will never see independent dramatic comic works outsell and outpace superheroes (or similarly themed books). and arguing that that's the solution to increase comic sales is just as stupid as arguing that's the way to increase box office sales. there is PLENTY of variety out there, and what sell sells. broaden the reach of most independent comics and they will still only sell on the same typical market share. Sure you will have those occasional breakout independents, like Maus and Bine.. but you have the same breakout independents with arthouse movies.
again, this is a VERY naive way to look at it. Superhero books sell, because superhero books sell. There are one hundred plus pages of non-superhero books each month in Previews.. there is plenty of variety being made. But people want their superhero books. I know I do, and I know many others on these boards do as well. I also know that anytime you have a great movie based on a comic book (Road to Perdition, Sin City, American Splendor, Ghost World, etc), most mainstream people you talk to couldn't give two shits that the material originated in comic form and there is a comic out to read it.Shouta said:
Also look at the way books sell. Spider-man might have a dozen titles out in a month, and the main book sells around 100K. but then on months where spidey only has say half a dozen books out, the main book still sells 100K. That doesn't look like Spider-Man is being shoved down any throats. It looks like 100K people want to buy spider-man every month.
Sorry guys. If there were something there to indicate that comic readership would increase dramatically with an increase in marketing the independent works that are being made, I would agree with you. I just don't see it. Nothing indicates that, and looking at other sectors.. novels, video games, movies, music, etc, belies that theory.
And for the last time, comparing Japan and America when it comes to comic markets is just idiotic. The US comic market was effectively destroyed twice now. once in the 50's and once in the 90's. I mean killed to the point that new material was dribbling out. Japan never suffered that. Japan never suffered a demonization of comics like America did. Why do people think comics are for kids? They didn't think comics were for kids back in the 40's when Donald Duck and Action Comics routinely sold a million plus copies a month. No.. it was when Seduction of the Innocent came around and changed the public perception of comics. Japan never had to deal with something like that. The entire Japanese industry didn't virtually destroy itself overnight over the course of less than two years as one man almost singlehandedly drove many long time fans from the industry in an attempt to raise a company's worth so he could sell it for more a short time later. The two industries are night and day different. So stop acting like the Japanese publishers know something that American publishers don't. Let's not forget that when you take into account newsstand returns, Shonen Jump doesn't sell that many more comics (estimated around 175K) than just the numbers diamond reports on the top books. and that has to take into account that Shonen Jump (for the time being) is available in many more places than normal comics are.
we'll have to see.. I will say that manga, with its definite hooks into american children (and let's not kid ourselves that it is because of any other reason than pokemon), has a chance to get more american comic readers. but taking shonen jump out of the picture, which after returns doesn't do much better than today's other top comics, manga isn't much healthier than american books. look at numbers from Viz and Tokypop and there are still on average more superhero trades sold in a given month than manga.FnordChan said:
so maybe there are a bunch of kids/people who are buying manga and not american comics, but even assuming that and combining the two numbers together, you still won't come anywhere near numbers books were doing in the early 80's and early 90's, let alone 40's or 60's...
borghe said:
And here I thought that the overall popularity of Japanese pop culture, the increasing popularity of anime (particularly as a source for television animation), and the manga companies hitting the magic $10/200 pages price point might have had something to do with it as well. After all, shit tons of manga are being published and virtually none of it has much to do with Pokemon.
It doesn't already?
I dunno what percentage of Shonen Jump's sales are returns, but this is still impressive as all hell, especially considering that absolutely phenomenal sales for a single issue of a US comic book would be, oh, 200,000 copies or so, and that's for a comic that's 1/3 the price. Besides, I'm sure Viz would rather have returns from the newsstands than be languishing in the direct market or on the few spinner racks left.
"Like Full Metal Alchemist Vol. 1, Fruits Basket Vol. 9 has now spent four consecutive weeks atop the BookScan list of graphic novels sold in bookstores, barely nosing out another Tokyopop title, D.N.Angel Vol. 8, for the top spot for the week ending June 19th. Dark Horse/Digital Manga's Vampire Hunter D moved up to #4 in its second week in the top ten and Viz had six of the first ten titles, led by Rurouni Kenshin Vol. 15 at #3, followed by Full Metal Alchemist Vol. 1 at #5, Bleach Vol. 7 at #6, YuYu Hakusho Vol. 7 at #7, Dragon Ball Z Vol. 20 at #8, and Hana Kimi Vol. 6 at #9."
That's part of ICv2's weekly analysis of the Bookscan numbers. Now, those are analyzing bookstore sales rather than Diamond's list of direct market sales (where manga still has a respectable showing), but I believe that says more about the where the new generation of comic book buyers are getting their comics than the overall popularity of manga.
Have you been by the manga section of your local Barnes and Noble or Borders lately? It's the really big section that always has a bunch of kids browsing in it.
The early 90s speculation boom damn near destroyed what was left of the American comics market and really shouldn't be invoked as a goal to aim for.
That said, the idea is that if there are a ton of kids who are currently reading manga - certainly far more than you're going to see at the local comic book shop, which hasn't been able to really push kid-friendly titles for well over a decade - then those kids are going to grow up reading manga and, in another few years or so, are going to start looking for comics aimed for an older audience. I don't really trust any of the current major manga publishers (particularly not Tokyopop) to not fuck this up, but if they can introduce a steady flow of increasingly mature titles, we'll have a generation of young adults who look at comics as a regular part of their entertainment diet for the first time since the Seduction of the Innocent debacle laid waste to the adult American comic book market.
Viz is on the right track here. Apparently Shonen Jump sales are doing just fine, 'cause Viz is launching Shonen Jump Advanced (aimed at older readers) and Shojo Beat (aimed at female readers). This is hellaciously big news. Viz is not only aiming to get their core audience of Dragonball/Yugioh fans to make the transition to more mature comics but they're also aiming a monthly anthology at girls, who have been completely ignored by American comics for, oh, decades. If these anthologies suceed, and others follow suit (which seems likely considering that there's money to be made), we may be back to the American comic book readership levels of the 1940s sooner than you think.
FnordChan
Outcast2004
Banned
borghe said:
this is exactly the point I made by doing a comparison to the movie industry.. the 2 go hand in hand.
You have your big budget for the masses project (Blockbusters/Superhero comics)
You also have your low budget, more dramatic and emotional fare (Arthouse/Indy)
The unfortunate part Shig is this, by your way of thinking the mass market would have to completely stop buying the books THEY LIKE.
Like Borghe has said, the variety is out there.... en masse. Guess what? It doesn't sell worth a shit. I work for a comic shop I see whats ordered every week and the indy stuff garners next to no interest. Hard to be considered anything but a niche market.
I really don't think the influx of Manga style books are going to matter much at all. At this point their audience is limited. I have a feeling the whole manga fad will die off eventually.
karasu
Member
Outcast2004 said:
As someone who hates the majority of blockbuster releases, this analogy offends me. Superhero stories can be & often are every bit as poignant and engaging as their indy counterparts. Something like the X-Men's paralel with the civil rights movement for example. "Superhero" doesn't mean dumbed down kiddified action filled mind numbing mush.
Outcast2004
Banned
karasu said:
Never eluded to such. It was in reference to popularity/budget only. Had nothing to do with the content.
You want some heart wrenching spandex adventure... Identity Crisis. The issue where Boomerang and Jack Drake meet... just VERY powerful stuff. I was choked up reading that.
Shouta
Member
It's hardly naive. Superhero comics are the only genre of comics being heavily produced by the American industry. While sure, you have other non-superhero comics being produced, how many in each of the major genres are being made? How many slice of life, how many sci-fi, how many fantasy, how many romance, and etc are being made each month?. Now compare those genres with Superheroes one by one. You can't say there is any one genre that produces even a comparable amount of material.
When you break it down, the biggest difference between the two industries is the perception of comics and that's a matter of culture, not business. The business models, the strategies, and all the content can work here. We definitely know the content works since manga is so big now, it's just a matter of attracting them away from manga.
That's something Japanese publishers do know that American publishers don't, how to attract customers without trying. :lol
Bingo.
The pricepoint is still a little high for fans accustomed to Japanese prices but as the popularity keeps going up and the sales do, we might eventually even see a slight slide down to a possible 8-9 dollar/200 page price point.
Of course, there's a few wiggles to watch like oversaturation of the market which is causing a decline in sales in the Anime DVD market.
No kidding, the manga sections at all the major book retailers I've been to are massive nowadays. Even the local comic shops (the ones that are still around, bless them) have pretty damn big sections as well.
Bottom row: Hulk, Captain Marvel, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, I don't know...
Second row: WarMachine?, Venom or Spider-Man, Wolverine
Third row: Juggernaut, Superman, Spider-Man, Beast, Dr. Doom, Captain America
Top: Flash, Thing, Thor, Dr. Octopus, Joker
I have no clue who the fuck the yellow handis.
Second row: WarMachine?, Venom or Spider-Man, Wolverine
Third row: Juggernaut, Superman, Spider-Man, Beast, Dr. Doom, Captain America
Top: Flash, Thing, Thor, Dr. Octopus, Joker
I have no clue who the fuck the yellow handis.
Outcast2004 said:
It might be worth considering that, the market that those 'niche' genres would appeal to are still ignorant of not only their existence but still perceive the comic book market to be a largely adolescent male dominated media (not just in readership, but content)... that it is. Add that to the less than 'vogue' nature of reading comics (again, something seen limited to a niche market), and you can see why the stuff that might, should enjoy more success is failing dismally in the market.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Perceive? I go through this every week with the same hand of Spades, and I'm gonna call a Spade a Spade.
Fortunately it provoked some damn fine discussion. You don't know how much I appreciate Shig and yourself expanding on my tirades. I'm the battering ram - you guys do your thing when they bust the door open with my skull.
Oh crap - I'm a totally shit He-Man character.
I read plenty of comics. Just not much from Marvel or DC.
For me those character are better left at a pleasant point in time, where I enjoyed them, and not retro-fitted to accomodate a new audience or make them relevant to today's kids.
It's just a shame to see Marvel cherry picking from the indies to prop up their dying properties. :\
Outcast2004
Banned
Zaptruder said:
It might also want to be noted that the people that these niche titles would appeal to also have many other avaenues their entertainment dollar can go.
Going to the comic shop is a costly adventure anymore. 3 books and a Wizard will cost you $20 in one shot. So you have to stick with what you like and know for the most part.
Essentially we are dealing with a niche within a niche market....
The Take Out Bandit said:
The thing is that Bendis is taken from some damn fine indie properties... thsoe being Torso and Powers... they have NOTHING to do with Marvel or DC.
Why is it a shame that Marvel and DC recruit indy creators to work on their characters? Where else are they going to recruit talent? It's not like the creators are being forced. These creators are working on characters they wanted to work for. Besides, they need to make a living too. Indy work doesnt really pay the bills... hell these guys become very wealthy from Marvel and DC. In the process they also get leverage to get the stories done THEY want, therefore getting their ideas into the mainstream. Cry for them not.
Asfor the characters be retro-conned and the like; You need to do this everyone in a while. The continuities become so convoluted do to the rotating creative staffs. Besides, if you don't change and keep things fresh you won't attract new readers. Thats what it's about in the end.
I'm all for tradition, but you have to adapt with the times and keep things fresh.
my only point here, my only real point that I really don't feel is opinion (i.e. all my other points are just opinions) is that it is dumb to equate the two industries.. in other words, just because the japanese business model works as well as it does in Japan, doesn't mean that business model will translate into the same success for American companies here. I'm not saying manga won't be big or anything dumb like that. I would also like to point out that manga's success over here is ENTIRELY irrelevent, as it is not FOLLOWING the japanese model. They are essentially bringing over "safe bets". Thanks to existing sales figues from japan, heat indicies from scanlation projects online, related localized game sales, localized anime, and other things, it is a hell of a lot easier for these AMERICAN companies to bring over proiduct based on many factors they can look at. The japanese model relates to figuring out NEW projects to create for distribution in japan. The american japanese model involves figuring out with what alerady has been released, what will be popular over here. big difference. so no, the japanese model isn't working over here. the japanese model is merely being used by american companies to bring arguably americanized content over.
it should also be noted in relation to price, manga companies pay a hell of a lot less for their content than american publishers do. I read somewhere (take that for what it's worth) that it essentially costs less to bring over an entire series of manga than it does to create just 5 or 6 issues of a regular comic in terms of cost of content.
anyway, that is my only point. the two industries are incomparable. Cultural differences and acceptance, ideas and expectations, way different on many accounts. what can be done to get more readers in? eh.. we could probably argue all day long on that (oh wait, I think we have been).. but just transplanting the manga business model over here, the REAL manga business model, not what american comapnies like Viz and TokyoPop are giving to us, I really don't think is the cure all some of you think it is..
as for the lack of variety, IMHO, I call bullshit. I buy way more than my fair share of independents, particularly AiT/PlanetLar and Oni.. and getting my non-comic reading friends to read that stuff.. well, I might as well be passing around a plague infested rat... seriously, it's that bad.
like the one poster said above.. when something as brilliant as Road to Perdition is sitting in front of Barnes and Noble and not moving, I think it is real hard to argue that what's wrong with american comics is lack of variety.
it should also be noted in relation to price, manga companies pay a hell of a lot less for their content than american publishers do. I read somewhere (take that for what it's worth) that it essentially costs less to bring over an entire series of manga than it does to create just 5 or 6 issues of a regular comic in terms of cost of content.
anyway, that is my only point. the two industries are incomparable. Cultural differences and acceptance, ideas and expectations, way different on many accounts. what can be done to get more readers in? eh.. we could probably argue all day long on that (oh wait, I think we have been
).. but just transplanting the manga business model over here, the REAL manga business model, not what american comapnies like Viz and TokyoPop are giving to us, I really don't think is the cure all some of you think it is..as for the lack of variety, IMHO, I call bullshit. I buy way more than my fair share of independents, particularly AiT/PlanetLar and Oni.. and getting my non-comic reading friends to read that stuff.. well, I might as well be passing around a plague infested rat... seriously, it's that bad.
like the one poster said above.. when something as brilliant as Road to Perdition is sitting in front of Barnes and Noble and not moving, I think it is real hard to argue that what's wrong with american comics is lack of variety.
gettergooey
Member
Whoa, whoa...I'm all for intelligent, rational and insightful discussions here.
But can we go back to main intent of the thread:
==============================
LAUGH, RIDICULE AND MAKE FUN OF LIEFELD
==============================
Here's some guidance:
Is Cannonball lifting Wolvie with his man-boobs?
Oh silly Robin, you can't swing on a rope with hands clasped like that (see right panel)
Cable is a giant?!? (notice the height changes between Cable and Domino in the lower right panel)
Now pay careful attention to Hawk's costume in these 2 pages:
and
What happened to her red undies and her third pair of wings...?
Oh my bad, she has 4 pairs of wings!
I do admit though, his art is getting better. But not that much.
But can we go back to main intent of the thread:
==============================
LAUGH, RIDICULE AND MAKE FUN OF LIEFELD
==============================
Here's some guidance:
Is Cannonball lifting Wolvie with his man-boobs?
Oh silly Robin, you can't swing on a rope with hands clasped like that (see right panel)
Cable is a giant?!? (notice the height changes between Cable and Domino in the lower right panel)
Now pay careful attention to Hawk's costume in these 2 pages:
and
What happened to her red undies and her third pair of wings...?
Oh my bad, she has 4 pairs of wings!
I do admit though, his art is getting better. But not that much.
Shogmaster
Member
Laguna X said:Holy shit! Is that MAF on the far left?
It's StonedMAF©!
Which btw looks like Youngblood, which in turn looks X-Force...karasu said:
That's one of the major gripes I have with his work. All of his characters looks like characters he's done before with maybe some change to their uniforms. It's as if he just redraws the same shit over and over. Not to mention the same "Liefeld" poses.
Shouta
Member
I think the model would work here if they could get past a few of the hitches. It's a totally plausible model. Does it mean it would be an automatic success? Nah. Nothing's ever guaranteed (except taxes and death...) but it's probably the best model to get the biggest amount of success IMO. Hell, the model the American industry has right now could be easily as successful but it would need to, of course, get over the hitches. The very reason why I suggest the Japanese model is because it's been proven to work and it's always best to copy and improve something (the Japanese motto I tell you!)
I can believe that, in the overall scheme. Comics are often full color and require a lot of inking so the costs add up really fast when you're producing a large quantity of books. Most Japanese comics are done in black and white and thus are cheap to produce on the whole. The cost of actually licensing the content is actually pretty steep depending on the popularity of the series. The production costs make up for that though.
The current Viz model is pretty close to what the Japanese are doing in the overall sense. Using Jump as compilation mag and then printing out the GNs awhile after the set number of chapters has been shown (at least that's what I remember them doing, I rarely buy translated manga) is basically what the Japanese are doing, just on a smaller scale. As for Tokyopop...well, they're TokyoPop. Their release schedule can be equated to diarrhea =P.
- Status