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[Pellham]

yeah Viz rocks, more people need to support the magazines (anthologies, whatever). I was REALLY sad when Pulp ended, but eh, I'll live.

 

[Father_Brain]

In a Liefeld-bashing thread on the SA forums a few months back, some of the goons took a photo of Liefeld and his wife, and, well... here're the results.

 

[borghe]

eh.. I posted some more insightful thoughts, but it's irrelevant.. taking the thread way off...

and yeah, some of those inconsistencies are bad in those Teen Titans pics.. why the hell aren't the editors catching this stuff?? Oh, they probably are but are paying Liefeld a ridiculous page rate to do this book and don't want to have to pay him more (or delay the book) for touchups.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I read plenty of comics. Just not much from Marvel or DC.

For me those character are better left at a pleasant point in time, where I enjoyed them, and not retro-fitted to accomodate a new audience or make them relevant to today's kids.

It's just a shame to see Marvel cherry picking from the indies to prop up their dying properties. :\

Well, you don't follow the creators then. I picked up Catwoman based on recommendations and Brubaker. Unfortunately (and supporting your point) DC eventually re-mainstreamed it. But it was a sort-of "Love and Rockets with burglary" for a while, and really, really good. Like indy-good. But it didn't fit in with the shared universe thing well-- the slacker Captain Cold with some personality in that book bears no resemblence to the A-type running around in Flash.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

Why all the Rob Liefeld hate? Yeah, I'll admit he's not as good as Jim Lee or Todd McFarlane, but he's better than 80% of the artists out there today.

OT: Anyone know if Whilce Portacio is working on anything? He was one of my favorite artists back in the day.

 

[borghe]

Why all the Rob Liefeld hate? Yeah, I'll admit he's not as good as Jim Lee or Todd McFarlane, but he's better than 80% of the artists out there today.

whoa man.. 80%????????? um.. no. I would say he is better than like maybe 20% of the artists out there... maybe 20. but 80%? Not on your life. Hell, even Paul Gulacy is better, and he can't draw the same character looking the same way in two panels to save his life.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Why all the Rob Liefeld hate? Yeah, I'll admit he's not as good as Jim Lee or Todd McFarlane, but he's better than 80% of the artists out there today.

I don't think Todd MacFarlane or Jim Lee are all that hot either, although both has had his moments.

 

[Outcast2004]

I don't think Todd MacFarlane or Jim Lee are all that hot either, although both has had his moments.

Mcfarlane I can agree wih, but JIM LEE? What's wrong with you man?

I'm going to go shoot myself now.. this world's gone crazy.

 

[Shig]

The unfortunate part Shig is this, by your way of thinking the mass market would have to completely stop buying the books THEY LIKE.

Where did I say to get rid of superhero books completely? I just said they should be scaled back from the forefront a bit, they can still be the dominant genre. If DC (main label, not fringe like Vertigo or Wildstorm) would publish, hype, and promote an original, non-superhero series by a well-liked writer or artist like Warren Ellis or Ed McGuinness, it could easily pull equal or greater numbers than, say, Birds of Prey, Aquaman or a Firestorm mini-series.

Like Borghe has said, the variety is out there.... en masse. Guess what? It doesn't sell worth a shit. I work for a comic shop I see whats ordered every week and the indy stuff garners next to no interest. Hard to be considered anything but a niche market.

That's because it's put out by niche publishers on niche budgets and niche marketing.

This is where the comparison to movies falls apart. Even Universal puts out a non-"sure bet" movie like In Good Company or Cinderella Man on their main labels fairly often. Oftentimes it's a reciprocal thing, a director gives the company a hit or two on the studio's terms, so they'll let a director do something more personal and get behind it fully with their main label. The comic industry doesn't do this, though; if Ed McGuinness wants to do his own thing, no matter how much great stuff he's done for Superman & Batman, he's gotta go to a smaller subdivision or a smaller company, like Wildstorm or Image. Those companies can't allot the same amount of marketing and notoriety a main label DC book could, the results of their biggest effort would likely be equal or lesser than a comparitively small effort from DC. The afforementioned films may not earn like gangbusters, but they certainly do better than they would have on the Focus label, or at Lion's Gate, and help to build a library that appeals to a more varied audience.

 

[Outcast2004]

Where did I say to get rid of superhero books completely? I just said they should be scaled back from the forefront a bit, they can still be the dominant genre. If DC (main label, not fringe like Vertigo or Wildstorm) would publish, hype, and promote an original, non-superhero series by a well-liked writer or artist like Warren Ellis or Ed McGuinness, it could easily pull equal or greater numbers than, say, Birds of Prey, Aquaman or a Firestorm mini-series.

That's because it's put out by niche publishers on niche budgets and niche marketing.

This is where the comparison to movies falls apart. Even Universal puts out a non-"sure bet" movie like In Good Company or Cinderella Man on their main labels fairly often. Oftentimes it's a reciprocal thing, a director gives the company a hit or two on the studio's terms, so they'll let a director do something more personal and get behind it fully with their main label. The comic industry doesn't do this, though; if Ed McGuinness wants to do his own thing, no matter how much great stuff he's done for Superman & Batman, he's gotta go to a smaller subdivision or a smaller company, like Wildstorm or Image. Those companies can't allot the same amount of marketing and notoriety a main label DC book could, the results of their biggest effort would likely be equal or lesser than a comparitively small effort from DC. The afforementioned films may not earn like gangbusters, but they certainly do better than they would have on the Focus label, or at Lion's Gate, and help to build a library that appeals to a more varied audience.

But why do you keep seeing the world through blinders? If the demand were't there, neither would the books. It's pretty simple, if it doesn't sell it gets canceled.

Just because YOU don't like them, that doesn't mean the other 99.9% can't like them. It's what thhe comic buying public wants.
If the readership were there for an indy publisher someone would take notice. The money will come to you if there is a demand for it.

You CAN NOT market to the niche, you have to market to the mass market. By your reasoning every comic book publisher would be out of business within a year.

Both marvel and DC have both tried to publish stuff outside the mainstream spandex and the sales just weren't there. A company won't take a loss just apease a few people. You can only shove of the debt of say The Light Brigade onto Superman for so long before they have to cancel it.

dispute it as much as you'd like, but it is a valid comparison.

 

[borghe]

If DC (main label, not fringe like Vertigo or Wildstorm) would publish, hype, and promote an original, non-superhero series by a well-liked writer

Fallen Angel

'nuff said

edit - and the "non-vertigo/wildstorm" condition is bullshit also. tons of great books that did shit numbers. Sleeper, we3, Fables, Y, War Stories, etc. These books at every place you go to are mixed right in with the DC titles. This isn't Oni or Drawn and Quarterly.. these books are place dirght next to Superman and Batman.. and they still sell for shit. And Fallen Angel WAS a DC book. No imprint. and it still sold so poorly (despite being acclaimed EVERY SINGLE MONTH by reviewers and fans alike) that David now is moving it to a "niche" publisher just to keep it alive.

 

[Shig]

If the readership were there for an indy publisher someone would take notice. The money will come to you if there is a demand for it.

I'm not really talking about indies. I'm just talking about a more varied subject matter for mainstream books. Imagine if DC put out the equivalent of the Cliffhanger line (with more punctual artists, hopefully) on their main label and with marketing behind it akin to an Infinite Crisis or even a Seven Soldiers... It'd do quite well, no doubt about it.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

MacFarlane, and his best, was very creative withing the Superhero mold. He redefined the look for Spider-Man, something not done since John Romita Sr. More of a stylist than a solid artist, but at one time willing to experiment, to good effect. Unfortunately, that's about the extent of his talent.

Jim Lee-- I want to like him more. He's good. He's far better at the nuts and bolts that Todd or Rob, by a mile. At his best, he's very enjoyable. But there's something artificial about his art that keeps it from being great. His figures all look three dimensional and are proportioned right and everything, but then tend to look like they have no weight. Like Superman is made out of paper mache. He also lacks range.

Don't get me wrong, if Jim Lee took over any number of books I read, it would be an improvement. And he's the best of the Image 7 by a mile. But he's not up there with the great artists, IMHO.

 

[karasu]

I'm not really talking about indies. I'm just talking about a more varied subject matter for mainstream books. Imagine if DC put out the equivalent of the Cliffhanger line (with more punctual artists, hopefully) on their main label and with marketing behind it akin to an Infinite Crisis or even a Seven Soldiers... It'd do quite well, no doubt about it.

I doubt it would. The mainstream audience has no reason to read comics like Road to Perdition or other non superhero comics when that type of subject is constantly covered in movies, tv, and novels. Superhero books are what's unique to the comic world, that's why they sell so well. To add another movie analogy, it's like Jackie Chan making more mainstream dramas or romance comedies, it wouldn't sell. The audience already gets that from Russell Crowe and Tom Hanks. They go to Jackle because of what's unique to Jackie, if he tried to give them nothing but more of what they already have in spades, it's doom. Indy comics with more slice of life storylines are best suited for people who simply love the medium. If you don't love comics as an artform, you'll just get your slice of life storylines from John Grisham and Hollywood.

 

[borghe]

Jim Lee-- I want to like him more. He's good. He's far better at the nuts and bolts that Todd or Rob, by a mile. At his best, he's very enjoyable. But there's something artificial about his art that keeps it from being great. His figures all look three dimensional and are proportioned right and everything, but then tend to look like they have no weight. Like Superman is made out of paper mache. He also lacks range.

IMHO one of the best assesments of Lee's work.. the guy is a solid comic book artist.. actually one of the best comic book artists.. but it is always comic book work. everything is laid out and has the dimensionality of a comic book panel.. if he would just work more to try and make each panel more of a snapshot of a moment in life, instead of trying to make the coolest batman panel ever created, it could turn him into one of the greatest artists the medium has ever seen (well, he already is, but even more so).

of course maybe he can and just doesn't want to. his stuff certainly isn't bad by any stretch. but he definitely draws for the panels. just once I would like to see him take more of an Alex Ross approach to his work (though even Alex Ross is too much Alex Ross sometimes).

To add another movie analogy, it's like Jackie Chan making more mainstream dramas or romance comedies, it wouldn't sell. The audience already gets that from Russell Crowe and Tom Hanks. They go to Jackle because of what's unique to Jackie, if he tried to give them nothing but more of what they already have in spades, it's doom.

or like dating games in america. girls don't want to play dating or romance games. they would rather read about them in novels or see them on tv or in the movies. now sure women who like video games might like playing a dating sim or romance sim, but a girl who DOESN'T like video games probably won't pick one up just because it is a dating sim.

it's actually like me and sci-fi.. I love sci-fi. love movies, TV, video games, comics.. all kinds of sci-fi stories. but I hate reading sci-fi in novels. HATE IT. hate the clunkiness of trying to describe the 1000th literary version of the hyperdrive, the 10000th literary version of the databank, etc. it bores me to tears. and I love reading. love reading mysteries, espionage, war books.. but sci-fi.. uggh..

it isn't jsut about the content that someone would love. it has to be about the right content for the right medium. I really think karasu is on to something here. you could put pride and prejudice into comic form, but that doesn't mean pride and prejudice's fans are going to enjoy reading it like that.

 

[Shig]

I doubt it would. The mainstream audience has no reason to read comics like Road to Perdition or other non superhero comics when that type of subject is constantly covered in movies, tv, and novels. Superhero books are what's unique to the comic world, that's why they sell so well. To add another movie analogy, it's like Jackie Chan making more mainstream dramas or romance comedies, it wouldn't sell. The audience already gets that from Russell Crowe and Tom Hanks. They go to Jackle because of what's unique to Jackie, if he tried to give them nothing but more of what they already have in spades, it's doom. Indy comics with more slice of life storylines are best suited for people who simply love the medium. If you don't love comics as an artform, you'll just get your slice of life storylines from John Grisham and Hollywood.

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT STUFF LIKE THAT.

I mentioned Cliffhanger as the precedent, for god's sakes. Not friggin' romantic comedy or multilayered gangland drama there, it's still stuff of the same sensationalistic ilk as most superhero fare. Just without the capes.

 

[borghe]

Fallen Angel had no capes