Support NeoGAF

[ymmv]

A few questions,

How suitable is it for children ? I have took my son the cinema to see quite a few films ie Iron man, Transformers 1 & 2, any reason why this is any more adult?

On the 3-d, is it worth going to watch it on a 3-d imax screen over a standard 3-d screen. There are standard 3'ds near me, but the closest imax is around an hours car journey.

If you already take your son to see movies like Iron Man and Transformers, Avatar will be just fine. He'll probably love the movie. I think Avatar will be a defining movie experience just like Star Wars was more than 30 years ago.

I saw Avatar twice in RealD and loved it. The 3D was excellent, sharp image too. Couldn't be better. I haven't yet experienced Imax 3D.

 

[StuBurns]

Of couse, I don't believe in mystic gods and Magic.

I don't know if this is serious, but if it is, why does this matter? I don't either. I don't believe in killer robots traveling thru time to murder people either, I still love T2.

 

[avatar299]

see, this reply means you're not just simply stating your opinion, but craving attention.

I posted that at 2 in the fucking morning. If you want to read a more indepth review of why this movie sucks, wait a few hours.

Until then I have to finish an animation shot and sleep

 

[avatar299]

I don't know if this is serious, but if it is, why does this matter? I don't either. I don't believe in killer robots traveling thru time to murder people either, I still love T2.

Difference is T2 didn't try to convey a message that robots from the future will save us.

Avatar wore many themes and messages about enviromental and foreign policy on it's sleeve. In many ways this movie felt like it was written in 2004

 

[StuBurns]

Avatar wore many themes and messages about enviromental and foreign policy on it's sleeve. In many ways this movie felt like it was written in 2004

The actual script probably was written around 2005.

 

[Veidt]

Watched Titanic. I never finished watching it before.

It really is a damn good romantic story. And the music. The theme is amazing.

 

[avatar299]

The actual script probably was written around 2005.

Yeah that sounds about right, though I could have swore avatar had been in production before 2005

Then again, Cameron sounds like the type if guy who would start a project based off a few ideas, and let the script come later.

 

[StuBurns]

Yeah that sounds about right, though I could have swore avatar had been in production before 2005

Then again, Cameron sounds like the type if guy who would start a project based off a few ideas, and let the script come later.

Well there's a very detailed scriptment from the mid-nineties. But he hadn't started writing the script until Fox gave him the demo production money. It could have been going by '04.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

Yeah, I have an MA in English. I've covered The Iliad, The Odyssey, Aeneid, Orlando Furioso, Paradise Lost, and a few others. Try popping that epic format into today's marketplace and see if it sells. It's a thing of the past-- entertains audiences in historical hindsight due to its cultural reflections rather than mature entertainment value.

Yeah. These movies are nothing like the epic tales of the past. And no one seemed to like these at all. (Turns off sarcasm button).

The fact that they were like the epics of the past is what made them connect with people on such an emotional level.

 

[Gav]

Going for the 2nd time to a RealD showing tonight. Very excited again!

Went with my mate opening night, who was as excited as me. Going with my girlfriend tonight who is insisting she wont enjoy it... im sure she will though!

 

[JGS]

Of couse, I don't believe in mystic gods and Magic.

There were no mystic gods or magic in the movie.

They gave a better scientific reason for the goings on in Pandora than I've ever heard regarding time travel, the force, beam me up, hyperspace, or laser guns.

 

[StuBurns]

There were no mystic gods or magic in the movie.

They gave a better scientific reason for the goings on in Pandora than I've ever heard regarding time travel, the force, beam me up, hyperspace, or laser guns.

Spoiler

When a Na'vi dies, their spirit remains with the planet's tree infrastructure, that's straight up mysticism.

Not that it bothers me at all.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

watched this yesterday in 3d - class a popcorn movie and awsome 3d effects (well it was my first 3d movie)... not a minute of boring stuff - really good!

but man my head hurt the whole time...

and wow at the people thinking that cameron tried to make a statement with this movie... dont overthink it, its entertainment!
the story is pretty flat and linear - but damn its a good ride!

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

watched this yesterday in 3d - class a popcorn movie and awsome 3d effects (well it was my first 3d movie)... not a minute of boring stuff - really good!

but man my head hurt the whole time...

and wow at the people thinking that cameron tried to make a statement with this movie... dont overthink it, its entertainment!
the story is pretty flat and linear - but damn its a good ride!

Of course he tried to make a statement. Just look at the movie and Cameron's past history and it's pretty obvious.

 

[StuBurns]

Of course he tried to make a statement. Just look at the movie and Cameron's past history and it's pretty obvious.

I agree, The Abyss has the same 'message', and that's even less subtle (well depending on which cut you watch).

 

[Cartman86]

Spoiler

When a Na'vi dies, their spirit remains with the planet's tree infrastructure, that's straight up mysticism.

Not that it bothers me at all.

Spoiler

I don't know I read it as it being possible that their consciousness or memories (as the scientists said) were now a part of the tree. It's still biological in this, as Cameron admits, fantasy world. Ultimately it worked for me as it was still a very human message. It's obvious allegory after all. Just take our world with its interconnected ecosystems and push it to the literal extreme. I had no problem with it and i'm a hardcore atheist and rationalist. Just give me a human and anti-hate message and i'm all for it. Even if God exists in a movie as long as the humans are ultimately the providers of morality then it's real to me. Because really that's what real life is.

 

[Solo]

No, Cameron has recently said Battle Angel probably isn't going to happen NEXT. He's still done at least a year of pre on Battle Angel and loves it, he just doesn't want to jump into another 4 year production right away. He said The Dive is most likely going to be his next film, which should probably take 18 months or so from beginning to end of production.

The exact quote I heard was "Im not even sure Im going to do that film". Not "Im not going to do that film NEXT".

a couple of my favorite shots in the movie:

Spoiler

- the opening of the bioluminescent forest (the glowing flower petals)
- the guy getting crushed by the explosive barrel crates
- wide shot of Quaritich vs. Trudy fighting between floating mountains
- wide shot climbing up the floating mountains to get to Banshee area
- the three of them in "prison" with Jake's head down
- The shot when they go to the clan of the eastern sea and you can see the ocean behind them. Wish they explored those areas more.

and a million more....what about you?

Best scene in the movie was after Jake got his banshee and was flying it for the first time, and Neytiri joined him. Nailed the feeling of unbridaled joy and awe so well. I had a smile on my face the whole time. Brought out the inner child in me.

The last hour is spent on huge, Michael-Bay-esque explosions and incomprehensible battle sequences. It's nothing but a display of graphical advancement

I can only conclude from this that you have no appreciation for the construction of action scenes. To compare Cameron to Bay is to compare Mozart to Linkin Park. Cameron has forgotten more about framing, spatial dynamics, pacing and tone that Bay will ever know.

 

[Cartman86]

Of course he tried to make a statement. Just look at the movie and Cameron's past history and it's pretty obvious.

Yeah he says very explicitly in interviews that there is a message, but he makes movies for the mainstream and wanted people who couldn't agree with the message (or see it) to still come away highly entertained. Cameron talks about his environmentalist stance as well. He was a child of 60's so it makes sense. I've heard him talk about how his documentaries about the ocean have fueled his disgust with the coral reefs dieing from global warming.

the slashfilmcast has an interview that goes over this stuff.

 

[Solo]

All the Oscar buzz seems to have died down now that everyone has seen it and the RT/Metacritic score has deflated.

...

The RT meter has INCREASED over the weekend and WOM is fantastic...

I would love to have seen what all the reactions over the weekend would have been if the 3D component were entirely removed from this film, and if it had just been released as a standard, 2D live-action/CG-hybrid.

My reaction wouldnt be any different. The art direction/CG quality > 3D.

 

[Cartman86]

Guess Im a dissenter. Just saw this
movie and uh....yeah it fucking sucked. The first half was so boring I dozed off at times.

It's beauty was only captivating for so long before the cliches and plot holes became to big a problem. The music was uninspiring, much of the dialogue was boring and really corny, few of the characters really popped out as being interesting and the message was really over the top to the point where it just became a running joke. By the end I was hoping

Spoiler

the army would just wipe these people out so we can move past this moronic idea that primitive mysticism is better than science, capatalism and technology

Dissapointed
Edit: Saw it in 3D and it was fine.

Spoiler

Anti-science? - The movie made it a point to try and make the Navi spirituality actually based on scientific evidence. A fantasy movie attempted to do this and you still complain? The scientists in the film never suddenly became religious or some stupid shit. They never once assumed that the tree was a real god.

Capatalism? - Yeah if it's greedy fucks harming other people for their own pocketbooks.

Technology - Technology is great. It helps the world, but human beings are fragile, and can use it for evil. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

In the end this is one of the key elements in every story ever told. There is a reason for that. The darkness of man haunts us all. And no matter what we create we have the risk of using it for evil. If you have a problem with a movie being cynical toward the human condition then your going to have a hard time finding the real world to be any different as the universe doesn't give a shit what happens to anyone. If only we had a sentient tree that loves us all, but at least we have each other right?

 

[Deleted member 30609]

wow! I went in a cynic, and came out totally blown away.

absolutely fantastic, shouldn't have doubted Cameron

 

[StuBurns]

Cameron isn't 'anti-technology', people always claim that. His films often focus people's misuse of technology, how they can't always be trusted. Cameron is clearly very much in love with technology, his film productions alone stand as great evidence for that. In fact there's a parallel in that all his personal adventures are only possible because of advanced submergence devices, cutting edge exploration equipment, and in turn his films are always using cutting edge film technology to allow the audience to see something extraordinary.

 

[rhino4evr]

Tickets booked for IMAX on 30th. Too long to wait

my tickets are booked for Jan 2nd!! I have to wait even longer!! UGH!

So after seeing this (and other nominated films) do you guys think it actually has a chance in winning best picture at the Globes? What about best director? I don't need to ask whether or not it will win a best effects Oscar...there probably shouldnt even be a category this year...

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I've always disliked taking destructive human nature to the extreme by portraying them as psychotic "demons" (as the Na'vi called them) in these sorts of movies. I like to think by 2154 we'd have a better appreciation for nature especially considering the unavoidable effects of global warming in the present day.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Much like Wall-E, I think that sometimes the super-blatant messages aren't really the point of the production.

The concept in Avatar is simple. Aliens invade planet (in this case, represented by humans), one learns the way of the natives and so on and so forth.

The way I interpret it is that the representation of humans in the film aren't even us, but they are human-enough for us to relate to the right characters. They're just a narrative device. And I'm okay with that, because it allowed for some really great moments throughout.

It's not always about pushing an agenda, sometimes it can just be about delivering an experience. Avatar delivered one hell of an experience.

 

[StuBurns]

I've always disliked taking destructive human nature to the extreme by portraying them as psychotic "demons" (as the Na'vi called them) in these sorts of movies. I like to think by 2154 we'd have a better appreciation for nature especially considering the unavoidable effects of global warming in the present day.

Avatars are called 'demons', the humans are just called 'Sky People'.

 

[rhino4evr]

spoilers abound in this thread..I guess I should expect that considering most of you have seen it. I'll be leaving now. See you in a few weeks to give my comments.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Avatars are called 'demons', the humans are just called 'Sky People'.

Demons inside a false body is what one of the Na'vi called Humans who were operating an Avatar.

 

[StuBurns]

Demons inside a false body is what one of the Na'vi called Humans who were operating an Avatar.

But they never refer to the humans directly as demons. They say the 'demons' aren't allowed in Hometree, but considering they call humans sky people and aliens, it implied, to me at least, that a 'demon' is an Avatar. And I think that makes more sense.

 

[SketchTheArtist]

Demons inside a false body is what one of the Na'vi called Humans who were operating an Avatar.

They're referred to as 'DreamWalkers' also.

 

[Zeliard]

Demons inside a false body is what one of the Na'vi called Humans who were operating an Avatar.

From their point of view, essentially true.

 

[ShinAmano]

Movie was fantastic. 3D was far more advanced then I could have imagined (I have not seen a 3D movie in many years).

I will probably make a return showing over the Christmas break.

 

[npm0925]

The way I interpret it is that the representation of humans in the film aren't even us, but they are human-enough for us to relate to the right characters. They're just a narrative device. And I'm okay with that, because it allowed for some really great moments throughout.

Or an accurate representation of unscrupulous corporate culture. Like Cyberdine Systems who discovers the remains of a terminator robot in the 1980s and secretly uses it to develop weapons systems. Or the company in Aliens who betrays their employees by using them as incubators for parasitic aliens.

 

[Solo]

Demons inside a false body is what one of the Na'vi called Humans who were operating an Avatar.

Dont they call them Dreamwalkers?

Seeing this a second time tonight. Cant wait!

 

[gdt]

Dont they call them Dreamwalkers?

Seeing this a second time tonight. Cant wait!

You motherfucker.

I think I'll have to wait to the weekend.

 

[Zeliard]

Dont they call them Dreamwalkers?

Seeing this a second time tonight. Cant wait!

I think I am too.

And I'm glad I missed that poor man's troll who came in here trying to say that Michael Bay does action better than James Cameron. Jesus.

 

[Solo]

You motherfucker.

I think I'll have to wait to the weekend.

Ive been thinking about it almost non-stop since seeing it opening day. HAD to see it again ASAP.

I think I am too.

And I'm glad I missed that poor man's troll who came in here trying to say that Michael Bay does action better than James Cameron. Jesus.

It hurt my soul.

 

[avatar299]

Spoiler

Anti-science? - The movie made it a point to try and make the Navi spirituality actually based on scientific evidence. A fantasy movie attempted to do this and you still complain? The scientists in the film never suddenly became religious or some stupid shit. They never once assumed that the tree was a real god.

Capatalism? - Yeah if it's greedy fucks harming other people for their own pocketbooks.

Technology - Technology is great. It helps the world, but human beings are fragile, and can use it for evil. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

In the end this is one of the key elements in every story ever told. There is a reason for that. The darkness of man haunts us all. And no matter what we create we have the risk of using it for evil. If you have a problem with a movie being cynical toward the human condition then your going to have a hard time finding the real world to be any different as the universe doesn't give a shit what happens to anyone. If only we had a sentient tree that loves us all, but at least we have each other right?

Spoiler

Yeah it was very much anti-science. The Navi weren't scientific or even had a real understanding of the processes that gave them what they had. They approached everything with a childish naivete, and we are just supposed to be okay with that. Not only okay with it, but moved by it. Why? What is pure or better about anything they do? No reasons yet the human scenes are considerably darker and dearier than the navi scenes. Sucks to be human with our lack of connection to mother earth and reliance on science.

It reminds of the Disney movie, Pocahontas where the girl makes a plea to John Smith to understand the color of the wind, as if there is some pure essence in just forgoing science and focusing solely on what is around you.

Also i found the whole scientific explanation for their god or whatever to be pretty out there. It was nothing but an excuse to open a door into the possibility that a "miracle" or act of god will occur during the final fight. If you pay attention to that scene, the animals charging and stuff should have been obvious.

It comments on capatalism are incredibly moronic, so it hits the usual bar for hollywood logic. They move to a new planet to mine a mineral that is valuable.....oh and it will save a dying planet. Lets ignore that until the epilogue. That's not a reason why this company exists. it's solely becuase of greed.

They make another comment about shareholders valuing money over lives.....at the same time telling us the reason why Avatars are so desperately needed is communicate with the navi and ignore bloodshed as to avoid a PR problem so clearly the shareholders and their consumers are worried about things other than just profit while their planet is dying. They tried to shoehorn typical "buisness is bad" rainforest cliches into some military complex that just doesn't work. Why would they hire mercenaries up the ass to get rid of the navi when doing so would trigger, literally a world war and potentially destroy the resources they are looking for?

All for greed.
These black and white characters can work with singular people or even groups, but when you try to condemn an entire system, you have to be a little nuanced.

In the world of Pandora technology is not great. In this world technology falls to bows and arrows. In this world technology makes you weaker, a less skilled fighter or less adept pilot. Despite that making no sense at any point in the movie it's always there.

 

[JGS]

Spoiler

When a Na'vi dies, their spirit remains with the planet's tree infrastructure, that's straight up mysticism.

Not that it bothers me at all.

I don't think so.

Spoiler

It was explained by Grace & Neytiri that everything is connected. When she died, even Grace was simply being uploaded into the tree which is why she wasn't physically strong enough for the transport.

The entire planet was explained as a big brain and the memories of the dead were simply being added to it. This is also why Neytiri said that the tree doesn't take sides, just provides balance. She was wrong because Pandora as a whole was in trouble so the planet responded.

I'm not saying the Na'vi weren't religious (which would explain why Neytiri was wrong about her beliefs as Pandora had never been in this kind of trouble before), but the responses were scientific (in theory). The chants were simply a way for the Na'vi to focus their energies on transferring memories from one body to the next.

I think of it as the organic/biological version of the Matrix.

 

[jax (old)]

Guess Im a dissenter. Just saw this
movie and uh....yeah it fucking sucked. The first half was so boring I dozed off at times.

It's beauty was only captivating for so long before the cliches and plot holes became to big a problem. The music was uninspiring, much of the dialogue was boring and really corny, few of the characters really popped out as being interesting and the message was really over the top to the point where it just became a running joke. By the end I was hoping

Spoiler

the army would just wipe these people out so we can move past this moronic idea that primitive mysticism is better than science, capatalism and technology

Dissapointed
Edit: Saw it in 3D and it was fine.

sucks to be you.

 

[JGS]

Spoiler

Yeah it was very much anti-science. The Navi weren't scientific or even had a real understanding of the processes that gave them what they had. They approached everything with a childish naivete, and we are just supposed to be okay with that. Not only okay with it, but moved by it. Why? What is pure or better about anything they do? No reasons yet the human scenes are considerably darker and dearier than the navi scenes. Sucks to be human with our lack of connection to mother earth and reliance on science.

It reminds of the Disney movie, Pocahontas where the girl makes a plea to John Smith to understand the color of the wind, as if there is some pure essence in just forgoing science and focusing solely on what is around you.

Also i found the whole scientific explanation for their god or whatever to be pretty out there. It was nothing but an excuse to open a door into the possibility that a "miracle" or act of god will occur during the final fight. If you pay attention to that scene, the animals charging and stuff should have been obvious.

It comments on capatalism are incredibly moronic, so it hits the usual bar for hollywood logic. They move to a new planet to mine a mineral that is valuable.....oh and it will save a dying planet. Lets ignore that until the epilogue. That's not a reason why this company exists. it's solely becuase of greed.

They make another comment about shareholders valuing money over lives.....at the same time telling us the reason why Avatars are so desperately needed is communicate with the navi and ignore bloodshed as to avoid a PR problem so clearly the shareholders and their consumers are worried about things other than just profit while their planet is dying. They tried to shoehorn typical "buisness is bad" rainforest cliches into some military complex that just doesn't work. Why would they hire mercenaries up the ass to get rid of the navi when doing so would trigger, literally a world war and potentially destroy the resources they are looking for?

All for greed.
These black and white characters can work with singular people or even groups, but when you try to condemn an entire system, you have to be a little nuanced.

In the world of Pandora technology is not great. In this world technology falls to bows and arrows. In this world technology makes you weaker, a less skilled fighter or less adept pilot. Despite that making no sense at any point in the movie it's always there.

The Na'vi didn't have to be scientific to be pro-science. Cavemen weren't scientific either, but that didn't mean science didn't affect them.

If anything they were anti-technology which is not even close to the same thing.

 

[Zeliard]

Yeah, the movie pretty unambiguously establishes that it isn't all spiritual, mystical mumbo-jumbo, but something quite tangible. At one point one of the human characters (Jake?) says something to the effect of "holy shit, Eywa is actually real". And then you see direct evidence of it, in more than one way.

 

[StuBurns]

I don't think so.

Spoiler

It was explained by Grace & Neytiri that everything is connected. When she died, even Grace was simply being uploaded into the tree which is why she wasn't physically strong enough for the transport.

The entire planet was explained as a big brain and the memories of the dead were simply being added to it. This is also why Neytiri said that the tree doesn't take sides, just provides balance. She was wrong because Pandora as a whole was in trouble so the planet responded.

I'm not saying the Na'vi weren't religious (which would explain why Neytiri was wrong about her beliefs as Pandora had never been in this kind of trouble before), but the responses were scientific (in theory). The chants were simply a way for the Na'vi to focus their energies on transferring memories from one body to the next.

I think of it as the organic/biological version of the Matrix.

And in science, consciousness exists within the bonds in the brain, so assuming there is anything even similar, which I don't think is a huge leap considering the fact human DNA can be combined with theirs, once the bonds lose charge, the consciousness is gone. It's as mystical as anything I've ever seen really. If someone could provide some sort of mega loose pseudo-scientific explanation for God, it doesn't stop it being mystical.

 

[Cathcart]

Technology - Technology is great. It helps the world, but human beings are fragile, and can use it for evil. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Nah, the movie was clearly anti-technology. You know how much everyone hated the most advanced piece of technology in the entire movie? I forget what it was called but I'm pretty sure the movie was named after it and it allowed the entire story to even happen. This movie hates technology and science.

 

[ShinAmano]

I just read some of the spoiled text above...and saw the word epilogue...was there additional scenes after the credits?

 

[Solo]

I just read some of the spoiled text above...and saw the word epilogue...was there additional scenes after the credits?

No additional scenes.

 

[jey_16]

i actually wanted the humans to win

 

[Deleted member 30609]

i actually wanted the humans to win

I just -- I don't -- I... I don't -- what

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Spoiler

Yeah it was very much anti-science. The Navi weren't scientific or even had a real understanding of the processes that gave them what they had. They approached everything with a childish naivete, and we are just supposed to be okay with that. Not only okay with it, but moved by it. Why? What is pure or better about anything they do? No reasons yet the human scenes are considerably darker and dearier than the navi scenes. Sucks to be human with our lack of connection to mother earth and reliance on science.

It reminds of the Disney movie, Pocahontas where the girl makes a plea to John Smith to understand the color of the wind, as if there is some pure essence in just forgoing science and focusing solely on what is around you.

Also i found the whole scientific explanation for their god or whatever to be pretty out there. It was nothing but an excuse to open a door into the possibility that a "miracle" or act of god will occur during the final fight. If you pay attention to that scene, the animals charging and stuff should have been obvious.

It comments on capatalism are incredibly moronic, so it hits the usual bar for hollywood logic. They move to a new planet to mine a mineral that is valuable.....oh and it will save a dying planet. Lets ignore that until the epilogue. That's not a reason why this company exists. it's solely becuase of greed.

They make another comment about shareholders valuing money over lives.....at the same time telling us the reason why Avatars are so desperately needed is communicate with the navi and ignore bloodshed as to avoid a PR problem so clearly the shareholders and their consumers are worried about things other than just profit while their planet is dying. They tried to shoehorn typical "buisness is bad" rainforest cliches into some military complex that just doesn't work. Why would they hire mercenaries up the ass to get rid of the navi when doing so would trigger, literally a world war and potentially destroy the resources they are looking for?

All for greed.
These black and white characters can work with singular people or even groups, but when you try to condemn an entire system, you have to be a little nuanced.

In the world of Pandora technology is not great. In this world technology falls to bows and arrows. In this world technology makes you weaker, a less skilled fighter or less adept pilot. Despite that making no sense at any point in the movie it's always there.

It's shame on these humans to be so careless and incurious of the world around them. They treat Pandora like it is Earth, when clearly there are powerful, alien forces around them, forces they don't understand and perhaps refuse to understand. It's not an indictment of technology, it's an indictment of our attitude toward it. We should respect the Navi because they are self aware, not because they're primitive.

I'm afraid you missed the point entirely.

 

[avatar299]

The Na'vi didn't have to be scientific to be pro-science. Cavemen weren't scientific either, but that didn't mean science didn't affect them.

If anything they were anti-technology which is not even close to the same thing.

But cavemen were scientific. They experimented to learn new ways to do things, whether it be fish or hunt or whatever.

Never saw that from the Navi. They seem to be perfectly content with the status quo because their god gave them everything.