DrROBschiz
Member
14nm is a stretch unless they are way ahead of the game
not impossible just inprobable at this stage
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
RUMOR: NX more powerful than PS4, Splatoon/Mario Maker ports in development
- Thread starter Spyder_Monkey
- Start date
- Status
14nm is a stretch unless they are way ahead of the game
not impossible just inprobable at this stage
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Well the Wii U is dead as in they cease production this year, those games tend to have long legs, they might as well port them if for nothing else than the continued health of those games.
Schnozberry
Member
AMD is several generations of hardware removed from the PS4 in terms of CPU and GPU on 28nm right now. 14nm would be ideal, but not required to get better performance than PS4.
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
And less than 14 days until Nintendo's FY 2015 Fiscal Year Earnings Release/News conference. Briefing tentatively scheduled for April 28.
Davey Cakes
Member
The wait for a new 2D Mario, maybe.
I consider that a good thing. SMM is a pretty good way for people to play with their imaginations in the context of classic and new Mario games. Even as someone who loved NSMBU, I think 2D Mario is otherwise stale and needs a really fresh take for its next generation. It can wait.
Wouldn't mind a new 3D Mario within the next year or two though. There's less fatigue in that series.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
I get it.
DrROBschiz
Member
Naw they have to
WiiU sold too poorly and these games are too big in potential and persistent appeal to leave behind
Thats way too much investment and money left on the table
TheAngryMonkey
Member
I find it hard to believe 720p/1080i sets outnumber 1080p sets, just curious where you get that number from. I'm also not entirely convinced broadcasters use 720p because it is "the majority of the market."
Literally one of the biggest bullet points of the Wii-U that fans kept hammering on pre-release was that it was going to be so damn easy for it to get ports because of it's modern architecture. That too was based on tons of rumor and speculation at that time.
So why are we starting this cycle anew? Porting is never going to be a click of the button. Not then, not now.
ViolentP
Member
How can you be so sure?
Frankly, these seem like positive technologies. The likes of which I am not used to from a Nintendo console. I hope it's true. I'm just waiting for the news that all this tech has to be worn like pants.
I don't know what I want out of a new Nintendo console.
Maybe they could do like a shitty old rock band thing where they go "back to basics"
like "we're so tired of all the overproduction, here's a box that plays third party games and also Nintendo games and the controller's basically a Dualshock."
can't say I expect that at all though.
Maybe they could do like a shitty old rock band thing where they go "back to basics"
like "we're so tired of all the overproduction, here's a box that plays third party games and also Nintendo games and the controller's basically a Dualshock."
can't say I expect that at all though.
I mean we can all just assume that the console is gonna be terribad and spout some doom and gloom. That's the easiest thing we can do and just have this thread closed right now since nintendo will never learn because they're so insular in their japanese ideas.
But where's the fun in that?
FiveMinuteHero
Member
I will only buy an NX the day they release Animal Crossing NX. Wii U was a huge disappointment in that regard for me.
Well, apparently i didn't do too bad.
Schnozberry
Member
The Wii U launch situation was historically bad. Rumors point to Nintendo learning from this, which is a positive sign. We've heard from third parties and Nintendo themselves over the past few years that the tool chain for the Wii U wasn't mature enough to get peak performance from the system until over a year after launch. Prior to launch there were no manuals in languages other than Japanese.
You'd have to try pretty hard to screw things up worse.
Possumowner
Member
Rösti;200872566 said:
Hmm very interesting, I didn't realise it was so soon.
I hope they give details of some sort on NX...I'm starving for official confirmation
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
This is my dream scenario though I'm not expecting it nor do I think it's necessarily best for business.
James Scott
Banned
Handhelds are still the biggest market for Mh, especially in Japan. If they can release MH5 on the new portable and an HD version with cross play I think that would probably work out best for what they're trying to do
For people theorising that Nintendo may release their Wii U games in 4K on NX, keep in mind that it's not simply a matter of whether the GPU had the raw computational grunt necessary. In fact, if the OP is correct then the ALU performance (i.e. Gflops) shouldn't be an issue for 4K Wii U remasters. What would be a major bottleneck, though, is memory bandwidth. The considerable majority of memory bandwidth in a console is consumed by framebuffer accesses, so if you increase the size of your framebuffer four-fold, you'll want to have close to four times the memory bandwidth available to accommodate it.
The Wii U's eDRAM pool, which developers use to store the framebuffer, reportedly has 70GB/s of bandwidth. So, for Smash Bros, which runs at 1080p/60fps, you would have to assume that that 70GB/s is pretty much fully saturated, as the game's pushing twice as many pixels as most Wii U titles. Hence, if Nintendo wanted to release a 4K version of Smash Bros on NX, they'd want to ensure they had at least four times the framebuffer bandwidth the Wii U had, 280GB/s, plus enough bandwidth for non-framebuffer memory access (i.e. texture reads, etc.). For reference, that's more bandwidth than a GTX 980.
Now, modern AMD GPUs (from GCN 1.2 onwards) have color buffer compression, which provides for more efficient bandwidth usage than Wii U would have had. They claim a 40% overall reduction in bandwidth usage, so you'd be looking at 168GB/s plus non-buffer accesses, so probably over 200GB/s in all. That's quite a big jump over PS4 (which has about 140GB/s usable bandwidth), but just about doable with GDDR5X, if Nintendo want to spend the money on it.
Smash Bros would be the least of Nintendo's worries, though. Almost all of their other games (Mario Kart 8, Splatoon, Mario 3D World, etc.) are rendered at 720p, and assuming any of them comes close to saturating Wii U's 70GB/s of eDRAM bandwidth (not impossible with deferred shading used in a number of those games), then the bandwidth required to run them at 4K starts to become a bit ridiculous. Nintendo would need 378GB/s of framebuffer bandwidth (taking into account color buffer compression and not including non-buffer memory access) to be comfortably able to run these games at 4K.
Now, from a purely theoretical perspective, that's not actually impossible for a late 2016 console to achieve. Either 4096-bit HBM or 384-bit GDDR5X would be able to achieve the necessary bandwidth, both of which would be available to Nintendo within the necessary timeframe. Nintendo have spent money on exotic memory before (1T-SRAM, eDRAM, FCRAM, etc.), so maybe they decide they want to go with HBM for NX, but in order to spend the money on HBM they'd have to spend less on other components, most notably the SoC containing the CPU & GPU. Effectively, Nintendo would have to design a console that is less capable at 1080p in order to accommodate a small number of 4K games.
Given that Nintendo's most successful recent console was a bet against higher resolutions, it would be bizarre for them to suddenly decide that their best course of action is to go gung-ho into the world of 4K. Now, it's not impossible that a small number of 2D or indie games may be able to run at 4K on NX, a PS4-level machine would certainly be able to accommodate that (in fact I'd be confident in saying that Rayman Legends probably would have run at 4K on PS4 had Sony allowed games to output at that resolution), but Wii U games in 4K are an exceedingly unlikely proposition.
The Wii U's eDRAM pool, which developers use to store the framebuffer, reportedly has 70GB/s of bandwidth. So, for Smash Bros, which runs at 1080p/60fps, you would have to assume that that 70GB/s is pretty much fully saturated, as the game's pushing twice as many pixels as most Wii U titles. Hence, if Nintendo wanted to release a 4K version of Smash Bros on NX, they'd want to ensure they had at least four times the framebuffer bandwidth the Wii U had, 280GB/s, plus enough bandwidth for non-framebuffer memory access (i.e. texture reads, etc.). For reference, that's more bandwidth than a GTX 980.
Now, modern AMD GPUs (from GCN 1.2 onwards) have color buffer compression, which provides for more efficient bandwidth usage than Wii U would have had. They claim a 40% overall reduction in bandwidth usage, so you'd be looking at 168GB/s plus non-buffer accesses, so probably over 200GB/s in all. That's quite a big jump over PS4 (which has about 140GB/s usable bandwidth), but just about doable with GDDR5X, if Nintendo want to spend the money on it.
Smash Bros would be the least of Nintendo's worries, though. Almost all of their other games (Mario Kart 8, Splatoon, Mario 3D World, etc.) are rendered at 720p, and assuming any of them comes close to saturating Wii U's 70GB/s of eDRAM bandwidth (not impossible with deferred shading used in a number of those games), then the bandwidth required to run them at 4K starts to become a bit ridiculous. Nintendo would need 378GB/s of framebuffer bandwidth (taking into account color buffer compression and not including non-buffer memory access) to be comfortably able to run these games at 4K.
Now, from a purely theoretical perspective, that's not actually impossible for a late 2016 console to achieve. Either 4096-bit HBM or 384-bit GDDR5X would be able to achieve the necessary bandwidth, both of which would be available to Nintendo within the necessary timeframe. Nintendo have spent money on exotic memory before (1T-SRAM, eDRAM, FCRAM, etc.), so maybe they decide they want to go with HBM for NX, but in order to spend the money on HBM they'd have to spend less on other components, most notably the SoC containing the CPU & GPU. Effectively, Nintendo would have to design a console that is less capable at 1080p in order to accommodate a small number of 4K games.
Given that Nintendo's most successful recent console was a bet against higher resolutions, it would be bizarre for them to suddenly decide that their best course of action is to go gung-ho into the world of 4K. Now, it's not impossible that a small number of 2D or indie games may be able to run at 4K on NX, a PS4-level machine would certainly be able to accommodate that (in fact I'd be confident in saying that Rayman Legends probably would have run at 4K on PS4 had Sony allowed games to output at that resolution), but Wii U games in 4K are an exceedingly unlikely proposition.
Internal telemetry I had access to where it was something like 60% of our users were on 720p. the last 40% was split between 480p, 1080i, and 1080p, in that order of size.
Heck, i can even show you the Steam stats:
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey
1080p at 33%. Every resolution above 1080p barely adds up to a couple %.
edit: I'm not saying 1080p isn't increasing and gaining a majority, but it's not the runaway favorite at the moment either. Broadcasters are generally a fairly good litmus test of market adoption of display tech, historically, and sports are the main drivers of new TVs.
Thats why Nintendo needs to attract more than the hardcore Nintendo fans. They keep making systems that people would only buy for their games, but if they create an ecosystem that is attractive to a wider audience they can possibly get other types of games to sell decently. Thehardcore fans are never going to buy the 3rd party games so theres no point in relying on them
Kimishima: challenge accepted
This would be an ideal thing for me but I feel Nintendo might double-down on the controller from the Wii-U and just refine the tech. I would much rather see them drop all the Wii waggle controllers, sensor bars etc and start fresh.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
I think that would be for the best. Gimmicks and the like are great and all, but it's basically like taking a massive gamble, your better off spreading those out with more safe iternations of simply what the consumer expects, because by their very nature their rare and the one thing Nintendo has done a poor job of gaining mindshare and a significant loyal fanbase within the console segment.
Were you around for the Wii-U speculation threads? Because the parallels are unbelievable.
Storm Raider
Banned
Sony and Microsoft in shambles if true
GustyGardens
Banned
Sounds good! I mentioned in the other thread, but this is well in line with what most of the internet has heard and thinks about the system. Whatever this thing is, I can't wait to see it!
They actually aren't anymore (and never were really, as they started at completely different levels and points of expectation with WUST coming off of the massive successes of the Wii and sky-high expectations thereafter, and the NX... not at all being any of those things) because the WiiU was unraveling by this point, with information on RAM, CPU, and even GPU were starting to get thrown into question from unbelievable highs.
In this scenario we started with unbelievable lows (with most expecting X1 performance levels from early rumors), and more and more rumors point to a scenario that isn't "EA has sent back their dev kits, lol".
Also an appeal to tradition is a waste of our time.
At this rate Nintendo are better off playing it safe and seeing where the VR hype ends up. IN a few years when the VR market might be flourishing, then they can step in but if it all falls flat, they have really not invested a huge amount of time and money into it.
I think the difference is that Wii was a monster success and Wii U is a failure.
ViolentP
Member
I'm always wary of that number. It just seems, off. I don't know if it's due to many people not opting in to the hardware survey or if they simply aren't aware of resolution functions, but that number for some odd reason seems low.
Why would they be in shambles?
SumptuousLemur
Banned
If we seriously have to rebuy these remasters of Wii U games we bought over the past 1-2 years Nintendo has no fucking clue.
James Scott
Banned
On the "suicidal" post:
The dev teams that only have experience with 3DS games can stick to making NX handheld games and up porting them to the console.
That's how they handle budgets and all that
The dev teams that only have experience with 3DS games can stick to making NX handheld games and up porting them to the console.
That's how they handle budgets and all that
Dark Cloud
Member
Actually, there are no parallels from what I recall.
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
Nothing yet.
Badlucktroll
Gold Member
Day 1 If Zelda U and and a New Super Mario bros NX game are launch titles. And probably also call of duty ghosts 2 (?)
Just wanted to put up the links to some of the patents I was mentioning, including the amiibo directional ones mentioned later:
Updated Wii controller patent - Claims section brings up newly added touch-sensitive panel information
Tablet connectivity patent 1
Tablet connectivity patent 2
amiibo positioning patent 1
amiibo positioning patent 2
And I know patents only mean so much, but these ones continue to interest me.
Nice guesses! I think they are certainly aiming for some "solid" moves just to strengthen and solidify some things (like the cloud saves). I also am thinking the free-form display(s) relate more to UI things then just staring down and playing the game on your controller (however neat that may make the hardware look...and they may do this for the supposed handheld iteration/version). They can also really make the whole "touchscreen button" thing work seamlessly if done right and placed correctly. The Wii U Pro controller with additional UI things would be really cool though!
Why would Capcom have any interest in bringing MH to consoles when they are making more and more money on handhelds, also Japan
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Yeah everything points to them sitting that market out (like nintendo does with most things) and honestly they'd be right to do so. It's a very expensive and risky adventure that's already expensive. better off waiting a few years seeing how it ends up and then releasing an optional VR headset next gen.
They don't have much to gain jump right in and a lot to lose.
LegendofLex
Member
I'm going to be very unhappy if they don't refresh the branding and presentation for 2D Mario.
Whether that means sprites or a new 2.5D style that doesn't feel cheap compared to the 3D games, I dunno yet.
You don't? Buy the new games. Plenty of people never got a Wii U and would like to try them out though.
They were until we started getting hardware leaks, like CPU/GPU. Then some of us began to worry.
Yup, the only reason you HAVE to buy them again is if you either never want to play your wii u versions again or you think the upgrade is worth it. If you never want to use your wii u version again... sell it?
God, yes. Let the 'new' super mario die. That was of the Wii/DS era and they dragged them kicking and screaming through the U/3DS era. NSMBU/LuigiU were good games, but I feel like they could have been better w/ a different 'style.'
Kimishima said:
http://time.com/4131306/nintendo-kimishima-interview/
You would think NX being more powerful than PS4 its not that weird when you are moving away from platforms like Wii and Wii U.
I'm willing to be corrected on this, but I don't think there's any internal division within Nintendo between "handheld teams" and "console teams". The team that made Mario Kart 8 was the same as the team that made MK7, the team that made Super Mario 3D World and Captain Toad was the same as the team that made 3D Land, etc.
- Status