Support NeoGAF

[MadeInBeats]

So you agree that Watch_Dogs is just scratching the surface or not? The winks are confusing me.

To say Watch_Dogs and 1313 are scratching the surface is to say they look a bit shit, instead of cutting edge, no.. bleeding edge... which they don't, and which, they are.

'Scratching the surface', I would say, is a monstrously, gargantuan, jumbo sized fanboi fictional, fantastical stretching of the possibilities.

 

[jaypah]

I think the point is right now we barely know what the WiiU is capable of doing much less the other two systems.

The only real certainty is that regardless of what all three consoles will be able to do none will match what my (or any other high end) PC is capable of doing.

Nintendo, Sony and MS need to show me games I can't play on my PC. Nintendo's done a good enough job of that so far to get me to preorder so the ball's in Sony and MS's court now.

I hear ya. Sony I'm not worried about, they give me lots of exclusive entertainment. MS....I want to believe they are quiet and staffing up for a reason but we'll see. I'm sure they'll have something cool. This is all for my personal interest, the masses will buy them regardless because "DAMN DUDE, YOU SEEN THAT NEW MADDEN? FUCKING SICK!". I wonder when EA will return Madden to the PC? They are leaving money on the table.

In any event I think it'll be a closer race this time around as far as 3rd parties are concerned. Wii U should be able to get a lot of downports if the publishers aren't dumb enough to turn down free money.

To say Watch_Dogs and 1313 are scratching the surface is to say they look a bit shit, instead of cutting edge, no.. bleeding edge... which they don't, and which, they are.

'Scratching the surface', I would say, is a monstrously, gargantuan, jumbo sized fanboi fictional, fantastical stretching of the possibilities.

K.

 

[AzaK]

If WD and 1313 are next gen targeted, then clearly they are early specimens and improvement is likely, nay certainly, possible.

If you dispute that possibility, then you might as well apply the same logic to early Wii U games (which I'm sure you dont want to do).

So games made on tech that developers are very comfortable with can get better, but Wii U games can't?

 

[lwilliams3]

To say Watch_Dogs and 1313 are scratching the surface is to say they look a bit shit, instead of cutting edge, no.. bleeding edge... which they don't, and which, they are.

'Scratching the surface', I would say, is a monstrously, gargantuan, jumbo sized fanboi fictional, fantastical stretching of the possibilities.

Yes..the issue with Watch Dogs and stating that the game is only scratching the surface of next-gen is that the demo wasn't even done on a console. It was running on powerful PC hardware that no console may not surpass this generation.

 

[Pineconn]

Fuck 1080p at 60fps. Give me 60p at 1080fps.

ubi pls

 

[MadeInBeats]

So games made on tech that developers are very comfortable with can get better, but Wii U games can't?

These are SpecialDude policies mate, read bloody small print.

Yes..the issue with Watch Dogs and stating that the game is only scratching the surface of next-gen is that the demo wasn't even done on a console. It was running on powerful PC hardware that no console may not surpass this generation.

But what if the PS4/Xoop are beast machines

Spoiler

from the future ?

 

[jaypah]

Yes..the issue with Watch Dogs and stating that the game is only scratching the surface of next-gen is that the demo wasn't even done on a console. It was running on powerful PC hardware that no console may not surpass this generation.

Hmm. It's crazy to think of a generation peaking at launch. Interesting thought though.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Hmm. It's crazy to think of a generation peaking at launch. Interesting thought though.

Well we had these arguments at Wii launch too and in all honesty I really can't say that Wii games released now (the few that do) look better than they did in 2006.

I did believe at one point that Nintendo would spec the hell out of the WiiU (or as much as they could afford to) to avoid the really terrible mistake that they made with the Wii that I don't really hear much talk about. With the Wii Nintendo made a system so weak compared to tech available at the time that it became the first home console in history that was emulated during its generation.

Let's think about this; it wasn't bad enough that your console could be hacked in less than ten minutes by the average seven-year-old so you compound this issue by having the first console in history where you could pirate its day one games without the need of even owning the console O_O

It seems that Nintendo may have instead opted to go this second screen route to combat this issue but I would imagine that talented hackers will find a way around that too if the demand is there and the Wii U specs allow it to happen.

 

[Pineconn]

Well we had these arguments at Wii launch too and in all honesty I really can't say that Wii games released now (the few that do) look better than they did in 2006.

I agree. However, the Wii is really a GameCube 1.5 in terms of architecture, and thus Nintendo probably knew all the secrets to pumping out as much performance as possible. The Wii U is something vastly different, so it might take a few waves of games to get that top-notch optimization.

Mind you, I don't know crap.

 

[BlankaBR]

I just tried the Wii U at Gamestop.
Rayman looks beautiful, fun to play also!
Controller feels good and has a nice grip
Console is ugly, Im surprised how small it is, not much bigger than the Wii.

 

[lwilliams3]

Hmm. It's crazy to think of a generation peaking at launch. Interesting thought though.

It is not about the generation "peaking." It is that high-end PCs have already surpassed the power levels of what next gen consoles can affordably do in raw power. Consoles has the advantage of a closed-box environment and having some special features that mainstream PCs may not have, though, so nextgen consoles (including the Wii 7) has unknown potential atm.

 

[jaypah]

I just tried the Wii U at Gamestop.
Rayman looks beautiful, fun to play also!
Controller feels good and has a nice grip
Console is ugly, Im surprised how small it is, not much bigger than the Wii.

I want to go and try it out but there's nothing like feeling that controller for the first time fresh out the box. Even more so with this particular controller.

It is not about the generation "peaking." It is that high-end PCs have already surpassed the power levels of what next gen consoles can affordably do in raw power. Consoles has the advantage of a closed-box environment and having some special features that mainstream PCs may not have, though, so nextgen consoles has unknown potential atm.

Well yeah, I already know all of that. I'm just saying that if W_D is bleeding edge for PC, and PC is already ahead of what next Gen consoles can be (power wise) and W_D is a launch window title then the thought of next Gen peaking at launch is interesting. Mind you I'm of the opinion that games will eventually look better than W_D next Gen.

 

[Saint Gregory]

I agree. However, the Wii is really a GameCube 1.5 in terms of architecture, and thus Nintendo probably knew all the secrets to pumping out as much performance as possible. The Wii U is something vastly different, so it might take a few waves of games to get that top-notch optimization.

Mind you, I don't know crap.

Sure, I don't expect a repeat of what happened with the Wii but anything is possible at his point.

I would imagine that we'd be hearing a lot more negtive buzz than the few misquotes that keep getting regurgitated by the usual suspects if things were anywhere near as bad as the Wii.

BTW, it seems a little bait-and-switchish to me to have Rayman Legends in the demo kiosks when it doesn't even have a firm launch date :/

 

[jaypah]

Sure, I don't expect a repeat of what happened with the Wii but anything is possible at his point.

I would imagine that we'd be hearing a lot more negtive buzz than the few misquotes that keep getting regurgitated by the usual suspects if things were anywhere near as bad as the Wii.

BTW, it seems a little bait-and-switchish to me to have Rayman Legends in the demo kiosks when it doesn't even have a firm launch date :/

I think there was some 11th hour shit going on with that game. It seems very last minute to have that game in the demo units. I guess they pushed it back at the last minute and the demo kiosks were already done.

 

[MadeInBeats]

Hmm. It's crazy to think of a generation peaking at launch. Interesting thought though.

I agree, it's like unwrapping your present before Christmas, or pulling the stripper who just give you a private dance (yeah, like I'd know what that's like!)

I agree. However, the Wii is really a GameCube 1.5 in terms of architecture, and thus Nintendo probably knew all the secrets to pumping out as much performance as possible. The Wii U is something vastly different, so it might take a few waves of games to get that top-notch optimization.

Mind you, I don't know crap.

Depending on what lessons Nintendo has learnt and how much they initially lose on launch on the Wii U, I predict the Wii U2 to be a Wii U.5

 

[D.Lo]

Well we had these arguments at Wii launch too and in all honesty I really can't say that Wii games released now (the few that do) look better than they did in 2006.

Opinions etc, but Galaxy 2 would have blown minds in 2006.

With the Wii Nintendo made a system so weak compared to tech available at the time that it became the first home console in history that was emulated during its generation.

So unbelievably wrong. N64 and PS1 were both near perfectly emulated during their generations. Way better than Wii is even now. You could emulate PS1 ON DREAMCAST.

 

[Saint Gregory]

So unbelievably wrong. N64 and PS1 were both near perfectly emulated during their generations. Way better than Wii is even now. You could emulate PS1 ON DREAMCAST.

Really? I didn't think that either of those emulators were stable until after their generations were over. I didn't consider the PS1 to DC emulator since the DC was the start of that next gen but you could be right on all counts.

I don't remember anyone saying it was possible to play N64 and PS1 games as the games were released though.

 

[big_erk]

Fuck 1080p at 60fps. Give me 60p at 1080fps.

ubi pls

That would be awesome!

 

[specialguy]

Yes..the issue with Watch Dogs and stating that the game is only scratching the surface of next-gen is that the demo wasn't even done on a console. It was running on powerful PC hardware that no console may not surpass this generation.

But we all know a given console hardware spec can far exceed that same spec in PC due to optimization for fixed hardware.

That's why PS3/360 games with 2005 PC specs still look good today.

A pathetic HD7770 literally blows away whats in PS360 in every tech spec.

 

[Saint Gregory]

But we all know a given console hardware spec can far exceed that same spec in PC due to optimization for fixed hardware.

That's why PS3/360 games with 2005 PC specs still look good today.

A pathetic HD7770 literally blows away whats in PS360 in every tech spec.

First party games, sure. But show us a multiplatform PS3/360/PC game where the PC version isn't the superior version.

 

[specialguy]

First party games, sure. But show us a multiplatform PS3/360/PC game where the PC version isn't the superior version.

i never said pc version wasn't superior.

 

[Turrican3]

Fuck 1080p at 60fps. Give me 60p at 1080fps.

Lazy developers, as usual

Spoiler

 

[lwilliams3]

But we all know a given console hardware spec can far exceed that same spec in PC due to optimization for fixed hardware.

That's why PS3/360 games with 2005 PC specs still look good today.

A pathetic HD7770 literally blows away whats in PS360 in every tech spec.

Yeah, I acknowledged that in a latter post.

 

[lwilliams3]

Well we had these arguments at Wii launch too and in all honesty I really can't say that Wii games released now (the few that do) look better than they did in 2006.

I did believe at one point that Nintendo would spec the hell out of the WiiU (or as much as they could afford to) to avoid the really terrible mistake that they made with the Wii that I don't really hear much talk about. With the Wii Nintendo made a system so weak compared to tech available at the time that it became the first home console in history that was emulated during its generation.

Let's think about this; it wasn't bad enough that your console could be hacked in less than ten minutes by the average seven-year-old so you compound this issue by having the first console in history where you could pirate its day one games without the need of even owning the console O_O

It seems that Nintendo may have instead opted to go this second screen route to combat this issue but I would imagine that talented hackers will find a way around that too if the demand is there and the Wii U specs allow it to happen.

The piracy issue with Wii will not be repeated anyway, as most of the issues you mentioned was due to Nintendo's decision to use slightly upgraded guts from the Gamecube as the main parts for the system. Hackers were a bit familiar with that artitecture by the time the Wii came out. Even with the Wii U's CPU rumor, alot of modifications had to be done to upgrade Broadway to a higher-clock and Multi-core.

 

[JordanN]

Depending on what lessons Nintendo has learnt and how much they initially lose on launch on the Wii U, I predict the Wii U2 to be a Wii U.5

In 2018? I don't know, what would be the point?

It also wont help that UHD will have taken off by then.

 

[MadeInBeats]

In 2018? I don't know, what would be the point?

It also wont help that UHD will have taken off by then.

Same as the Wii? A good way to print money.

They seem to know what they're doing next already. Someone from Nintendo has already said their next console will be truly revolutionary, whatever that means. Don't ask me for links, you'll have to Google them for yourself.

 

[frankie_baby]

It also wont help that UHD will have taken off by then.

Yeah right

 

[BlockheadBrown]

I'm no Wii U defender, but no console ever comes close to tapping it's potential on launch day.

See that shot above. That's the 360 version of Call of Duty 2. It was the "best looking" version of the game according to many critics/fans.

Now look at a more recent game. Would you think it was the same hardware if you saw these shots in 2005?

The bottom two look like bullshots to me.

 

[Saint Gregory]

i never said pc version wasn't superior.

Then that's why 3rd party multiplat games shouldn't be used as a benchmark for what next gen consoles are capable of doing. Until we see what Sony and MS first parties are working on (which I'm sure will be very impressive) it doesn't make sense to bring up 1313 and WD as examples of next gen development. We'll likely always be seeing the PC version of these games going foward in trade shows like E3.

In the same vein we can't make a good judgement of what the WiiU is capable of because we haven't seen anything yet from Nintendo's high level devs. They're obviously holding back media of their games for a reason. It could be because they don't look impressive compared to what we've seen in next gen demos or it could be that they don't want to show their hand prior to E3 '13.

The piracy issue with Wii will not be repeated anyway, as most of the issues you mentioned was due to Nintendo's decision to use slightly upgraded guts from the Gamecube as the main parts for the system. Hackers were a bit familiar with that artitecture by the time the Wii came out. Even with the Wii U's CPU rumor, alot of modifications had to be done to upgrade Broadway to a higher-clock and Multi-core.

Yes, I forgot that a big part of the reason Wii emulation got up so fast was that it's the exact same emulator used for GC with tweaks.

 

[jaypah]

Yup it's even named dolphin! Also I don't think Nintendo is hiding their higher level (graphically) games because of how they'll stack up to the next Gen tech demos, I think they know there's no reason to show them just yet. Wii U will be selling out for a bit so might as well save those big guns for a media blitz when they actually need it. No need to bust out a P-Wing for 1-1!

 

[JordanN]

Same as the Wii? A good way to print money.

They seem to know what they're doing next already. Someone from Nintendo has already said their next console will be truly revolutionary, whatever that means. Don't ask me for links, you'll have to Google them for yourself.

Even with the Wii, it wasn't necessary. Recycling last gen architecture burned bridges with third parties and gamers when, they could of still gone with an architecture that was up to date (i.e shaders and HD) but not very powerful.

Now, in 2018, we should be seeing another big shift in TV resolution and game technology. The least Nintendo could do is take whatever low end 2018 PC equivalent and rework it for the successor.

Yeah right

Testing for UHD has already begun and it's planned to go mainstream before 2020.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Yup it's even named dolphin! Also I don't think Nintendo is hiding their higher level (graphically) games because of how they'll stack up to the next Gen tech demos, I think they know there's no reason to show them just yet. Wii U will be selling out for a bit so might as well save those big guns for a media blitz when they actually need it. No need to bust out a P-Wing for 1-1!

Usually at launch of a new console they'd roll out at least one big gun though.

There could be a lot of reasons why they chose to launch now without any real graphical showcase games but I doubt that it's just a case of Nintendo thinking that they don't need one yet.

There were (unsubstantiated) rumors that Nintendo pulled something at the last minute from their E3 presentation which is why they ended up having that god awful 20 minute Batman demo.

 

[MadeInBeats]

Even with the Wii, it wasn't necessary. Recycling last gen architecture burned bridges with third parties and gamers when, they could of still gone with an architecture that was up to date (i.e shaders and HD) but not very powerful.

Now, in 2018, we should be seeing another big shift in TV resolution and game technology. The least Nintendo could do is take whatever low end 2018 PC equivalent and rework it for the successor.

Like I said, depends on what lessons they learnt from the Wii.

Testing for UHD has already begun and it's planned to go mainstream before 2020.

2018 is pushing it then.

 

[specialguy]

Then that's why 3rd party multiplat games shouldn't be used as a benchmark for what next gen consoles are capable of doing. Until we see what Sony and MS first parties are working on (which I'm sure will be very impressive) it doesn't make sense to bring up 1313 and WD as examples of next gen development. We'll likely always be seeing the PC version of these games going foward in trade shows like E3.

Well they are all we have currently. Anyway we are not disagreeing.

I do not think exclusive games look THAT much better than top multiplatforms on todays consoles anyway. The difference is going to be 10 or 20% tops (and when we're arguing about completely nebulous next gen games (meaning the next time we see Watch Dogs it might look vastly different for better or worse), that difference isn't worth accounting). Heck I still think Crysis 2 is probably my pick for best looking game of the gen. It's at least up there.

My point is I disagree a multiplatform title wont provide a reasonable indication of next gen capabilities simply because it is multiplatform.

 

[AzaK]

Usually at launch of a new console they'd roll out at least one big gun though.

There could be a lot of reasons why they chose to launch now without any real graphical showcase games but I doubt that it's just a case of Nintendo thinking that they don't need one yet.

There were (unsubstantiated) rumors that Nintendo pulled something at the last minute from their E3 presentation which is why they ended up having that god awful 20 minute Batman demo.

They have a pretty solid line up of core third party games. Having their own graphical/core/mature showcase would steal focus away from them and they really are trying to get third party support this time it seems.

 

[jaypah]

Usually at launch of a new console they'd roll out at least one big gun though.

There could be a lot of reasons why they chose to launch now without any real graphical showcase games but I doubt that it's just a case of Nintendo thinking that they don't need one yet.

There were (unsubstantiated) rumors that Nintendo pulled something at the last minute from their E3 presentation which is why they ended up having that god awful 20 minute Batman demo.

Well they have a healthy amount of games but if I had to choose I'd say they were thinking Mario+COD=Ballin' until they have to show more. Though I also remember that E3 rumor (Retro?) so who knows?

 

[Neo C.]

Depending on what lessons Nintendo has learnt and how much they initially lose on launch on the Wii U, I predict the Wii U2 to be a Wii U.5

In 2017/18, a Durango x2 would be cheaper to produce than a Wii U x 1.5.

 

[frankie_baby]

Even with the Wii, it wasn't necessary. Recycling last gen architecture burned bridges with third parties and gamers when, they could of still gone with an architecture that was up to date (i.e shaders and HD) but not very powerful.

Now, in 2018, we should be seeing another big shift in TV resolution and game technology. The least Nintendo could do is take whatever low end 2018 PC equivalent and rework it for the successor.


Testing for UHD has already begun and it's planned to go mainstream before 2020.

Just because it may be available doesn't mean it'll be taking off by then

 

[Ramma2]

Checked out the demo unit at Gamestop as I was putting down the last bit of cash for my preorder. Tablet controller felt great, and the screen looked really good. Screen was very responsive to the touch of my finger, I was pleasantly surprised by that. My last non-capacitive experience was a DS Lite with a screen protector on it, and this was way better than that.

I'm looking forward most to playing games on the tablet, I hope that the majority of games support it!

 

[snowdog1971]

yet the internet went bonkers over watch dogs and 1313, which likely only scratch the bare minimum of what next gen can look like.

Erm...someone correct me if I'm wrong - but people went 'bonkers' over high spec PC footage, not console footage. And if you're expecting the PS4 and 720 eye candy to be anywhere near high spec PC eye candy, even from 6 months ago, you're going to be very disappointed.

You won't get that sort of eye candy quality until two or three years into the generation if at all.

 

[Aizu_Itsuko]

So games made on tech that developers are very comfortable with can get better, but Wii U games can't?

Isn't he just saying that both will get better over time? What are you arguing about?

PS4/720/Wii U games a few years down the road will look better than launch games. What's so controversial about that?

 

[BlankaBR]

Checked out the demo unit at Gamestop as I was putting down the last bit of cash for my preorder. Tablet controller felt great, and the screen looked really good. Screen was very responsive to the touch of my finger, I was pleasantly surprised by that. My last non-capacitive experience was a DS Lite with a screen protector on it, and this was way better than that.

I'm looking forward most to playing games on the tablet, I hope that the majority of games support it!

I liked a lot, the only thing i disliked is the WiiU console, its too boring, plain...if you look from a certain distance it looks just like the Wii

 

[MadeInBeats]

In 2017/18, a Durango x2 would be cheaper to produce than a Wii U x 1.5.

Why? will Foxconn have a mother and baby unit by then.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Well they are all we have currently. Anyway we are not disagreeing.

I do not think exclusive games look THAT much better than top multiplatforms on todays consoles anyway. The difference is going to be 10 or 20% tops (and when we're arguing about completely nebulous next gen games (meaning the next time we see Watch Dogs it might look vastly different for better or worse), that difference isn't worth accounting). Heck I still think Crysis 2 is probably my pick for best looking game of the gen. It's at least up there.

My point is I disagree a multiplatform title wont provide a reasonable indication of next gen capabilities simply because it is multiplatform.

Well then I misunderstood what you were trying to say earlier. I get the impression from a lot of posters looking foward to the 720/PS4 that they expect those consoles to exceed what we're seeing from next gen demos but what I'm saying is that the demos we've seen so far are PC targets. Even if the PS4/720 match the level of the current demos the PC version of those games will always look better.

So I'm not going to judge the WiiU on it's ability to get those games or if it can play those games how they compare to the PS4/720 because I will always just get the game for the PC. I want to see what Sony and MS are working on internally that I won't see on PC.

You're probably correct that the 1313 demo and WD are a reasonable indication of what to expect from the other next gen consoles but until we see that I'm not sure that it makes sense to bring them up in a spec thread as examples of just scratching the surface of next gen. There were some demos in 2005/6 that still haven't been exceeded on today's consoles or PC in games.

They have a pretty solid line up of core third party games. Having their own graphical/core/mature showcase would steal focus away from them and they really are trying to get third party support this time it seems.

Well they have a healthy amount of games but if I had to choose I'd say they were thinking Mario+COD=Ballin' until they have to show more. Though I also remember that E3 rumor (Retro?) so who knows?

It just seems a little strange. Nintendo made a big deal out of going after hardcore gamers with HD at E3 '11 so I expected at least one heavy hitting graphical first party game at launch.

Something must have changed but it could be just that none of those games are ready.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I think some people are really looking down on next gen Wii U and even more so for Sony and MS next consoles .
Games like Gears 3 , UC3 , Crysis 2 , GOW3 are what we are getting from 7 year old hardware .
Next gen we going to get games on hardware 7 -10 times more powerful and none of them going to go above 1080p and we lucky if they even do that .
So all that power for 720p again

As for Wii U i expect games to look better in about a year but that also depends on other factors than hardware .

 

[D.Lo]

Really? I didn't think that either of those emulators were stable until after their generations were over. I didn't consider the PS1 to DC emulator since the DC was the start of that next gen but you could be right on all counts.

I don't remember anyone saying it was possible to play N64 and PS1 games as the games were released though.

There was near flawless Emulation of all top N64 games in 1998. Ultra HLE I think it was called, and you didn't even need a monster computer, most basic graphics cards could do Mario and Goldeneye perfectly in 480p.

Ps1 was the same thing, on PC you could play many games in 1998. And DC wasn't fully 'next gen' it was released in 1998. You could play some PS1 games on DC via emulation early in 2000 if I recall correctly (Gran Turrismo and Metal Gear)

Really, Post 16-bit, only difficult architecture consoles (Ps2, PS3, Saturn etc) or ones not worth it because most of their games are on PC anyway (Xboxes) aren't emulated before the end of their gen. Gamecube was already pretty well emulated, so the Wii was easier than usual, but it's not unprecedented.

 

[tkscz]

I think some people are really looking down on next gen Wii U and even more so for Sony and MS next consoles .
Games like Gears 3 , UC3 , Crysis 2 , GOW3 are what we are getting from 7 year old hardware .
Next gen we going to get games on hardware 7 -10 times more powerful and none of them going to go above 1080p and we lucky if they even do that .
So all that power for 720p again

As for Wii U i expect games to look better in about a year but that also depends on other factors than hardware .

Not sure what you're trying to say.

 

[Sheroking]

The bottom two look like bullshots to me.

If they are, there not very bullshotty. That's basically how BF3 looks on the 360.

 

[tkscz]

Fuck 1080p at 60fps. Give me 60p at 1080fps.

ubi pls

Would we even be able to see that? It's too small and too fast (That's what she said ).

 

[Smurfman256]

So if people are expecting the Wii U to be the Dreamcast of generation 8, then does that make Durango the PS2 and PS4 the GameCube (in power, of course. who knows about sales. Anybody who expects such a massive leap in power as from generations 6 to 7 is out of their minds.)?