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[The Abominable Snowman]

Where as others with far more technical sounding posts sugesst the CPU isn't weak at all

If the leaks are correct, It's using cores very, very similar to the Broadway CPU in Wii, just more cores and at a faster clockspeed. It's still very archaic and weak. Capable of keeping up in the right hands in conjunction with the GPGPU, but by itself weak.

 

[KageMaru]

Where as others with far more technical sounding posts sugesst the CPU isn't weak at all

From what I'm seeing, it may be a matter of what type of performance we're looking at. It looks like the Wii-U CPU will run general purpose code much better than the Xenon or Cell, but I wonder how the floating point performance will compare. This may be one area where the CPU may lag behind. Would be interested to see more details regarding the CPU.

 

[The Boat]

If the leaks are correct, It's using cores very, very similar to the Broadway CPU in Wii, just more cores and at a faster clockspeed. It's still very archaic and weak. Capable of keeping up in the right hands in conjunction with the GPGPU, but by itself weak.

There are no rumors that tell us just how similar the CPU is to Broadway. Details and context are very important and we don't have hem.

 

[Kai Dracon]

One thing to bear in mind with the CPU is that Nintendo always designs hardware based on what their core Japanese development teams project believe will be needed to accomplish their goals. Even when Nintendo is claiming that they're pandering to 3rd parties, they never seem to break this rule.

So my thinking is that if leads in EAD are happy with the hardware, Nintendo goes with that, even if the way the CPU is balanced causes trouble for others.

 

[prag16]

Overall, the Wii U is indeed slightly more powerful than consoles released 7 years ago. Nevertheless, according to developers, it still manages to be weaker in terms of the CPU atleast.

I don't see how any of this is worth celebrating. Given how quickly technology moves, barely beating 7 year old tech and chalking that up as a job well done is kind of pathetic.

At the very least, I wish Nintendo made a system capable of graphics on par with the highest fidelty games of this past gen while managing to run them at 1080p and 60fps with 4x AA. I still don't understand how Nintendo's E3 Wii U tech demos manage to look worse than games like God of War III, Uncharted 2, or GT5, and yet still only manage to run at 720p 30 fps and with no AA. If it's the CPU that's bottlenecking the system, why in god's name didn't Nintendo opt to use a IBM Power 7 cpu instead of an overclocked three core variant of the Wii's Broadway CPU?

You're setting yourself up for MASSIVE disappointment. PS4/720 may not be able to do much more than run existing games at 1080p60 with 4xAA.

720p30 to 1080p60, all else being equal, already require 4.5x the raw power. Adding in 4xAA kicks that up to maybe 6x, give or take. That's in line with some of the PS4/720 rumors.

There are no rumors that tell us just how similar the CPU is to Broadway. Details and context are very important and we don't have hem.

This. Lots of conclusions being jumped to.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

You're setting yourself up for MASSIVE disappointment. PS4/720 may not be able to do much more than run existing games at 1080p60 with 4xAA.

720p30 to 1080p60, all else being equal, already require 4.5x the raw power. Adding in 4xAA kicks that up to maybe 6x, give or take. That's in line with some of the PS4/720 rumors.

I don't buy that. First of all, you're completely ignoring all the archetural improvements made in terms of shaders and other enhancements that make games look far more impressive.

Secondly, Epic and others have hinted or outright stated that they will be able to run their most impressive new demos on the 720/PS4. And those require power comparable to high end modern day gpus.

High end modern day gpus are around 20x more powerful than the ones found in the PS3/360. I would expect the 720/PS4 to be atleast 12x more powerful than their predecessors.

 

[antispin]

Going to revise my previous comment on price for the WiiU. I am willing to pay as much as $250 for this tech. The Gamepad looks cool, got some neat tech build-in; +50 from my earlier $199 wishprice. And I know they have been rumored but no multiple SKUs please.

 

[frankie_baby]

If the leaks are correct, It's using cores very, very similar to the Broadway CPU in Wii, just more cores and at a faster clockspeed. It's still very archaic and weak. Capable of keeping up in the right hands in conjunction with the GPGPU, but by itself weak.

There's also been suggestions that clock for clock Broadway is more capable than the cores in xenon

 

[prag16]

Look, at the very least, I wish Nintendo made a system atleast capable of graphics on par with the highest fidelty games of this past gen while managing to run them at 1080p and 60fps with 4x AA.

Nintendo's E3 Wii U tech demos manage to look worse than games like God of War III, Uncharted 2, or GT5, and yet still only manage to run at 720p 30 fps and with no AA. If it's the CPU that's bottlenecking the system, why in god's name didn't Nintendo opt to use a IBM Power 7 cpu instead of an overclocked three core variant of the Wii's Broadway CPU?

See my post above. Based on your attitude here, you are setting yourself up to be shockingly disappointed in Sony/MSFT's next-gen offerings.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Probability of getting full, detailed technical specifications: Extremely low
Probability of GAF understanding how to interpret the specs: Zero

 

[onQ123]

Look, at the very least, I wish Nintendo made a system atleast capable of graphics on par with the highest fidelty games of this past gen while managing to run them at 1080p and 60fps with 4x AA.

Nintendo's E3 Wii U tech demos manage to look worse than games like God of War III, Uncharted 2, or GT5, and yet still only manage to run at 720p 30 fps and with no AA. If it's the CPU that's bottlenecking the system, why in god's name didn't Nintendo opt to use a IBM Power 7 cpu instead of an overclocked three core variant of the Wii's Broadway CPU?

I think it's still a chance for this well not the 4X AA at 1080P but we haven't seen any games made from the ground up with the Wii U specs in mind so we can't be sure of what it can pull off when it take advantage of it's specs to the fullest.

 

[Always-honest]

How is that even possible?

It's a 2D platformer for godsake.

Maybe the game wasn't final?

 

[GoofsterStud]

My interpretations.

Wii-U games will look slightly worse than current consoles in the beginning.
Dreamcast vs PS2...etc.

Potential: Wii-U ports look worse than the 360 and PS3 do to lack of manpower and optimization.

Realistically I think we will have Nintendo do what others don't. They will match or look slightly better than the AAA games on the PS3 and Wii-U.

 

[KageMaru]

I don't buy that. First of all, you're completely ignoring all the archetural improvements made in terms of shaders and other enhancements that make games look far more impressive.

Secondly, Epic and others have hinted or outright stated that they will be able to run their most impressive new demos on the 720/PS4. And those require power comparable to high end modern day gpus.

High end modern day gpus are around 20x more powerful than the ones found in the PS3/360. I would expect the 720/PS4 to be atleast 12x more powerful than their predecessors.

Yup, you're going to be disappointed IMO.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

We still don't know anything about the CPU. What I am wondering is, if a GPU can be modified to have instructions and features that previously weren't a part of it spec, why can't the same be applied to a CPU?

I mean does "Enhanced Broadway" really just point to clockspeed and cache with multicore technology?

 

[Dorfdad]

I don't buy that. First of all, you're completely ignoring all the archetural improvements made in terms of shaders and other enhancements that make games look far more impressive.

Secondly, Epic and others have hinted or outright stated that they will be able to run their most impressive new demos on the 720/PS4. And those require power comparable to high end modern day gpus.

High end modern day gpus are around 20x more powerful than the ones found in the PS3/360. I would expect the 720/PS4 to be atleast 12x more powerful than their predecessors.

and you are doing the same with the Wii-U the technical improvements to Nintendo's internal components, We dont know what variables were changed. Plus the Wii-U is much more powerful all around comparred to the Wii..

Your also forgetting that Wii-U will be mass market console, whereas PS4 and 720 will be much more expensive.. Throughout history the BEST SPECS don't always win... Look at the last few console gens and you will see that..

 

[ozfunghi]

My interpretations.

Wii-U games will look slightly worse than current consoles in the beginning.
Dreamcast vs PS2...etc.

Potential: Wii-U ports look worse than the 360 and PS3 do to lack of manpower and optimization.

Realistically I think we will have Nintendo do what others don't. They will match or look slightly better than the AAA games on the PS3 and Wii-U.

Sure, they need over double the memory and a modern GPU two to three times as capable just to "match" the others.

 

[RooMHM]

My interpretations.

Wii-U games will look slightly worse than current consoles in the beginning.
Dreamcast vs PS2...etc.

Potential: Wii-U ports look worse than the 360 and PS3 do to lack of manpower and optimization.

Realistically I think we will have Nintendo do what others don't. They will match or look slightly better than the AAA games on the PS3 and Wii-U.

Sarcasm?

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

There's also been suggestions that clock for clock Broadway is more capable than the cores in xenon

Mitigated by the fact that architecturally its capped at a theoretical max of half the Xenon clockspeed.

 

[KageMaru]

Sure, they need over double the memory and a modern GPU two to three times as capable just to "match" the others.

Sarcasm?

It does have a more modern GPU and more memory, there's no reason why games won't look better on the Wii-U. The only question is how much better.

 

[frankie_baby]

Mitigated by the fact that architecturally its capped at a theoretical max of half the Xenon clockspeed.

Broadway may have been but we know little yet of the clock speed of "enhanced Broadway"

 

[Gravijah]

See my post above. Based on your attitude here, you are setting yourself up to be shockingly disappointed in Sony/MSFT's next-gen offerings.

maybe you're just setting yourself up to be massively surprised.

 

[M°°nblade]

Sure, they need over double the memory and a modern GPU two to three times as capable just to "match" the others.

There are two possible outcomes for this discrepance:

Either we'll see start seeing vastly superieur Wii U versions.

Either your modern GPU isn't 2 - 3 times more capable.

Based on the rumors so far, the consensus seems to be 1.5 more capable which seems in line with current PS360 ports.

 

[prag16]

maybe you're just setting yourself up to be massively surprised.

If either of them go bleeding edge, I won't be surprised so much as I'll laugh at the amount of money they will lose as a result.

 

[ozfunghi]

There are two possible outcomes for this discrepance:

Either we'll see start seeing vastly superieur Wii U versions.

Either your modern GPU isn't 2 - 3 times more capable.

Based on the rumors so far, the consensus seems to be 1.5 more capable which seems in line with current PS360 ports.

Based on rumors so far? Lol, i've been in the WiiU threads since WUST 1. What rumors might that be? GPU not only offers a series of features absent in the PS360 GPU, it also surely isn't rumored to be pushing merely 360 Gflops. Current rumors/speculation has it around 600 Gflops. (480mHZ*640alu*2). Even at only 480alu, it ends up pushing twice the Gflops of the 360.

 

[M°°nblade]

Based on rumors so far? Lol, i've been in the WiiU threats since WUST 1. What rumors might that be? GPU not only offers a series of features absent in the PS360 GPU, it also surely isn't rumored to be pushing merely 360 Gflops.

Well, this one for instance.
http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=477610

 

[frankie_baby]

If either of them go bleeding edge, I won't be surprised so much as I'll laugh at the amount of money they will lose as a result.

If Sony go bleeding edge I expect they'll be bankrupt within the next few years

 

[ozfunghi]

Well, this one for instance.
http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=477610

lol.gif

 

[blu]

I don't buy that. First of all, you're completely ignoring all the archetural improvements made in terms of shaders and other enhancements that make games look far more impressive.

Whereas WiiU is a partially-upclocked/partially-downclocked xb360?

Secondly, Epic and others have hinted or outright stated that they will be able to run their most impressive new demos on the 720/PS4. And those require power comparable to high end modern day gpus.

Sweeney stated what their Samaritan demo, as demonstrated on-stage, required and also what the (interpolated) 720p requirements would be, which people have been matching against rumored expectations of orbis/durango. Epic also said that UE4 starts to get interesting at 1+TF. That's all. Nobody said anything about 'their most impressive demos'. Feel free to show otherwise, though.

High end modern day gpus are around 20x more powerful than the ones found in the PS3/360. I would expect the 720/PS4 to be atleast 12x more powerful than their predecessors.

Yay for meaningless, arbitrary multipliers, inflated/deflated to serve people's agendas.

 

[pvpness]

If Sony go bleeding edge I expect they'll be bankrupt within the next few years

This is about the only thing I'm certain of pertaining to next generation. Hope it's not the case. I love cheap super hardware but not at the cost of losing one of the three.

 

[dacuk]

I'll wait for a DigitalFoundry hands-on disassembling review.

 

[Unknown One]

If either of them go bleeding edge, I won't be surprised so much as I'll laugh at the amount of money they will lose as a result.

I'll be laughing while enjoying great graphics.

 

[2MF]

I don't buy that. First of all, you're completely ignoring all the archetural improvements made in terms of shaders and other enhancements that make games look far more impressive.

Secondly, Epic and others have hinted or outright stated that they will be able to run their most impressive new demos on the 720/PS4. And those require power comparable to high end modern day gpus.

High end modern day gpus are around 20x more powerful than the ones found in the PS3/360. I would expect the 720/PS4 to be atleast 12x more powerful than their predecessors.

12x more powerful GPU than the 360 = 2.88 GFlops GPU = HD 7950

The TDP of that GPU is 180 W and its retail price is currently $360. I think you can see why Nintendo would never go with 12x the power.

 

[Projectjustice]

I don't buy that. First of all, you're completely ignoring all the archetural improvements made in terms of shaders and other enhancements that make games look far more impressive.

Secondly, Epic and others have hinted or outright stated that they will be able to run their most impressive new demos on the 720/PS4. And those require power comparable to high end modern day gpus.

High end modern day gpus are around 20x more powerful than the ones found in the PS3/360. I would expect the 720/PS4 to be atleast 12x more powerful than their predecessors.

You will be disappointed.

 

[Zoramon089]

I don't buy that. First of all, you're completely ignoring all the archetural improvements made in terms of shaders and other enhancements that make games look far more impressive.

Secondly, Epic and others have hinted or outright stated that they will be able to run their most impressive new demos on the 720/PS4. And those require power comparable to high end modern day gpus.

High end modern day gpus are around 20x more powerful than the ones found in the PS3/360. I would expect the 720/PS4 to be atleast 12x more powerful than their predecessors.

LOL, no they didn't. Epic has said the systems capable of running UE4 haven't been announced yet and we even got articles about them somewhat underwhelmed/pushing console devs for stronger hardware. You're going to be dissapointed if you keep those lofty dreams of the Durango/PS4 being super powered...

 

[Gunmonkey36]

This is about the only thing I'm certain of pertaining to next generation. Hope it's not the case. I love cheap super hardware but not at the cost of losing one of the three.

If Sony go bleeding edge I expect they'll be bankrupt within the next few years

So um yea about that guys...

I'm just gonna leave this here:

Sony is one of Japan's largest corporations by revenue. It had revenues of ¥6.395 trillion in 2012. It also maintains large reserves of cash, with ¥13.29 trillion on hand as of 2012. In May 2012, Sony shares were valued at about $15 billion.

I don't disagree that going bleeding edge on console tech is a bad idea, but lets not say things that make little sense.

 

[AstroNut325]

LOL, no they didn't. Epic has said the systems capable of running UE4 haven't been announced yet and we even got articles about them somewhat underwhelmed/pushing console devs for stronger hardware. You're going to be dissapointed if you keep those lofty dreams of the Durango/PS4 being super powered...

So all the technical demos and presentations thus far by Epic, Crytek, and SquareEnix are just limited to high end PCs. Yes... they designed their entire engines/solutions around hardware that complete and utterly exceeds the capabilities of the PS4/Xbox 540.

Yes... that makes complete sense.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

So all the technical demos and presentations thus far by Epic, Crytek, and SquareEnix are just limited to high end PCs. Yes... they designed their entire engines/solutions around hardware that complete and utterly exceeds the capabilities of the PS4/Xbox 540.

Yes... that makes complete sense.

SquareEnix (as well as Epic and Crytek) going PC exclusive next gen confirmed. I guess PC guys finally get their wish.

 

[AstroNut325]

SquareEnix (as well as Epic and Crytek) going PC exclusive next gen confirmed. I guess PC guys finally get their wish.

I know you're speaking in jest... but I will definitely go PC exclusive if the PS4/Xbox 540 don't come with hardware capable of running the demos showcased thus far in-game.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Sony is one of Japan's largest corporations by revenue. It had revenues of ¥6.395 trillion in 2012. It also maintains large reserves of cash, with ¥13.29 trillion on hand as of 2012. In May 2012, Sony shares were valued at about $15 billion.

Seriously, the amount of Sony bashing here is borderline ridiculous.

Going bleeding edge for them worked with the PS1 and PS2. It's very likely that if Sony left out Blu Ray which added $300+ to the cost of each PS3 at launch, the PS3 would have seen similar success despite them going bleeding edge with the cpu/gpu/ram/hdd.

And why is everyone here so concerned with whether sony's cash reserve stays at 13 trillion yen or goes up or down by a few trillion yen. Just enjoy the quality games and quality hardware they put out and stop worrying about their finances. They pay people a hell of a lot smarter and qualified than you guys to worry about their finances.

 

[z0m3le]

So um yea about that guys...

I'm just gonna leave this here:

Sony is one of Japan's largest corporations by revenue. It had revenues of ¥6.395 trillion in 2012. It also maintains large reserves of cash, with ¥13.29 trillion on hand as of 2012. In May 2012, Sony shares were valued at about $15 billion.

I don't disagree that going bleeding edge on console tech is a bad idea, but lets not say things that make little sense.

Wii U will certainly be weaker than PS4 or XB3 but it will definitely exceed current gen by a noticeable margin and likely not be exceeded by that same size margin by the rest of next gen machines. A super over powered machine from Sony is just not going to happen without the risk of Sony going under.

http://www.notenoughshaders.com/2012/09/08/the-ten-year-decline-of-sony/

Sony’s Market Cap Value on September 7th, 2012: $11.69 billion (Marketwatch/Wall Street Journal) [In may it was $21 Billion]

Sony’s total assets ($166.22 billion) to Sony’s total liabilities ($135.61 billion).
Since total assets include everything that Sony owns (cash, buildings, divisions, intellectual property, etc.)…Sony would have to sell over 80 percent of their total assets (Total Assets = Every single thing Sony owns including cash) just to pay off their total liabilities.

If you combined the June 2012 total liabilities of Microsoft ($54.91 billion), Apple ($51.15B), Google ($21.33 billion), and Electronic Arts ($2.27 Billion), that would equal to $129.66 billion in liabilities. Sony would STILL have $5.95 billion more in total liabilities than Microsoft, Apple, Google, and Electronic Arts combined. It really paints a picture of just how out of control Sony’s total liabilities have become.

 

[AzaK]

It was supposedly tossed together very quickly too, without much dev time at all. The lighting is what strikes me, and has been the one aspect of most known Wii-U games that has consistently impressed the most.

The Bird Demo was very impressive too, i'm not sure i've seen the like of it on current gen, even in tech demo's. Individual effects here and there, maybe, but all at once?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcapRBQoMWk

I've always thought people should look to that bird demo as a hint as to the Wii U's power, as opposed to the Zelda demo.

 

[Durante]

Wii U will certainly be weaker than PS4 or XB3 but it will definitely exceed current gen by a noticeable margin and likely not be exceeded by that same size margin by the rest of next gen machines.

I consider that very unlikely, unless your margin somehow has a logarithmic scale.

 

[nikatapi]

I've always thought people should look to that bird demo as a hint as to the Wii U's power, as opposed to the Zelda demo.

Indeed it is very impressive, and actually this is a less detailed version, the one that was on the show floor had some amazing effects (water drops on the rock etc) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Nsa06KRLo

 

[z0m3le]

I consider that very unlikely, unless your margin somehow has a logarithmic scale.

Basically Wii U's GPU should have nearly identical feature sets to PS4/XB3 no matter the difference in performance, also PS4's target specs (from Sony of course) put it somewhere in the 2-3X Wii U range [~600-800GFLOPs vs 1843GFLOPs] XB3 on the other hand, MS was targeting 2TBs in that leaked document, Epic said UE4 would need multiple TFLOPs of performance from the cards, then more recently said that UE4 would require 1TFLOPs+ and we then hear that EPIC is begging these guys to make more powerful boxes.

 

[CaptNfantasy]

If these specs are supposed to satisfy Nintendo's objective of re-capturing the hardcore gaming market over the next 5 to 10 years, I'd be very worried if I was them.

And I know lots of people said that about Wii, but at least it had a unique and brand new mechanic at the time.

IMO, this is not going to compete well against nextgen platforms. Flame away, I'm not a fanboy of any particular console, I have them all. I just don't see this type of spec doing well 2-3 years in to the lifespan.

Thats totally fine because nobody cares about specs, they just want fun games. No one will be talking specs when Smash Bros etc hits.

 

[Stewox]

Per nintendo's docs the GPU's API "GX2" Supports some features greater than SM 4. SM4 is just given as a point of reference. Ill post the detail later when I have the time.

and on a side note:
Wow vgleaks.com didnt even change a single word or my formatting... That part is kind of sad. I should have made something up just to make them(and who ever "shared" my discussion) look bad

That's exactly why I haven't made up any conclusions. It's been discussed and pointed out that DX stuff is just reference it's not at all same thing, not even to OpenGL because it's a custom OGL API.

I didn't mention it since nobody would GET IT.

Finally now. GET it. Some features may go ABOVE DX11 or 4.0 or whatever, some features may end up below, who knows, it's very hard to analyze this and compare if you're not an actual developer looking at the code physically.

What ninteendo meant that the GAP between WiiU and new consoles won't be as huge is that it'll be similar modern hardware, it won't be like 2006 vs 1999, it's be much more similar in tech, but we all agree it'll have less total peak performance and resources.
Games will only have less graphics than the PS4X720, simple job of settings, the ports won't need total rewrite and redo.

 

[AzaK]

Indeed it is very impressive, and actually this is a less detailed version, the one that was on the show floor had some amazing effects (water drops on the rock etc) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Nsa06KRLo

And the floor demos shows a full scene (From a different angle and position) also being rendered on the GamePad

 

[Proelite]

Wii U will certainly be weaker than PS4 or XB3 but it will definitely exceed current gen by a noticeable margin and likely not be exceeded by that same size margin by the rest of next gen machines. A super over powered machine from Sony is just not going to happen without the risk of Sony going under.

http://www.notenoughshaders.com/2012/09/08/the-ten-year-decline-of-sony/

You're going to be eating crow. I am willing to bet this at a heavy price.

 

[IdeaMan]

It's going to be interesting. Could just be a big bowser and nothing else.

Also, nothing new in this thread, and i guess i can add another line in my previous assessement of things leaked being right, about this 1gb for games.

Now we must wait for further info on the amount of ram taken by all the system services.