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[aeolist]

The games are never going to use GPGPU. I've never seen a game anywhere use GPGPU (maybe crappy Physx? Which is only visual effects anyway? ugh).

A GPU is for graphics in a game console. If it's doing something else you're doing it wrong. If you want to use GPGPU to encode a video on your PC faster, cool (and they're surprisingly ineffective even at that, offering only quite modest speedups over the CPU given their brute force). Other than that, no.

For Wii U games to look their best they'll just have to work around the (apparently) crap CPU. Luckily, this should be doable in time imo. You'd much rather have a crap CPU than a crap GPU for games.

Civ 5 uses DirectCompute to decompress textures, they even included a benchmark mode that a lot of sites use to rate new graphics cards on their compute power.

Just Cause 2 uses CUDA for its water and DoF effects.

There have also been plenty of OpenCL demos showing advanced lighting effects. For the most part there hasn't been a lot of in-game implementation of GPGPU APIs because the consoles haven't supported them and most PC games are based on console code. Wii U having it is good because the other two certainly will and the bare minimum baseline for games will include GPGPU support in all hardware.

 

[IrishNinja]

what does bom stand for again?

 

[Osiris]

the high price probably indicates its more for a replacement than utility.

That's what I expect, the high price almost guarantess there will be very few games that support 2 pads, and absolutely no games that require 2 pads.

It's availability outside of buying a system will mainly be to cover replacement in case of breakage.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Articulate the reasons for your opinion. Use numbers. Charts if necessary.

I was going to ask him to imagine he's sat down with a Cafe in front of him about to start coding his new U game; what's the first RAM related issue you run into?

Please don't tell me there are people defending 1gb of ram. It's below even the most pessimistic predictions we've had over the months. One gig is terrible. I understand you have to defend Nintendo at every turn but sometimes you have to give em shit and this is one of those times. It's not going to get the AAA third-party ports from PS4 and 720, the third party situation is going to be exactly like the Wii after PS4/720 have been out for about a year. If you're only going to be buying Nintendo exclusives, it's fine, the specs don't really matter in that case. One gig is an embarrassingly low amount of ram for a system that's supposed to last for the next 5+ years.

 

[plufim]

This thread is still going strong, despite the rumour now being proven wrong?

Oh GAF

 

[blu]

what does bom stand for again?

Bag of mana.
Biscuit of misanthropy.
Bill of materials

Your choice.

 

[aeolist]

Apparently Battlefield 3, Dirt 3, and Metro 2033 also all use DirectCompute-based lighting effects like ambient occlusion

 

[Lupin the Third]

Please don't tell me there are people defending 1gb of ram. It's below even the most pessimistic predictions we've had over the months. One gig is terrible. I understand you have to defend Nintendo at every turn but sometimes you have to give em **** and this is one of those times. It's not going to get the AAA third-party ports from PS4 and 720, the third party situation is going to be exactly like the Wii after PS4/720 have been out for about a year. If you're only going to be buying Nintendo exclusives, it's fine, the specs don't really matter in that case.

If they removed the GamePad from the system price (assuming $250 for a Basic Set), you realize it would sell for like $100-125, right? They can only do so much with that console and keep it affordable. For its price point and inclusions, 1GB for games is perfectly reasonable.

 

[Thraktor]

That's what I expect, the high price almost guarantess there will be very few games that support 2 pads, and absolutely no games that require 2 pads.

It's availability outside of buying a system will mainly be to cover replacement in case of breakage.

The fact that they're selling it at retail from launch means we're going to see launch games which use two pads. Madden is the obvious example, and I'd expect a demo of that later on today. That said, I'm a little surprised that they aren't packing a game in with the extra controller, Wii Play style, to make it seem better value.

 

[hachi]

I'd imagine the philosophy is that when your friends come over they would bring their own (if needed)

the high price probably indicates its more for a replacement than utility.

Exactly; and I still have my doubts that it will even be available standalone on store shelves. Nintendo might just expect you to order a gamepad replacement online when needed.

 

[Charoncaori]

That's what I expect, the high price almost guarantess there will be very few games that support 2 pads, and absolutely no games that require 2 pads.

It's availability outside of buying a system will mainly be to cover replacement in case of breakage.

Watch, there will be one first-party game in 5 years that will have AMAZING dual-pad multiplayer and will be the most amazing thing you've ever seen, and will almost completely justify buying that extra pad you never used 3 years ago.

Also Monster Hunter.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Please don't tell me there are people defending 1gb of ram. It's below even the most pessimistic predictions we've had over the months. One gig is terrible. I understand you have to defend Nintendo at every turn but sometimes you have to give em shit and this is one of those times. It's not going to get the AAA third-party ports from PS4 and 720, the third party situation is going to be exactly like the Wii after PS4/720 have been out for about a year. If you're only going to be buying Nintendo exclusives, it's fine, the specs don't really matter in that case. One gig is an embarrassingly low amount of ram for a system that's supposed to last for the next 5+ years.

Actually the most pessimistic prediction was 768 MB of RAM and no, I'm not talking about that bogus rumor that it had that much embedded. Some people were predicting that much. 1 GB is not bad at all when you factor in the announced price, the hardware capability and game pad. Its twice the Xbox 360's and this machine seems to be geared towards 720 p graphics.

Now, does it match your standard? Apparently not, and never would at the price people are screaming for. Now, if it was $100 pricier, then that would not be acceptable. Though if Nintendo increased the price $100 aaaaand used the opportunity to put in my RAM and increase clock speeds, then we are again talking about a perfectly reasponsble price for a pretty capable system. But then people would still bitch about the price.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

If they removed the GamePad from the system price (assuming $250 for a Basic Set), you realize it would sell for like $100-125, right? They can only do so much with that console and keep it affordable.

I agree with you. There's not much they could have done if there limit was around 300 bucks, but for us their BoM shouldn't matter, we're the consumers.

By the way, does the gamepad have a processor/gpu in it? I don't think it does so why is it so expensive when there are companies releasing full-on tablets for 150-200 bucks (Kindle Fire, the new Google one).

 

[Charoncaori]

The fact that they're selling it at retail from launch means we're going to see launch games which use two pads. Madden is the obvious example, and I'd expect a demo of that later on today. That said, I'm a little surprised that they aren't packing a game in with the extra controller, Wii Play style, to make it seem better value.

No we won't. Have you been listening? They've confirmed multiple times there will be no games available at launch that have dual-pad functionality.

If a game manages to work it in at the last second and comes out AT LAUNCH, I will eat my hat.

Spoiler

I reserve the right to make said hat out of pancakes first

 

[Log4Girlz]

I agree with you. There's not much they could have done if there limit was around 300 bucks, but for us their BoM shouldn't matter, we're the consumers.

By the way, does the gamepad have a processor/gpu in it? I don't think it does so why is it so expensive when there are companies releasing full-on tablets for 150-200 bucks (Kindle Fire, the new Google one).

It has to have a chipset to process the signals and display the images sent by the host console. It probably only costs $50 bucks tops to make.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

2GB of RAM overall, with at least 1GB for gaming is actually better than most every prediction. But what happened to all the talk of "stop citing PC RAM prices, no console would ever ship with DDR3?" Surely the 1GB of video RAM is GDDR5, right? Which would actually be not that bad compared to most mid to low-end cards today.

 

[Log4Girlz]

2GB of RAM overall, with at least 1GB for gaming is actually better than most every prediction. But what happened to all the talk of "stop citing PC RAM prices, no console would ever ship with DDR3?" Surely the 1GB of video RAM is GDDR5, right? Which would actually be not that bad compared to most mid to low-end cards today.

I bet its GDDR3. And all the talk of PC prices was that one shouldn't assume the thing can have like 16 GB of GDDR3 because it costs 5 bucks on newegg.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

It has to have a chipset to process the signals and display the images sent by the host console. It probably only costs $50 bucks tops to make.

That's lame then. They're cheaping out as much as possible. If it costs around 50 bucks (I know you're just guessing but let's say it's around there) then they could have definitely upped the console specs -- another gig of ram, faster cpu, whatever.

2GB of RAM overall, with at least 1GB for gaming is actually better than most every prediction. But what happened to all the talk of "stop citing PC RAM prices, no console would ever ship with DDR3?" Surely the 1GB of video RAM is GDDR5, right? Which would actually be not that bad compared to most mid to low-end cards today.

It's 1 gb for games. Whether or not they'll unlock any more later on is irrelevant. The fact is that it's one gig for games, which is dreadful.

 

[TheD]

Erm, bullshit.

300K worth of vertices (as in 10M vert/s @ 30fps), at an average of 42Byes/vertex (pos + normal + tangent + uv) amount to the 'whooping' 12MB of storage, and the 'mindboggling' 420MB/s. That's literally statistical noise in comparison to the texture assets footprint and corresponding BW requirements.

So a console that is meant to have a GPU that is at least as powerful as what the 360 and PS3 have, will only be pushing 100K - 200K approx (I am not going to do the math for strips and fans) Tris per a frame at 30FPS!

Bullshit.

I have seen games use a 100MB of meshes!

You can not just ignore the bandwidth and memory that both meshes and textures need!

Ohh, somebody is clueless about the mem ratio of textures/meshes.

You said "texture reads ALONE" FFS!

 

[Koren]

By the way, does the gamepad have a processor/gpu in it? I don't think it does so why is it so expensive when there are companies releasing full-on tablets for 150-200 bucks (Kindle Fire, the new Google one).

There's a chip to enable low-lag video decompression, but no CPU-GPU.

That being said, I doubt an additional CPU/GPU and a couple of other things would cost much more than $50, so I don't see an obvious problem with a ~$125 WiiU pad and a ~$200 Nexus 7 ?

 

[mclem]

Please don't tell me there are people defending 1gb of ram. It's below even the most pessimistic predictions we've had over the months. One gig is terrible. I understand you have to defend Nintendo at every turn but sometimes you have to give em shit and this is one of those times. It's not going to get the AAA third-party ports from PS4 and 720, the third party situation is going to be exactly like the Wii after PS4/720 have been out for about a year. If you're only going to be buying Nintendo exclusives, it's fine, the specs don't really matter in that case. One gig is an embarrassingly low amount of ram for a system that's supposed to last for the next 5+ years.

I'm seeing a system a little more powerful than Xbox 360 with double the RAM available to developers and potential scope to increase that further depending on their long-term OS strategy.

The RAM seems to fit the specs.


Edit: I ought to point out that when I was developing, it was *always* textures that we had to carefully plan memory maps for. Without fail. I have to admit that I'm not sure if that's still the case; I'd love to see a memory map of (say) an Uncharted.

 

[DieH@rd]

2GB of RAM overall, with at least 1GB for gaming is actually better than most every prediction. But what happened to all the talk of "stop citing PC RAM prices, no console would ever ship with DDR3?" Surely the 1GB of video RAM is GDDR5, right? Which would actually be not that bad compared to most mid to low-end cards today.

Dont expect gddr5, this is Nitendo after all.

 

[Lupin the Third]

I agree with you. There's not much they could have done if there limit was around 300 bucks, but for us their BoM shouldn't matter, we're the consumers.

By the way, does the gamepad have a processor/gpu in it? I don't think it does so why is it so expensive when there are companies releasing full-on tablets for 150-200 bucks (Kindle Fire, the new Google one).

For the end consumer, neither does the amount of RAM. People aren't buying Wii U for specifications, they buy it for the library. If the end-user finds the library worth it, the 1GB won't matter. The games will look great, just maybe not "top-of-the-line PC @ 1080p 60FPS"-great. And I can live with that (helps that I have a nice PC with 12GB of RAM to fall back on for high-end software).

Even so, I would also like it to have been closer to the expected MS/Sony "powerhouses," but it sounds like a winner for its price point. My only concern (as the RAM goes) is matters of porting from those to Wii U (or perhaps vice-versa?). But again, got that PC, so....

GamePad is more or less a wireless shell of a controller with the screen. It's probably got a very nice wireless chip in it and the screen is rather large, so that probably adds to the cost (a PS3 controller w/the built-in battery and motion sensors is what, $55 officially?). Add in the camera(s?), sensor lights (prob. not much), superior motion tech (gyro sensor), big ol' screen and stylus, it's probably only slightly inflated for profitability at ~$150.

 

[Charoncaori]

That's lame then. They're cheaping out as much as possible. If it costs around 50 bucks (I know you're just guessing but let's say it's around there) then they could have definitely upped the console specs -- another gig of ram, faster cpu, whatever.

Nintendo made a LOT less money this past year than they've been expecting. They need hardware that'll make them cash hand over fist like the wii did or they're going to start seeing a lot of angry shareholders calling for Iwata's head.

 

[MadeInBeats]

Bag of mana.
Biscuit of misanthropy.
Bill of materials

Your choice.

Still kickin' those puppies dog leather boots Blu

what does bom stand for again?

Bill Of Materials.

 

[Log4Girlz]

That's lame then. They're cheaping out as much as possible. If it costs around 50 bucks (I know you're just guessing but let's say it's around there) then they could have definitely upped the console specs -- another gig of ram, faster cpu, whatever.

The base unit when converted to dollars is close to $250. They are taking a loss early on like the gamecube. Why would they add anything to that loss?

$250 is cheap. Let's stop pretending its not. They made a cheap, affordable system and everything reflects that.

Sure would be nice to have X more ram, X faster chipset, but that's just not going to happen and understandably so. Now if it was like $400, then that's a different story. Just like how the 3DS at $250 in retrospect was a big mistake (I thought at the time it would still do great at that price and that lack of software was hurting it), because ultimately, in terms of hardware, there wasn't much justification to that price other than pure profit pure unit.

 

[NBtoaster]

Having a ton of fast RAM seems to go against the philosophy of the rest of the console (cheap, compact, low power). No point in having it fast when it could be bottlenecked by something else.

 

[Thraktor]

No we won't. Have you been listening? They've confirmed multiple times there will be no games available at launch that have dual-pad functionality.

If a game manages to work it in at the last second and comes out AT LAUNCH, I will eat my hat.

Spoiler

I reserve the right to make said hat out of pancakes first

They also said that the Wii U would be more expensive than the Wii. It isn't. As circumstances change they change their strategy, and in this case my guess is that EA (and possibly other third parties) convinced them to sell it at launch because they want to make use of it in certain games. They've announced the retail price of the gamepad alongside the console and other accessories, and there would be absolutely no reason to do that if they're only selling them via mail order to the probably less than 1% of owners who break the one that comes with the console.

 

[Goodlife]

That's lame then. They're cheaping out as much as possible. If it costs around 50 bucks (I know you're just guessing but let's say it's around there) then they could have definitely upped the console specs -- another gig of ram, faster cpu, whatever.


It's 1 gb for games. Whether or not they'll unlock any more later on is irrelevant. The fact is that it's one gig for games, which is dreadful.

Yay, lets make the CPU faster, meaning a larger case and / or more cooling.
Of course, a faster CPU would be pointless without more RAM, let's chuck that in as well. The GPU is looking a like it's going to be a bottleneck now? Oh, sod it, lets make that better, increasing the size and cooling a little bit more, why the hell not.

Cool. That's $200 more please?

"FCUK no, I'm not spending $500 on a games console"

etc etc etc.

A nice, balanced system, at a decent price point.
That's what it seems we have with the WiiU.

You may want better HARDCORE GRAPHICS etc, but this is a clear strategy from Nintendo, that's served them well recently

 

[MadeInBeats]

People still complaining about RAM? How can they when they have no idea what the architecture involves. Ridiculous.

 

[jonno394]

Funniest thing i've read today over on EUrogamer in the commenst section:

"Nintendo should've gone with a built in Hard drive; a quiet console doesn't sound as powerful as a loud one"

 

[Limanima]

I really think that power is irrevelant for Nintendo once again like it was with the Wii.
They will throw some Super Marios, Zeldas, etc, and the console will sell like crazy. WiiU will once again target children and casuals, this market doesn't care about graphical and CPU power. They just want some fun games. I don't really get this WiiU power discussions.

 

[Log4Girlz]

People still complaining about RAM? How can they when they have no idea what the architecture involves. Ridiculous.

When it comes to RAM more is almost always better. 1 GB is not a number that sets the world alight.

 

[MadeInBeats]

Funniest thing i've read today over on EUrogamer in the commenst section:

"Nintendo should've gone with a built in Hard drive; a quiet console doesn't sound as powerful as a loud one"

LMAO. Paint can attached to car exhaust confirmed.

 

[Charoncaori]

They also said that the Wii U would be more expensive than the Wii. It isn't. As circumstances change they change their strategy, and in this case my guess is that EA (and possibly other third parties) convinced them to sell it at launch because they want to make use of it in certain games. They've announced the retail price of the gamepad alongside the console and other accessories, and there would be absolutely no reason to do that if they're only selling them via mail order to the probably less than 1% of owners who break the one that comes with the console.

I don't know the exact timeframe of the quote you're talking about, but I'd assume it was before the price drop of the 3ds. Because they seriously slashed the price of the 3ds, they can now afford to lower the price of the wii u without making it seem too cheap compared to their other products.

Games will make use of the 2 pads eventually, maaaybe in december, but I'm still not expecting it in a launch title. Maybe you'll be right, but I don't think so.

 

[StreetsAhead]

The fact that they're selling it at retail from launch means we're going to see launch games which use two pads. Madden is the obvious example, and I'd expect a demo of that later on today. That said, I'm a little surprised that they aren't packing a game in with the extra controller, Wii Play style, to make it seem better value.

Iwata confirmed there would be no games that use 2 pads at launch and we'd have to wait until next year for any to be released.

 

[FyreWulff]

There's also the fact that they won't expect to sell as many GamePads as they would say Wiimotes since there's a cap of two per console. That'll also raise the individual price, since people will buy one and they're set.

 

[Goodlife]

I really think that power is irrevelant for Nintendo once again like it was with the Wii.
They will throw some Super Marios, Zeldas, etc, and the console will sell like crazy. WiiU will once again target children and casuals, this market doesn't care about graphical and CPU power. They just want some fun games. I don't really get this WiiU power discussions.

I don't think Power is irrelevant, Nintendo could have made some very pretty games on the PS360.
Despite all the hyperbole round these parts, they have gone past the PS360, that's pretty clear.

 

[AntMurda]

Iwata confirmed there would be no games that use 2 pads at launch and we'd have to wait until next year for any to be released.

I think what Nintendo specifically said was that they did not have any games at E3 showcasing that feature. I could be wrong. Eitherway, things could have changed because Madden makes a lot of sense actually.

 

[MadeInBeats]

When it comes to RAM more is almost always better. 1 GB is not a number that sets the world alight.

Moaw of anything is often seen as better, but what's the point in singling out a 'number' and complaining about it based purely on the number. And what's the complaint in comparison to? Rumour specs of next PS720; PCs; phones, or current gen consoles. Certainly not the as yet unknown overall working architecture of the Wii U apparently = just looking for something, anything to pick on and moan about in the fashion of a drunken football fan.

 

[StreetsAhead]

I think what Nintendo specifically said was that they did not have any games at E3 showcasing that feature. I could be wrong. Eitherway, things could have changed because Madden makes a lot of sense actually.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, Iwata said there'd be no games this year that use two pads in the Nintendo Direct that aired 5 hours ago.

Maybe he wasn't talking about Western games, but still. It's what he said.

 

[Lupin the Third]

I'm seeing a lot of people getting worked up (or pretending to be) over the system specs, but the system is launching literally at the exact same price point Wii did: 25000yen+tax, no game included. An Xbox 360 with 4GB flash memory is $200. Wii U will probably land domestically in a $250 bundle, and that includes the pricey controller ($100+ on its own) and hardware that runs superior to those old machines.

Other than the system not being a powerhouse in general, there is very little to get worked up about here. The price is extremely reasonable.

What we should be concerned about is, if 25000y is the cheapest Nintendo gets this piece of kit, I shudder to think how the pricing on next year's "powerhouses" will fare... Do people actually WANT $500-600 consoles? I don't expect any less then $400 for either configuration. And say what you want about loss-leaders and MS having deep pockets...those will not be dirt-cheap consoles. I do hope they are worth it.

 

[kitchenmotors]

People still complaining about RAM? How can they when they have no idea what the architecture involves. Ridiculous.

I love the fact that people are complaining about the 1GB of ram for the OS. Those people are the usual suspects tho, tbqh.

 

[Micerider]

I don't think Power is irrelevant, Nintendo could have made some very pretty games on the PS360.
Despite all the hyperbole round these parts, they have gone past the PS360, that's pretty clear.

When I think of Nintendo and the "power" of the Wii U, I think about Viva Pinata or Even Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts (which was really nice, despite a few odd chara-design)...and that makes me smile.

Rare might have been away from Nintendo for long, but I still identified their production (especially the two above-mentioned) as an exemple as what the "Nintendo" way could look like on this gen. And I'd be ok with that level of graphics on the Wii-U.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Moaw of anything is often seen as better, but what's the point in singling out a 'number' and complaining about it based purely on the number. And what's the complaint in comparison to? Rumour specs of next PS720; PCs; phones, or current gen consoles. Certainly not the as yet unknown overall working architecture of the Wii U apparently = just looking for something, anything to pick on and moan about in the fashion of a drunken football fan.

When it comes to anything which creates graphics more RAM is always seen as better. Regardless of the architecture of the Wii U, 2 GB for games is better than 1. 3 is better than 2. 4 is better than 3. If we keep the same type of ram. So that's why people may complain. Having 1 GB of RAM, which no matter how you slice it is only twice that of the Xbox 360 will be a bottleneck.

 

[Lupin the Third]

When I think of Nintendo and the "power" of the Wii U, I think about Viva Pinata or Even Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts (which was really nice, despite a few odd chara-design)...and that makes me smile.

Rare might have been away from Nintendo for long, but I still identified their production (especially the two above-mentioned) as an exemple as what the "Nintendo" way could look like on this gen. And I'd be ok with that level of graphics on the Wii-U.

I'm not expecting full-on next-gen graphics from Wii U, but your comments just made me flash back to the Wii pre-launch when people were saying they would be fine with GameCube-level graphics for another generation. Shame a lot of developers didn't even live up to those now-minimal standards (see: Wii shovelware).

 

[Goodlife]

When it comes to anything which creates graphics more RAM is always seen as better. Regardless of the architecture of the Wii U, 2 GB for games is better than 1. 3 is better than 2. 4 is better than 3. If we keep the same type of ram. So that's why people may complain. Having 1 GB of RAM, which no matter how you slice it is only twice that of the Xbox 360 will be a bottleneck.

Does the 360 have 512mb just for games? What's their OS memory?

 

[Bony Manifesto]

What we should be concerned about is, if 25000y is the cheapest Nintendo gets this piece of kit, I shudder to think how the pricing on next year's "powerhouses" will fare... Do people actually WANT $500-600 consoles? I don't expect any less then $400 for either configuration. And say what you want about loss-leaders and MS having deep pockets...those will not be dirt-cheap consoles. I do hope they are worth it.

Er, ¥25,000 was the price the original Wii launched at in Japan. Nice job stirring up FUD over Nintendo's rivals though.

 

[TheD]

Does the 360 have 512mb just for games? What's their OS memory?

Something like 32MB.

 

[thisisnotdanny]

Specs didn't hold the 3DS back from devouring the Vita.