Am I misreading your post or did you completely misunderstand what I said?
Rumor: Wii U final specs
- Thread starter EatChildren
- Start date
Am I misreading your post or did you completely misunderstand what I said?
Christberg
Member
You're misreading. I'm agreeing with you and adding that calling the Wii U 7 year old tech would require comparing it to the X360 in its launch packaging. Which isn't even worth doing because the differences are that huge.
specialguy
Banned
Sure it can. Else, explain why it isn't.
It came out in 2005 and basically matched the PS3 that came out in 2006. That's pretty good. It's GPU was incredibly advanced for the time. Etc.
We wont see a console that cutting edge ever again.
specialguy
Banned
The teardown doesn't really show much except:
-The board altogether shows they really had to compromise to get everything into such a small space. Compare it to a 360 or PS3 motherboard.
-The MCM nature of the CPU/GPU.
-Very tiny CPU as expected
-Decent size GPU from what can be ascertained. Integrated with EDRAM which really surprises me.
Now we need to know the GPU process node (BG thinks it's 28nm I guess, as usual I'm a little skeptical), and how big 32MB of EDRAM at that node is.
-The board altogether shows they really had to compromise to get everything into such a small space. Compare it to a 360 or PS3 motherboard.
-The MCM nature of the CPU/GPU.
-Very tiny CPU as expected
-Decent size GPU from what can be ascertained. Integrated with EDRAM which really surprises me.
Now we need to know the GPU process node (BG thinks it's 28nm I guess, as usual I'm a little skeptical), and how big 32MB of EDRAM at that node is.
specialguy
Banned
ok, I've done some incredibly rough, likely wrong figuring. The 32MB of EDRAM if it's at 28nm may be 30-40mm^2.
Based on this fuzzy math
360 10MB EDRAM at likely (but unconfirmed, so there could be all kinds of error here) 65nm=45mm^2 >>http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1447163&postcount=239
So assuming 50% reductions per node you get ~11mm^2 per 10MB on 28nm.
32MB=~35mm^2 @ 28nm. Seems reasonable.
On a 115-150mm GPU die?...
You get 80-115mm left for the GPU on 28nm.
I'm still pretty skeptical, that's near Cape Verde size. In which case, why not just use a Cape Verde.
But the figure in all cases are so incredibly rough here.
Based on this fuzzy math
360 10MB EDRAM at likely (but unconfirmed, so there could be all kinds of error here) 65nm=45mm^2 >>http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1447163&postcount=239
So assuming 50% reductions per node you get ~11mm^2 per 10MB on 28nm.
32MB=~35mm^2 @ 28nm. Seems reasonable.
On a 115-150mm GPU die?...
You get 80-115mm left for the GPU on 28nm.
I'm still pretty skeptical, that's near Cape Verde size. In which case, why not just use a Cape Verde.
But the figure in all cases are so incredibly rough here.
bgassassin
Member
32nm or 28nm
ColdBlooder
Banned
Gemüsepizza;43070970 said:
Dude, you are basically looking directly at the DIE here. The heatspreader is off on this picture:
This is the "Package" with heatspreader on:
And this is an E450 CPU without the heatspreader (And this one also has a whole casual gaming compatible GPU inside):
Dies are usually alot smaller than the actual package.
You seriously cannot measure performance on DIE size...
Oh wait, im on GAF...
specialguy
Banned
huh? dies are the chip
i think you're getting chip/die confused with package.
package=the green plastic rectangle the die sits on. basically irrelevant.
i think you're getting chip/die confused with package.
package=the green plastic rectangle the die sits on. basically irrelevant.
ColdBlooder
Banned
Yeah youre right, sry. Its still early over here...
Never the less the tiny CPU does really have absolutely nothing to to with its performance.
The "die comparison" is still valid
And with the heatspreader on is tasically looks like one giant chip!
specialguy
Banned
Anyways, in one sense I'm impressed Nintendo appeared to dedicate over 100mm to the GPU (incl. EDRAM)
OTOH, PS3/360 had 400-500mm worth of silicon at launch, (438mm CPU+GPU+EDRAM on X360 launch ) adding the nominal CPU this thing probably has at absolute most 200mm, and probably more like 150mm.
So that's another way to look at it. But even approaching half/third of other consoles silicon launch budgets impresses me when it comes to Nintendo.
Sure it does. But we already knew the Wii U CPU was err, de-emphasized. The miniscule CPU die was entirely expected.
I could see Durango looking something like:
8 Jaguar cores=~70mm (just wild guesstimate)+(Cape Verde+) GPU=140mm+32MB EDRAM=~40mm=250mm?
Damn, that's not a lot of silicon for a nice machine in Durango's case. Throw in 8GB of cheapo DDR RAM and MS will be laughing to the $299 bank, with a machine that still walks over competitors.
OTOH, PS3/360 had 400-500mm worth of silicon at launch, (438mm CPU+GPU+EDRAM on X360 launch ) adding the nominal CPU this thing probably has at absolute most 200mm, and probably more like 150mm.
So that's another way to look at it. But even approaching half/third of other consoles silicon launch budgets impresses me when it comes to Nintendo.
Sure it does. But we already knew the Wii U CPU was err, de-emphasized. The miniscule CPU die was entirely expected.
I could see Durango looking something like:
8 Jaguar cores=~70mm (just wild guesstimate)+(Cape Verde+) GPU=140mm+32MB EDRAM=~40mm=250mm?
Damn, that's not a lot of silicon for a nice machine in Durango's case. Throw in 8GB of cheapo DDR RAM and MS will be laughing to the $299 bank, with a machine that still walks over competitors.
How can you continue to be so wrong so forcefully?
Die size is one good indicator of the range of performance that can be achieved by a chip. Clock speed is another, and so is TDP. Just because none of them in isolation tell you the whole performance picture does not at all mean that they have "have absolutely nothing to to with its performance".
ColdBlooder
Banned
So you have seen the die size. How powerful is the CPU exactly? You have to know this now that you have seen the die, so tell us!
ColdBlooder
Banned
Only by devs new to Nintendo hardware. Not by devs that supported the Wii. Did you hear Ubisoft or Treyarch complain about it?
I hope your lack of reading comprehension is willful and not inherent. If the latter, you have my condolences.
So I guess we can answer this one:
-38 days
ColdBlooder
Banned
Yeah yet everyone jumps to the conclusion: "Small die = weaksauce".
I don´t expect it to be a beast, no one does. But just to say "Small die = indicator of being weak" is also pretty dumb.
Yeah the people saying "the CPU is tiny compared to me i5" etc, really need to take the heatspreader off their i5* and look at the cpu itself. It's no bigger than your thumbnail.
Stop being silly, people. Since when did smaller mean < in computing technology? Y'all expecting your next PC to be bigger than your bed?
*dont do this
Stop being silly, people. Since when did smaller mean < in computing technology? Y'all expecting your next PC to be bigger than your bed?
*dont do this
GhostTrick
Banned
Well, I do agree that die size/chip size isnt an accurate power indicator... but still, it gives a range. The performance will be more like netbook CPU IMO, or small laptop.
Now, I'm still wondering if they can achieve more than 400Gflops for the GPU with such a small size.
Now, I'm still wondering if they can achieve more than 400Gflops for the GPU with such a small size.
specialguy
Banned
Yeh, the i5 is really tiny. But, it's on a smaller node (22nm) so you get double the transistors at a given size (quadruple over 45nm Wii U CPU). Intel has done amazing things though, ya gotta feel for AMD Intel just toys with them.
For a 45nm CPU that Wii U die is REALLY tiny.
Just be happy the GPU isn't pathetically tiny. That's a win for you.
In die sizes it basically does. Of course there are efficiency differences, but theyre generally not huge. And I'm pretty sure IBM isn't going to win any of those vs Intel or AMD. Common sense, Intel and AMD make way more CPU's.
ColdBlooder
Banned
And AMD Jaguar are netbook cpus wich are rumored to be used in Nextbox and PS4
Actually the GPU has a pretty decent size...
GhostTrick
Banned
But a really small power consumption. Also AMD Jaguar are rumored for sure... but still core numbers are unknown.
specialguy
Banned
Here's an Intel Ivy Bridge picture, I dont even know what model, just straight from a google image search
@22nm
@22nm
ColdBlooder
Banned
Here's an Intel Ivy Bridge picture, I dont even know what model, just straight from a google image search
@22nm
You do realise that Ivy Bridge = High End PC. This could be Extreme Edition with 6 cores doe all we know...
We are taking netbook scale here.
I could google a 16 core opteron and the die size would be enormous...
More cores = bigger DIE, this should be obvious.
DaSorcerer7
Member
lol
specialguy
Banned
Here's an Intel Ivy Bridge picture, I dont even know what model, just straight from a google image search
@22nm
Yep, and that's 1/3 gpu, at least 4 CPU cores, a large l3 cache and 2x memory controllers.....
Couldn't be more irrelevant to the discussion.
Not to mention that it's a top of the range desktop CPU. I shouldn't have to point that out.
fyi, The actual CPU cores in there are about 1x 12th the size of that metal cap.
GhostTrick
Banned
Low, but compared to what and for doing what ?
Compared to the rumored Jaguar cores in PS4/720, not that much.
specialguy
Banned
interestingly I think Nintendo could have used one of these for Wii U. Other than nobody seems to deal with Intel in consoles.
But think the HD4000 GPU is probably underpowered.
Trinity would have been better, but the good ones draw 100 watts.
It will be interesting if what Nintendo has come up with is superior.
It probably is. Skews away from the CPU and more to the GPU, uses less power.
Would just like some proof the GPU is decent...
ColdBlooder
Banned
I judge the GPU when i see a Nintendo AAA Franchise on the system. Wich is unfortunately what we haven´t seen yet and everyone expected at E3.
(And no, Pikmin and NSMBU are a B franchises)
I think when Pikmin 3 gets a re-reveal (with a 2013 release date) you will see a big difference in graphics. It'll be a looker.
ColdBlooder
Banned
I thought it looked incredible this E3, but hey, GAF think it looks like a Wii game...
Well ground textures were kinda blurry considering the amount of ram this machine has. Otherwise it looked great.
ColdBlooder
Banned
WE are on the same page? WTF?? This must truly mean the end is coming, lol
And yeah i agree. Jaguar will most likely be faster but won´t blow Espresso out of the water...
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
You do realize the CPU and GPU are from different vendors, and could be using largely different fab tech (down to die substrate), right?
ColdBlooder
Banned
Wii U = 3 Wiis ducttaped together confirmed!!
Lol no. I don´t think you can "calculate" anything from that figure.
Pretty sure we can GAFulate sone "figures" though
srsly tho, that about what people would expect? I've no idea about console heat dissipation.
ColdBlooder
Banned
Pretty sure we can GAFulate sone "figures" though
srsly tho, that about what people would expect? I've no idea about console heat dissipation.
I can only speak for myself.
CPU is as expected. Size is like a netbook class cpu, but the GPU die is surprisingly big. Im also surprised that they have both chips in a "MCM package".
Cooling solution looks alot like Wiis. That was surprising to me aswell. Just with bigger heat sink and a bigger, stronger fan.
I think we can expect a HD console build around Gamecubes hardware design philosophy. And that is IMO someting to be excited about!
Agreed. Reading that transcript of the Iwata Asks is simply awesome. Love having an insight into how these guys think and design their hardware.
amstradcpc
Member
Samsun Galaxy S3 CPU in 32nm ( 4 ARM cortex A9 cores ) is bigger than this CPU. If it is in fact at 45nm the difference then is even bigger...
Yeah and it melted itself in what, 30% of cases. The 360 was basically high end tech shoved into a box and glued together with spit. I don't consider a machine with a failure rate that high to be elegant, efficient or optimised.
specialguy
Banned
you're talking more about build quality. besides, rrod was probably sort of a random thing that could have struck anybody.
there's lots of problems with nintendo hardware too like the 3ds hinge thing, and obviously it's easier to build reliable when performance is so far from cutting edge.
there's lots of problems with nintendo hardware too like the 3ds hinge thing, and obviously it's easier to build reliable when performance is so far from cutting edge.
This is why I'm waiting until the next Xbox's revision before I pick it up. 8 fucking warranty mailins. Never again. I even eventually had to send in my Falcon H3 360.
GhostTrick
Banned
Are you aware that Galaxy S3 is a SoC ?
You cant see the CPU itself. It should be much smaller.
GhostTrick
Banned
You know, performance =/ hard to build. Theres design choice to make. You want something powerfull ? Make sure its big enough to cool the whole system.
And I dont see the point with the 3DS hinge, I dont remember 3DS burning because of hinge.