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[RAÏSanÏa]

You know, you can reply normally without using thesaurus.com and acid drop riddles you've done in the past.

This pseudo intellectual bullshit gets old fast.

It's better than being a dog chasing its tail.

 

[Wildebeest]

We already knew this though. Ukraine has multiple signed treaties with Russia, signed by Yeltsin, Medvedev, and Putin himself that never mentioned Crimea as a disputed territory, and yet Putin took it anyway.

Ukraine's treaty terms are entirely up to them, but I don't see why they would accept anything less than the 1991 borders that Russia itself agreed to.

It is a different level of unfair if Ukraine offer it up than if Putin meets with Biden and they "carve up" Ukraine without any Ukrainian being at the table. I heard that is what Putin would prefer.

 

[DrAspirino]

No. Putin’s administration has zero credibility.

I think it depends. Russian lies always come with a truth as a disguise, so you can't discard everything they say without analisys.

For example, the russian government can say the sky is green because the way the photons reflect on the water molecules gives it that color. We all know the sky is NOT green, but we also know that the explanation given is true, so we have to be careful around that propaganda.

 

[Catphish]

No. Putin’s administration has zero credibility.

Yes, but that is entirely NOT my point. And I honestly don't get why it's so difficult to understand.

The veracity of his claims aren't the point. The existence of his claims are.

And being that none of us are in his head, it's perfectly rational to use what exists as a basis for an attempt at understanding.

I mean, can we not agree that it's important to understand your adversary? Isn't that, like, Warfare 101?

That's all I'm talking about. To suggest otherwise, directed at me anyway, is a strawman, and a complete waste of time and keystrokes.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It's better than being a dog chasing its tail.

Not unlike one sniffing their own farts.

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

Yes, but that is entirely NOT my point. And I honestly don't get why it's so difficult to understand.

The veracity of his claims aren't the point. The existence of his claims are.

And being that none of us are in his head, it's perfectly rational to use what exists as a basis for an attempt at understanding.

I mean, can we not agree that it's important to understand your adversary? Isn't that, like, Warfare 101?

That's all I'm talking about. To suggest otherwise, directed at me anyway, is a strawman, and a complete waste of time and keystrokes.

It's better to focus more on what a politician does rather than what they say.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It's better to focus more on what a politician does rather than what they say.

If only this beacon were enlightened to most.

 

[Rest]

You know, you can reply normally without using thesaurus.com and acid drop riddles you've done in the past.

This pseudo intellectual bullshit gets old fast.

yer vocabuh-larry is makin me feel dum, stahp it!

 

[EviLore]

I think it depends. Russian lies always come with a truth as a disguise, so you can't discard everything they say without analisys.

For example, the russian government can say the sky is green because the way the photons reflect on the water molecules gives it that color. We all know the sky is NOT green, but we also know that the explanation given is true, so we have to be careful around that propaganda.

It’s important to acknowledge reality when we see it, regardless of the source, yeah. However, this conflict is similar to Germany’s invasion of Poland in 1939. Analysis of the invader’s true motives are worth discussing in both instances, since we are in a development that could escalate to a devastating world war in the worst case, but the blatantly false pretenses given for invasion by the instigating parties have little bearing on the situation.

 

[DeepEnigma]

yer vocabuh-larry is makin me feel dum, stahp it!

Nah, it's just pretender shit we've all seen online before.

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

If only this beacon were enlightened to most.

"Know them by their fruits" says my friend Matt.

These Boss knockoffs fell from a particular type of tree


And you can see it everyday in people by the fruit they bear in their minds by the words they drop.

 

[EviLore]

Ukrainian and Russian refugees befriending each other at the US border in Tijuana.

 

[iamblades]

It is a different level of unfair if Ukraine offer it up than if Putin meets with Biden and they "carve up" Ukraine without any Ukrainian being at the table. I heard that is what Putin would prefer.

Certainly.

I really believe the idea that the troop buildup in the months before invasion was a bluff intended to get the US to capitulate, but when we wouldn't give Putin his Yalta he had no choice but to invade with a shitty halfbaked plan where he split his forces on 4-5 different fronts and hoped to just be able to drive down the highways into the capital unopposed. Bad gamble.

Part of me wonders if Putin has any idea how shameful the Yalta agreement is viewed in the west if he thinks that we would give a second rate power who has done nothing positive for anyone the same favorable terms that we gave to an undisputed superpower who just spent 4 years bleeding against the germans. Seems completely illogical to me.

 

[akimbo009]

"Know them by their fruits" says my friend Matt.

These Boss knockoffs fell from a particular type of tree


And you can see it everyday in people by the fruit they bear in their minds by the words they drop.

They are facsists. Easy to hate, and totally legit target for hate.

 

[DeepEnigma]

"Know them by their fruits" says my friend Matt.

These Boss knockoffs fell from a particular type of tree


And you can see it everyday in people by the fruit they bear in their minds by the words they drop.

Preaching to the choir. Sadly, this is not always laid or applied by all, even those who preach it.

 

[TransTrender]

What does the Senate have to do with this?

Spoiler

Instead of the standard ironic.gif, ironic because they want to Denazify Ukraine but then resort to anti-antisemitism themselves, I used a gif of 'ole Palpy giving you a deadpan head turn stare. Everyone then claps and starts tipping their waiter.

 

[Thaedolus]

And simply dismissing anything coming out of Russia, and discarding it out-of-hand, to the point where you don't even acknowledge it, delivers you similarly.

Bro Putin will straight up deny things we have photographic evidence of, to the face of the person with the evidence. The truth means absolutely nothing to him at this point and his subordinates are following his lead by simply denying everything we can see with our own eyes. The gap between what they’re saying about the conflict versus reality is so large that you have to assume they’re either completely bad faith actors, or completely insane. There’s no reason to believe anything they say which we can’t also triple verify ourselves at this point.

There is actually a time to take sides and not “both sides” everything, and that time has arrived.

 

[DrAspirino]

There is actually a time to take sides and not “both sides” are everything, and that time has arrived.

Again, depends on perspective.

I, for one, can't choose between a delusional despot with a nuclear button (Putin), and a country that allows and even welcomes literal nazis into their army (Azov Battalion), and would do exactly the same if they still have nuclear arsenal.

I choose the people's side in this, not countries.

 

[Termite]

It's annoying seeing any attempt to understand Putin's seemingly insane, illogical moves dismissed as some kind of attempt to buy into Russian propaganda.

I've been reading about this daily for three weeks and I still can't understand why he did this, how he thought it would go, what he thought he could realistically achieve and on what timeframe, how he couldn't understand how this would drive all his enemies together after years of successfully pushing them apart.

I seriously don't get it. What was he thinking? What was the miscalculation?

Does he really think he can take and hold Kyiv, and everything will slowly normalize? It's madness.

 

[Thaedolus]

It's madness.

Sounds like you do understand him then

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

It's annoying seeing any attempt to understand Putin's seemingly insane, illogical moves dismissed as some kind of attempt to buy into Russian propaganda.

I've been reading about this daily for three weeks and I still can't understand why he did this, how he thought it would go, what he thought he could realistically achieve and on what timeframe, how he couldn't understand how this would drive all his enemies together after years of successfully pushing them apart.

I seriously don't get it. What was he thinking? What was the miscalculation?

Does he really think he can take and hold Kyiv, and everything will slowly normalize? It's madness.

You showed right there it's possible to bring those questions forward on your own terms without echoing well known Russian fascist propaganda.

 

[EviLore]

It's annoying seeing any attempt to understand Putin's seemingly insane, illogical moves dismissed as some kind of attempt to buy into Russian propaganda.

I've been reading about this daily for three weeks and I still can't understand why he did this, how he thought it would go, what he thought he could realistically achieve and on what timeframe, how he couldn't understand how this would drive all his enemies together after years of successfully pushing them apart.

I seriously don't get it. What was he thinking? What was the miscalculation?

Does he really think he can take and hold Kyiv, and everything will slowly normalize? It's madness.

Every prior step he took in this direction, including the annexation of Crimea and the incursion into eastern Ukraine was met with a weak response from the west. The USA has been more divided than ever and busy tearing itself apart. The fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban was another signal. He thought he would get his way once again.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I seriously don't get it. What was he thinking? What was the miscalculation?

That as many times before West is all talk and no bite, busy with their consumerism, LGBTQA+ and other shit. We will go in, Ukraine will fold in 3 days, problem solved.

Choooo, choooo, motherfucker.

 

[Rentahamster]

Again, depends on perspective.

I, for one, can't choose between a delusional despot with a nuclear button (Putin), and a country that allows and even welcomes literal nazis into their army (Azov Battalion), and would do exactly the same if they still have nuclear arsenal.

I choose the people's side in this, not countries.

It's actually a pretty clear choice when you take into account the weight and strength of the evidence to support either of those characterizations, as well as a tallying of which "side" has caused more actual harm recently. Invading an innocent and sovereign country tips the scales pretty heavily. Don't delude yourself with false equivalences.

 

[Thaedolus]

When you’ve gotten your way for decades in power and nobody dares to tell you no, of course it’s going to go to your head and make you think you can do anything.

Sayings like this generally suck for analysis but “power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely” is actually a saying that has shown to be true time and time again. Putin has had absolute power for a long time now, and he’s a malignant tumor on Russia and is trying to spread out to the rest of the world. You don’t feed a tumor, you cut it out, you starve it of nutrients, you burn it. And you don’t listen to it when it says it’s actually got some legitimate concerns about how it’s being treated

 

[6502]

You people need to make up your minds about wether you want the USA to be the World Police or not.

Yes please.

 

[sw0mp_d0nk3y]

Quick list of 8 Russian assets? They're not sending their best.

 

[belmarduk]

Quick list of 8 Russian assets? They're not sending their best.

That lot is so predictable... glad they lost.

 

[Thaedolus]

Quick list of 8 Russian assets? They're not sending their best.

I could’ve listed off 4 of those names without looking but it’s hard to know if they’re playing the “I’m compromised” game or the “I’m a contrarian internet shitposter that found myself in office so I performatively vote against everything game,” or both.

 

[NoLootBoxDev]

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

Couldn't even get China and India to co-sponsor.

Considering this letter...

 

[Catphish]

Couldn't even get China and India to co-sponsor.

Considering this letter...

I very much enjoyed reading that letter.

 

[akimbo009]

Couldn't even get China and India to co-sponsor.

Considering this letter...

That letter edit is hilarious.

The fact China is also now showing internal and external Ukraine coverage of Russia's actions in a negative like, it looks like the worm has turned. Let's see how an isolated and failing Putin behaves.

 

[BigBooper]

Couldn't even get China and India to co-sponsor.

Considering this letter...

Lol that letter... Can you imagine the memes we would have if Twitter had existed during WW2?

 

[FunkMiller]

This is why I barely participate in this thread. There is no discussion to be had. Just "only good Russian is a dead Russian" , "he's just a dumb dictator doing dictator things" type rhetoric and reductive pile-on's practicing the very things one claims to hate. People like to understand the inner workings of the human condition and what drives people to do things, from serial killers to mass shooters. Especially in wartime scenarios, even more so I would argue. That is human nature to question them, unless of course you get your talking points uploaded to you.

Deleted. Explanation below.

 

[Peggies]

You people need to make up your minds about wether you want the USA to be the World Police or not.

 

[QSD]

I was just thinking that if Putin does blow up the world, he will have been right about the collapse of the Soviet Union being the biggest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century. It created a vacuum for a violent thug like him to take power.

I was watching these PBS interviews about Putin yesterday and something that really struck me is one of the speakers emphasized how no russian leader since Stalin has concentrated so much power in his own person. After Stalin, Soviet Secretary-Generals could always be ousted by the politbureau, but Putin does not have this check.

 

[FunkMiller]

*sigh*

I know it's fashionable to take on a binary position with this, a "you're either with us or against us" stance, but you're a fool if you think this, or any other similar conflict, is that simple.

Putin is a bully, yes. Putin is a ruthless dictator, and not a human being that I have any respect for, knowing what I know of his time in power. Yes. I agree.

However, he is still the leader of that country, has considerable resources at his disposal, and there are things that he wants.

You don't engage in international diplomacy with a binary mindset. A binary approach means that negotiations never take place, no concessions are ever made, and wars never end.

Wars are fought with blood and money, but they end with diplomacy.

So, what does Putin want? I don't know that for sure, obviously, but one thing I do know is that he has stated multiple times that Ukraine in NATO is a red line.

Ukraine in NATO not only takes wealth from him, but it also puts nuclear missiles, soon to be hypersonic, with a flight-time of less than 15min (some estimates I've read are closer to 5) to Moscow. This gives the West first-strike capability. Instead of Mutallty-Assured-Destruction, Russia would then be susceptible to Unilaterally-Assured-Destruction, where Moscow is potentially destroyed without them having a chance to respond.

Whether or not NATO would ever strike first is irrelevant. The simple fact that they could is the very definition of an existential threat, just as we saw missiles in Cuba as an existential threat to the US in the 60s. And that, as I understand it, is at least one reason why he forbids Ukraine joining NATO.

In those terms, Putin's character as a leader, and Putin's character as a person, are irrelevant. He is the president of Russia, and those are his terms. If we cross them, we risk the same reaction of any leader in his position.

So, come on then, have a go, call it bullshit, tear people down for trying to have a deeper understanding, shut down conversation and label people as 'appeasers' or 'apologists' or any of the rest of the shit I see like it going on in this thread. It will not serve you, or anyone else, except those who love blind obedience and followers.

It’s one thing to want to examine the ‘nuance’ of the situation, it’s another to spend hundreds or words dancing around the fact you think Putin might have a point. It’s incredibly transparent. You don’t have a ‘deeper understanding’. You’re trying to rationalise the actions of a fucking worm. Ukraine has every right to join whoever the hell it wants. Putin is under zero threat from NATO and never has been.

and These are the words of either a pro Russian propagandist or just a complete fool:

“And simply dismissing anything coming out of Russia, and discarding it out-of-hand, to the point where you don't even acknowledge it, delivers you similarly.”

 

[Liljagare]

Just on a side note, isn't Putin looking more and more puffy/swollen for each week that passes? Superior vena cava syndrome or superior vena cava obstruction is what it really is starting to look like, esp when you compare pictures from 2020 to now.

He doesn't look like he's gained weight, just like he's poofing up.

 

[Catphish]

It’s one thing to want to examine the ‘nuance’ of the situation, it’s another to spend hundreds or words dancing around the fact you think Putin might have a point. It’s incredibly transparent.

And by the fact you’re seriously asking us to consider that information coming out of the Russian state might be true, pegs you right in that column.

These are the words of either a pro Russian propagandist or just a complete fool:

“And simply dismissing anything coming out of Russia, and discarding it out-of-hand, to the point where you don't even acknowledge it, delivers you similarly.”

 

[Bogeyman]

Man, I hope that military/secret service from Ukraine-allied countries try to identify and keep track of who specifically is committing war crimes.

And then, when this thing inevitably ends, most likely with Russia having its tail between its legs.. Make lifting or easing sanctions absolutely, unnegotiably conditional on those specific people standing international trial.

 

[FunkMiller]

 

[DeepEnigma]

Carry on like that, if you’re intent is to somehow either rationalise or even justify Putin’s actions. Which it just might appear to be with your intimation that Putin and the west are the same in terms of trustworthiness.

Shut the fuck up. You’re the worst poster in this thread, reetarded accusations constantly from you.

 

[Liljagare]

Good contribution to the civil discussions going on mate!

EDIT: Yowza, keep calm folks. If you can't discuss a point without retorting to insults, go for a walk, or have a brewskie.

 

[FunkMiller]

Shut the fuck up. You’re the worst poster in this thread, reetarded accusations constantly from you.

And they’ll continue any time someone enters this thread to somehow equate Russia and the west, take part in whataboutery, or in any way seek to ‘both sides‘ this conflict. We should not ‘question the thought process of everyone involved’… we should condemn the man deliberately bombing children in theatres, and support the people fighting him. So forgive me if I don’t shut up.

Unless the mods ban me, of course.

Then I’ll just go and talk about dying a lot in Elden Ring

 

[Atrus]

Still don't understand the "nuance" folks.

Why bother trying to rationalize the position for Russian aggression when one of the greatest threats to Russian security and prosperity is the kleptocrat in charge suppressing information and creating an oligarchy of thieves? The man himself actively spouts lies about nuclear weapons, biological research labs and anything he can think of to justify the pretext for invasion so why selectively curate a narrative for him?

Instead or forming conclusions based of the series of events and facts presented to them, people seem to instead dwell on the more fantastical possibilties; that this corrupt dictator is merely worrying about good governance.

 

[akimbo009]

Just on a side note, isn't Putin looking more and more puffy/swollen for each week that passes? Superior vena cava syndrome or superior vena cava obstruction is what it really is starting to look like, esp when you compare pictures from 2020 to now.

He doesn't look like he's gained weight, just like he's poofing up.

Definitely not looking totally well. There was an odd angle of him the other day, and the way he sits, seems like something is totally off with his posture and health. I don't know.

What I do know, is this is thread is poofing up. Poofing up like a crazy cat.

fake edit: yes, that's a Russian Blue cat. MEOW. POOFY.

 

[FunkMiller]

Still don't understand the "nuance" folks.

It‘s a position taken by those who feel that the west is as bad as Russia, and are constantly trying to prove this opinion with poor analysis.

Essentially…

”Ah, yes but America does awful things to, and Putin doesn’t want NATO on his doorstep, because it’s as bad as he is! You see! There’s nuance!”

Nuance only exists in this situation if your agenda is bring western nations down to Russia’s level.

This is, of course, incorrect.

The west gets stuff wrong, has made terrible mistakes, but it is far, FAR better than Russia…or China.

My intention is never to insult or anger people in this thread, but I similarly can’t just let this kind of stuff slide by without saying something. However, I’ve altered my post to Deepbreath as my language was too inflammatory.

 

[strange headache]

The man famous for lifting weights is now lifting some heavy truths.
Listen to Arnold.

 

[Rest]

Every prior step he took in this direction, including the annexation of Crimea and the incursion into eastern Ukraine was met with a weak response from the west. The USA has been more divided than ever and busy tearing itself apart. The fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban was another signal. He thought he would get his way once again.

The thing is, he probably could have if he hadn't sent tanks in. A few more years of stirring shit in Eastern Ukraine and he might have been able to annex those regions with local popular support. He really took a mile when he should have kept inching along.