Dr.D00p
Member
The biggest problem isn't the state of their Nuclear arsenal but rather the apparent fact that the country is run by a bunch of outright nihilists.
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Russia begins Invasion of Ukraine
- Thread starter AfricanKing
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The biggest problem isn't the state of their Nuclear arsenal but rather the apparent fact that the country is run by a bunch of outright nihilists.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
The fascist dictatorship in their government is the biggest problem, of course, but I'm looking to see if any potential scenarios explain their actions in a way other than "they just crazy".
FunkMiller
Member
If Russia is markedly weaker than we realise, then it would explain a more rational psychological reason for this sabre rattling aggression. Nobody powerful feels the need to be threatened by those around them.
Mind you, if this was the case, you’d imagine the west would have a good idea of the weakness, which would beg the question why they haven’t exploited it.
Fear of just one working nuke amongst a pile of broken ones is deterrent enough, I suppose.
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Wildebeest
Member
In terms of game theory, growing up when the Soviet Union was a power, one term I heard a lot on the TV news was "tit-for-tat". They do something bad, we respond. They want to exchange spies, we exchange spies. And so on. Then we had the end of history, peace dividend, and so on. Then with Putler and Putpoleon complex, the language being used were things like "multipolar world" and "red lines".
Way I see it, the Multipolar world is used by the west to describe a world where capitalism is so globally integrated that no one country can control anything. The emerging BRIC countries were such large markets that they could develop their own weather systems, and Europe has to depend even less on relationships with the USA. Like a natural extension of how Europe was no longer on life support from the USA after rebuilding from WW2, and the US became less centrally important as a manufacturing country. But for Russia and China what a multipolar world means is that they no longer have to pretend to listen when lectured to about Democracy, World Peace, or Human Rights. They can build a new world order where concepts like that belong to "the empire of lies".
Red lining and avoiding any conflict are strategies you use to manage your relationship with a narcissist (like Pooty Booty). It is very different to a strategy like "tit-for-tat" which is not effective against someone who will only use dark psychological warfare moves and never de-escalate. If you avoid any conflict with them, then they have fewer chances to "act out" their dark patterns and find ways to be abusive to you. If you set out red lines, then it is clearer that they are the ones being abusive to you, and it is harder for them to make the argument that you are in offence against them or are persecuting them.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Because for better or worse the West does not have a habit of willingly weakening and destabilizing other countries. That's the MO of autocratic regimes like China...and Russia.
GymWolf
Gold Member
I have a question, why people think that other countries\nato are gonna directly intervene if putin decide to attack an european nato ally or to use chemical weapons or small tactical nukes in ukraine?
Him doing that somehow erase from people minds the fact that he can still launch nukes from submarines as a deterrent?
How much can this guy push the limit in reality??
Him doing that somehow erase from people minds the fact that he can still launch nukes from submarines as a deterrent?
How much can this guy push the limit in reality??
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Wildebeest
Member
What would think the US people would demand if Putin detonated a nuke off the coast of New York in US controlled ocean?
funkygunther
Banned
In reality he can push it to NATO member countries having to make some decisions.
GymWolf
Gold Member
That's why i said small tactical nuke in ukraine...
I know that nuking us would be enough.
I'm talking about how much he can push close to his home to force other countries hands...
Edit: ok my mistake, i said nato allies but i wanted to say european nato allies, sorry.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
Walk me through this.
Wildebeest
Member
Do you think that European NATO members are simply less brave than the US, or that they value their lives and freedom less cheaply than people in the US? Why would it be different?
funkygunther
Banned
There are NATO members and Major Non NATO Allies. NATO members have an agreement to mutually defend each other, they don't have that with allies but they do have obligations to some of them. Ukraine is not a Major Non NATO ally. Any escalation that can be seen as a threat to a member or MNNA will need a decision on how to proceed. Russia has already reneged on a treaty this war, there will be tough decisions from NATO member countries on whether to renege on theirs...it will come down to what is politically, strategically and economically in their interest.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Well if your smaller with no real military and practically bordering Russia then yeah .. you would be more cautious.
Kazza
Member
Yeah, all the talk of Russia being "isolated" reminds me of this:
Too many people don't realise that we're not in the 20th century anymore and that all those other countries outside of NA and western Europe matter now. It's us who are in danger of being isolated from the rest of the world.
Wildebeest
Member
Europe doesn't have as much land as the US, but other than that, it is hard to say they have "no real military" or economy.
Thaedolus
Member
Ah well, I guess we should just let the fascists win.Yeah, all the talk of Russia being "isolated" reminds me of this:
Too many people don't realise that we're not in the 20th century anymore and that all those other countries outside of NA and western Europe matter now. It's us who are in danger of being isolated from the rest of the world.
Wildebeest
Member
Very pragmatic. You should take a more positive approach, such as celebrating that we are living in the biblical end times, which only the few of god's elect (namely me) will survive.
ManaByte
Gold Member
RAÏSanÏa
Member
You think the West is in danger of being isolated? You might want to think more about that.Yeah, all the talk of Russia being "isolated" reminds me of this:
Too many people don't realise that we're not in the 20th century anymore and that all those other countries outside of NA and western Europe matter now. It's us who are in danger of being isolated from the rest of the world.
Did you make that image to support your claim all by yourself?
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QSD
Member
Dammit these rising sea levels are really getting out of hand!Yeah, all the talk of Russia being "isolated" reminds me of this:
Too many people don't realise that we're not in the 20th century anymore and that all those other countries outside of NA and western Europe matter now. It's us who are in danger of being isolated from the rest of the world.
Cyberpunkd
Member
1. Russia attacks NATO member
2. NATO goes to war with conventional weapons; if not - see 3
3. Russia launches nukes
4. NATO launches nukes
5. ??????
6. Sticks and stones
Hopefully 3. will not happen since maybe there will always be someone like this guy:
1983 Soviet nuclear false alarm incident - Wikipedia
By that I mean someone will stop Putin before he kills all the Russians.
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AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
I would argue in the Israel, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia, should be included in that. Saudi being the least of those, but they still have major interest with the US.Yeah, all the talk of Russia being "isolated" reminds me of this:
Too many people don't realise that we're not in the 20th century anymore and that all those other countries outside of NA and western Europe matter now. It's us who are in danger of being isolated from the rest of the world.
chromhound
Gold Member
The world would be a better place if no one had nukes lol...
QSD
Member
Kevin Costner is that you?!?
Bernd Lauert
Banned
That's debatable. We might have a lot more hot wars if nobody had nukes.
Azurro
Banned
Yeah, all the talk of Russia being "isolated" reminds me of this:
Too many people don't realise that we're not in the 20th century anymore and that all those other countries outside of NA and western Europe matter now. It's us who are in danger of being isolated from the rest of the world.
That's a dumb hot take. Latin America's economy depends on the west and will continue with the status quo. Africa is so poor that they don't really matter, this is just India smelling an opportunity.
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Kazza
Member
I don't know about Saudi anymore, apparently they're not returning Biden's calls:
Saudi Arabia and UAE leaders ‘decline calls with Biden’ amid fears of oil price spike
The Gulf nations have capacity to pump more oil to ease supply fears but relations with the US have chilled during Biden administration
www.theguardian.com
Israel seems to be taking a pretty neutral stance too:
Israel blocked Ukraine from buying Pegasus spyware, fearing Russia’s anger
Revelation of denial offers new insight into the way Israel’s relationship with Moscow has undermined Ukrainian objectives
www.theguardian.com
I don't have any info about Jordan.
I think it's important to reflect on how others might perceive us and our actions, not just how we see ourselves. Of course, if you asked the average Chinese, Saudi, Indian etc which country they would prefer to immigrate to given the choice, I'm sure 99% would choose the USA/EU over Russia, so their disdain for the West certainly isn't free of hypocrisy, but then who is? The fact is perhaps most of the world would enjoy seeing western countries get their comeuppance one day, whether that be at the hands of Russia or China or someone else.
I'm not saying this is a good thing, I'm just reminding people to ignore MSM fantasies about the "international community". Most countries in the past only stuck with the US for money and security. Now that other countries have more money and military power, that is changing. The multipolar world is coming in the 21st century, whether anyone likes it or not.
Kazza
Member
I wonder what is going through their heads at that moment?
ManaByte
Gold Member
"Russian warship, go fuck yourself!"
Kazza
Member
The U.S. and China Are Battling for Influence in Latin America, and the Pandemic Has Raised the Stakes
As countries in Latin America grapple with a cascade of challenges to their developing economies, they increasingly look not to the North but to the East
Kazza
Member
Exactly! Previously (1989 - recently) those "smelling an opportunity" would have sidled up to the West - now there are other options.
Anyway, I'll stop here before the topic gets too far away from the Ukraine war. Although this is all very relevant background to what's going on there, it's not central to the day-to-day discussion of events.
RAÏSanÏa
Member
They be smelling a weak decaying Russia they could pounce on. Everyone is. It's due to the Russian corruption that's been eroding their nation on display for everyone in the world and now the sanctions.
Putin is a contender for going down in history as the biggest blunderer of the century and potential finalist for the upcoming millennium.
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Azurro
Banned
The only other option is China and they don't do business like the West. Russia has no money and no friends.
Wildebeest
Member
Everyone wants a strong and well-behaved neighbour like Russia on their border. It is understandable that the world would want to turn to them and not just feel that they are in a bad spot and have no choice but to deal with them for their commodities.
That 8 year old kid...... It absolutely wrecks me to see children go through all this shit, because of a madman.
chromhound
Gold Member
BBC interviews soldiers in Irpin.
"Everybody fear for their lives. But most important: it's freedom."
Also in the mix is a Ukrainian female sniper holding her young son between shifts at the front.
"His name is Nikita. He's 18 months old. I will kill to protect his future."
"Everybody fear for their lives. But most important: it's freedom."
Also in the mix is a Ukrainian female sniper holding her young son between shifts at the front.
"His name is Nikita. He's 18 months old. I will kill to protect his future."
Cyberpunkd
Member
Then they will promptly violate this deal in a few years when it doesn't suit them anymore.
Cyberpunkd
Member
- You told me you didn't pour that much oil in there!
- I didn't, that thing is a barely floating PoS
Same here man.
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