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[RAÏSanÏa]

Agreed.

Look up Nato expansions after the 90's and you will see that Russia is surrounded by enemies allied with one another around its borders.

With exception of Belarus, Ukraine, and Moldovia on its east side, they're basically screwed if NATO expands more.

Demilitarized Ukraine means Russia has one the second mass in European continent as a buffer between them and NATO allies.

It's basically that Russia needs to feel secure in its own borders, and the only way it can feel secure is by not having countries around its borders not being allied to powers who would most definitely would like to bring Russia down in the long run.

Honestly, what Russia is doing makes sense.

Its just that realistically, this is fucked up because human lives are at stake.

But if we put in our heads the mind of a world leader, this would be an option on our table for many of us.

It's just whether we decide to be the one to make this kind of choice is where the pool of remaining participants becomes much smaller.

I'm all against the war, but I myself question what I would do if placed into his shoes.

NATO is a defense pact. How would it expand into Russia unless they asked to join?

 

[Insane Metal]

I'm sure this is just hoax. They wouldn't be that insane.

 

[Maxwell Jacob Friedman]

Putin is the living embodiment of little dick syndrome

 

[Ionian]

what a bunch of fucking idiots. This could drastically alter the complexion of this conflict.

If this becomes a global health threat, and Russia is unable/unwilling to contain it, what then?

Absolute fucking madness.

I did laugh as you're right with a nuclear fallout.

Believe you meant complexity though.

complexion - Google Search

www.google.com

Nuclear fallout would kinda melt your complexion away,

 

[Mistake]

Russia absolutely did the wrong thing attacking Ukraine. I think it only weakens their position now.
However, these things don't happen in vacuums.
When the Warsaw pact was broken down the West gave promises to Russia that they would not bring ex Soviet states into NATO as it was viewed by everyone as an act of aggression and went against the ideals of de-esculation and demilitarisation of the European continent. The threat of nuclear war was to be averted at all costs and Russia was a partner in that, and not a adversary.
Fast forward and NATO gave membership to Poland, Hungary, Romania, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania etc, against their promises to Russia.
Russia did nothing.
NATO openly talked about encircling Russia by bringing in these ex soviet states to isolate Russia. Russian read these white papers.
Fast forward to 2014. The leader of Ukraine was a pro Russian guy who wanted to grow stronger ties with Russia like Belarus has done. The West fermented a coup against that Government and overthrew it and it was replaced with a pro EU government. Russia said fuck that and took over Crimea and the Eastern parts of Ukraine that was majority Russan speaking wanted to break away from the pro West part of Ukraine, and this was in the Dombass region.
Now we end up at a point where Ukraine was asking for membership to NATO, to which Russia said that was unacceptable. NATO and the West said that they didn't intend to bring Ukraine into NATO, but they had said the same thing about Poland etc and went against that. So during these talks Russia asked NATO to agree in writing that they would not give membership to Ukraine, to which they said they wouldn't give that assurance. So, now we have what we have.

So what's the issue with Ukraine in NATO? Well, it puts an admitted adversary of Russia right on their border. It brings nuclear weapons right on their border. Many people don't know that membership in NATO includes "nuclear sharing", where nukes can be put in any NATO country. For instance, there is over 100 US owned nukes in NATO countries pointed at Russia.
Now if the roles were reversed, the West would absolutely have an issue with it. In fact it has happened before. Back in 1962, Russia started building missile bases in Cuba, which would be pointed at the US. JFK was president at time and he went full tilt at Russia and Cuba including naval blockades and threats of retaliation against both Cuba and Russia. It's considered the closest the West and Russia came to nuclear war.
So it's not unfair for Russia to have an issue with NATO enlargement and especially the possible inclusion of Ukraine.
The West and NATO could have avoided this if they agreed they would not bring Ukraine into NATO. They called Putins bluff on it, and they got it wrong.
Does this excuse the invasion of Ukraine? No, not in my eyes. Sure Russia has a considerable issue, but their actions put them in a weakened position I think. I might be wrong and maybe Russia gets what it wants at the end of it. But to me life is sacred, and lives will be lost, and people will suffer. This should be avoided.

You’re very well read and explained it better than I could. The west does have a certain habit of overthrowing foreign governments. I remember when the 2014 incident happened, and you could basically go down a checklist of the same exact stuff that occurred in other countries.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Why are the causalities so low?
Have the Russians not sent that many troops in yet?
For all the talk I hear of intense fighting across the country and counterattacks, retaking locations etc, 137 combined civ and military deaths seems really low.

Russia has mainly been using more strategic precision weapons rather than large-scale bombardments and traditional bombing runs.


I think he was trying to take Ukraine with as much of the cities and infrastructure intact as possible that way whatever puppet government they install when they're done would not have to be in an endless rebuilding phase from the start.

 

[dem]

If the brothers stay to fight… wow. The balls on those guys.

New respect level hit.

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

You’re very well read and explained it better than I could. The west does have a certain habit of overthrowing foreign governments

Especially Denmark.

 

[Batiman]

He has helped Russia to grow and many believe he will do that in the future too. Many like him and many do see what he has become. Resentment towards them wont solve anything but strengthens their believe of ill willing west. Best case for this war would be the unpopularity of it inside Russia.

Nah I have no resentment towards them. I don’t even want to bring it Up to them tbh. They’re good people and we get along good.

 

[Atrus]

I don’t understand the attempts to justify Russia’s actions as an inevitable counter to countries joining NATO.

Do we honestly need to believe member states are planning to invade Russia and invite nuclear war?The same nations whose peace dividend has led to lower military readiness? The same nations who even now can flex their economic muscles?

Nations adjacent to Russia choose to focus on NATO membership because Russia is simply a poor neighbour.

 

[Mistake]

I don’t understand the attempts to justify Russia’s actions as an inevitable counter to countries joining NATO.

Do we honestly need to believe member states are planning to invade Russia and invite nuclear war?The same nations whose peace dividend has led to lower military readiness? The same nations who even now can flex their economic muscles?

Nations adjacent to Russia choose to focus on NATO membership because Russia is simply a poor neighbour.

It’s unsurprising to be honest. If some dude in another state convinced all your neighbors to point guns at your house, I can’t imagine you’d be pleased either

 

[Thaedolus]

I don’t understand the attempts to justify Russia’s actions as an inevitable counter to countries joining NATO.

Do we honestly need to believe member states are planning to invade Russia and invite nuclear war?The same nations whose peace dividend has led to lower military readiness? The same nations who even now can flex their economic muscles?

Nations adjacent to Russia choose to focus on NATO membership because Russia is simply a poor neighbour.

Because the Russians just lie and spread their propaganda globally through sophisticated social media manipulation. Unfortunately it’s been incredibly effective and helped divide the west.

 

[3liteDragon]

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

NATO is a defense pact. How would it expand into Russia unless they asked to join?

NATO is not only a defense pact (it's only on paper). The US and other countries use NATO as a way to coerce non-NATO governments to side with them, meddling with their internal affairs. That's exactly what has happened with Ukraine (Russia does the same shit for their side). People talk like NATO just exists and stays there, doesn't do anything.

Would you allow your enemy to live right next to your border? NATO being in Ukraine would create region instability, and we don't even know if it could start false flag operations on Russian territory with the goal of destabilising the region. This is a very tricky situation and it's not simply Putin wanting USSR back. What if Russia became allies with Mexico and started sharing nuclear power with them (because I believe this is something that would be granted to Ukraine in case they joined NATO)? What do you think the US would do? Or if Egypt or Morocco were approached by Russia to become nuclear partners? What do you think Europe would do?

Agreed.

Look up Nato expansions after the 90's and you will see that Russia is surrounded by enemies allied with one another around its borders.

With exception of Belarus, Ukraine, and Moldovia on its east side, they're basically screwed if NATO expands more.

Demilitarized Ukraine means Russia has one the second mass in European continent as a buffer between them and NATO allies.

It's basically that Russia needs to feel secure in its own borders, and the only way it can feel secure is by not having countries around its borders not being allied to powers who would most definitely would like to bring Russia down in the long run.

Honestly, what Russia is doing makes sense.

Its just that realistically, this is fucked up because human lives are at stake.

But if we put in our heads the mind of a world leader, this would be an option on our table for many of us.

It's just whether we decide to be the one to make this kind of choice is where the pool of remaining participants becomes much smaller.

I'm all against the war, but I myself question what I would do if placed into his shoes.

Basically. People can condemn what Russia is doing while being rational about this. It fucking sucks that Ukraine has to go through this shit because of bigger powers meddling with their internal affairs, but Russia has its reasons to do so.

 

[CGiRanger]

As the Chernobyl reports were coming in I kept of course thinking to this as I was looking for the measurements

 

[Taxexemption]

Because the Russians just lie and spread their propaganda globally through sophisticated social media manipulation. Unfortunately it’s been incredibly effective and helped divide the west.

Or maybe after decades of war on foreign soil for no gains many Americans would look for any reason to avoid it. At this point if Biden declared war on hell, many Americans might develop sympathy for the devil.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Like someone mentioned earlier. Vehicle activity kicking up irradiated dirt/dust and debris can cause this spike.

 

[Jsisto]

The Soviet Union is long gone. NATO in its current form exists solely to limit Russian Influence and hinder its entry into the world economy. To add another real world analogy, think of it from a business perspective. You’re a struggling retailer and Walmart opens 10 stores around you to choke you out of existence. What the fuck do you do? We can condemn Putins violent actions, perhaps there was another way, but to suggest this was completely unprovoked and we are innocent in all of it is naive.

 

[Thaedolus]

Or maybe after decades of war on foreign soil for no gains many Americans would look for any reason to avoid it. At this point if Biden declared war on hell, many Americans might develop sympathy for the devil.

I could understand someone having the opinion that this isn’t our problem or our fight, but trying to excuse what is happening and say it isn’t despicable isn’t necessary to make that argument.

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

NATO is not only a defense pact (it's only on paper). The US and other countries use NATO as a way to coerce non-NATO governments to side with them, meddling with their internal affairs. That's exactly what has happened with Ukraine (Russia does the same shit for their side). People talk like NATO just exists and stays there, doesn't do anything.

Would you allow your enemy to live right next to your border? NATO being in Ukraine would create region instability, and we don't even know if it could start false flag operations on Russian territory with the goal of destabilising the region. This is a very tricky situation and it's not simply Putin wanting USSR back. What if Russia became allies with Mexico and started sharing nuclear power with them (because I believe this is something that would be granted to Ukraine in case they joined NATO)? What do you think the US would do? Or if Egypt or Morocco were approached by Russia to become nuclear partners? What do you think Europe would do?

Basically. People can condemn what Russia is doing while being rational about this. It fucking sucks that Ukraine has to go through this shit because of bigger powers meddling with their internal affairs, but Russia has its reasons to do so.

While I disagree on many points, thank you for taking the time to genuinely respond. There's a sense of something within there or something that could point the way to peace.

 

[Jsisto]

I’d also like to add that since the end of the Cold War, The US is responsible for infinitely more death and despair of innocent people across the globe than Putin could ever dream of. Again, being absolutely clear, not defending him here, but let’s not pretend that we always have the best interest of the world at heart.

 

[Thaedolus]

Gee I wonder why Ukraine would have interest in joining a defense pact…

 

[3liteDragon]

 

[DeepEnigma]

Gee I wonder why Ukraine would have interest in joining a defense pact…

“Predicted”

 

[KingGhidorah]

I think humanitarian crisis will be the next challenge. As the war goes on, basic needs will become scarce. There are still tens of millions people trapped in the country, while food production, export/import, etc are cut drastically

 

[Kittehkraken]

Gee I wonder why Ukraine would have interest in joining a defense pact…

That looks like a plane going down.

 

[Taxexemption]

I could understand someone having the opinion that this isn’t our problem or our fight, but trying to excuse what is happening and say it isn’t despicable isn’t necessary to make that argument.

If this then that. If it's despicable we should do something. If it's what nations do, then who cares, and lets all get over ourselves. If you think this is deeply wrong but would do nothing, what does that make you?


The argument that something bad is happening is not different from the argument about whether you should do something if you think you have any kind of moral virtue. If you think the outcome of intervention is bad, then it makes sense to defend non-intervention, and to argue that what is happening is either normal or not a big deal.


Regardless, we had to make a lot of bad decisions to get here. If anything I would argue that the American people are pro-war by default, and had to be coerced by a series of bad wars that were not well thought out into adopting an anti-war sentiment. We did dumb wars that were not well explained and had bad outcomes, we are sick of it.

 

[ManaByte]

I’d also like to add that since the end of the Cold War, The US is responsible for infinitely more death and despair of innocent people across the globe than Putin could ever dream of. Again, being absolutely clear, not defending him here, but let’s not pretend that we always have the best interest of the world at heart.

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

While I disagree on many points, thank you for taking the time to genuinely respond. There's a sense of something within there or something that could point the way to peace.

It's totally ok to disagree, and I appreciate when a honest discussion takes place.

I hope peace comes soon. Ukrainian people, hell, even Russian people, shouldn't go through this. There's no winner in this conflict, if anything will just create more instability.

 

[Catphish]

I did laugh as you're right with a nuclear fallout.

Believe you meant complexity though.

complexion - Google Search

www.google.com

Nuclear fallout would kinda melt your complexion away,

No, I meant complexion. 2nd definition.

2. the general aspect or character of something.

 

[Ionian]

The Soviet Union is long gone. NATO in its current form exists solely to limit Russian Influence and hinder its entry into the world economy. To add another real world analogy, think of it from a business perspective. You’re a struggling retailer and Walmart opens 10 stores around you to choke you out of existence. What the fuck do you do? We can condemn Putins violent actions, perhaps there was another way, but to suggest this was completely unprovoked and we are innocent in all of it is naive.

Dude I like you but comparing Wallmart opening stores to this and "We can condemn Putins violent actions, perhaps there was another way, but to suggest this was completely unprovoked and we are innocent in all of it is naive.

Do you realise this isn't America?

 

[Ionian]

No, I meant complexion. 2nd definition.

2. the general aspect or character of something.

Shit isn't used normally by native speakers unless academic.

 

[Catphish]

Shit isn't used normally by native speakers unless academic.

wtf? I know how to speak the fucking language, mate. Give it a rest.

 

[Thaedolus]

Give ‘em hell lads

 

[Ionian]

wtf? I know how to speak the fucking language, mate. Give it a rest.

Hardly a need for that mate. LOL.

Cool your jets before we both risk bans.

 

[Catphish]

Hardly a need for that mate. LOL.

Cool your jets before we both risk bans.

Cool your own fucking jets. Gonna call me out in this thread, of all threads, to judge my English, and then, after I explain myself to you, you're gonna go a step further and say my "shit" still isn't used properly?

Then come back like I'm the dick when I'm not having it?

Take a fucking hike.

 

[Kittehkraken]

Ukrainian T-64's.

 

[Craig of War]

Give ‘em hell lads

What Missile are Ukraine using? are they using Russian own Missile against them

 

[Ionian]

Cool your own fucking jets. Gonna call me out in this thread, of all threads, to judge my English, and then, after I explain myself to you, you're gonna go a step further and say my "shit" still isn't used properly?

Then come back like I'm the dick when I'm not having it?

Take a fucking hike.

Very adult of you.

Block me please. OK?

 

[Catphish]

Very adult of you.

Block me please. OK?

This fucking guy. Just keeps going. You're the one that kicked it off, bud. Block me.

 

[ManaByte]

What Missile are Ukraine using? are they using Russian own Missile against them

We gave them a shitload of defensive weapons over the last few years. They're in a MUCH better defensive position than they were in 2014 with Crimea.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Breathe fellas, we’re all just discussing in here.

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

So Putin gave a speech. If you can without any bias, I recommend watching it.

Spoiler: Putin's Speech

Many things he says are bs or half true, but I think it does show what's the intention here. It's a bit long, I've watched everything, and I still condone condemn this attack. But he did raise some good points which should be open for discussion on their veracity.

 

[Kittehkraken]

I was right that Russia is using old soviet era tanks from its stockpile. Any modern anti tank weapon will make short work of those tanks. They don't even have basic ERA on the sides....

 

[Catphish]

So Putin gave a speech. If you can without any bias, I recommend watching it.

Spoiler: Putin's Speech

Many things he says are bs or half true, but I think it does show what's the intention here. It's a bit long, I've watched everything, and I still condone this attack. But he did raise some good points which should be open for discussion on their veracity.

I think you might mean 'condemn'?

I don't know if i can do 27 minutes of that man. Can you give us the Cliffs Notes?

 

[Jsisto]

Dude I like you but comparing Wallmart opening stores to this and "We can condemn Putins violent actions, perhaps there was another way, but to suggest this was completely unprovoked and we are innocent in all of it is naive.

Do you realise this isn't America?

It was an analogy. I think everyone knows I wasn't insinuating the two things are of similar scale. I assume most of the posters here are American and would understand the point I was trying to make.

Yes, I know Ukraine isn't America.

 

[Ionian]

It was an analogy. I think everyone knows I wasn't insinuating the two things are of similar scale. I assume most of the posters here are American and would understand the point I was trying to make.

Yes, I know Ukraine isn't America.

McDonalds would have been better suited. Not an offense to you in the slightest, just is more universally recognized across the globe. WalMart is known but really has a small presence in Europe. 'Spar' if anything would be the option.

Edit:

Tried to include a link but the URL was HUGE. Just google Walmart -Europe. Then Google Spar -Europe.

EDIT2: worked the nightshift for many of the main locations. Sucked balls but I was a teen and needed to eat.

 

[Craig of War]

We gave them a shitload of defensive weapons over the last few years. They're in a MUCH better defensive position than they were in 2014 with Crimea.

Good send them the latest and greatest so that they can have a fighting chance against these Russian commie

 

[Madflavor]

*Bad man invades country*
The World: "Hey stop that. You're killing innocents."
Bad man: "No."
The World: "Stop it or we'll step in to help them."
Bad man: "Then I'll nuke you and take you all with me."
The World: "Oh....ok."
Bad man 2: "Oh Bad Man 1 is getting away with this? I'm gonna invade a country too."
The World: "Hey stop tha-"
Bad man 2: "Nukes"
The World: "B-but...oh...ok sorry."

Lol what a great fucking world we live in.

 

[ManaByte]

I still condone this attack