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Russia begins Invasion of Ukraine

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I think you might mean 'condemn'? ;)

I don't know if i can do 27 minutes of that man. Can you give us the Cliffs Notes?
Yeah, sorry, English is not my first language, and I actually know the meaning of both, but for some reason always mix them.

From what I've seen, in a nutshell:

- Putin is taking USSR mistakes during the WW2 as a reason for these actions. He talks about how first they appeased to the aggressor and later the same aggressor attacked without any declaration of war. This led to a bloodshed and many Russian lives lost.
- He talks on how the US expands only looking for their own gain, ignoring other countries interests.
- Talks about the bombings in Belgrade
- Talks about leading NATO countries supporting terrorists on eastern countries to fight against Russia, countries that have a very strong connection to Russia's history. He finds this disgusting and states that they have tried to calm down the confronts in a peaceful way
- Talks about on how Donbass has been a zone of conflict against pro-Russian people, with the Ukrainian government support this de-russification of the zone
- Russia had to step in in Crimea and Sevastopol because of how the region is majority Russian, otherwise Russia would have never invaded
- Says that this is not made to take away Ukraine from Ukrainian people. It's about cleaning the country of people using Ukraine as a mean of destabilising Russia
- He again states that this is for Russia's ability to defend themselves from the US and other threatening NATO countries
- Also talks about the huge rise of Nazi in Ukraine, connecting it again to what happened in WW2
- Saying that the Ukraine government has made a promise of fighting for Ukrainians and not to feed the western war machine against neighbouring countries
- He's saying that Ukrainian military can just lay down arms and go back to their families, no harm will come to them
- Russia's future stands with its multi-ethnicity

People might see this as propaganda. Others might not. But it's always good to listen to he has to say, even though you don't agree.
 
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Ionian

Member
*Bad man invades country*
The World: "Hey stop that. You're killing innocents."
Bad man: "No."
The World: "Stop it or we'll step in to help them."
Bad man: "Then I'll nuke you and take you all with me."
The World: "Oh....ok."
Bad man 2: "Oh Bad Man 1 is getting away with this? I'm gonna invade a country too."
The World: "Hey stop tha-"
Bad man 2: "Nukes"
The World: "B-but...oh...ok sorry."

Lol what a great fucking world we live in.

Yup history repeating and what you said is horribly correct. Though humorous in a "holy fuck he's right" type of way,
 
*Bad man invades country*
The World: "Hey stop that. You're killing innocents."
Bad man: "No."
The World: "Stop it or we'll step in to help them."
Bad man: "Then I'll nuke you and take you all with me."
The World: "Oh....ok."
Bad man 2: "Oh Bad Man 1 is getting away with this? I'm gonna invade a country too."
The World: "Hey stop tha-"
Bad man 2: "Nukes"
The World: "B-but...oh...ok sorry."

Lol what a great fucking world we live in.
Yeah it sucks but what can you do they have Nukes unless you want to risk destroying the Planet and wiping out our existence
 
Idiot Reaction GIF by Coach Josh
Man, it was a mistake. English is not my first language and I still occasionally fuck up.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member

“ When the commander of the Russian cruiser instructed the Ukrainian soldiers stationed on the island to surrender, or else be fired upon, the reply was 'Go fuck yourself' (Russian: 'иди нахуй').[5][6]”
The audio is out. You hear the Ukrainian guys say “Should I tell him to go fuck himself, just in case?” Then they crank up the volume and say “Russian warship, go fuck yourself.”
 

Vestal

Junior Member
Real talk... What is the end game here? A permanent military occupation until they install a puppet government? Until yesterday I really didn't think he would go all the way to Kiev, much less right away. But fuck, here we are.
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
*Bad man invades country*
The World: "Hey stop that. You're killing innocents."
Bad man: "No."
The World: "Stop it or we'll step in to help them."
Bad man: "Then I'll nuke you and take you all with me."
The World: "Oh....ok."
Bad man 2: "Oh Bad Man 1 is getting away with this? I'm gonna invade a country too."
The World: "Hey stop tha-"
Bad man 2: "Nukes"
The World: "B-but...oh...ok sorry."

Lol what a great fucking world we live in.
Thing is powerful countries don't really invades places anymore, economic warfare is much more effective. It's like a hedge fund manager trying to make money by robbing a bank.
 

Ionian

Member
Real talk... What is the end game here? A permanent military occupation until they install a puppet government? Until yesterday I really didn't think he would go all the way to Kiev, much less right away. But fuck, here we are.

My dumbass opinion, nothing will happen. Europe will take a back-step and Putin will laugh and tell his cronies "I told ya!".

What happens after that is more important.

Imagine an Oprah situation "You get a sanction! you get a sanction! Everyone gets a sanction!", whilst the West cheers and Russia laughs,
 

Celcius

°Temp. member
*Bad man invades country*
The World: "Hey stop that. You're killing innocents."
Bad man: "No."
The World: "Stop it or we'll step in to help them."
Bad man: "Then I'll nuke you and take you all with me."
The World: "Oh....ok."
Bad man 2: "Oh Bad Man 1 is getting away with this? I'm gonna invade a country too."
The World: "Hey stop tha-"
Bad man 2: "Nukes"
The World: "B-but...oh...ok sorry."

Lol what a great fucking world we live in.
I really wish there were country like a real Wakanda or something that could call his bluff and go in anyway, and have a way to disarm or disable the nukes.

If someone did step in and say “go ahead, use them!”, would china step in to help Russia at that point?
 
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ManaByte

Gold Member
Real talk... What is the end game here? A permanent military occupation until they install a puppet government? Until yesterday I really didn't think he would go all the way to Kiev, much less right away. But fuck, here we are.
Putin wants all of the NATO member states that were added in 1997 back.

He‘ll take Ukraine and then launch an attack on Lithuania since Belarus is his puppet, and then we’re all fucked because that will trigger Article 5.
 
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Catphish

Member
Yeah, sorry, English is not my first language, and I actually know the meaning of both, but for some reason always mix them.

From what I've seen, in a nutshell:

- Putin is taking USSR mistakes during the WW2 as a reason for these actions. He talks about how first they appeased to the aggressor and later the same aggressor attacked without any declaration of war. This led to a bloodshed and many Russian lives lost.
- He talks on how the US expands only looking for their own gain, ignoring other countries interests.
- Talks about the bombings in Belgrade
- Talks about leading NATO countries supporting terrorists on eastern countries to fight against Russia, countries that have a very strong connection to Russia's history. He finds this disgusting and states that they have tried to calm down the confronts in a peaceful way
- Talks about on how Donbass has been a zone of conflict against pro-Russian people, with the Ukrainian government support this de-russification of the zone
- Russia had to step in in Crimea and Sevastopol because of how the region is majority Russian, otherwise Russia would have never invaded
- Says that this is not made to take away Ukraine from Ukrainian people. It's about cleaning the country of people using Ukraine as a mean of destabilising Russia
- He again states that this is for Russia's ability to defend themselves from the US and other threatening NATO countries
- Also talks about the huge rise of Nazi in Ukraine, connecting it again to what happened in WW2
- Saying that the Ukraine government has made a promise of fighting for Ukrainians and not to feed the western war machine against neighbouring countries
- He's saying that Ukrainian military can just lay down arms and go back to their families, no harm will come to them
- Russia's future stands with its multi-ethnicity

People might see this as propaganda. Others might not. But it's always good to listen to he has to say, even though you don't agree.
I decided to watch the whole thing. Thank you for posting it.

There's a lot to digest here. On one hand, he has a legitimate beef about NATO's eastward expansion. And I don't know enough about Ukraine to know with any amount of confidence what degree the West has involved itself there, or to what end. I do know that if something similar to the Warsaw Pact were slowly encroaching around the US, I'd certainly feel uncomfortable about it.

His calling out of the West's actions in the middle east over the last 20 years are, at least at face value, valid.

However, all his talk about freedom and justice and independence is utterly laughable, and really makes the whole bit stink of propaganda, which has always been a Russian specialty.

I dunno. I'm no expert on foreign affairs or world politics. I can only guess at what forces truly move the political world. But I'm inclined to believe, at least somewhat, that this mess is partially a result of the West trying to see how far it can push. I want to believe that this is big, evil Russia gobbling litte freedom-loving Ukraine because of its location and strategic importance, but I know it's not that simple.

This shit rarely is.
 
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Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
So Putin gave a speech. If you can without any bias, I recommend watching it.


Many things he says are bs or half true, but I think it does show what's the intention here. It's a bit long, I've watched everything, and I still condone condemn this attack. But he did raise some good points which should be open for discussion on their veracity.

I cannot express to you in words how hard I'm going to pass on that. There is literally no excuse, no context, or any kind of justification that makes literally even 1% of what Putin has done here okay.


Not. Even. A. Little. Bit.


Putin is now officially a war criminal. He has invaded a sovereign nation under the pretext of "peacekeeping" despite waging war. He has openly spoke of some insane delusion of restoring the Russian Empire, openly said that Ukraine is not actually a country, unilaterally decided that an entire section of Ukraine did not actually belong to Ukraine, and then proceeded to use that as a pretext of getting all of his forces where they needed to be to completely devastate the country. We are seeing wartime images out of Europe that have not been seen since literally World War II because of his insanity.


Putin can go fuck himself. I don't give a shit what his reasoning is.
 
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Ionian

Member
Man, it was a mistake. English is not my first language and I still occasionally fuck up.

Man the people I met in Rotterdam put to shame native English speakers. I was in absolute awe of their use of the language. (Of the people I met).

Humble and beyond fluent. I learned simply listening to them and I'm a native English speaker.

Also learned the frites with mayonnaise. Sounded disgusting but once I tried them ...
 

Sega Orphan

Banned
You’re very well read and explained it better than I could. The west does have a certain habit of overthrowing foreign governments. I remember when the 2014 incident happened, and you could basically go down a checklist of the same exact stuff that occurred in other countries.
Yep, all governments do what they think is in their best interests, and many wars have been started due to a country thinking their security is at risk. Vietnam and Iraq are two that come to mind off the bat.
But, it's always the basic civilians who pay the price in blood and death.
 
Yeah, sorry, English is not my first language, and I actually know the meaning of both, but for some reason always mix them.

From what I've seen, in a nutshell:

- Putin is taking USSR mistakes during the WW2 as a reason for these actions. He talks about how first they appeased to the aggressor and later the same aggressor attacked without any declaration of war. This led to a bloodshed and many Russian lives lost.
- He talks on how the US expands only looking for their own gain, ignoring other countries interests.
- Talks about the bombings in Belgrade
- Talks about leading NATO countries supporting terrorists on eastern countries to fight against Russia, countries that have a very strong connection to Russia's history. He finds this disgusting and states that they have tried to calm down the confronts in a peaceful way
- Talks about on how Donbass has been a zone of conflict against pro-Russian people, with the Ukrainian government support this de-russification of the zone
- Russia had to step in in Crimea and Sevastopol because of how the region is majority Russian, otherwise Russia would have never invaded
- Says that this is not made to take away Ukraine from Ukrainian people. It's about cleaning the country of people using Ukraine as a mean of destabilising Russia
- He again states that this is for Russia's ability to defend themselves from the US and other threatening NATO countries
- Also talks about the huge rise of Nazi in Ukraine, connecting it again to what happened in WW2
- Saying that the Ukraine government has made a promise of fighting for Ukrainians and not to feed the western war machine against neighbouring countries
- He's saying that Ukrainian military can just lay down arms and go back to their families, no harm will come to them
- Russia's future stands with its multi-ethnicity

People might see this as propaganda. Others might not. But it's always good to listen to he has to say, even though you don't agree.

What a load of horseshit!!!

NONE of those, or even accumulative of all those points justify the full invasion of a sovereign nation
 
Putin can fuck himself off a cliff. I don't give a shit what his reasoning is.


It's interesting. If Putin stopped after his initial move, what Biden a month earlier called a "minor incursion" into Donetsk, it would have put us in an objectively odd position.

There would have been no moral difference when I try to objectively think about it between the Russians protecting ethnic-Russians in Donetsk and NATO protecting ethnic-Albanian Kosovars in 1998. Both induced the use of airstrikes by the major power in their sphere of influence (Russia and NATO, respectively) with a follow-on peacekeeping force (KFOR in NATO's case) to protect the minorities right to language culture, security and safety. We know of the ethnic cleansing by the Serbs in the West, but there are stories of the same in the Donets Basin and it's been a low-level hot war since 2014 regardless.

But this fucking psychopath just had to go insane and invade the rest of Ukraine as to set-up a Russian satellite puppet government. Totally crazy stuff, just indefensible. He should burn.
 

Mistake

Member
Except for the last page, I think this thread has been very productive.

How long does everyone think this conflict will last?
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Except for the last page, I think this thread has been very productive.

How long does everyone think this conflict will last?
It all depends on Kyiv.

If the Ukrainians can hold out it could take weeks, but as soon as the capital falls then it could be days.
 

Celcius

°Temp. member
someone said that even if Russia was using nukes on Ukraine, using chemicals on the citizens, etc… the US still wouldn’t jump in because of WW3. Is that pretty much true?
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
someone said that even if Russia was using nukes on Ukraine, using chemicals on the citizens, etc… the US still wouldn’t jump in because of WW3. Is that pretty much true?
Not even close. If nuclear weapons fly then all bets are off. Ukraine is next door to Poland. Any kind of nuclear or biological attack on Ukraine would be a direct threat to NATO immediately as a result. The response would be swift.



But it's a moot point because Russia will not use nukes or biological weapons.
 

Catphish

Member
Except for the last page, I think this thread has been very productive.

How long does everyone think this conflict will last?
I think that depends on how deeply the West is willing to bankroll the Ukrainian defense effort, and how much Ukraine wants Russia out.

We'll really see, I think, what the Ukrainian people want here. I suspect the West will pump in money and weapons as long as Ukraine has the will to use them.

But when either materiel or willpower expire, that'll be it.
 
I decided to watch the whole thing. Thank you for posting it.

There's a lot to digest here. On one hand, he has a legitimate beef about NATO's eastward expansion. And I don't know enough about Ukraine to know with any amount of confidence what degree the West has involved itself there, or to what end. I do know that if something similar to the Warsaw Pact were slowly encroaching around the US, I'd certainly feel uncomfortable about it.

His calling out of the West's actions in the middle east over the last 20 years are, at least at face value, valid.

However, all his talk about freedom and justice and independence is utterly laughable, and really makes the whole bit stink of propaganda, which has always been a Russian specialty.

I dunno. I'm no expert on foreign affairs or world politics. I can only guess at what forces truly move the political world. But I'm inclined to believe, at least somewhat, that this mess is partially a result of the West trying to see how far it can push. I want to believe that this is big, evil Russia gobbling litte freedom-loving Ukraine because of its location and strategic importance, but I know it's not that simple.

This shit rarely is.
Some of the reasons there can be, like you said, valid. But overall there's a lot of bs in the middle as well. And yeah, NATO has been pushing to see what they can get away with, looks like Putin had enough. Sucks that Ukraine is now suffering because of it.

But it's still wise to see what the other side has to say.
I cannot express to you in words how hard I'm going to pass on that. There is literally no excuse, no context, or any kind of justification that makes literally even 1% of what Putin has done here okay.


Not. Even. A. Little. Bit.


Putin is now officially a war criminal. He has invaded a sovereign nation under the pretext of "peacekeeping" despite waging war. He has openly spoke of some insane delusion of restoring the Russian Empire, openly said that Ukraine is not actually a country, unilaterally decided that an entire section of Ukraine did not actually belong to Ukraine, and then proceeded to use that as a pretext of getting all of his forces where they needed to be to completely devastate the country. We are seeing wartime images out of Europe that have not been seen since literally World War II because of his insanity.


Putin can go fuck himself. I don't give a shit what his reasoning is.
Ok, fair enough. Just posted for those interested.
Man the people I met in Rotterdam put to shame native English speakers. I was in absolute awe of their use of the language. (Of the people I met).

Humble and beyond fluent. I learned simply listening to them and I'm a native English speaker.

Also learned the frites with mayonnaise. Sounded disgusting but once I tried them ...
I've been learning English for 24 years now, I use it daily. Sometimes the pronunciation of some words match some completely different words in other languages, creating this confusion in my head. It's a common thing to happen when you know more than 1 language. I know 4, including a bit of Chinese and I've lost count the amount of times I switch between languages when talking to my Portuguese parents, my Chinese girlfriend or just posting in English on NeoGaf. It's like my brain can't decide which one to use hahahaha
What a load of horseshit!!!

NONE of those, or even accumulative of all those points justify the full invasion of a sovereign nation
Nothing justifies a full invasion. Nothing. Even if he was right on what he said, it still doesn't give him the right to do so.
Yeah a lot of people will see it as propaganda because that is literally what it is.
Once again, Russia and China have propaganda, while the US has completely unbiased news, am I saying it right?
 

Catphish

Member
someone said that even if Russia was using nukes on Ukraine, using chemicals on the citizens, etc… the US still wouldn’t jump in because of WW3. Is that pretty much true?
No one outside of the Pentagon knows the answer to the nuke question. If Russia uses a tactical nuke in Kyiv, does that warrant a nuclear response, likely resulting in further nuclear exchange and ultimate nuclear war? Maybe. Maybe not.

Chemicals, well, that was once a "red line" drawn by Obama in Syria, if I remember correctly. And when the line was crossed, little of consequence was the reply.

I'd say it depends on the scale as to which these things were used, and whatever the DC braintrust concludes after its cost-benefit analysis.

However, this is strictly regarding a US-only response. A NATO or coalition-type response might look different. Since Europe is more directly threatened by these kinds of actions, they might feel differently than the US.
 
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miles118

Member
I decided to watch the whole thing. Thank you for posting it.

There's a lot to digest here. On one hand, he has a legitimate beef about NATO's eastward expansion. And I don't know enough about Ukraine to know with any amount of confidence what degree the West has involved itself there, or to what end. I do know that if something similar to the Warsaw Pact were slowly encroaching around the US, I'd certainly feel uncomfortable about it.

His calling out of the West's actions in the middle east over the last 20 years are, at least at face value, valid.

However, all his talk about freedom and justice and independence is utterly laughable, and really makes the whole bit stink of propaganda, which has always been a Russian specialty.

I dunno. I'm no expert on foreign affairs or world politics. I can only guess at what forces truly move the political world. But I'm inclined to believe, at least somewhat, that this mess is partially a result of the West trying to see how far it can push. I want to believe that this is big, evil Russia gobbling litte freedom-loving Ukraine because of its location and strategic importance, but I know it's not that simple.

This shit rarely is.
Even Nato encroching is not a valid reason to me. Nato never had any ambitions to attack Russia. They never had any violent propaganda against Russia nor did they raise an army to conquer it. The whole accord was about denfence againt the 2nd strongest army in the world. Putin saying he had no choise was a whole lot of b*llshit.
 
I think that depends on how deeply the West is willing to bankroll the Ukrainian defense effort, and how much Ukraine wants Russia out.

I would add to your statement that it depends if Ukraine survives long enough to resupply them. It will take on the order of a week or more to organize a shipment of arms and this administration isn't exactly known for efficiency.

That said, an example of what can be done is Operation Nickel Grass during the 1973 Yom Kippur War where over 32 days the US Airforce supplied Israel with 22,000 tons of tanks, artillery and ammunition to keep on fighting the Arabs.

So, it's possible, but you need resolve and action. I know we're not suppose to get political, but if the depth of todays sanctions (getting all onboard with SWIFT anyone?!) is any indication of American resolve, Ukraine is fucked.
 

Catphish

Member
Even Nato encroching is not a valid reason to me. Nato never had any ambitions to attack Russia. They never had any violent propaganda against Russia nor did they raise an army to conquer it. The whole accord was about denfence againt the 2nd strongest army in the world. Putin saying he had no choise was a whole lot of b*llshit.
Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, it was a betrayal of what the West promised after the fall of the USSR. We did promise no NATO expansion. And then we did it anyway. Multiple times.

edit: Actually, I'm going to pull up from stating that this is an absolute fact. It may not be. In fact, it might be complete bullshit, upon further reading. So take it as potentially such.
 
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Catphish

Member
I would add to your statement that it depends if Ukraine survives long enough to resupply them. It will take on the order of a week or more to organize a shipment of arms and this administration isn't exactly known for efficiency.

That said, an example of what can be done is Operation Nickel Grass during the 1973 Yom Kippur War where over 32 days the US Airforce supplied Israel with 22,000 tons of tanks, artillery and ammunition to keep on fighting the Arabs.

So, it's possible, but you need resolve and action. I know we're not suppose to get political, but if the depth of todays sanctions (getting all onboard with SWIFT anyone?!) is any indication of American resolve, Ukraine is fucked.
That's fair.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Once again, Russia and China have propaganda, while the US has completely unbiased news, am I saying it right?
You cannot actually be sitting there with a straight face comparing the US media and their usual petty political nonsense with the outright bullshit that Putin and his propaganda arm is peddling right now to excuse what they have done.


You just can't. There is no one outside of Russia who has grown up on this kind of propaganda that could be that dense. I refuse to believe that you're being honest and genuine right now. You are either intentionally ignoring the facts or you are just trying to get reactions.
 
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Vestal

Junior Member
Putin wants all of the NATO member states that were added in 1997 back.

He‘ll take Ukraine and then launch an attack on Lithuania since Belarus is his puppet, and then we’re all fucked because that will trigger Article 5.
Do you honestly believe that his intentions are to start a Nuclear War? I mean that is the eventuality if Russia or any Nuclear state triggers article 5.
 

miles118

Member
You cannot actually be sitting there with a straight face comparing the US media and their usual petty political nonsense with the outright bullshit that Putin and his propaganda arm is peddling right now to excuse what they have done.


You just can't. There is no one outside of Russia who has grown up on this kind of propaganda that could be that dense. I refuse to believe that you're being honest and genuine right now. You are either intentionally ignoring the facts or you are just trying to get reactions.
Actually I am outside the US right now and when I watch Fox News I have the impression of watching a propaganda machine. Nothing but false information. Pot calling the kettle black with "fake news".
 
Do you honestly believe that his intentions are to start a Nuclear War? I mean that is the eventuality if Russia or any Nuclear state triggers article 5.

I doubt that will happen. You know Nuclear war will cripple EU. Russia will throw whatever they got in return US and other major nuclear powers in EU will blow Russia to hell as well.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Full demilitarization of Ukraine and to make sure they can't become NATO ally or can possess any threat to Russia since they share border with Russia
Which is obviously nonsense. It would be like the US invading Cuba because of Cuba being a possible threat to the US.


Putin said himself that he just wants the old Russian territories back.
 

Doczu

Member
Can we stop referring to every enemy of the west as insane/unhinged/madman/deranged. What’s going on is evil, wrong, whatever you want to call it…but geopolitics is complicated, and there is undoubtedly a rationale behind what he is doing. Putin is not going to throw away his entire country doing something completely irrational like attack a NATO country unprovoked the same way Kim Jong Un won’t. Let’s not lose our heads.
THANK YOU!
This is tiring to eplain every time. He has an agenda and most likely his agenda is to secure his western borders by beating the fuck out of Ukraine to make them understand that they were, are and will be in Russia's sphere of influence. Their role is to slow any possible NATO march, just like we (Poland) are NATO's first line of defense and any sane person here understands that in any case of war we are a battleground to be used...

That's why Putin used the good old commie speach about removing nazies from Ukraine. The end goal is to remove the president with the government and replace them with a puppet state. I can vet anyone for it.
 
It would be like the US invading Cuba because of Cuba being a possible threat to the US.

America did invade Cuba. The Bay of Pigs Invasion was financed and planned by the US Government. The consequences of that failed invasion led to the Cuban Missile Crisis which was as close the world ever came to all out nuclear war. Its one of the biggest fuck ups in US history.
 
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miles118

Member
Full demilitarization of Ukraine and to make sure they can't become NATO ally or can possess any threat to Russia since they share border with Russia
Ukraine never had any intention to invade Russia. Even if Ukraine joined Nato, do you think other nations would support Ukraine going after Russia ? Nato never had any ambition against Russia. The proof is right here. Nato had the perfect excuse to attack Russia : save ukrain's innocent lives. But even now they do nothing. They have no ambition towards Russia. Russia however have proven time and time again that they like attacking their neirbors. They have also demonstrate the necessity of NATO to defend against Warmongering Russia. Anyone buying into the nato encroching towards Russia speech is buying into Russia's prpaganda. They only give the impression that they are encroching towards Russia because more and more are joining Nato to defend themselves against Putin the warmongerer.
 
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You cannot actually be sitting there with a straight face comparing the US media and their usual petty political nonsense with the outright bullshit that Putin and his propaganda arm is peddling right now to excuse what they have done.


You just can't. There is no one outside of Russia who has grown up on this kind of propaganda that could be that dense. I refuse to believe that you're being honest and genuine right now. You are either intentionally ignoring the facts or you are just trying to get reactions.
Man, I've seen what the US propaganda can do, I've heard and seen countless stories where the truth goes against US propaganda. So don't come at me with that bullshit of "US only has petty political nonsense" when their fucking propaganda has created turmoil and spread hate in places far away from your comfy place. Every fucking country has propaganda, but seriously denying how destructive US propaganda is, that's ridiculous. The US is already trying to export their propaganda directly into my country, with the recent case being CNN Portugal trying to stir shit with China and having my government deny any type of involvement in such news. That's how ridiculous it is.

People like you don't want to hear facts, they're not open to discussion, they want things to appease to their feelings, to make posts like "pray for x" on Instagram to make them seem like the good guys. Cut that shit, and listen to both sides, even if you don't agree, even if they're completely wrong. It doesn't make you a lesser human or a brainwashed person, on the contrary, it makes you someone trustworthy to do the right call/judgement. I condemn everything Putin is doing, I know that he is wrong, but even I have the balls to open a Youtube link where the person currently the world hates tries to explain his reasoning. Has a lot of BS inside but also raises good points that would need further investigation.

Ukrainian people are suffering right now, going through shit that you and I never been through, but have you ever thought that maybe ALL OF THIS could have been avoided? That maybe the country was played by two superpowers leading to this shit? This is exactly what people are discussing, and you can hate Putin all you want, just like I do, but man, saying that the US has no propaganda compared to Russia is damn laughable.
 
Its hard to see the truth looking at reddit, 20k upvotes saying ukraine retook airport, then cnn live cross to it with russians still in it
weird fog of war going on
 
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Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Actually I am outside the US right now and when I watch Fox News I have the impression of watching a propaganda machine. Nothing but false information. Pot calling the kettle black with "fake news".
headache-migraine.gif



Okay I am going to do something here that I literally never thought I would do. I am going to.....defend Fox News.


throw-up-dry-heave.gif




For all of their NUMEROUS FUCKING FAULTS Fox News will still report the god damn news. The will do their best to twist it. They will paint the facts in a light that is beneficial to them and their narrative. They will go out of their way to bring on guests to parrot the latest talking point. So yes by all accounts they are a propaganda channel for a particular section of the country. And before someone go nuts yes I say CNN does the same. 100%.


However Fox News even at its worst in a situation like this will report the objective facts with as little political interference as possible. Fox News knows that it has been pushing a narrative of Biden and everybody just kind of making up the whole Ukraine thing for weeks, but now that the invasion has actually happened Fox News has done a relativity great job of reporting the facts as they happen and have brought on really good experts to talk about it. They dropped the petty and condescending skepticism in favor of just actually covering the situation honestly. Because push finally came to shove and they know that they owe their audience better. I know because I have flipped between the big 3 for two days now. Not even Fox News in darkest most biased moment would defend someone like Donald Trump for example if they started a violent and unjustifiable war against a sovereign nation. And a place like CNN wouldn't do it for Biden either. Meanwhile Russian State TV is pushing a completely nonsense bullshit ass narrative that somehow Russia was pressured in to this war against a sovereign nation.


Its just not what American media does. The various media outlets will twist themselves into knots in order to make this news or that news beneficial for the narrative that they want to push in a pinch, but they would not overextend themselves to excuse something like like this even if their side was the one that did it. So yes while places like Fox News or CNN can be seen as propaganda there are varying levels of propaganda. And what Putin and the Russian State tv are trying to push to defend this absolute fucking travesty is not even remotely near the same level as what you see from places like CNN or Fox News when they try to stir the shit stew every week.


And believe me (and anyone who knows me from the politics section can back this up) I would love to sit here and tell you how Fox News is literally right in line with Russian State television but I cannot in good conscience do that. Because the two things are just not the same. Fox News despite all of its faults is not controlled by the government despite it clearly supporting a certain section of the government, but it would never actually support something like this for that section of the government and neither would CNN.


TLDR: There is a gulf of difference between what the US media does on a daily basis to stir the political shit stew for views and what Putin is trying to do with the Russian media to excuse what he has done here. The difference is VAST.
Man, I've seen what the US propaganda can do, I've heard and seen countless stories where the truth goes against US propaganda. So don't come at me with that bullshit of "US only has petty political nonsense" when their fucking propaganda has created turmoil and spread hate in places far away from your comfy place. Every fucking country has propaganda, but seriously denying how destructive US propaganda is, that's ridiculous. The US is already trying to export their propaganda directly into my country, with the recent case being CNN Portugal trying to stir shit with China and having my government deny any type of involvement in such news. That's how ridiculous it is.

People like you don't want to hear facts, they're not open to discussion, they want things to appease to their feelings, to make posts like "pray for x" on Instagram to make them seem like the good guys. Cut that shit, and listen to both sides, even if you don't agree, even if they're completely wrong. It doesn't make you a lesser human or a brainwashed person, on the contrary, it makes you someone trustworthy to do the right call/judgement. I condemn everything Putin is doing, I know that he is wrong, but even I have the balls to open a Youtube link where the person currently the world hates tries to explain his reasoning. Has a lot of BS inside but also raises good points that would need further investigation.

Ukrainian people are suffering right now, going through shit that you and I never been through, but have you ever thought that maybe ALL OF THIS could have been avoided? That maybe the country was played by two superpowers leading to this shit? This is exactly what people are discussing, and you can hate Putin all you want, just like I do, but man, saying that the US has no propaganda compared to Russia is damn laughable.
I never said we didn't have propaganda. See above.
 
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Its hard to see the truth looking at reddit, 20k upvotes saying ukraine retook airport, then cnn live cross to it with russians still in it
weird fog of war going on

Agreed. I think the battle for Gostomel Airport will be critical. It was captured by the Russians in an airborne helicopter assault and then the Ukrainians counter-attacked. If the Russians control it they can fly in reinforcements and it's only a matter of time until the armor spearhead that's approaching Kyiv to the North-West will link up. If that happens Kyiv is fucked. Hopefully the Ukrainians can retake the airport.

There is a report the Ukrainians have blown up a bridge near Ivankiv where there are clashes now to prevent the armored column from progressing.
 
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Ionian

Member
Some of the reasons there can be, like you said, valid. But overall there's a lot of bs in the middle as well. And yeah, NATO has been pushing to see what they can get away with, looks like Putin had enough. Sucks that Ukraine is now suffering because of it.

But it's still wise to see what the other side has to say.

Ok, fair enough. Just posted for those interested.

I've been learning English for 24 years now, I use it daily. Sometimes the pronunciation of some words match some completely different words in other languages, creating this confusion in my head. It's a common thing to happen when you know more than 1 language. I know 4, including a bit of Chinese and I've lost count the amount of times I switch between languages when talking to my Portuguese parents, my Chinese girlfriend or just posting in English on NeoGaf. It's like my brain can't decide which one to use hahahaha

Nothing justifies a full invasion. Nothing. Even if he was right on what he said, it still doesn't give him the right to do so.

Once again, Russia and China have propaganda, while the US has completely unbiased news, am I saying it right?

Greatest loves of my life; Dutch, Italian, Polish. (was with others, wanted to travel the world from my bed).

Dutch girl was fluent. Born here. Italian (Sicily) very poor English but was fluent by the end. She was at my 21st birthday and I walked her home. She had no idea what I was saying but her smile spoke a million words to me. Polish girl; she drove a car whilst playing Skrillex and nearly murdered us both several times. I used to grip the seat, cross my heart and just hold on. they can all teach the language now. Mostly (" HOLY FUCK, STOP!") , all I ever did was correct then minorly. They wanted to learn, was so endearing and romantic as in every situation we had fallen very deeply in love.

Bitches binned every song and picture I made when they left. (yet still are friends to this day).

Anyway I ramble, your English is brilliant man.
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Kinda lost the point with my post. I'm eying two screens here, one this website, the other the news. Apologies.


Dunno what jersey that is, I hope to God it's not a bad one. Don't follow football. The gesture though is bang on.
 

TheGrat1

Member
I will get into the current topic, I just wanted to address some interesting posts early in this thread:
Poland is keenly aware they're next.
Poland is a member of NATO, they are untouchable as far as Russia is concerned. That is the point of all this. In reality Russia is not the least bit concerned about being attacked, nukes make that a non-starter. Starting conflicts with their neighbors makes it impossible for them to join NATO where it becomes impossible for Russia to turn them into a vassal state.
Not to defend Putin, but I think people are seriously underestimating the historic and diplomatic burden of the situation. Here are some important key factors that have provoked Russia's encroachment:

1) NATO Eastward Expansion

Russia has been very skeptical of NATO's progressive eastward expansion. The first one happened in 1999, when Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary joined the NATO. In 2004, the Baltic states followed and while the Sovjets made it clear that they did not approve of this, none of these states were close to their borders. Russia was willing to live with it until the Bukarest summit, when NATO annexed the Ukraine. In 2008, Russia considered this a direct threat to their sovereignty. The NATO Eastward Expansion as driven forward by the West in a very foolish, hasty and callous way.
Calling what NATO does when adding new members "expansion" is in and of itself a mischaracterization. It enlarges. NATO is not a conquering army like the Mongols, bringing new territories under it by force and annexing them. Those countries have to ASK to join NATO and there is a whole list of requirements they have to meet in order to do so, including not being in current conflict with their neighbors. A nation can even leave if it wants to.
Not long ago I came across this European peace clock:

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It was reading 76 years, 1 month 1 day and 18 hours. It saddens me greatly that we might have to reset it now :messenger_pensive:
LOL Who maintains this clock? Did 1956 (Hungary), 1968 (Czechoslovakia) and the 90's Post-Yugoslavian wars completely escape their notice? This clock should have been reset a few times by now. 76 years of European peace is an extremely liberal estimate.
I've had the argument with many people. I believe it to have been wrong to nuke innocents. The argument against me was better for a quick resolve. I can see that as the Japanese weren't giving up, however I think nuking cities of innocents to be so very wrong. That wasn't fair at all. It changed the face of war that still permeates today. Remember the 'cold war' afterwards between the US and Russia?

Kill a million to save millions in 2 nuclear bombs? That was brutal. The nuclear bombs were aimed at the innocent. Wiped out generations. Changed the world we live in. Japanese were beaten into submission with the death of innocent people.

What was the name of the bombs again? oh yeah 'Big boy' and 'Little boy'.

Contentious view I know but I deem it to be absolutely barbaric. I can see both points but I consider the war was already over without that being needed. It was , in my opinion, an absolute slaughter of people not even fighting.
The purpose of the bombings was not to kill innocents. I can not think of a single war in modern history that ended simply because civilians were killed. This may surprise you: Hiroshima and Nagasaki were (especially by 1945 standards) legitimate military targets. Hiroshima was the headquarters of the 2nd Army, the site of the Imperial Naval Academy and the home port of the Japanese Navy. Nagasaki was home to several factories that supported the war effort, making torpedoes and ammunition. It was also a Naval port and given it's location it was usually the last stop for troops shipping off to the mainland. If they had the ability to affect it, it would have doubtlessly been the initial stop for troops returning from the mainland to defend the home islands as the Americans closed in. However, the IJN had been almost completely destroyed by that point and any oversea troop movements would have literally been blown out of the water by the American Navy.

Bombing cities was typical at the time. No one considered it a war crime (except, ironically, the Germans when it started happening to them. Goebbels called it "bomb-terror"). Industries that supported the war effort as well as political headquarters were in cities. The fact that they were surrounded by civilians could not be helped. A very important thing to remember is that bombing then is nothing like today. You basically had to mass hundreds of planes to fly over an area and bomb the shit out it with the driving doctrine being quantity over quality. You basically dropped your bombs and hoped they hit their targets. 50% accuracy was considered great, and that was during the daytime when you could see what you were flying over.

The most important thing to remember: The US spent months dropping thousands of leaflets telling civilians to leave the major cities because they were going to be bombed to hell and back, including Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And they did. The government evacuated virtually everyone that could not work in a factory or hold a rifle (children, elderly) to the countryside or just outside the cities.

Plenty of cities were bombed. Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Berlin, Stalingrad, Tokyo, Dresden etc. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were no different. The bomb was used for a practical test of it's effectiveness and shock the enemy into surrender. Which it barely did. Even after the second bomb and surrender was decided upon there was and attempt to overthrow the emperor for giving up. Outside of surrendering after Germany was defeated, the bombs were the best outcome for Japan. I can not imagine how much further behind schedule they would be if the US and Soviets had to take over the entire country in a land invasion and march into Tokyo to end the war. So many more people would have died just from starvation and the entirety of the country would have been ravaged.
With Germany screwed Japan would have no allies, Italy was a nothing by that stage. Could have sued for peace then. What happened to the emperor after the war? He lived long but lost his power. Always found it weird how them invading China was basically a precursor to everything.
The Potsdam Declaration was made in July. Japan could have surrendered then, they chose not to.
Britain and France: Holy fuck America we're getting screwed here, send help!
America: Not yet, maybe later. Have some supplies instead.

War could have been shorter. Was only after Pearl Harbour, years after the war started that America threw their hat in the ring properly.
Are you seriously faulting America for not jumping into a war where no one had attacked them or conspired to attack them and had no treaty obligations? Especially after we told you guys the treaty of Versailles was too harsh and would not sign on to it? Britain and France screwed themselves with their greed in 1918, their lack of preparedness in the interwar years, their appeasement in the late 30s, and their abysmal performance against the Wehrmacht. None of that was America's fault. Be thankful for those supplies. Thousands of men were killed by the Kriegsmarine bringing them to your islands.

Fast forward to today and America is rightfully criticized for sticking it's nose in where it does not belong. I criticize FDR a lot but he played the war situation perfectly and only got fully involved when it was justified.

World War II taught America 2 very bad lessons:
1. War spending is good for the economy.
2. The rest of the world can not be relied upon to be left to it's own devices. We did it twice and World Wars sprang up. Time to stick our foot in every door. It is no surprise when we get our toes stepped on.

America is not the world's policeman. Not now. Not in 1940. Also, the US Army was nowhere near ready for mobilization in 1940.

The bombings did help, but Japan was already mostly destroyed by previous bombings. I don't think they gave a shit about the atomic bombs. Like you said, they would fight with bamboo sticks if needed, but losing the people that would give them a chance to fight back (Manchurian Army)? Nah, that was a lost fight. Not only that, but if the Soviets managed to wipe their asses, they would be another divided country, with the Soviets and US on each side.
There was no chance of the mainland armies returning to the home islands. The Imperial Navy was all but gone by that point along with their air power. The US had complete mastery of the seas and the air and the British Royal Navy was on their way to tip the scales even further. The soldiers were on the other side of the Sea of Japan and none of them could swim that far.
Why does the west keep pushing NATO closer and closer to Russia 30 years after the Warsaw Pact ended?
The real question is: "Why do these countries near Russia keep wanting to join NATO?"
Answer: So they do not go through what Ukraine is going through right now.
The end of the Socialist regime in Moscow did not mean the end of the need for national defense. Ask anyone from the former Yugoslavian states, Georgia and Ukraine.
 
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