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Russia begins Invasion of Ukraine

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Chittagong

Chittagong

Gold Member
Read today that the explosions risk the destruction of the entire pipeline as they flood with corrosive sea water. Each pipe is worth some 10BUSD.
 
CharmingCharlie

CharmingCharlie

Member
Chittagong said:
Read today that the explosions risk the destruction of the entire pipeline as they flood with corrosive sea water. Each pipe is worth some 10BUSD.
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I think at this point we can safely say those pipelines will never be used again. I cannot see any situation where Europe will put themselves in a position of reliance on Russia ever again. So yeah that is 20bill down the shitter well done Europe.
 
I

InverseAgonist

Banned
Ironbunny said:
The whole problem is claim that ruZZia should have a right for some buffer state. Looking at Poo-tins maps many indepent countries would fall under that trap. No thanks.
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I never said Russia should. I have said that returning to the Minsk II protocol lines is the best outcome, factoring in the costs all around in lives, food, energy and money.
 
I

InverseAgonist

Banned
MachRc said:
74gb.gif
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Funny! Perfectly encapsulates why the Western World is in decline!
 
kurisu_1974

kurisu_1974

Banned
winjer said:
What is your country. Most of EU already has it's winter reserves close to 100%.
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It doesn't really matter if there is actually more or less gas. The "idea" of less or more gas is enough to upset the markets. I'm in Belgium, just had a bill of around 1000 euro (which I have to pay extra on top of what I've been paying every month) and now the monthly fee is set to about 450 euro/month. And that's only gas, I still have three years on my fixed electricity tariff.

For us it's just a bit less money we'll save, for some people, who often have to pay a lot more (colleagues with older, less isolated houses are at 750 euro/month) or have lower incomes, this can get ugly. Of course it doesn't help that we have the most incompetent infighting bunch of morons running the country.
 
I

InverseAgonist

Banned
akimbo009 said:
All the way back before 2014, with restitution and payment from Russia on impact and damages, and restrictions on Russian military along the borders of Ukraine.
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That's broadly in-line with what I'm proposing and would seem on the same page, Minsk II was Feb 2015. Unless... how far back before 2014?
 
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I

InverseAgonist

Banned
akimbo009 said:
If your comments include returning Crimea back to Ukraine then peace. That, in addition to the repayments.
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Yeah, I think that should be on the table. And repayments and rebuilding costs will need to be factored in somehow. It gets sticky, as you know, but make the people at State earn their salary.

We've already spent 60B on Ukraine, that's 3X NASA's budget, so rebuilding is hard. But these international funds and organizations (IMF, etc) exist for a reason. Let's hope for leadership.
 
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FunkMiller

FunkMiller

Banned
InverseAgonist said:
I never said Russia should. I have said that returning to the Minsk II protocol lines is the best outcome, factoring in the costs all around in lives, food, energy and money.
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Good grief, no. Minsk 2 allows Russia to continue the farce of claiming Donbas as a self governing region, with their military in place. No. They must get out of all of Ukraine. Every inch of it.

Minsk 2 is the best and most realistic outcome for the Russians. No one else. It allows them to contest Ukraine’s full sovereignty. That can’t be allowed.

The only good outcome is Russia out of all of Ukraine, including Crimea. Which is what Zelensky and his NATO allies want.
 
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I

InverseAgonist

Banned
FunkMiller said:
Good grief, no. Minsk 2 allows Russia to continue the farce of claiming Donbas as a self governing region, with their military in place. No. They must get out of all of Ukraine. Every inch of it.

Minsk 2 is the best and most realistic outcome for the Russians. No one else. It allows them to contest Ukraine’s full sovereignty. That can’t be allowed.

The only good outcome is Russia out of all of Ukraine, including Crimea. Which is what Zelensky and his NATO allies want.
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Minsk II reset this to 2015 lines, which included a 15km demilitarized zone and a 100km artillery ban. Again, as I said to Akimbo, Crimea needs to be negotiated. He's right. And what to do next.

To reclaim all of Ukraine is fantasy. Keep dreaming as real people die, Europe freezes and the 3rd world starves. You'll be fine though.


And how do you know what Zelensky wants? What of the Ukrainska Pravda reporting from a month ago? According to their reporting, which the Western Media isn't broadcasting, Zelensky wanted exactly what I'm saying this Spring but was rebuffed by the UK's Boris Johnson on the US's behalf. This rabbit-hole of geopolitics is likely a lot deeper than you realize, which I posted about earlier and real people are dying so these geopolitical games can be waged while arm-chair generals in this thread, including you, cheer on more killing and death. War is bad, period. And I refuse to buttress every fucking remark with the obvious, Yes, Russia and Putin are evil, they started this... we all get it. It's assumed, but we're here now. We're rolling the dice on major escalations the longer this goes on -- see the NordStream event.
 
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FunkMiller

FunkMiller

Banned
InverseAgonist said:
Minsk II reset this to 2015 lines, which included a 15km demilitarized zone and a 100km artillery ban. Again, as I said to Akimbo, Crimea needs to be negotiated. And what to do next.

To reclaim all of Ukraine is fantasy. Keep dreaming as real people die, Europe freezes and the 3rd world starves. You'll be fine though.


And how do you know what Zelensky wants? What of the Ukrainska Pravda reporting from a month ago? According to their reporting, which the Western Media isn't broadcasting, Zelensky wanted exactly what I'm saying this Spring but was rebuffed by the UK's Boris Johnson on the US's behalf. This rabbit-hole of geopolitics is likely a lot deeper than you realize, which I posted about earlier and real people are dying so these geopolitical games can be waged while arm-chair generals in this thread, including you, cheer on more killing and death. War is bad, period. And I refuse to buttress every fucking remark with the obvious, Yes, Russia and Putin are evil, they started this... we all get it. It's assumed, but we're here now. We're rolling the dice on major escalations the longer this goes on -- see the NordStream event.
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‘Ukraine should roll over so this all goes away’.

And I’m in Europe. Any privations we have to go through is worth it to stop and punish these child rapists and war criminals.
 
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I

InverseAgonist

Banned
FunkMiller said:
And you go back to pro Russian Telegram.
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So anyone who isn't pro-war is pro-Russian?

Is that really what it's come down to? I mean, this is insane. The world really has gone crazy when this binary, you're either with us or against us mentality is so prevalent; it's a horrible indicator. I'm old enough to remember when W Bush pulled this shit in Iraq and it was bullshit then and it's still bullshit today.

When you grow up I hope you become more wise, worldly and take a more nuanced view. The world is grey. Embrace the diversity of opinion, there is much to learn.
 
FunkMiller

FunkMiller

Banned
InverseAgonist said:
So anyone who isn't pro-war is pro-Russian?

Is that really what it's come down to? I mean, this is insane. The world really has gone crazy when this binary, you're either with us or against us mentality is so prevalent; it's a horrible indicator. I'm old enough to remember when W Bush pulled this shit in Iraq and it was bullshit then and it's still bullshit today.

When you grow up I hope you become more wise, worldly and take a more nuanced view. The world is grey. Embrace the diversity of opinion, there is much to learn.
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You constantly post opinions that say Ukraine should capitulate. Nearly everything you say is based around that. That’s pro Russian.

And no. This isn’t grey. It’s actually very black and white for once. Russia needs to leave Ukraine completely. And they will.

Embrace reality.
 
I

InverseAgonist

Banned
FunkMiller said:
You constantly post opinions that say Ukraine should capitulate. Nearly everything you say is based around that. That’s pro Russian.

And no. This isn’t grey. It’s actually very black and white for once. Russia needs to leave Ukraine completely. And they will.

Embrace reality.
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This is all bullshit. I've never said anything to the effect. So, shame on you for lying, either out of ignorance or stupidity.

"Capitulate" is what the West, among them Joe Biden and Boris Johnson, suggested in the opening days of the Russian campaign when there was an armored spearhead surrounding Kiev and they recommended Zelenskyy flee to the west. I never recommended this. That is capitulation.

I'm in line with Henry Kissinger and Fareed Zakaria in looking for a realistic and sustainable end-game. I highly recommend you read the Kissinger interview.
 
FunkMiller

FunkMiller

Banned
InverseAgonist said:
"Capitulate" is what the West, among them Joe Biden and Boris Johnson, suggested in the opening days of the Russian campaign when there was an armored spearhead surrounding Kiev and they recommended Zelenskyy flee to the west. I never recommended this. That is capitulation.
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The UK were the first to supply Ukraine with weapons, so let’s not have of that bullshit, eh? At no point did the US or the UK tell Ukraine to capitulate.
 
I

InverseAgonist

Banned
FunkMiller said:
The UK were the first to supply Ukraine with weapons, so let’s not have of that bullshit, eh? At no point did the US or the UK tell Ukraine to capitulate.
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Oh, wow, they're willing to arm from a distance a proxy war that benefits them? Amazing. Have you been internalizing nothing I've been saying about the geopolitics here?

Also:

Zelenskyy, who had earlier refused to leave Ukraine, has now turned down the offer of British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who had offered him a safe evacuation to the UK.​
​
As reported by Ukrayinska Pravda, Johnson stated that he had discussed all these a long time ago, but Zelenskyy made it very clear that he won't leave his country.​
​
"I must tell you that Volodymyr has always made it clear that he owes the Ukrainian people and is going to stay there and take care of them. I must say that I admire him", Johnson said.​
​
This is not the first time any country has offered a safe evacuation to the Ukrainian President. Earlier in February, the United States offered Volodymyr Zelenskyy a chance to leave Kyiv at the behest of the US government. However, he then turned down the offer saying, "The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride."​
​
​
I'm sure in your mind telling the leader of an invaded country to flee to the west isn't "capitulation," yet ending the war ASAP at the lines it started at as a springboard for negotiations is. Amazing how people can draw artificial lines in their mind...
 
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FunkMiller

FunkMiller

Banned
InverseAgonist said:
Oh, wow, they're willing to arm from a distance a proxy war that benefits them? Amazing. Have you been internalizing nothing I've been saying about the geopolitics here?

Also:

Zelenskyy, who had earlier refused to leave Ukraine, has now turned down the offer of British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who had offered him a safe evacuation to the UK.​
​
As reported by Ukrayinska Pravda, Johnson stated that he had discussed all these a long time ago, but Zelenskyy made it very clear that he won't leave his country.​
​
"I must tell you that Volodymyr has always made it clear that he owes the Ukrainian people and is going to stay there and take care of them. I must say that I admire him", Johnson said.​
​
This is not the first time any country has offered a safe evacuation to the Ukrainian President. Earlier in February, the United States offered Volodymyr Zelenskyy a chance to leave Kyiv at the behest of the US government. However, he then turned down the offer saying, "The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride."​
​
​
I'm sure in your mind telling the leader of an invaded country to flee to the west isn't "capitulation," yet ending the war ASAP at the lines it started at as a springboard for negotiations is. Amazing how people can draw artificial lines in their mind...
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Yeah. Your constant desire to cast everyone involved in the operation to free Ukraine of the Russian invaders in a bad light speaks volumes about where your loyalties lie.

Suggesting Zelensky flees is not tantamount to suggesting Ukraine rolls over. Especially when you’re also delivering Javelin systems. There was no suggestion that Ukraine capitulate by anyone.

You whined about how you had to leave this thread before because you felt piled on. Maybe stop the incredibly transparent anti-NATO, ‘Ukraine should negotiate’ horseshit, and it won’t keep happening.
 
Bitmap Frogs

Bitmap Frogs

Mr. Community
The problem of allowing russia to keep the donbass is multiple:

a) justifies the invasion, the rapes, the torture, the genocide and emboldens russia to do it again
b) validates the concept of the russky mir, that is, that russia has an innate sovereignity over anywhere where people speak russian - this would immediatly put a target on a bunch of countries bordering and nearby russia
c) it threatens buddying democracies as it reinforces the idea that the strongarm dictator is the superior way, and it might even lead to democratic backsliding in core european countries as far-right parties have a conquering hero to boast

Russia can't be allowed to win nor to save face. Putin has to lose.
 
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I

InverseAgonist

Banned
FunkMiller said:
Yeah. Your constant desire to cast everyone involved in the operation to free Ukraine of the Russian invaders in a bad light speaks volumes about where your loyalties lie.

Suggesting Zelensky flees is not tantamount to suggesting Ukraine rolls over. Especially when you’re also delivering Javelin systems. There was no suggestion that Ukraine capitulate by anyone.

You whined about how you had to leave this thread before because you felt piled on. Maybe stop the incredibly transparent anti-NATO, ‘Ukraine should negotiate’ horseshit, and it won’t keep happening.
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This is futile. I highly recommend you reread this post of mine and internalize it. Because what you just said in the quote above is all bullshit, just plain false and projecting your mental model of what a person who doesn't agree with you must be on another that you don't know. If I said something factually incorrect, as you and many here often do, then correct me with a source and I'll accept it and apologize. But that's not what you're doing and let me tell you, that's not how conversation works.

It'll be a good life lesson, one day you'll thank me!
 
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Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
InverseAgonist said:
I never said Russia should. I have said that returning to the Minsk II protocol lines is the best outcome, factoring in the costs all around in lives, food, energy and money.
Click to expand...
So that Russia can just violate them again? Given their imperialist, warmongering ambitions, why should the rest of the world trust them to abide by it? History shows they "agree" to peace, then build up their forces and pull the same shit all over again at the next opportunity.

en.wikipedia.org

Minsk agreements - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

On 15 February 2022, the Russian Duma voted to appeal to President Putin to recognise the self-proclaimed LPR and DPR.[109] The next day, a Russian government spokesman acknowledged that officially recognising the Donbas republics would not be in keeping with the Minsk agreements.[110] However, he also told journalists that Putin's priority in regulating the situation in Donbas is the implementation of mechanisms adopted under those agreements.[111] Russia went on to officially recognise the self-proclaimed Luhansk and Donetsk people's republics on 21 February 2022.[8] Following that decision, on 22 February 2022, President Putin said that the Minsk agreements "no longer existed", and that Ukraine, not Russia, was to blame for their collapse, accusing Ukraine of genocide in Donbas in his comments[112][113][9] - a statement largely seen as baseless and factually wrong by the wider world, academics studying genocide, and the United Nations.[114][115][116][117] Russia then invaded Ukraine on 24 February 2022.[10]
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MikeM

MikeM

Member
I like how the UN is like “this is fine.”

If you want the vote to be legitimate, have neutral parties there to officiate it. I guess it really can’t be though if most of the population is dead or has fled.
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
InverseAgonist said:
So anyone who isn't pro-war is pro-Russian?

Is that really what it's come down to? I mean, this is insane. The world really has gone crazy when this binary, you're either with us or against us mentality is so prevalent; it's a horrible indicator. I'm old enough to remember when W Bush pulled this shit in Iraq and it was bullshit then and it's still bullshit today.

When you grow up I hope you become more wise, worldly and take a more nuanced view. The world is grey. Embrace the diversity of opinion, there is much to learn.
Click to expand...
Perhaps it is your understanding of what the term "pro-war" entails that is lacking nuance and diversity. Is an entity fighting for their mere survival against annexation "pro-war" because they are fighting back? Does "pro-war" mean "anti-self defense"?

If you're old enough to remember the shit that W pulled in Iraq, you should be old enough to remember that the "anti-war" position was for America to GTFO out Iraq. The anti-war position for Russia is for them to GTFO of Ukraine.

The "anti-war" position for the Iraq war was NOT "Make fake peace and then annex parts of Iraq for America to exploit and oppress to only further grow its military-industrial complex".
If your "anti-war" position for the Russia-Ukraine war is for Russia to make fake peace with Ukraine and then annex parts of Ukraine for Russia to exploit and oppress while draining it of natural resources to further grow Russia's military-industrial complex, then you really need to rethink just how "anti-war" your position truly is in the grand scheme of things.
 
Hawking Radiation

Hawking Radiation

Member
Bitmap Frogs said:
The problem of allowing russia to keep the donbass is multiple:

a) justifies the invasion, the rapes, the torture, the genocide and emboldens russia to do it again
b) validates the concept of the russky mir, that is, that russia has an innate sovereignity over anywhere where people speak russian - this would immediatly put a target on a bunch of countries bordering and nearby russia
c) it threatens buddying democracies as it reinforces the idea that the strongarm dictator is the superior way, and it might even lead to democratic backsliding in core european countries as far-right parties have a conquering hero to boast

Russia can't be allowed to win nor to save face. Putin has to lose.
Click to expand...

Fucking THIS.
 
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