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[Agent X]

if you make a comment like games being less scaled down because they're on a portable (I take it that its nothing but a potshot @ gba..) you should realise that when we were gaming on SNES / Genesis, nothing about those games are cut down or lesser.

It wasn't a potshot at GBA. It was referring to the Lynx's competition at that time, which was the original Game Boy. Most conversions on the Lynx were faithful to the source material, whereas most conversions on the Game Boy (and also Game Gear) were stripped down severely.

But, now that you mention it...the GBA is currently suffering from the same problem. There are lots of games for GBA that are "ports" of popular PS2/X-Box games, but they resemble the originals only as far as the name and the box art. They're essentially completely different games, and usually nowhere near as good as the original games they're supposed to be based on.

Your point really is rather silly, there are tonnes of gba titles - they're 2d but it doesn't mean they suffer in presentation or goodness.

Not necessarily. There are many good original 2D games for GBA, as well as faithful conversions of time-tested 2D games from years past.

However, seeing a contemporary PS2/X-Box 3D action game reduced to a paper-thin side-scroller means that the programmers failed magnificently in their quest to provide a quality gaming experience. No rational person would buy that crap if it was released in today's market for $30 on a TV-based console; I can't see why anyone should make excuses for handheld games to be mangled in that manner. Hence, the "wind-up music box" comparison.

Really people. Equating the platform to a lesser experience. Play more games before you make dumb comments like that.

That's the thing--I don't equate the platform to a lesser experience. I equate the games to a lesser experience if they're shoddy and dumbed down.

I demand quality from my handheld games. I don't feel that the system being "just a handheld" should give a developer free reign to butcher a conversion to that system.

 

[jarrod]

But, now that you mention it...the GBA is currently suffering from the same problem. There are lots of games for GBA that are "ports" of popular PS2/X-Box games, but they resemble the originals only as far as the name and the box art. They're essentially completely different games, and usually nowhere near as good as the original games they're supposed to be based on.

That happens whenever there's a difference in capabilities between platforms though, this isn't exclusive to handhelds. Look at the VF2 conversions for Genesis and Saturn for example. Hell, look at most arcade ports in the 1980s and early 1990s.

And don't worry, in 2006 PSP will likely also be getting watered down Xenon/PS3 conversions. They'll be 3D now, but still rudimentary in comparison to the "real" games on consoles, limited in visuals, audio, control and scope. Judging any handheld by these sorts of games never works out favorably.

That's the thing--I don't equate the platform to a lesser experience. I equate the games to a lesser experience if they're shoddy and dumbed down.

I demand quality from my handheld games. I don't feel that the system being "just a handheld" should give a developer free reign to butcher a conversion to that system.

I think part of that is inherent to handhelds though, they're just a far more casual/disposable market. PSP might change that, but that's a rather gigantic gamble to assume. And PSP doesn't look to be free of it either, even near launch you'll find dumbed down conversions like Spider-Man 2, NFS Underground or Dynasty Warriors.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

The GBA is my favorite system this generation as well. Pokemon, FFTA, Fire Emblem, and Advance Wars are probably my most played games this gen. If you don't like portable games, I don't see what the debate is about. Don't buy them. The only times I'm ever unsatisfied with a purchase is when I do it from the urging of someone else, I know my own tastes and purchase accordingly.

It's not that I don't like portable games, but rather I don't like the current selection all that much (and not based on quality so much as genre-- I'm not trying to start some sort of flamewar). So I am wondering if others feel the same, and how they feel about the new handhelds, which seem to be shaking things up.

For quite a while a handheld (Lynx) was my primary system-- so it's not as if I dislike handheld gaming inherently.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I think part of that is inherent to handhelds though, they're just a far more casual/disposable market. PSP might change that, but that's a rather gigantic gamble to assume. And PSP doesn't look to be free of it either, even near launch you'll find dumbed down conversions like Spider-Man 2, NFS Underground or Dynasty Warriors.

It may be common, but it's not inherent. Some GBA games, and the early Lynx experience prove that.

The most hopeful things for me the new handhelds are:

Ridge Racers (which seems to be a pretty full-game experience, from the descriptions)

A new Wipeout-- which again, from descriptions, sounds like a full-game experince

Network games-- which will offer something different from TV-based gaming. (Internet play aside-- they're something cool about sitting around with several friends playing linked handhelds).

That last one worries me, as it's been technically possible for ages, but not really taken off. Perhap wireless will make the difference-- perhaps new marketing will make the difference-- perhaps it won't change at all.

I just know I'd be happy to be Wipeout racing against friends, and if I can revive my wife's interest in Puyo Puyo we could play that as well.

I am heartened to hear I'm not the only one with my experience of handhelds-- and hopeful that the new systems will change things up. (If only becuase Nintendo has their first serious handheld competition ever.)

 

[jarrod]

It may be common, but it's not inherent. Some GBA games, and the early Lynx experience prove that.

It's inherent in that it's what the market will support. Which wouldn't include Lynx's flash at retail.

I'm not saying all handheld games are inherently "dumbed down", but the casual/disposable marketplace ensures generally lower software sales and lower production values. This results in quite a bit of "dumbed down" games, usually based on licenses or console properties. Now there's always companies that manage to buck the trend (Namco, Nintendo, Square Enix, Capcom, etc) but they're almost exclusively Japanese, where the handheld market can actually support higher budgets thanks to a stonger distribution network and more active software market (for handhelds btw, Japan's console market is still lagging behind the west). PSP and DS might manage to change these trends, they're generating a lot of excitement for handheld gaming... but it's a slim chance imo. Especially with the next gen consoles just around the corner, I suspect handhelds will be relegated to 2nd class status (both by the industry and the market) again soon.

If you never approved of handheld gaming before, it's unlikely DS or PSP will shift things in the long run.

 

[mashoutposse]

If you liked the "home console in your pocket" feel of the Lynx, then the PSP is going to deliver for you. Less than a week after launch, I already have three games that could sit side by side with any current generation game (RR, Minna No Golf, and Dynasty Warriors -- I would include Lumines, but it's just a puzzler). PSP is so similar to the PS2 (in a good way) that it seems that the launch games directly benefitted from the four previous years of current gen console development and the devs have been able to create not just PS2-quality games, but good PS2-quality games right off the bat.

And PSP doesn't look to be free of it either, even near launch you'll find dumbed down conversions like Spider-Man 2, NFS Underground or Dynasty Warriors.

In what ways do you feel Dynasty Warriors is dumbed down? I've put a decent amount of time into DW PSP; it seems like the real deal to me.

 

[jarrod]

In what ways do you feel Dynasty Warriors is dumbed down? I've put a decent amount of time into DW PSP; it seems like the real deal to me.

Well, I'm going mainly off an interview with the game's producer (Takazumi Tomoike) and media available but character models, level design, general scope, draw distance, general game design, etc. Here's some quotes...


"For the PSP version, we know that people won't be satisfied with just a port from the PlayStation 2. People are used to playing games on their cellphones, so we had to make something that would be more entertaining for a short time. We made the game around that kind of theme."


"There were many problems. For instance, you can't use the exact same models. With the specs, it should work the same as it does in the PS2, but on this hardware it doesn't. "


"Comparing it to the PS2… well, since it's a portable system, it's like a simplified version of the PS2. Our development model for PSP is that it's a portable system, and mobile like cellphones. With the PS2, you can play games at home for as many hours as you like. But we consider the PSP a mobile device, so people can play for a short time, then stop whenever they want."


"Of course, ports are easier than making brand new games, but that's not to say that it's easy. The graphics make it tough. The PSP can't keep the framerate high enough. We like to keep the framerate at 60 fps for the PS2, but you can't do the same with PSP. It's very difficult to get it that fast with the lower polygon models. So, in order to get it (Sengoku Musou) fast enough, we lowered the polygon count of the models, and broke up the stage maps."


...and images....

...looks rather scaled back to me.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Never say "Just a puzzler."

Good puzzle games are worth more than any other games available. (Why so few on GBA? It used to be the saving grace of the earlier GB models.)

That said, I don't really like 2 player games against computer opponents, hence my wish for linking Puyos and getting my wife or somebody else back into it.

I wonder if there will be a Xi game on PSP? It's bombed here, but I'd import it in a heartbeat.



I hope mashoutposse is right, and jarrod wrong, but I fear the opposite. It will probably be clear by PSP US launchtime whether the DS or the PSP "has it."

Good news-- if they do a lot of console ports of full games, I might not mind as much, as I didn't play that much N64 and have been missing tons of PS2 games.

 

[evilromero]

Nothing compares to Mario Kart on the GBA. The only decent place to host four GBAs was the kitchen, with its prime lighting and narrow structure. But you know, those were in my earlier college days when I had more spare time to jack around. The DS does make it much easier to game now, since I know a great more deal people with the unit.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Jarrod:

The graphics parts of that don't mean anything to me.

And I don't mind the short-burst play style, as long as there are compelling reasons to keep playing, and the game is long enough. Advance Wars, for instance, was great this way. You could play just a battle or two at a time.


Advance Wars is one of my heroes of a handheld game made with all the love of system game. I know there are others, but as I said, they tend to be in genres I like less.

 

[jarrod]

Good news-- if they do a lot of console ports of full games, I might not mind as much, as I didn't play that much N64 and have been missing tons of PS2 games.

I think that's been GBA's saving grace to some degree too (in addition the strong original JP support). Lower production values and capabilities almost encourage ports of older games to make a good return. Same thing with mobile development.

 

[Amir0x]

...looks rather scaled back to me.

Dynasty Warriors is a full-fledged game whose gameplay does not really suffer in the conversion. Even if you couldn't maintain 60fps, for instance, you'd still get a great game out of 30fps. Visually the game is a step down, but the fact that it can even still hold a gameplay experience that is near identical to the console version is remarkable. Indeed, the gameplay on the PSP version is supposedly changed only in ways that specifically to suit the "quick play" handheld market (visuals aside).

It's definitely quite a difference, for instance, than playing Need for Speed Underground for PS2 or Xbox and then playing Need for Speed Underground for GBA.

 

[mashoutposse]

Well, I'm going mainly off an interview with the game's producer (Takazumi Tomoike) and media available but character models, level design, general scope, draw distance, general game design, etc. Here's some quotes...

"For the PSP version, we know that people won't be satisfied with just a port from the PlayStation 2. People are used to playing games on their cellphones, so we had to make something that would be more entertaining for a short time. We made the game around that kind of theme."

"There were many problems. For instance, you can't use the exact same models. With the specs, it should work the same as it does in the PS2, but on this hardware it doesn't. "

"Comparing it to the PS2… well, since it's a portable system, it's like a simplified version of the PS2. Our development model for PSP is that it's a portable system, and mobile like cellphones. With the PS2, you can play games at home for as many hours as you like. But we consider the PSP a mobile device, so people can play for a short time, then stop whenever they want."

"Of course, ports are easier than making brand new games, but that's not to say that it's easy. The graphics make it tough. The PSP can't keep the framerate high enough. We like to keep the framerate at 60 fps for the PS2, but you can't do the same with PSP. It's very difficult to get it that fast with the lower polygon models. So, in order to get it (Sengoku Musou) fast enough, we lowered the polygon count of the models, and broke up the stage maps."

While all of these changes have certainly been made, the game itself doesn't feel like it has been "watered-down" per se. The combat is practically identical to the PS2 games and a similar level of strategy is required to complete the stages. Even the graphics aren't too far off (although they've definitely been downgraded -- 30fps, lower poly models, 16-bit color). They've retained the "30 guys onscreen at once" feel, along with the satisfaction of running into the middle of a crowd knocking everyone back with a super move, and that's all I can ask of the visual presentation.

Plus, the new boardgame structure may actually be an improvement. IGN summed up my feelings on it pretty well:

We were wondering why Koei went with the decision to split the battle fields for this first portable entry, and we came up with a number of possible reasons. Given that the game is now on a portable system, it makes sense to assume that gameplay sessions will occur in short bursts, making smaller play fields ideal. We also presume the game engine has less burden with smaller battle areas than it would with a larger level. We'll point out that memory doesn't seem to come into play here, as you move from one field to the next without any load time.

It's also possible that Koei made the change because it's just a neat idea. The planning map displays lots of information about the stage as a whole, showing you how many enemy and army allies are in each individual battle field, and it changes with time, as enemies and allies win battles and advance to new battle fields. You have to decide where to go next -- do you attempt to invade a battle field containing only enemy troops, or do you give support to a battle field that has ally and enemy troops? When moving over a field, you enter battle only if there are enemy troops present on the field.

The new gameplay system is something that we'd like to see used in future installments of the series on the PSP. We do hope to see future PSP installments, as this first entry suffers a bit for being a launch title. While there are no load times once you've gotten into a stage, starting up the game and starting up a stage takes far too long. The game's engine is also unrefined, with lots of slowdown and enemies that pop in and out despite being right in front of you.

These are typical problems with a rushed title, and we're sure Koei will be fixing them for the next PSP installment. They don't get in the way of Dynasty Warriors PSP offering the gameplay Dynasty Warriors fans have come to love along with some major twists.

 

[jarrod]

The graphics parts of that don't mean anything to me.

And I don't mind the short-burst play style, as long as there are compelling reasons to keep playing, and the game is long enough. Advance Wars, for instance, was great this way. You could play just a battle or two at a time.

A bit beside the point, Mash was pushing the line that PSP will now shift the market to "console" experiences on handhelds. My counter was the interview with Omega Team's Takazumi Tomoike, which reveals that their philosophies from mobile/Game Boy development will essentially go unchanged, regardless of system capabilities.

Dynasty Warriors is a full-fledged game whose gameplay does not really suffer in the conversion. Even if you couldn't maintain 60fps, for instance, you'd still get a great game out of 30fps. Visually the game is a step down, but the fact that it can even still hold a gameplay experience that is near identical to the console version is remarkable. Indeed, the gameplay on the PSP version is supposedly changed only in ways that specifically to suit the "quick play" handheld market (visuals aside).

It's definitely quite a difference, for instance, than playing Need for Speed Underground for PS2 or Xbox and then playing Need for Speed Underground for GBA.

Good for PSP... it'll have all of a year or two for comparable console coversions before getting relegated to 2nd class GBA status by Xenon and PlayStation 3. The interview above reveals that PSP really isn't changing handheld philosophies despite it's amazing technology... handhelds will still get weaker conversions, "burst" cenetered truncated design and the only engaing content will likely be primiairly original JP development and past generation ports.

 

[Amir0x]

Good for PSP... it'll have all of a year or two for comparable console coversions before getting relegated to 2nd class GBA status by Xenon and PlayStation 3. The interview above reveals that PSP really isn't changing handheld philosophies despite it's amazing technology... handhelds will still get weaker conversions, "burst" cenetered truncated design and the only engaing content will likely be primiairly original JP development and past generation ports.

It seems you're making this prediction for people. The comments about prove that KOEI understands handhelds games must be made differently, not that they must be made worse.

 

[evilromero]

Actually the PSP only has a year or two before the GBA follow-up debuts. Then all this superficial talk about visuals will really become entrenched. And the PSP will easily become passe in a world where only visuals are concerned.

 

[jarrod]

Seems IGN guessed wrong.

It's also possible that Koei made the change because it's just a neat idea.

, in order to get it (Sengoku Musou) fast enough, we lowered the polygon count of the models, and broke up the stage maps

...PSP comes closer in the short term, making for an exciting launch and first year, but do you really expect Xenon/PS3 conversions to get similar treatment. Do you really think this proposed philosophy shift can be supported? Will market trends really change that dramatically? Isn't this a rather risky approach?

 

[Sho Nuff]

Please give me Lynx emu for GBA or PSP

I want portable slimeworld

 

[jarrod]

It seems you're making this prediction for people.

I'm not the one making sweeping predictions about industry shifts in this thread.

The comments about prove that KOEI understands handhelds games must be made differently, not that they must be made worse.

Maybe you should reread what I've written. Lower resources and mobile/GB development philosophies don't always signal a shift to "worse made" games, particularly for Japanese studios. GBA is a testament to that. But Mash's suppossition that handhelds will now move to console budgets and philoshies strikes me more as whishful thinking than anything. The market would have to support such a shift, and there's no real clear indication that it's going to happen. Hell, there's no clear indication that developers want such a shift either.

 

[Kiriku]

it'll have all of a year or two for comparable console coversions before getting relegated to 2nd class GBA status by Xenon and PlayStation 3.

Well, I think there will be a difference from the PS2/Xbox/GC --> GBA situation. The main difference is that games made in 3D will also stay in 3D for PSP. Making 3D games in 2D can change the gameplay quite dramatically and make the experience a totally different one (which is what's been happening with popular console games being "remade" for GBA). Sure, Xenon games and the likes will look a lot better than respective PSP versions, but at least the 3D gameplay and environment is possible to keep intact.

So yeah, we'll have more substandard games in 3D rather than 2D.

 

[Lord Error]

...looks rather scaled back to me.

The sad thing is, the image quality in DW games is so but-fugly that even with all the scaling back, I can see the PSP version actually being easier on the eyes compared to it's PS2 counterparts.

handhelds will still get weaker conversions, "burst" cenetered truncated design

Ridge Racers is more complete and more indepth game than any of it's old brethern on home consoles.

 

[jarrod]

Well, I think there will be a difference from the PS2/Xbox/GC --> GBA situation. The main difference is that games made in 3D will also stay in 3D for PSP. Making 3D games in 2D can change the gameplay quite dramatically and make the experience a totally different one (which is what's been happening with popular console games being "remade" for GBA). Sure, Xenon games and the likes will look a lot better than respective PSP versions, but at least the 3D gameplay and environment is possible to keep intact.

So yeah, we'll have more substandard games in 3D rather than 2D.

So you don't think Xenon or PS3 will allow game design to move beyond what's capable on current platforms?

Besides which, PSP is an analog and 4 buttons shy of replicating current controllers. There's going to be some immediately discernable level of control loss here.

Let's try plugging in some different platform into your current argument for some fun....

main difference is that games made in 3D will also stay in 3D for DS. Making 3D games in 2D can change the gameplay quite dramatically and make the experience a totally different one (which is what's been happening with popular console games being "remade" for GBA). Sure, Xbox games and the likes will look a lot better than respective DS versions, but at least the 3D gameplay and environment is possible to keep intact.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Please give me Lynx emu for GBA or PSP

I want portable slimeworld

Yes!

Before Doom was even written, this game taught me what "Deathmatch" was all about. Lynxable heaven!

 

[Amir0x]

I'm not the one making sweeping predictions about industry shifts in this thread.

But you just did. So there's two of you now!

Maybe you should reread what I've written. Lower resources and mobile/GB development philosophies don't always signal a shift to "worse made" games, particularly for Japanese studios. GBA is a testament to that.

But, in fact, talking specifically about ported games - it does. Very few "current gen" ported games on GBA are anything other than shit. There's an exception in Max Payne, but frankly I can't think of anything else. And it's not just "worse." We're talking games so god awful by comparrison that it's actually painful. Take a look at Dead to Rights (GBA) for example. Dead to Rights is already nothing to write home about. But on GBA? Words cannot properly describe...

...point is, with PSP, there will definitely be at least a minor shift. Because it's a capable 3D system. Much more capable than DS in your example above. Similarly, it also has a more "straight forward" method of control. Developers won't have to "simulate" analog control, essentially rendering another screen pointless. If a company is looking to port a game from Xenon/PS3 to PSP they can still maintain the core gameplay and visual techniques it mustered in those originals - something that GBA is essentially incapable of doing. The visuals will still be in a different league, but the gameplay does not have to be now. Controller differences aside, a clever developer can make a experience almost identical asides from visuals (or games with particularly advanced physics engines)

Now, this is not an insult to GBA. The GBA has tons of spectacular original titles, and I'm very fond of it. I think in the event that the PSP still does have scaled back development (which I actually believe it will), it will still have plenty of classic games like GBA.

But Mash's suppossition that handhelds will now move to console budgets and philoshies strikes me more as whishful thinking than anything. The market would have to support such a shift, and there's no real clear indication that it's going to happen. Hell, there's no clear indication that developers want such a shift either.

I agree there is no clear indiciation yet. But better not to predict one way or another.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

There's a base assumption here that the handheld has to be at the level of technical polish as the current console to match what I'm talking about , and that is nto true at all.

It has much, much more to do with development philosophy, and even more to do with market forces.

If the PSP or DS are cheap enough to develop for and expand beyof the current market of hardcore games + me-too kids, I think I'll get the experience I want. I don't need to Million-DOllar-Budget game to make me happy-- but the games that aren't shovelware do need to get made and developed. THAT'S the threshhold. I don't expect portables to match at-home experince in graphics or even technical prowess. Just in game depth.

You can do that on a Game Boy Color, frankly-- if you have the market and the developers.

I *would* like to see some of that technical prowess used to make certain types of games I enjoy, but I'll be satisfied if we simply get deeper game experiences than almost all of the non-RPG, non-port GBA library. (Those are pretty good).

SO the question becomes-- will these systems be popular enough, or competitive enough with each other to keep frm being the Shovelware Dumping Ground? I hope so. Early signs look bright.

 

[mashoutposse]

Again, there are at least three console quality games on the market just over a week from launch, so I don't think that a leap of faith is required to make the prediction that PSP games will be very close to their home console counterparts.

Unless you're suggesting the launch software will be the most sophisticated the system will ever see, I see no reason to disagree.

 

[Kiriku]

So you don't think Xenon or PS3 will allow game design to move beyond what's capable on current platforms?

Besides which, PSP is an analog and 4 buttons shy of replicating current controllers. There's going to be some immediately discernable level of control loss here.

Let's try plugging in some different platform into your current argument for some fun....

main difference is that games made in 3D will also stay in 3D for DS. Making 3D games in 2D can change the gameplay quite dramatically and make the experience a totally different one (which is what's been happening with popular console games being "remade" for GBA). Sure, Xbox games and the likes will look a lot better than respective DS versions, but at least the 3D gameplay and environment is possible to keep intact.

I'm not sure how much Xenon and PS3 will evolve game design. This gen didn't result in any huge changes IMO, apart from better graphics and more technical improvements (framerate, image quality). But maybe they got some tricks up their sleeve for the next-gen, I don't know. Do you know?

It feels like you're assuming I will disagree with you. Dare I say you're...baiting?
Because I actually agree with you to a certain extent. I believe PSP will be able to keep up with next-gen games better than the DS, obviously because of the better hardware. But yes, since DS can handle 3D properly (meaning game developers will primarily make 3D handheld versions of their popular console series) we can say roughly the same about thing about that handheld as well. Of course they won't be able to match the original versions, but I'm sure they will be much closer than the 3D-->2D games we've been seeing on GBA.

 

[jarrod]

But you just did. So there's two of you now!

So saying there's no clear indication of a sweeping industry shift is itself a sweeping industry shift? Are you still mad I took you to task on Ridge Racer?

But, in fact, talking specifically about ported games - it does. Very few "current gen" ported games on GBA are anything other than shit. There's an exception in Max Payne, but frankly I can't think of anything else. And it's not just "worse." We're talking games so god awful by comparrison that it's actually painful. Take a look at Dead to Rights (GBA) for example. Dead to Rights is already nothing to write home about. But on GBA? Words cannot properly describe...

I agree with that, the move to full 3D hardware makes the conole conversion easier now... but I don't see how this will magically equalize handhelds to console budgets or philosophies. I don't see the gulf getting any smaller with Xenon/PS3/Rev to PSP/DS.

...point is, with PSP, there will definitely be at least a minor shift.

For a year or two. Then it'll be like playing NeoGeo ports on a NES. :/

Much more capable than DS in your example above. Similarly, it also has a more "straight forward" method of control. Developers won't have to "simulate" analog control, essentially rendering another screen pointless.

But DS does have the option of "simulating" interfaces it lacks. How will PSP "simulate" a 2nd analog and 4 more buttons? How will Tony Hawk, SSX, Virtual On or Ape Escape work on PSP without some level of control redesign and restriction? It's different degrees of the same problem, and I agree things are simpler for PSP... but it's not exactly ideal either.

The visuals will still be in a different league, but the gameplay does not have to be now. Controller differences aside, a clever developer can make a experience almost identical asides from visuals (or games with particularly advanced physics engines)

Game design will still be limited though. Using the same logic any SNES game shoudl be able to faithfully replicated on NES outside the visuals. Any PS2 game is possible on PS1 outside visuals.

I think in the event that the PSP still does have scaled back development (which I actually believe it will), it will still have plenty of classic games like GBA.

This I agree with. Products designed around PSP (Ridge Racers, Lumines, Mercury) are already showing as preferable to conversions (NFSUR, Dynasty Warriors). PSP has amazing potentail as a handheld game platform, much more than as a console port machine.

I agree there is no clear indiciation yet.

Whoops, you just predicted a sweeping industry shift!

But better not to predict one way or another.

Too late now Nostradamus.

 

[Amir0x]

So saying there's no clear indication of a sweeping industry shift is itself a sweeping industry shift? Are you still mad I took you to task on Ridge Racer?

What? When did you "take me to task on Ridge Racer"? Because you never took me to task on Ridge Racer. Unless you think your hilariously wrong diatribe about how it's impossible to think one game was a step forward when it wasn't is somehow taking me to task. To wit: RRDS still sucks. RR64 still sucks. RR4 was a step forward for the series. But, this is a debate for another time.

I agree with that, the move to full 3D hardware makes the conole conversion easier now... but I don't see how this will magically equalize handhelds to console budgets or philosophies. I don't see the gulf getting any smaller with Xenon/PS3/Rev to PSP/DS.

A "port" won't magically require some huge expansion of budgetary resources. So theoretically if we're talking strictly about ports once again it's possible the PSP ports will actually be quite competent.

For a year or two. Then it'll be like playing NeoGeo ports on a NES. :/

jarrod wrote: "So saying there's no clear indication of a sweeping industry shift is itself a sweeping industry shift?"

You answered your own question! See, like I said, looks like there are two people making sweeping predictions!

But DS does have the option of "simulating" interfaces it lacks. How will PSP "simulate" a 2nd analog and 4 more buttons? How will Tony Hawk, SSX, Virtual On or Ape Escape work on PSP without some level of control redesign and restriction? It's different degrees of the same problem, and I agree things are simpler for PSP... but it's not exactly ideal either.

There must be control redesign. That's beside the point. The point is with PSP it is technically feasible to create remarkably similar game experiences with very little change in the translation.

Game design will still be limited though. Using the same logic any SNES game shoudl be able to faithfully replicated on NES outside the visuals. Any PS2 game is possible on PS1 outside visuals.

It has come to a point, jarrod, where we're reaching a ceiling. This is true, not all games are possible on NES that are with SNES, not all games are possible on PSX that are on PS2. The same should, then, hold true of PSP -> PS3. But, from a technological standpoint, the actual hit taken would likely be significantly less. Detail will obviously drop dramatically. And in games with very intense physics engines dramatic changes must be made. But for many games the translation can still be done solidly enough this time around that it might actually be negligible (gameplay wise) for the first time.

This I agree with. Products designed around PSP (Ridge Racers, Lumines, Mercury) are already showing as preferable to conversions (NFSUR, Dynasty Warriors). PSP has amazing potentail as a handheld game platform, much more than as a console port machine.

Why do you keep using NFSU:R as an example? We know little about it, except that it's supposed to be remarkably similar to its console versions.

Whoops, you just predicted a sweeping industry shift!

No I didn't, because we can based on our current evidence gather that there is no clear indication for a fact. However, just because there is no clear indication does not mean we can predict for a certainty what will happen one way or another - something that happens more than once in this debate on both sides of the fence with you and matt.

 

[Foobar]

I believe that the PSP is going to do for handhelds what the Playstation and Playstation 2 did for consoles. Handheld gaming is finally going to "grow up" and the PSP is going to end up overtaking the competition.

I can see the appeal of consoles to the adult market, but handhelds I just don't see this same "boom" happening that happened with PS2.

The reason is quite simple - adults have less time for such things. Only the hardcore gamer/techhead adult is gonna buy a PSP here in the US, otherwise it'll be dominated by kids. I have to make time for GBA as it is or let it replace time I could be playing on a console.

At the same time, I don't want what I get from a console on a handheld. I want something quick to pick up or put down. I don't need complexity or elaborate cinemas. A nice puzzle title, platform/action, RPG or strategy game is all I need. When I look at PSP I see a lot of cool games I'd rather play on my PS2, when I look at DS and GBA I see games I can't get on a console.

When I see Metal Gear Acid or Hot Shots on PSP, it feels right, but when I look at GT Mobile, Dynasty Warriors and other more console-ish titles, I'm not remotely interested. Some types of games just don't mesh with handhelds and vice versa.

Take Pokemon or Wario Ware, for example - they feel totally right on GBA, but when you apply them to Gamecube, those titles suddenly feel very lacking.

Now let's talk Dynasty Warriors, same fun game as PS2, right? But where's that great surround sound? Where's the big, crisp visuals I could get on a TV? And most importantly, where's the portability factor? Sleep modes are all well and good, but the ability to save at anytime, quit and turn the power off just ain't there in disc media. I would enjoy this more on a console where I can sit down and fully invest the time and get all my audio and visual kicks without having to constantly start and stop.

Its largely a game design thing. Games that are portable need to be made with being portable in mind. I just don't see that happening on PSP very much, there are only a handful of titles that really fit what a handheld game should do and most of those are from the usual suspects that gave them to us on GBA, like Konami.

 

[Sanjuro]

I dont see the PSP taking much ground in the handhelds. Nintendo has the advantage and the ability to fall back to the GBA and push more support into that. The number of GBAs sold it outstanding.

 

[jarrod]

There's a base assumption here that the handheld has to be at the level of technical polish as the current console to match what I'm talking about , and that is nto true at all.

It has much, much more to do with development philosophy, and even more to do with market forces.

If the PSP or DS are cheap enough to develop for and expand beyof the current market of hardcore games + me-too kids, I think I'll get the experience I want. I don't need to Million-DOllar-Budget game to make me happy-- but the games that aren't shovelware do need to get made and developed. THAT'S the threshhold. I don't expect portables to match at-home experince in graphics or even technical prowess. Just in game depth.

You can do that on a Game Boy Color, frankly-- if you have the market and the developers.

I *would* like to see some of that technical prowess used to make certain types of games I enjoy, but I'll be satisfied if we simply get deeper game experiences than almost all of the non-RPG, non-port GBA library. (Those are pretty good).

SO the question becomes-- will these systems be popular enough, or competitive enough with each other to keep frm being the Shovelware Dumping Ground? I hope so. Early signs look bright.

100% agreed. Though I'd actually say of early indications that's more the hardware manufacturers intentions rather than developer intentions or market trends. Developers are still mainly "mobile mided" and software sales for DS & PSP are almost identical to GBA even at this early stage. That could change though, especially with prodding from Sony and Nintendo.

Again, there are at least three console quality games on the market just over a week from launch, so I don't think that a leap of faith is required to make the prediction that PSP games will be very close to their home console counterparts.

Unless you're suggesting the launch software will be the most sophisticated the system will ever see, I see no reason to disagree.

Maybe you forgot Xenon was launching less than year from now? PSP does fine enough replicating current gen games, but it's a next gen handheld and next gen games will be quite out of it's reach. Enjoy the honeymoon Mash, you're looking at a nasty divorce in roughly 2 years.

I'm not sure how much Xenon and PS3 will evolve game design. This gen didn't result in any huge changes IMO, apart from better graphics and more technical improvements (framerate, image quality). But maybe they got some tricks up their sleeve for the next-gen, I don't know. Do you know?

It's not just visuals but scope and design. A game like Dynasty Warriors or GTA3 would've been nearly impossible on PS1 throwing around so many models and complicated environments so fast, even dramatically scaled back. They maybe could've been replicated in 2D (and indeed GTA was), but that's no better than a GBA/PS2 comparison really. An FX chipped SNES couldn't really handle a decent version of Mario 64 either. "Better" specs allow more than just better visuals, they open more general game design possibilities. I don't expect the next gen to be any different.

It feels like you're assuming I will disagree with you. Dare I say you're...baiting?

Well, just a little.

Because I actually agree with you to a certain extent. I believe PSP will be able to keep up with next-gen games better than the DS, obviously because of the better hardware. But yes, since DS can handle 3D properly (meaning game developers will primarily make 3D handheld versions of their popular console series) we can say roughly the same about thing about that handheld as well. Of course they won't be able to match the original versions, but I'm sure they will be much closer than the 3D-->2D games we've been seeing on GBA.

I agree with all that.

 

[seismologist]

As far as satisfying handheld experiences go. The DS isn't any less capable than the PSP. A Metroid Hunters could easily have just as deep single player game as Prime. The question is will developers really going to put that much effort into a handheld game.

And thats the one thing holding portable gaming back atm. Not the technology. So unless your talking ports I dont think many portable games are going to match what you see on consoles.
Even on PSP, you think developers are going to do full blown RPGs with hours upon hours of FMV . Or an exclusive GTA game as huge as San Andreas? Its just not going to happen.

 

[mashoutposse]

Maybe you forgot Xenon was launching less than year from now? PSP does fine enough replicating current gen games, but it's a next gen handheld and next gen games will be quite out of it's reach. Enjoy the honeymoon Mash, you're looking at a nasty divorce in roughly 2 years.

I think you are overstating the effect the next generation of consoles will have on the PSP. The graphics and capabilities put it firmly within this generation, which is one that I'm predicting will age much more gracefully than the 32/64 bit period (PS1/N64 were first-try 3D consoles, and it shows in retrospect). Soul Calibur, a 5.5 year old game, still looks great today, and will continue to look great in its own right even when we've seen Xenon/PS3 stuff. This gen is at the "16-bit" stage of 3D, where the graphics will still look nice years from now. Look at Final Fight, SF2, Contra 3, etc... all over a decade old, none of them are "ugly."

It's like Terminator 2 -- yes, it's nearly 15 (!) years old, but it could be released today, fit right in, and be enjoyable to most.

 

[Vibri]

For what it's worth, I have always been a staunch non-handheld gamer. PSP is the first handheld that's worth playing IMO. The screen fills your entire peripheral vision and the sound via headphones is so good, it's having a portable home theatre system.

 

[jarrod]

What? When did you "take me to task on Ridge Racer"? Because you never took me to task on Ridge Racer. Unless you think your hilariously wrong diatribe about how it's impossible to think one game was a step forward when it wasn't is somehow taking me to task. To wit: RRDS still sucks. RR64 still sucks. RR4 was a step forward for the series. But, this is a debate for another time.

Still upset I see.

A "port" won't magically require some huge expansion of budgetary resources. So theoretically if we're talking strictly about ports once again it's possible the PSP ports will actually be quite competent.

The same could be said of current handheld ports though. They're relatively low budget and low risk, usually reusing just art assents and building a whole new engine.

You answered your own question! See, like I said, looks like there are two people making sweeping predictions!

Three with your agreement actually. At least by the stadard you seem to be using for "sweeping prediction".

There must be control redesign. That's beside the point. The point is with PSP it is technically feasible to create remarkably similar game experiences with very little change in the translation.

For the time being. As time goes on though the gulf will widen dramatically with Xenon and then PS3's introduction.

It has come to a point, jarrod, where we're reaching a ceiling. This is true, not all games are possible on NES that are with SNES, not all games are possible on PSX that are on PS2. The same should, then, hold true of PSP -> PS3. But, from a technological standpoint, the actual hit taken would likely be significantly less. Detail will obviously drop dramatically. And in games with very intense physics engines dramatic changes must be made. But for many games the translation can still be done solidly enough this time around that it might actually be negligible (gameplay wise) for the first time.

It all goes back to the scope of the particular game. GT5's AI and physics engines will be impossible on PSP, regardless of visuals. While Chu-Chu Rocket is actually prefectly replicated on GBA. PSP has an advantage over DS & GBA in that it's only one generation behind rather than two, but you can still expect massive downgrades. Playing a port of MGS4 on PSP would be like playing MGS2 on DS, the shift will be massive and immediately recognizable.

Why do you keep using NFSU:R as an example? We know little about it, except that it's supposed to be remarkably similar to its console versions.

Not from the build I've seen...

...though maybe the delay allowed a gigantic turn around. Those shots are a couple months old.

No I didn't, because we can based on our current evidence gather that there is no clear indication for a fact. However, just because there is no clear indication does not mean we can predict for a certainty what will happen one way or another - something that happens more than once in this debate on both sides of the fence with you and matt.

Well, I'm essentially saying there is no clear indication of a shift, not that there won't be one. Indeed I've mentioned the manufacturers intentions to push demographic boundries and left the possibilituy of market shifts wide open. I've voiced what I think is likely, but I've made no concrete absolute prediction. No more than you anyway.

 

[jarrod]

I think you are overstating the effect the next generation of consoles will have on the PSP.

I think it'll be fairer to say one way or the other after we have a taste of what's possible. I think the effect should be comparable to giving someone the option of playing GGX on a console versus GGX on a GBA though.

The graphics and capabilities put it firmly within this generation, which is one that I'm predicting will age much more gracefully than the 32/64 bit period (PS1/N64 were first-try 3D consoles, and it shows in retrospect). Soul Calibur, a 5.5 year old game, still looks great today, and will continue to look great in its own right even when we've seen Xenon/PS3 stuff. This gen is at the "16-bit" stage of 3D, where the graphics will still look nice years from now. Look at Final Fight, SF2, Contra 3, etc... all over a decade old, none of them are "ugly."

Sure, I agree with all that. But really ugly is "subjective" too, and not really a good basis for predicting market trends. Your hypothesis of a console minded handheld still just doesn't hold water. GBA is similarly not "ugly" by your definition (replicating top of the line 16bit 2D rather effortlessly), yet it hasn't fundamentally shifted the market (though it has dramatically grown it).

It's like Terminator 2 -- yes, it's nearly 15 (!) years old, but it could be released today, fit right in, and be enjoyable to most.

Cinemantic comparisons are laughable. Film evolves so slowly as a visual medium it's not at all comparable, indeed it's almost static in direct comparison to videogames.

 

[seismologist]

The graphics and capabilities put it firmly within this generation, which is one that I'm predicting will age much more gracefully than the 32/64 bit period (PS1/N64 were first-try 3D consoles, and it shows in retrospect). Soul Calibur, a 5.5 year old game, still looks great today, and will continue to look great in its own right even when we've seen Xenon/PS3 stuff.

Next gen here will be games with massive vistas and huge draw distances that are nowhere near possible on the PSP. Those muddy textures and rough edges that you see in today's PS2 games are really going to start to stand out. When you look at Dead or Alive 4 and start thinking of a PSP version people are just going to laugh.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I see emerging from this a very subtle rag on the PSP,which I can only attribute to brand loyalty.

From what I see today, it looks like the PSP is making moves out of the handheld ghetto and some people think that's a futile direction. As noted, I hope it's not (and that DS, by competing, comes along for the ride). We'll see.

Thanks to all who shared their similar experiences and their experience with the new handhelds.

 

[jarrod]

I see emerging from this a very subtle rag on the PSP,which I can only attribute to brand loyalty.

Well that's inevitable on GAF. In fact I could argue the topic started under similar a similar pretense targeted at Nintendo.

 

[seismologist]

From what I see today, it looks like the PSP is making moves out of the handheld ghetto and some people think that's a futile direction.

I dont think its futile. I welcome better graphics but I think portable games are gonna be watered down to some extent no matter what. Maybe I'll change my mind after playing Minna no Golf this afternoon


EDIT: Actually in some ways I'm finding DS games to be enhanced over the console version thanks to the touch screen control. Tiger Woods is a perfect example, it's so much more playable than the console version. BUT at the same time it feels watered down and feels rushed in some parts. I guess this would be better if they could do a 1-1 port from the console version.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Because I am less than satisfied with my GBA? Read into that what you like, I've actually praised Nintendo for some things here, and considered DS and PSP equally. Only after hearing impressions do I favor the PSP, and I'm still wait-and-see on that. I don't even bother to credit the PSP's graphics, becuase I don't think they really matter (nor does the stylus thing on the DS). And it's also just my taste, which should not be generalized.

That I don't love my GBA should not be taken as any sort of general swipe at Nintendo. It's my taste. And even still, there are good games. I'm wanting more.

 

[jarrod]

That I don't love my GBA should not be taken as any sort of general swipe at Nintendo. It's my taste. And even still, there are good games. I'm wanting more.

Taste that could arguably be rooted in brand loyalty...

Not me. I look upon 85-91 as the Dark Ages of videogaming. Went off to Amigaland and didn't come out until Sega forced Nintendo to do something worthwhile.

When Nintendo decided that little printers and card readers for GB were more important than games, and that gimmicks were more important than good games design, they lost me. Mario 64 is the weakest (if most technically impressive) Mario I've played. I did not play SMS.

Nintendo? Who cares. I'm greatful a "real" videogame maker is soon to realease a handheld in the US.

...seems to me you could very potentially have an axe to grind with Nintendo, and this thread could easily be a subtle "swipe" at their handheld record. If you're going to dish out remarks equating PSP criticism as some sort of "swipe" derived only from brand loyalty, be prepared to have your own motivations questioned.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Any "axe" I have to grind is based on my taste in games, not the other way around. And there's nothing subtle about my opinion of their past handheld record-- it was disappointing, *especially* early on. I even say I hated Link's Awakening above. I also asked for DS impressions becuase it looks like Nintendo's trend with handhelds is improving (to my taste) over time. As I noted, the GBA is the best GB. I want to know if people who feel the same way I do ("axe grinding" or whatever) think the DS breaks out of that mold. The answer seems to be "somewhat" from people with similar taste/experience to me and "what are you talking about?" from people who love the GBA.

Welcome to Gaming-Age's Doctrine of Taste, where if it's not a system war, it soon will be. Perhaps if you weren't so defensive, the anti-PSP stuff wouldn't be leaking in.


EDIT: The Nintendo barb above was in direct response to somebody calling people not liking ceratin NIntendo games "crazy" and saying they were the only real videogame company, btw. It was designed to tweak. Looks like it worked. But as I have said here, I'm more interested in handheld competition driving the DS more toward my taste in games (especially since it has a better battery and may well dominate the market).

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

jarrod: It's not the criticism itself, it's the appearance out of context.

When I repeat the gfx are not the driving factor and still people respond with "those gfx may look nice today, but they'll be dated soon" It sounds like FUD. Especially since I'm not seeing any anti-Nintendo FUD, unless you consider my lukewarm evaluation of their past efforts-- which is geramane to the thread, since I'm sorting out what *I* would like.

 

[jarrod]

It's still brand loyalty, or more correctly anti-brand loyalty. Regardless of intangible notions of "taste". You opened this door, categorizing down individuals into camps, so don't get pissy when the microsope shifts.

 

[Agent X]

Please give me Lynx emu for GBA or PSP

I want portable slimeworld

Yes!

Before Doom was even written, this game taught me what "Deathmatch" was all about. Lynxable heaven!

Here's another vote for a remake of Slime World. Multiplayer game #5 is the stuff legends are made of. There's nothing like letting your friends plunder a room for powerups while you sneakily drop a Mega Bomb in there.

There's a base assumption here that the handheld has to be at the level of technical polish as the current console to match what I'm talking about , and that is nto true at all.

It has much, much more to do with development philosophy, and even more to do with market forces.

If the PSP or DS are cheap enough to develop for and expand beyof the current market of hardcore games + me-too kids, I think I'll get the experience I want. I don't need to Million-DOllar-Budget game to make me happy-- but the games that aren't shovelware do need to get made and developed. THAT'S the threshhold. I don't expect portables to match at-home experince in graphics or even technical prowess. Just in game depth.

You can do that on a Game Boy Color, frankly-- if you have the market and the developers.

That's true. Rather than trying to shoehorn big-name games into small packages by stripping out key elements, developers should just make good games that are worth playing. Sometimes, this means that certain games might be too ambitious for the system, and probably aren't worth porting over. In that case, look towards a quality original game that takes advantages of the strengths of the format. Slime World for the Lynx (mentioned above) was a good example; for something similar on the Game Boy side, I'll mention Face Ball 2000.

I *would* like to see some of that technical prowess used to make certain types of games I enjoy, but I'll be satisfied if we simply get deeper game experiences than almost all of the non-RPG, non-port GBA library. (Those are pretty good).

SO the question becomes-- will these systems be popular enough, or competitive enough with each other to keep frm being the Shovelware Dumping Ground? I hope so. Early signs look bright.

I'm hopeful, too.

 

[jarrod]

jarrod: It's not the criticism itself, it's the appearance out of context.

When I repeat the gfx are not the driving factor and still people respond with "those gfx may look nice today, but they'll be dated soon" It sounds like FUD.

Sure, but I'm not seeing any direct responses of that nature to your comments. Can you point out this blatantly out of context criticisim for me?

Especially since I'm not seeing any anti-Nintendo FUD, unless you consider my lukewarm evaluation of their past efforts-- which is geramane to the thread, since I'm sorting out what *I* would like.

It was more a potential indication on my part than anything concrete. I don't honestly think you "have it out for Nintendo" or anything, I just wanted to show how your broad assumption works in multiple directions. Maybe I expect better or something, you're one of the better posters around here.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

If it were anto-Brand loyalty, why would I praise Advance Wars? Why would I say that Mario v Donkey Kong was along the lines of a good game that I would like? Why would I own a GBA, GBA-SP, and before that a GB Color, GB Pocket, and a classic GB?

There's a STYLE I don't get into, and a shovelware ethic that concerns me-- brand is not the issue. I started this thread precisesly to see if a) the DS was breaking out and/or b) the PSP was another brand of the same disappointment.

So far, some enthused PSP fans have come here and praised it, some others have said "I must not like handheld gaming" and an overlap of those people have started countering the enthusiasm of the PSP fans. A couple of people showed DS enthusiasm, but mildy. Those who questioned my taste were easy to start filtering, since we don't apparently share enough taste or you are not willing to understand mine enough to inform me.

I'm taking this all into consideration, including mashoutposse's known Sony preference (I've been on GA for far too long). I am cautiosly optimistic abotu both systems, perferring the PSP based on resposes here and some research into upcoming games. What I was looking for here was game-library stuff. Hawdware wise, I actually slightly prefer the DS (cost and battery) over the PSP (controls, shape, screen). And as noted, system power is a non-issue, mostly. Unless some killer app that needs it comes along, but I don't think it will.

Anyway, my comment about the anti-PSP element seems to have flushed you out of the bushes at least. I can now completely ignore your opinion and know I am not missing anything.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Sure, but I'm not seeing any direct responses of that nature to your comments. Can you point out this blatantly out of context criticisim for me?



It was more a potential indication on my part than anything concrete. I don't honestly think you "have it out for Nintendo" or anything, I just wanted to show how your broad assumption works in multiple directions. Maybe I expect better or something, you're one of the better posters around here.

Follow the thread from the start and look for the first comments from seismologist, I think it was, then yourself. Once Mash got all excited the "PSP ain't all that" started. There really wasn't any need for it in context, especially after I took the conversation back to issues like game depth and length (someting, I will note yet again, the GBA library excells at in game genres that I simply happen to not care for, not fault of anybody's but mine).

This was after I rebuffed the indirect and insulting "portable games must not be for you" comments from several (3, I think) people including you.