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[commedieu]

(Stops using MySpace)

 

[trembli0s]

That chart is pretty damning. That world map also.

Not sure why folks carry the water for such a regressive religion

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Are they basing this belief off the extra fabulous comic of "I'm sorry mother I've seen everything"?

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

I heard somebody describe Saudi Arabia as 'the ISIS that made it'. Stuff like this just bolsters that belief.

And these people are our allies!

The irony is that we are their allies to ensure that the EU's oil interests are maintained and the EU thus stays stable, as we need the EU's support of our presence in Europe to stay the world superpower...
...however, the violent Islamist ideology perpetuated by Saudi Arabia and the waves of refugees fleeing its results now threatens to destabilize the EU is a much more direct and spectacular manner than energy issues ever did.

I guess realpolitik is actually bad after all.

 

[TheSpecialOne]

Christianity has hundreds, if not thousands of years of shameful history behind it and tons of people who still keep it up. If someone's light zinger of a reminder on a message board is too much, better just bury your head in the sand and sing 'la la, all is good in the world'.

You have issues that you need to sort out.

 

[deadlast]

This one of those Saudi = ISIS moments, right?

 

[Kallor]

This turned into WhatAboutChristianity real fast lmao

 

[dabig2]

Kamed Daoud. Algerian writer.

He wrote a two great op-eds for the NYT.

Yeah. This one is really good and was probably what the poster was referring to:
Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It

...
All of which leaves one skeptical of Western democracies’ thunderous declarations regarding the necessity of fighting terrorism. Their war can only be myopic, for it targets the effect rather than the cause. Since ISIS is first and foremost a culture, not a militia, how do you prevent future generations from turning to jihadism when the influence of Fatwa Valley and its clerics and its culture and its immense editorial industry remains intact?

Is curing the disease therefore a simple matter? Hardly. Saudi Arabia remains an ally of the West in the many chess games playing out in the Middle East. It is preferred to Iran, that gray Daesh. And there’s the trap. Denial creates the illusion of equilibrium. Jihadism is denounced as the scourge of the century but no consideration is given to what created it or supports it. This may allow saving face, but not saving lives.

Daesh has a mother: the invasion of Iraq. But it also has a father: Saudi Arabia and its religious-industrial complex. Until that point is understood, battles may be won, but the war will be lost. Jihadists will be killed, only to be reborn again in future generations and raised on the same books.

...

Wahhabism is a poison, and it didn't start with ISIS nor Al-Qaeda nor any other terrorist group you can name off from the last 40 years since the rise of modern Islamic terrorism. It has its beginnings in the hearts and minds of hardliners who always had protection and support from the House of Saud and those aligned with it.

 

[Square2015]

Islam has hundreds, if not thousands of years of shameful history behind it and tons of people who still keep it up. If someone's light zinger of a reminder on a message board is too much, better just bury your head in the sand and sing 'la la, all is good in the world'.

Or this.

 

[Syncytia]

I am a hundred percent with you. However, it is worth noting that the issue of homophobia is a much larger one in the Muslim world.

I doubt that you would get such numbers in any US state.

Many of those countries in Africa also have large Christian populations and they are also very against homosexuality. It's not just a Muslim thing, it's something that is part of their culture. In the US, supporting LGBT rights was a lot different even only 20 years ago.

Edit: Not a detailed chart, since it groups all of Sub Saharan Africa together, but you can still see that across that region it is majority Christian. (Left column shows demographics as of 2010)

 

[AcademicSaucer]

This lunacy is not just specific to Saudi Arabia.

(From 2013)

If you look at Latin America and compare it to the Middle East, I dont know how you can argue that christianity is at the same level of prejudice against homosexuals than islam.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

Yeah. This one is really good and was probably what the poster was referring to:
Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It


Wahhabism is a poison, and it didn't start with ISIS nor Al-Qaeda nor any other terrorist group you can name off from the last 40 years since the rise of modern Islamic terrorism. It has its beginnings in the hearts and minds of hardliners who always had protection and support from the House of Saud and those aligned with it.

Yes, but to depose the House of Saud would basically require a full military invasion of Saudi Arabia. And while they don't have nukes their forces would put up a fight. I don't think anyone wants to get involved in that kind of war. So we let this poison flow and try to cut off any tumors.
However, the "KICK THEIR ASS AND TAKE THEIR GAS" mentality is growing in popularity in conservative circles, so we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

If you look at Latin America and compare it to the Middle East, I dont know how you can argue that christianity is at the same level of prejudice against homosexuals than islam.

Christianity is no where near as conservatives as Islam is, which makes sense; the latter faith is centuries newer and has yet to go through many of the changes Christianity has.
To be honest, I don't know why people are so in denial about what Islam is really like. It is almost psychotic, especially compared to how much flak Christianity gets.

 

[Azuran]

This lunacy is not just specific to Saudi Arabia.

(From 2013)

I didn't know the Caribbean was just as bad as the Middle East and Africa. So disgusting to see that in this side of the world.

 

[stuminus3]

In the US, supporting LGBT rights was a lot different even only 20 years ago.

This is very true and I love that it is because it shows that progress is possible.

For somewhere like Saudia Arabia the question is what can we do? It's so out of reach and so much bigger than anything I think we can change in our lifetimes and that's super frustrating. We can and should pressure our own politicians for change because the hypocrisy on a global state is quite disturbing.

 

[God Dayumm]

If you look at Latin America and compare it to the Middle East, I dont know how you can argue that christianity is at the same level of prejudice against homosexuals than islam.

I can see some predominantly christian countries in Africa in pink, most are grey. Not nearly as many as the islam countries, but they should be in blue.

 

[Syncytia]

This is very true and I love that it is because it shows that progress is possible.

For somewhere like Saudia Arabia the question is what can we do? It's so out of reach and so much bigger than anything I think we can change in our lifetimes and that's super frustrating. We can and should pressure our own politicians for change because the hypocrisy on a global state is quite disturbing.

The 'what can we do?' is a difficult question. As an outsider/westerner/christian/etc. not only is it difficult to try and convince someone to change their perception of the world on issues like this, but it can be rude and offensive. This goes for a lot of other things, even trying to get western healthcare to rural places in low development countries. Attitudes and belief systems are just different than what we have, and coming in as an outsider saying "No, do this" is a very complicated issue.

 

[Kinitari]

Head of the UN Human Rights Council folks

They are not

 

[ElTorro]

Many of those countries in Africa also have large Christian populations and they are also very against homosexuality. It's not just a Muslim thing, it's something that is part of their culture. In the US, supporting LGBT rights was a lot different even only 20 years ago.

It's not just any kind of culture that is at fault here. It's religious doctrine first and foremost; and world-wide at the moment it's Islam specifically. Homosexuality is very clearly and specifically condemned in its doctrinal scriptures. Authoritative Hadith on the issue also very clearly prescribe the death penalty for homosexual acts. The fact that many Christians take similar fundamental stances does not take away from the large role that religious dogma is playing here. In fact, it just reinforces the conclusion, especially since the progress in the West had to be fought—and continues—against a huge Christian opposition. Just imagine if The Bible and the Qur'an would clearly state that "Do not harm men who have sex with other men. It is a grave sin to harm them." We would have very different maps and charts to look at.

 

[Syncytia]

It's not just any kind of culture that is at fault here. It's religious doctrine first and foremost; and world-wide at the moment it's Islam specifically. Homosexuality is very clearly and specifically condemned in its doctrinal scriptures. Authoritative Hadith on the issue also very clearly prescribe the death penalty for homosexual acts. The fact that many Christians take similar fundamental stances does not take away from the large role that religious dogma is playing here. In fact, it just reinforces the conclusion, especially since the progress in the West had to be fought—and continues—against a huge Christian opposition. Just imagine if The Bible and the Qur'an would clearly state that "Do not harm men who have sex with other men. It is a grave sin to harm them." We would have very different maps and charts to look at.

Yeah, you're totally right, I just generally put religion in with culture since it can have a massive impact on the culture of a given society.

 

[Kinitari]

It's not just any kind of culture that is at fault here. It's religious doctrine first and foremost; and world-wide at the moment it's Islam specifically. Homosexuality is very clearly and specifically condemned in its doctrinal scriptures. Authoritative Hadith on the issue also very clearly prescribe the death penalty for homosexual acts. The fact that many Christians take similar fundamental stances does not take away from the large role that religious dogma is playing here. In fact, it just reinforces the conclusion, especially since the progress in the West had to be fought—and continues—against a huge Christian opposition. Just imagine if The Bible and the Qur'an would clearly state that "Do not harm men who have sex with other men. It is a grave sin to harm them." We would have very different maps and charts to look at.

Or even just "gay people are cool, let them be, I ain't got no beef with them".

You'd still have those that hate, but the religions wouldn't reinforce it, and the numbers would probably be significantly lower, because someone would just pull out a bible or Quran and say "you can pretty clearly see that every mention of homosexuality is positive, in fact this whole book is a glowing review" and that would be that.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

Christianity has hundreds, if not thousands of years of shameful history behind it and tons of people who still keep it up. If someone's light zinger of a reminder on a message board is too much, better just bury your head in the sand and sing 'la la, all is good in the world'.

I never understand this line of thinking when it's often posted.

 

[ibyea]

If you look at Latin America and compare it to the Middle East, I dont know how you can argue that christianity is at the same level of prejudice against homosexuals than islam.

I see many Christians country not in the right there. Furthermore the gray colors are deceiving. Russia is not a good place for homosexual people at all for example.

 

[ibyea]

As for the story, typical Saudi Arabia. I can't wait for the day the US treats the country as a pariah.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

This lunacy is not just specific to Saudi Arabia.

(From 2013)

I'm noticing a correlation here... Can't quite put my finger on it though.

 

[Resident_UA]

Looking at the countries where homosexuality is criminalized I see about even split between Christian countries and Muslim countries. It seems like some posters here are making conclusions simply because of their hate towards specific religion...

For some context: Meet the American Pastor Behind Uganda's Anti-Gay Crackdown

 

[emag]

I am a hundred percent with you. However, it is worth noting that the issue of homophobia is a much larger one in the Muslim world.

I doubt that you would get such numbers in any US state.

Today? Maybe not. But 30 years ago almost 90% of Americans considered homosexuality to be immoral in the 1987 Time survey.

 

[BobbyRobby]

I don't think we should be supporting this country. That said, it's crazy how ravenously Westerners try to shift the blame on themselves for Islamic hatred of gays.

Yes, the christian GOP is anti gay in many respects. They try to shut down gay marriage and that is awful, but to say that is somehow as bad as putting gays to death is crazy.

Some blame has to be placed. You can't just throw up your hands say it's a different culture, and pretend we are just as bad.

 

[Replicant]

Both religions are equally vile in how they teach its followers about gay people.

I think the difference is the system in which the religion thrives. Human rights is pretty close to non-existent in many islamic countries and that is not acceptable. For a country to advocate killing its citizens due to their sexual preference should be a crime in itself.

 

[rjinaz]

I am a hundred percent with you. However, it is worth noting that the issue of homophobia is a much larger one in the Muslim world.

I doubt that you would get such numbers in any US state.

That I have no doubt of, even without the graph. Because unlike in the US and I imagine most Christian countries, being gay won't get you executed or thrown in prison. People are obviously going to be more hostile towards it for that reason.

 

[BigBeauford]

Always got time to divert from a topic about a country that's actually in favor of and does execute people for being gay, to rip on Christianity.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Fucking reprehensible.

 

[Angelus Errare]

If you look at Latin America and compare it to the Middle East, I dont know how you can argue that christianity is at the same level of prejudice against homosexuals than islam.

You're comparing a bunch of countries that are theocracies to countries that are democracies of some sort. That isn't really an indication that X religion is less prejudice than Y religion. What you're seeing is that in X country religion takes a back seat to the law, where as in Y country religion makes up the country's law.

I'm willing to believe if America was a Theocracy founded on Christianity, we'd be right up there in the "what the fuck is wrong with these people" charts easily.

 

[Akronis]

You're comparing a bunch of countries that are theocracies to countries that are democracies of some sort. That isn't really an indication that X religion is less prejudice than Y religion. What you're seeing is that in X country religion takes a back seat to the law, where as in Y country religion makes up the country's law.

I'm willing to believe if America was a Theocracy founded on Christianity, we'd be right up there in the "what the fuck is wrong with these people" charts easily.

Yup, these are my thoughts as well.

 

[atr0cious]

I'm willing to believe if America was a Theocracy founded on Christianity, we'd be right up there in the "what the fuck is wrong with these people" charts easily.

At the state level we're long past that point. And don't forget Christianity once condoned slavery.

 

[potatohead]

Oh look it's our favourite allies in the Middle East.

How much they've changed for the better! /s

 

[Fusebox]

Gosh aren't you big and clever.

I think you'll find most modern American Christians don't actually do that. But sure, keep spreading ignorance and hate. That'll fix things.

You're a huge part of the problem you know, regardless of the exaggerations within.
You realize how hypocritical your post is? You're mad at Christians for calling out a group...
Meaning you're doing the thing you hate.

And as the disclaimer: I'm Christian and openly pro gay.
And your post is downright offensive to some.

I'm used to both the Christians who are anti gay and those who are anti Christian, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to call out people being obnoxious.

You guys need to educate yourselves, he wasn't being flippant he was referencing actual modern events:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ti-gay-conservative-evangelicals-9193593.html

 

[deltatheta]

It's funny how much pearl clutching there is when criticism of a privileged group gets perceived as slightly too harsh.

Not all Christians are anti gay, but I'm not sure how that's a relevant point unless you believe that every single Muslim is anti gay.

 

[RustyNails]

You're comparing a bunch of countries that are theocracies to countries that are democracies of some sort. That isn't really an indication that X religion is less prejudice than Y religion. What you're seeing is that in X country religion takes a back seat to the law, where as in Y country religion makes up the country's law.

I'm willing to believe if America was a Theocracy founded on Christianity, we'd be right up there in the "what the fuck is wrong with these people" charts easily.

Yup, not to mention that dictators have been propped by the west for decades over there. People forget but Ottoman Empire decriminalized homosexuality when entire west did not. Majority of Middle Eastern countries follow their colonialist's penal code. One country I read still had the Napeolonic penal code which had legalized honor killings, which wasn't there before.

 

[emag]

Yup, not to mention that dictators have been propped by the west for decades over there. People forget but Ottoman Empire decriminalized homosexuality when entire west did not. Majority of Middle Eastern countries follow their colonialist's penal code. One country I read still had the Napeolonic penal code which had legalized honor killings, which wasn't there before.

British colonialism and the criminalization of homosexuality is a compelling analysis of British colonial anti-homosexuality laws and how they shaped their modern colonies' current laws.

For the record, Saudi Arabia hasn't actually executed anyone for homosexuality in recent history. That's not to say that KSA isn't bad on sexual/LGBT issues -- several people have been given prison time and/or fined and/or lashed for public cross-dressing and/or prostitution.

 

[BobbyRobby]

Yup, not to mention that dictators have been propped by the west for decades over there. People forget but Ottoman Empire decriminalized homosexuality when entire west did not. Majority of Middle Eastern countries follow their colonialist's penal code. One country I read still had the Napeolonic penal code which had legalized honor killings, which wasn't there before.

The West and Christianity reformed because people challenged its ideology.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Always got time to divert from a topic about a country that's actually in favor of and does execute people for being gay, to rip on Christianity.

I believe this happens once a day.

 

[Aske]

Is religious superstition the only reason various societies are homicidally anti-gay? We know there's much more to anti-Western terrorism than religion, for example.

 

[Astral Dog]

Is religious superstition the only reason various societies are homicidally anti-gay? We know there's much more to anti-Western terrorism than religion, for example.

Who knows, fear, disgust,discrimination,tribalism, morals?

Being on a "neutral" range is one thing but im not sure what else craves homicide for gays, you could pull off an species theory but i doubt science goes that far either.

 

[Syncytia]

The West and Christianity reformed because people challenged its ideology.

You can't challenge ideology in Saudi Arabia because you will get arrested and possibly executed.

 

[Vibranium]

It never ceases to amuse me that the two most genuinely villainous nations in the Middle East are both Western allies.

It's also really fucking despairing. Not a word will be said about this from any Western nation, meanwhile Hilary Clinton will continue to espouse how much she "cares" about LGBT rights.

She'll just go on about how the West needs to "stand by" allies like Israel and Saudi Arabia.

Man, I wish the world stopped dealing with these buggers.

 

[orochi91]

House of Saud keeps trucking along.

Curious to see how its allies in the West will respond.

 

[Azzanadra]

She'll just go on about how the West needs to "stand by" allies like Israel and Saudi Arabia.

Man, I wish the world stopped dealing with these buggers.

This is one of those "enabling" relationships.

Not a fan of this country though, I hesitate to think of a country more dogmatic and authoritarian than Saudia Arabia. maybe Turkey should just reinstate the Ottoman Empire and take over the Muslim world, because as much as I hate Erdoğan, he's practically Bernie Sanders compared to the government of SA.

 

[Deserted Maniac Island]

Who knows, fear, disgust,discrimination,tribalism, morals?

Being on a "neutral" range is one thing but im not sure what else craves homicide for gays, you could pull off an species theory but i doubt science goes that far either.

I don't like the negative use of tribalism, tribes are not inherently bad, tribes are just a social formations, like bands, chiefdoms, and states (The one we live in). But this is besides the point.

The problem is not the actual culture it self (Cultures naturally change over time, some times very rapidly, and attitudes towards gay people will and have changed), it the reinforcing cycle of government policies. Even in the west, the government has so much power reinforcing and creating new cultural norms, this is happing in Saudi Arabia. Ideas of gender (And sexuality) are reinforced in every sector of peoples lives (From getting government IDs, to restaurants having family and single sections, i.e. female and male sections). We shouldn't expect every culture to be have our same values (Because our values are not inherently better or worse), these maladaptive culture elements change over time, but the government stops this from happing, by repressing protests and cultural discourse.

 

[BocoDragon]

I just love the suggestion in certain Eastern hemisphere countries that gays are created by Western lifestyles, or social media, or entertainment......

It's not freedom of speech exposing what was always there, hiding in fear. Nope.

 

[Darksol]

Is religious superstition the only reason various societies are homicidally anti-gay? We know there's much more to anti-Western terrorism than religion, for example.

I'm sure religion is the driving factor in most if not all anti-gay communities. Also, genital mutilation is almost entirely the domain of the religious.