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Say goodbye to cashiers in 2,500 U.S. McDonalds by the end of 2017.

Ooccoo

Member
This is increasingly going to be the future we will live in folks. Human beings wont have any need eventually for anything. Humanoid robots coupled with advance AI will make the idea of humans needing to work obsolete.

I disagree. You will always need people for a lot of jobs. I'm working in the intellectual disability and autism spectrum disorders field. No robot could ever do that job.

What will be 'interesting' to see is the vanishing of low-paid jobs like McDonald's and such. It will lead to more social problems since poorly educated people won't be able to pay their bills if all jobs require more skills.

I also agree universal income should be a thing, and that's coming from someone who makes a decent income. The problem is where I live we are already drowned in taxes so it might be a hard sell for the population unless the gouvernment eats all the costs, which is highly unlikely.
 

Theonik

Member
I think you're correct that those workers probably never found employment again and many of them died in poverty. However, that was in a time of almost zero mobility. More recently, in the UK we have seen industries fall by the side, such as coal mining and whilst unemployment spiked immediately afterwards, it then dropped and continued to drop.

You can argue that skilled labour is being replaced by unskilled labour and I would probably agree with that but I'm not sure how that relates to McDonald's cashiers, albeit that you weren't saying that it did.
Physical mobility is much better than the 1800s these days of course but you would also be incorrect in assuming these communities themselves actually recovered, there were also pretty massive long term social implications to industrialisation some positive (abolition of slavery) some less so. In a society where there was perfect mobility none of this would be a problem but that's not the case. Eliminating the low-skill labour that came from industrialisation will cause something similar.
 
Just no. Using past results to predict future outcomes is a recipe for disaster.

The new industries created by automation will require individuals to have a far more valuable resource (as in education, not manual labor) compared to textile workers from the 1800s.

Depending on where one resides, education may not be cheap as well. Given that a good percentage of these future jobs requires a STEM degree just means more people will be left out.

Also, look at the renewable energy industry. Plenty of jobs are being created, but I don't see coal miners becoming mechanical engineers anytime soon. I'll even say most solar technician jobs are beyond them unless they go to a dedicated trade school or community college.

The miners may not be becoming solar technicians but, at least in the UK, they are doing something because unemployment is very low, assuming they haven't all retired by now.

long article from The Economist on the subject:

SITTING IN AN office in San Francisco, Igor Barani calls up some medical scans on his screen. He is the chief executive of Enlitic, one of a host of startups applying deep learning to medicine, starting with the analysis of images such as X-rays and CT scans. It is an obvious use of the technology. Deep learning is renowned for its superhuman prowess at certain forms of image recognition; there are large sets of labelled training data to crunch; and there is tremendous potential to make health care more accurate and efficient.

Dr Barani (who used to be an oncologist) points to some CT scans of a patient’s lungs, taken from three different angles. Red blobs flicker on the screen as Enlitic’s deep-learning system examines and compares them to see if they are blood vessels, harmless imaging artefacts or malignant lung nodules. The system ends up highlighting a particular feature for further investigation. In a test against three expert human radiologists working together, Enlitic’s system was 50% better at classifying malignant tumours and had a false-negative rate (where a cancer is missed) of zero, compared with 7% for the humans. Another of Enlitic’s systems, which examines X-rays to detect wrist fractures, also handily outperformed human experts. The firm’s technology is currently being tested in 40 clinics across Australia.

A computer that dispenses expert radiology advice is just one example of how jobs currently done by highly trained white-collar workers can be automated, thanks to the advance of deep learning and other forms of artificial intelligence. The idea that manual work can be carried out by machines is already familiar; now ever-smarter machines can perform tasks done by information workers, too. What determines vulnerability to automation, experts say, is not so much whether the work concerned is manual or white-collar but whether or not it is routine. Machines can already do many forms of routine manual labour, and are now able to perform some routine cognitive tasks too. As a result, says Andrew Ng, a highly trained and specialised radiologist may now be in greater danger of being replaced by a machine than his own executive assistant: “She does so many different things that I don’t see a machine being able to automate everything she does any time soon.”

So which jobs are most vulnerable? In a widely noted study published in 2013, Carl Benedikt Frey and Michael Osborne examined the probability of computerisation for 702 occupations and found that 47% of workers in America had jobs at high risk of potential automation. In particular, they warned that most workers in transport and logistics (such as taxi and delivery drivers) and office support (such as receptionists and security guards) “are likely to be substituted by computer capital”, and that many workers in sales and services (such as cashiers, counter and rental clerks, telemarketers and accountants) also faced a high risk of computerisation. They concluded that “recent developments in machine learning will put a substantial share of employment, across a wide range of occupations, at risk in the near future.” Subsequent studies put the equivalent figure at 35% of the workforce for Britain (where more people work in creative fields less susceptible to automation) and 49% for Japan.

What determines vulnerability to automation is not so much whether the work concerned is manual or white-collar but whether or not it is routine
Economists are already worrying about “job polarisation”, where middle-skill jobs (such as those in manufacturing) are declining but both low-skill and high-skill jobs are expanding. In effect, the workforce bifurcates into two groups doing non-routine work: highly paid, skilled workers (such as architects and senior managers) on the one hand and low-paid, unskilled workers (such as cleaners and burger-flippers) on the other. The stagnation of median wages in many Western countries is cited as evidence that automation is already having an effect—though it is hard to disentangle the impact of offshoring, which has also moved many routine jobs (including manufacturing and call-centre work) to low-wage countries in the developing world. Figures published by the Federal Reserve Bank of St Louis show that in America, employment in non-routine cognitive and non-routine manual jobs has grown steadily since the 1980s, whereas employment in routine jobs has been broadly flat (see chart). As more jobs are automated, this trend seems likely to continue.

And this is only the start. “We are just seeing the tip of the iceberg. No office job is safe,” says Sebastian Thrun, an AI professor at Stanford known for his work on self-driving cars. Automation is now “blind to the colour of your collar”, declares Jerry Kaplan, another Stanford academic and author of “Humans Need Not Apply”, a book that predicts upheaval in the labour market. Gloomiest of all is Martin Ford, a software entrepreneur and the bestselling author of “Rise of the Robots”. He warns of the threat of a “jobless future”, pointing out that most jobs can be broken down into a series of routine tasks, more and more of which can be done by machines.

In previous waves of automation, workers had the option of moving from routine jobs in one industry to routine jobs in another; but now the same “big data” techniques that allow companies to improve their marketing and customer-service operations also give them the raw material to train machine-learning systems to perform the jobs of more and more people. “E-discovery” software can search mountains of legal documents much more quickly than human clerks or paralegals can. Some forms of journalism, such as writing market reports and sports summaries, are also being automated.

Predictions that automation will make humans redundant have been made before, however, going back to the Industrial Revolution, when textile workers, most famously the Luddites, protested that machines and steam engines would destroy their livelihoods. “Never until now did human invention devise such expedients for dispensing with the labour of the poor,” said a pamphlet at the time. Subsequent outbreaks of concern occurred in the 1920s (“March of the machine makes idle hands”, declared a New York Times headline in 1928), the 1930s (when John Maynard Keynes coined the term “technological unemployment”) and 1940s, when the New York Times referred to the revival of such worries as the renewal of an “old argument”.
As computers began to appear in offices and robots on factory floors, President John F. Kennedy declared that the major domestic challenge of the 1960s was to “maintain full employment at a time when automation…is replacing men”. In 1964 a group of Nobel prizewinners, known as the Ad Hoc Committee on the Triple Revolution, sent President Lyndon Johnson a memo alerting him to the danger of a revolution triggered by “the combination of the computer and the automated self-regulating machine”. This, they said, was leading to a new era of production “which requires progressively less human labour” and threatened to divide society into a skilled elite and an unskilled underclass. The advent of personal computers in the 1980s provoked further hand-wringing over potential job losses.

Yet in the past technology has always ended up creating more jobs than it destroys. That is because of the way automation works in practice, explains David Autor, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Automating a particular task, so that it can be done more quickly or cheaply, increases the demand for human workers to do the other tasks around it that have not been automated.

There are many historical examples of this in weaving, says James Bessen, an economist at the Boston University School of Law. During the Industrial Revolution more and more tasks in the weaving process were automated, prompting workers to focus on the things machines could not do, such as operating a machine, and then tending multiple machines to keep them running smoothly. This caused output to grow explosively. In America during the 19th century the amount of coarse cloth a single weaver could produce in an hour increased by a factor of 50, and the amount of labour required per yard of cloth fell by 98%. This made cloth cheaper and increased demand for it, which in turn created more jobs for weavers: their numbers quadrupled between 1830 and 1900. In other words, technology gradually changed the nature of the weaver’s job, and the skills required to do it, rather than replacing it altogether.


In a more recent example, automated teller machines (ATMs) might have been expected to spell doom for bank tellers by taking over some of their routine tasks, and indeed in America their average number fell from 20 per branch in 1988 to 13 in 2004, Mr Bessen notes. But that reduced the cost of running a bank branch, allowing banks to open more branches in response to customer demand. The number of urban bank branches rose by 43% over the same period, so the total number of employees increased. Rather than destroying jobs, ATMs changed bank employees’ work mix, away from routine tasks and towards things like sales and customer service that machines could not do.

The same pattern can be seen in industry after industry after the introduction of computers, says Mr Bessen: rather than destroying jobs, automation redefines them, and in ways that reduce costs and boost demand. In a recent analysis of the American workforce between 1982 and 2012, he found that employment grew significantly faster in occupations (for example, graphic design) that made more use of computers, as automation sped up one aspect of a job, enabling workers to do the other parts better. The net effect was that more computer-intensive jobs within an industry displaced less computer-intensive ones. Computers thus reallocate rather than displace jobs, requiring workers to learn new skills. This is true of a wide range of occupations, Mr Bessen found, not just in computer-related fields such as software development but also in administrative work, health care and many other areas. Only manufacturing jobs expanded more slowly than the workforce did over the period of study, but that had more to do with business cycles and offshoring to China than with technology, he says.

So far, the same seems to be true of fields where AI is being deployed. For example, the introduction of software capable of analysing large volumes of legal documents might have been expected to reduce the number of legal clerks and paralegals, who act as human search engines during the “discovery” phase of a case; in fact automation has reduced the cost of discovery and increased demand for it. “Judges are more willing to allow discovery now, because it’s cheaper and easier,” says Mr Bessen. The number of legal clerks in America increased by 1.1% a year between 2000 and 2013. Similarly, the automation of shopping through e-commerce, along with more accurate recommendations, encourages people to buy more and has increased overall employment in retailing. In radiology, says Dr Barani, Enlitic’s technology empowers practitioners, making average ones into experts. Rather than putting them out of work, the technology increases capacity, which may help in the developing world, where there is a shortage of specialists.

And while it is easy to see fields in which automation might do away with the need for human labour, it is less obvious where technology might create new jobs. “We can’t predict what jobs will be created in the future, but it’s always been like that,” says Joel Mokyr, an economic historian at Northwestern University. Imagine trying to tell someone a century ago that her great-grandchildren would be video-game designers or cybersecurity specialists, he suggests. “These are jobs that nobody in the past would have predicted.”

Similarly, just as people worry about the potential impact of self-driving vehicles today, a century ago there was much concern about the impact of the switch from horses to cars, notes Mr Autor. Horse-related jobs declined, but entirely new jobs were created in the motel and fast-food industries that arose to serve motorists and truck drivers. As those industries decline, new ones will emerge. Self-driving vehicles will give people more time to consume goods and services, increasing demand elsewhere in the economy; and autonomous vehicles might greatly expand demand for products (such as food) delivered locally.


There will also be some new jobs created in the field of AI itself. Self-driving vehicles may need remote operators to cope with emergencies, or ride-along concierges who knock on doors and manhandle packages. Corporate chatbot and customer-service AIs will need to be built and trained and have dialogue written for them (AI firms are said to be busy hiring poets); they will have to be constantly updated and maintained, just as websites are today. And no matter how advanced artificial intelligence becomes, some jobs are always likely to be better done by humans, notably those involving empathy or social interaction. Doctors, therapists, hairdressers and personal trainers fall into that category. An analysis of the British workforce by Deloitte, a consultancy, highlighted a profound shift over the past two decades towards “caring” jobs: the number of nursing assistants increased by 909%, teaching assistants by 580% and careworkers by 168%.

Focusing only on what is lost misses “a central economic mechanism by which automation affects the demand for labour”, notes Mr Autor: that it raises the value of the tasks that can be done only by humans. Ultimately, he says, those worried that automation will cause mass unemployment are succumbing to what economists call the “lump of labour” fallacy. “This notion that there’s only a finite amount of work to do, and therefore that if you automate some of it there’s less for people to do, is just totally wrong,” he says. Those sounding warnings about technological unemployment “basically ignore the issue of the economic response to automation”, says Mr Bessen.

But couldn’t this time be different? As Mr Ford points out in “Rise of the Robots”, the impact of automation this time around is broader-based: not every industry was affected two centuries ago, but every industry uses computers today. During previous waves of automation, he argues, workers could switch from one kind of routine work to another; but this time many workers will have to switch from routine, unskilled jobs to non-routine, skilled jobs to stay ahead of automation. That makes it more important than ever to help workers acquire new skills quickly. But so far, says Mr Autor, there is “zero evidence” that AI is having a new and significantly different impact on employment. And while everyone worries about AI, says Mr Mokyr, far more labour is being replaced by cheap workers overseas.

Another difference is that whereas the shift from agriculture to industry typically took decades, software can be deployed much more rapidly. Google can invent something like Smart Reply and have millions of people using it just a few months later. Even so, most firms tend to implement new technology more slowly, not least for non-technological reasons. Enlitic and other companies developing AI for use in medicine, for example, must grapple with complex regulations and a fragmented marketplace, particularly in America (which is why many startups are testing their technology elsewhere). It takes time for processes to change, standards to emerge and people to learn new skills. “The distinction between invention and implementation is critical, and too often ignored,” observes Mr Bessen.

What of the worry that new, high-tech industries are less labour-intensive than earlier ones? Mr Frey cites a paper he co-wrote last year showing that only 0.5% of American workers are employed in industries that have emerged since 2000. “Technology might create fewer and fewer jobs, while exposing a growing share of them to automation,” he says. An oft-cited example is that of Instagram, a photo-sharing app. When it was bought by Facebook in 2012 for $1 billion, it had tens of millions of users, but only 13 employees. Kodak, which once employed 145,000 people making photographic products, went into bankruptcy at around the same time. But such comparisons are misleading, says Marc Andreessen. It was smartphones, not Instagram, that undermined Kodak, and far more people are employed by the smartphone industry and its surrounding ecosystems than ever worked for Kodak or the traditional photography industry.

Is this time different?

So who is right: the pessimists (many of them techie types), who say this time is different and machines really will take all the jobs, or the optimists (mostly economists and historians), who insist that in the end technology always creates more jobs than it destroys? The truth probably lies somewhere in between. AI will not cause mass unemployment, but it will speed up the existing trend of computer-related automation, disrupting labour markets just as technological change has done before, and requiring workers to learn new skills more quickly than in the past. Mr Bessen predicts a “difficult transition” rather than a “sharp break with history”. But despite the wide range of views expressed, pretty much everyone agrees on the prescription: that companies and governments will need to make it easier for workers to acquire new skills and switch jobs as needed. That would provide the best defence in the event that the pessimists are right and the impact of artificial intelligence proves to be more rapid and more dramatic than the optimists expect.

TL:DR history, including recent history, suggests that jobs will not be lost overall however, industry needs to take steps to make sure that workers can easily switch to new jobs as and when required.
 

TheOfficeMut

Unconfirmed Member
When I hear these automation stories I always think to myself that the U.S. should really adopt some subsidized education program that changes with demand and encourages people to study fields in desperate need of human workers while offering greater tuition assistance, loan forgiveness and subsidies.

We know some industries are in desperate need of workers. If I was straight out of high school and told that I could go to college for a heavily subsidized cost or free if I studied a specific program that's in need, I'd do it.
 

CSJ

Member
Maybe the staff at my local McDonald's could learn to read my order after the fucking 30th time they get it wrong when it says NO CHEESE on the receipt. Robochef wouldn't make such a cock up.
 

kess

Member
Given the choice between a technocratic liberal and a charismatic fascist, an American will choose the latter every single time. Things are going to get rougher in the absence of social help or mobility. The rich won't tax themselves for the poor's benefit.
 

Craft

Member
I haven't been in a Mcdonald's without these Kiosks for years now, I tend to always use them as they are usually empty.

Those are going to be some gross kiosks

I'd imagine most people will end up just ordering on their phones as you'd be able to just save your favourites and order your food instantly.
 
I'm not saying it will be 1:1, because it won't be, but this will create jobs in terms of installing, maintaining, building, programming, and servicing the self-service stands, and these will, for the most part, be higher paying positions than a McDonalds cashier.
 

Liljagare

Member
I am looking for more apprentice jobs made available again, as entry level positions, since alot of entry level jobs are going out the door.

I am not sure about other nations, but plumbers, electricians, builders, and such areas, we have a huge shortage in Sweden. Back in the day you could apprentice in to get a job, now it's a major diploma. :}

It will be interesting to see how people in future generations land their first job, with little to no available entry level jobs, it will be the "you lack experience" * 100 I think.
 

kevin1025

Banned
I won't be satisfied until there's a tube built into the side of my house that delivers anything I order. KFC bucket? Through the tube. Video game from Amazon? You believe believe in that tube. Two bacon McDoubles and a medium fry? You've got a tube goin'.
 
The miners may not be becoming solar technicians but, at least in the UK, they are doing something because unemployment is very low, assuming they haven't all retired by now.

long article from The Economist on the subject:



TL:DR history, including recent history, suggests that jobs will not be lost overall however, industry needs to take steps to make sure that workers can easily switch to new jobs as and when required.

No offense but link the article with a small snippet. Some of us are on mobile.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Most of the cashiers these days don't give a fuck as is... they don't try to upsell.. they just take up space that and labor.

You can have 3 or 4 kiosks set up that make the customer experience better for most everyone.

That person ends up just being an order runner as opposed to taking orders.
 
Automation is inevitable. Might as well face the dilemma as soon as possible rather than try to stunt it and delay the consequences as for future generations to deal with.
 
They've had these here for a while and they're fantastic, although cashier's are still present. As near as I can tell you can't customize your order on the screen if say, you have allergies (I'm allergic to sesame seeds), or you'd like no cheese on your big Mac, etc. I'm not sure that the the counter staff will be totally eliminated until they can solve this.
 

Lunar15

Member
I feel bad that people have lost their jobs.... but people have been losing their jobs to technology for a millenia.

Do you know how many people it used to take to create spreadsheets for accounting agencies before we had computers?

My stance is that our Government really needs to work on re-training programs and reducing the costs of post-high school education. It won't happen under this administration, but I won't give up hope.
 

strata8

Member
They've had these here for a while and they're fantastic, although cashier's are still present. As near as I can tell you can't customize your order on the screen if say, you have allergies (I'm allergic to sesame seeds), or you'd like no cheese on your big Mac, etc. I'm not sure that the the counter staff will be totally eliminated until they can solve this.

I've been able to remove cheese on the ones over here, though the option is a bit out of the way.
 

KNT-Zero

Member
Automation is done for the convenience of the customer AND the business. If only there was a way to make those jobs more convenient than what the kiosks can do... :/
 

Maxim726X

Member
You mean the people already not making a livable wage as a cashier who are already classified as in poverty?

I don't see how throwing thousands upon thousands of people into those seeking employment is going to improve wages/conditions for the fields that are left for people to fight over.

Yeah, their situation sucked. Now it's likely to get worse.
 

RinsFury

Member
I can't help but feel a sense of impending doom about the future. There will soon be millions unemployed, and I have little faith that basic income will be able to adequately cover that gap (particularly under this administration). It's terrifying, all the more so because it's only a few years away.
 

kess

Member
Sooner or later we will admit this is a looming problem.

Right?

H-hello?

I think half of the liberals on this site are concerned that supporting social programs is going to raise their taxes. That's all it comes down to, really. The logic isn't much different from McDonald's freeing itself from the burden of employees and 401k obligations.
 
I welcome this with open arms. In fact, I use the online ordering stuff as much as possible. Just order online, and pick up when I get to the restaurant.

I do think that we need to do the following:
1. Start subsidizing education.
2. Have meaningful discussions on basic income for long term quality of life. The population of USA has increased significantly over the last several decades, but the human hours worked have remained flat. There is simply less work and less jobs being made on a daily basis. Either we face this head-on, or we deal with more homeless people.
 

yodandy

Member
They were testing these in San Francisco when I was visiting there last year. As a person who regularly modifies their order quite a bit, I loved it! It was fast and easy.
 

slit

Member
If the jobs don't provide livable wages anyway then there is no reason to try to save them.

Instead of making a little money they make none at all? I agree they don't make livable wages but I don't understand how them having no wages at all helps anything.
 

dramatis

Member
People might find this new in 2017, but in Japan they've actually had self-ordering kiosks for quite a while, even in non-franchise stores.

A few months ago, I went to the local Social Security Administration building to get something done for my grandma. There was a security guard next to a kiosk where I tapped in some stuff and got a ticket printed, which had a code that was called out later.

McDonalds isn't really the beginning of this.
 

Kthulhu

Member
I can't help but feel a sense of impending doom about the future. There will soon be millions unemployed, and I have little faith that basic income will be able to adequately cover that gap (particularly under this administration). It's terrifying, all the more so because it's only a few years away.

Automation will most likely be as impactful or more than the industrial revolution. Entire nations will probably be destroyed and created, as well as new systems of government and economics.

I just hope I get to see it all.
 
This is why the world needs basic income. But the USA will watch it burn before looking ahead.

This is only the beginning.

Self driving cars
computer lawyers
computer administrative assistants
Automated Drone delivery

Sure, there will be new jobs. But low skilled jobs ain't coming back.

The worst part about this is that NO big political party is focusing on this. In Europe there are some, but still not enough focus.
 

KorrZ

Member
These kiosks are standard pretty much everywhere now (in Ontario) and I pretty much always use them (unless there is a cashier just standing there with no line cause then I feel bad).

The kiosks are quite frankly more efficient.
 
I'm not saying it will be 1:1, because it won't be, but this will create jobs in terms of installing, maintaining, building, programming, and servicing the self-service stands, and these will, for the most part, be higher paying positions than a McDonalds cashier.
I was thinking the same thing. It does suck that it removes a lot of entry level jobs. Hopefully McDonalds offers some sort of training program to teach some of their current employees to be the ones who operate those machines.
 

Jezan

Member
Some people here...

It has been like that since machines were invented. How do you think factories work?

That's a problem no one wants to see, of course machines need maintenance and rere will be people to fix them but in the end machines take lots of jobs.

I'm an engineer specializing in automation and we (colleagues and friends from university) have been harassed and sent death threats by people that work at factories when we install a new machine, because people think they will lose their jobs (most of the time they don't, they are just placed in a different department) , it doesn't happen everywhere but mostly on plants in remote areas.
 
"But but but fast food work is only supposed to be temporary and not a career. Fox News told me flipping burgers is the only job in the world with an age limit, so i will gladly cheer as their rights as workers are trampled."
 
This is only the beginning.

Self driving cars
computer lawyers
computer administrative assistants
Automated Drone delivery

Sure, there will be new jobs. But low skilled jobs ain't coming back.

The worst part about this is that NO big political party is focusing on this. In Europe there are some, but still not enough focus.

I don't really see what the remedy is if it isn't forcing employers to employ unneeded employees. That has worked in certain circumstances (the great depression for example) but it's not something that can underpin an economy for perpetuity. How would that work in practice? What would it do to competitiveness?
 

Nester99

Member
"But but but fast food work is only supposed to be temporary and not a career. Fox News told me flipping burgers is the only job in the world with an age limit, so i will gladly cheer as their rights as workers are trampled."


What rights are you talking about exactly?
 
Automation will most likely be as impactful or more than the industrial revolution. Entire nations will probably be destroyed and created, as well as new systems of government and economics.

I just hope I get to see it all.

In the last industrial revolution, those nations that harnessed automation first reaped the benefits for centuries. For instance, Spain was the most powerful nation on earth and it refused to industrialise. A hundred years later and it was a backwater (relatively speaking).
 
Instead of making a little money they make none at all? I agree they don't make livable wages but I don't understand how them having no wages at all helps anything.

Underpaid workers in poverty is a net loss for society. Trying to save those jobs would also hold back innovations and hurt international competiveness.

If automation truly leads to offsetting millions of workers then render human workforce as resource obsolete then we will need to change our economy anyway.
 
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