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Schreier: "PlayStation’s Astro Bot Is a Model for the Video-Game Industry"

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Here's an excerpt from the relevant Bloomberg newsletter. I've bolded some key bits:

"While Concord feels symbolic of the industry’s woes, Astro Bot feels like a model for a more sustainable future. It was developed by a team of 60 people in three years, a stark contrast to the six-year productions staffed by thousands of employees that have become common in recent times. Rather than chasing endless gameplay, Astro Bot is delightfully compact and can be completed in around a dozen hours — a godsend for busy parents or people with massive gaming backlogs.

In an interview this week, Nicolas Doucet, director of Astro Bot, told me that one of the secrets to the game’s success was his team’s restraint when it came to scope.

Having something that’s 12 to 15 hours of condensed fun, where there wasn’t five minutes in which you felt it was long or lacking, is much more valuable than 40 hours when you have some moments that you feel like skipping,” Doucet said. “Being able to be OK with that, goes in some way to keeping things under control.”

Doucet, a French game developer who started his career at Lego A/S before moving to Japan for a job at PlayStation, helped start Sony’s Team Asobi studio, the maker of Astro Bot, in 2012. The name, he said, comes from the Japanese word for ‘play,’ because “we wanted to remind ourselves always of the fundamentals of play.”

Team Asobi started off with a series of experimental, augmented-reality and virtual-reality games including 2018’s Astro Bot Rescue Mission, a PlayStation VR title that introduced the eponymous robot and was critically acclaimed for its innovative controls. Afterward, Doucet and his team volunteered to develop Astro’s Playroom, a tie-in game for the PlayStation 5. Although it was more a tech demo than a proper game, fans loved the way it made use of the controller’s unique haptic feedback.

In 2021, buoyed by the positive reaction to their previous titles, the team began slowly expanding and building prototypes for a full-fledged game. Shaping the design of Astro Bot early, Doucet said, was another key to its success — most of the game that you see today has existed for years.

“If you do that early on, you get rid of the most difficult task, which is to bring the fun,” he said. “It goes a long way towards making a smoother production later on.”

Throughout the process, the team behind Astro Bot would get together every two weeks to review their progress and play the game — an act that might seem obvious but is surprisingly uncommon during video-game productions.

“When you have a really big team, sometimes you forget why you’re doing what you’re doing,” Doucet said. “For three years, if your job is to do backgrounds, you’re not sure where those trees are going to go. It can lead to unnecessary work. To be able to always put it in context — why am I doing what I’m doing — is really needed.”

Keeping the Astro Bot team at 60 people rather than swelling into the hundreds resulted in myriad benefits, such as offering all of Team Asobi creative agency and input. At the end of each two-week milestone, everyone on the team was tasked with picking one aspect of the game they liked and one that they wanted to improve — a process that made everyone feel like they were able to contribute.

Astro Bot is brimming with creative ideas and surprises, such as a forest full of singing trees and a mouse-themed level that you can explore by shrinking the robotic protagonist to miniature size and getting an intimate look at mouse holes and apple cores. This creativity was the result of everyone on the team sharing ideas — not just the designers.

“I’m not saying it’s the ultimate democratic team, but I think there’s quite a bit of that. And that contributes to keeping motivation up,” Doucet said. “Ideas come from everywhere on the team. It’s not like game designers have a monopoly of good ideas. It could be audio, visual, technical people. You want to mix it up.”

Combined with collegial chemistry — Doucet told me that a large chunk of his team has been together for a decade — it all adds up to a breakout hit. Astro Bot may not drive billions of dollars in revenue, but because it was only developed by 60 people, its threshold for profitability is relatively low.

In other words, it’s not just a brilliant game. It’s a model for a more sustainable industry, one in which publishers are content with smaller, more cheaply developed games over live-service behemoths that nobody wants to play."

It's just crazy that these obvious-sounding steps are so uncommon in the industry. Imagine a Sony or Microsoft that aimed to build multiple smaller teams like this (I think Nintendo already does). We could have output more like the PS2 days than the industry's current parlous state.
 
Fully agree, another thing about longer games is the replayability issue.

So many of them feel like such a slog the idea of replaying them is really off putting.

Absolutely. And the thing is, bloating isn't hard. It's actually hard to be focused and make a short game still feel like a big adventure. Many masterpieces and classics I still play today can be beat in less than two afternoons, but don't actually feel short. Symphony of the Night, Link to the Past, Super Metroid, Resident Evil 2, Super Castlevania 4, Streets of Rage 2, etc. When it comes to RPGs, I'll never have the time to replay something like Dragon Quest 11 ever again. Thankfully there's Bloodborne and Chrono Trigger at 20 hours which is still an amount of time worth investing into a replay of such good classics. And I'm never gonna touch soulless bloated trash like Assassin's Creed to begin with. Back in the day I would have tried a 7/10 game with a few interesting ideas, but not anymore with 50 hour open worlds.

And the birdbrains whining about the price... nothing drops quicker than videogame prices. So just wait two fucking months if you're that appalled by paying 70 bucks for a non-bloated campaign. I don't even remember what I paid for Resident Evil 2 back in the day and it absolutely doesn't matter when I go back to it once again.
 
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Lambogenie

Member
Aren't some indies and chinese teams like this already?

But I do agree that we don't need all these gargantuan games.
 

NeoIkaruGAF

Gold Member
Schreier hasn't heard of Nintendo, I see.
Yeah, and I’d wager that if the 60 people in that team were all white, he’d think twice before writing such a piece.
Jason is a pro at riding the latest success story and shooting the easiest targets of the week, I’ll give him that.

There’s nothing really wrong in the article. Games made by hundreds of people across several teams who don’t necessarily communicate effectively with one another is nothing new. But you try and coordinate all the people behind an Assassin’s Creed game. I don’t envy the bottom-rung guy at Ubi who just has to compile a game’s credits, that shit goes on for literally half an hour or more, every time.

I’m sure most people in the industry know these things perfectly well. But the scope of the game has blown up so much that it simply cannot be shrunk again, ever. After all, it’s no secret that most people buy only a few games, and don’t even finish those few. This shows that for the average gamer, game size and duration is not a major issue. If new games all cost the same, most people will go for the ones that generate the most buzz, and those are often the ones made by the biggest teams with the biggest budgets. So long as those games sell millions, no publisher in their right mind would scale back on the size and content of their games.
 

NeoIkaruGAF

Gold Member
"a godsend for busy parents or people with massive gaming backlogs."

That's me. Finally some good journalism from this people.
Um, that point really makes no sense, mate.

The solution to your massive backlog isn’t to buy new, shorter games. It’s to play the games that you bought and never even booted up. The former is part of the reason you have a backlog to begin with.
 

Shake Your Rump

Gold Member
How many Astro Bot threads do we need?
dwD1uj.gif
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
People are making a TON of assumptions.

Wukong and Helldiver 2 are probably the two best-selling games of the year. Very different models.

Astro Bot while critically acclaimed is still struggling to dislodge CF25, Madden, CoD, and Wukong for top-selling charts in various regions. Not to mention Warhammer and Star Wars Outlaws.

The ability to replicate what they've done with Astro Bot is also VERY difficult.

I do think games can start getting shorter again. 40-50 hour games can be a slog.
 
Um, that point really makes no sense, mate.

The solution to your massive backlog isn’t to buy new, shorter games. It’s to play the games that you bought and never even booted up. The former is part of the reason you have a backlog to begin with.
Alternatively: The best way to not have a backlog is to only buy a game you are going to start playing right away, and commit to finishing it before moving on to the next one.

Most people would find this dramatically cuts down on their spending every year too and then they wouldn't need to whine about a $70 game only having say 15 hours of gameplay instead of 150. The idea of "time = money's worth" in gaming is fucking retarded, nobody measures how long a movie is and uses that to determine if it's worth paying money to see or not.
 

Shake Your Rump

Gold Member
"a godsend for busy parents or people with massive gaming backlogs."

That's me. Finally some good journalism from this people.
This doesn't make much sense. Telling someone who already has many unplayed games that a solution is to buy another game?

Every console has suspend and resume. I just played through the entirety of Pokémon Let's Go over the span of weeks without ever closing the game.

It took me 140+ hours to complete Persona 5 over the span of months, despite it being the only game I played at the time. You can play any game, regardless of how little time you have, if you are actually interested in playing the game, as opposed to just checking it off a list.

This, it’s shocking that this is something people don’t get. Being a parent means that jRPG is played for 3 months, f that.
A game is either worth your time playing, or it isn't. How long it takes to "complete" is irrelevant if your goal is to play the game.

Does any other hobby obsess with how many items they complete? Are there quilters out there cranking out a "backlog" of quilts, just to say they made X number of quilts? People knitting drink coasters because a hat... "f that". Do woodworkers lament how long it takes to make a bookcase versus a napkin holder?
 
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Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
The ability to replicate what they've done with Astro Bot is also VERY difficult.
Everything in the game industry is difficult. Making an AAA game, making a tiny indie. Making a live service multiplayer game, making a good single-player game. Making a sequel, making an original IP. There's nothing safe.

But this approach might be the closest thing. You start with moderate investments and build up the team over time if it's reasonably successful. You let them build on existing work, where possible. You keep turnover low, retain veterans, and build institutional knowledge. You narrow scope initially and widen where it makes sense. You have a stable of these development teams so that you're not overly dependent on any one of them.

I dunno. I keep seeing people say game developers and publishers and platform holders all know this (and the other stuff Doucet cited), but I haven't seen the evidence that they do.
 

Hudo

Member
Yeah, and I’d wager that if the 60 people in that team were all white, he’d think twice before writing such a piece.
Jason is a pro at riding the latest success story and shooting the easiest targets of the week, I’ll give him that.

There’s nothing really wrong in the article. Games made by hundreds of people across several teams who don’t necessarily communicate effectively with one another is nothing new. But you try and coordinate all the people behind an Assassin’s Creed game. I don’t envy the bottom-rung guy at Ubi who just has to compile a game’s credits, that shit goes on for literally half an hour or more, every time.

I’m sure most people in the industry know these things perfectly well. But the scope of the game has blown up so much that it simply cannot be shrunk again, ever. After all, it’s no secret that most people buy only a few games, and don’t even finish those few. This shows that for the average gamer, game size and duration is not a major issue. If new games all cost the same, most people will go for the ones that generate the most buzz, and those are often the ones made by the biggest teams with the biggest budgets. So long as those games sell millions, no publisher in their right mind would scale back on the size and content of their games.
I am just so fucking tired of people giving this human scum any acknowledgement. Schreier is a hypocrite and an asshole. Whenever there's industry drama to exploit for his badly written books or blog posts, he's there. Claims that he wants to uncover shitty practices to better the industry for everyone but gets incredibly salty when stuff is uncovered without him (like the Blizzard shit). The guy is in it for himself only and somehow manages to gaslight people into thinking that he is a serious journalist (which he isn't by his own admission). And that he cares about the industry and video games (which he doesn't. He only cares about his agenda getting out and getting paid for it).

Yet every time this dude farts, threads everywhere (not only on GAF) appear about it. I bet he also makes some good points in this blog posts, but that's like saying that the last couple of Star Wars movies are good because there are one or two scenes that a dope.
And no, I don't want to ban discussion about his bullshit. That would be the wrong way to deal with it (or anything else, for that matter). It's just that he doesn't deserve the pedestal many people put him on.
 
I'm so sick of when a game does well so many people who like it scurry over each other to proclaim THAT'S how the rest of games should go rather than each company finding their own lane that works best for them.

Astrobot, Breath of the Wild, Baldur's Gate 3, Hollow Knight, GTA, etc are all wildly different games thank the gods, and we need that diversity in the industry.
 

Tams

Gold Member
I'm tired of people who play countless amount of games for work begging for shorter games. It's like a food critic telling people they love big mac because it's simple and to the point.

12 hours is on the limit, that's all I'll say.

I'm not begging for shorter games, but I do want games that are value my time. And shorter games are more likely to fulfill that as they need to fit more into a shorter playtime frame.

You can fuck your fetch quests that are requirements/highly beneficial to reach the end of the game.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
No shit it's taken less Time and people to develop astrobot than CP2077 or Star wars outlaws. Not everybody wants to play simple platformers though..
Larian and Owlcat used comparable models for their earlier games (length aside). This isn't just for simple platformers.
 
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It's just crazy that these obvious-sounding steps are so uncommon in the industry. Imagine a Sony or Microsoft that aimed to build multiple smaller teams like this (I think Nintendo already does). We could have output more like the PS2 days than the industry's current parlous state.
Ratchet, to give an example of another Sony's game, or Hi Fi Rush were like this weren't these? and their sales were mediocre.

And Astro Bot will do fine numbers, but it'll get outsold by Warhammer, which is a GaaS by the way.

Larian and Owlcat used comparable models for their earlier games (length aside). This isn't just for simple platformers.

Hmm no, both Divinity games were no different from Baldurs Gate 3, both were massive considering the size of the studio by the time they were made.
 
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Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
A game fails: "Sony needs to take a long hard look at itself"
A game succeeds a mere week later: "Sony knows how to make videogames. Incredible achievement"


People get money to write this.
Different games by different development teams with different approaches under the same corporate umbrella can in fact have different outcomes and lessons.
 

The Cockatrice

Gold Member
All great games are models for the industry. Wow, who fucking knew. Some of you are so fucking hilarious for eating this shit up that I genuinely think you guys were born yesterday and never played other good games before especially Jason.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Does anyone have any stats for this game's development?

How much did it cost?
How many people were involved?
How long did it take?
In my OP--60 people over three years. You can probably come up with a plausible cost based on that!
 

farmerboy

Member
I'm tired of people who play countless amount of games for work begging for shorter games. It's like a food critic telling people they love big mac because it's simple and to the point.

12 hours is on the limit, that's all I'll say.

Journey was like a 4hr playthrough and one of my all time greats. Length of a game is not the top priority.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
I am not even sure it is possible for a company in the US, like EA or Sony, to make a game with a staff of sixty people anymore, due to all the initiatives and policies and laws in place. Like, people have been talking about 150 people who worked at Firewalk, but in reality it was more like 1000+ who actually worked on the game. Like, just to use a simple example everyone has been talking about, if you "need" to hire diversity consultant, they are not free. They are actually really, really, really expensive. So if the managers at the company decide you have to hire them, you're not making a game with sixty people over three years, and they get in and start throwing out work and reworking things.

This is, essentially, managerialism which has hit the game industry like a comet in the past 10 years or so. You end up with huge bureaucracies designed to manage the bureaucracy. It's hard to go back.
 
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RoboFu

One of the green rats
Yeah, smaller teams and lower budgets does not mean bad games. Nintendo has been doing that forever as well.

I personally love the Uber polished clean well running look of Astro bot more than some bloated blurry non stable game like outlaws.
 
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Porcile

Member
Easier to make this kind of game in Japan when you you can pay people half the salary compared to the rest of the world and people will work hard anyway simply because it's their passion or they are workaholics or they have a dream to live in Japan.
 
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