Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
I know
Last edited:
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Sega’s 1996 Saturn lineup is one of the greatest of all time
- Thread starter RetroGamingUK
- Start date
RetroGamingUK
Member
The fact that since late 95 (or early 96 in Europe) Virtua Fighter 2 was the most impressive 3D fighter for 3 years is pretty astonishing.
Yes, Sould Blade did things VF2 didn’t like lighting and 3D elements in backgrounds, it paid for them with a lower resolution and frame rate.
It took until Tekken 3 for PlayStation to catch up (and some might respectfully say, surpass it).
Of course they use very different techniques to achieve largely the same look.
VF2 pours all of VDP1 into rendering 2 fighters, while VDP2 is responsible for the Mode 7 floors and parallax backgrounds.
Tekken 3 does EVERYTHING through polygons, even the flat walls surrounding the fighters are indeed made of polygons.
The addition of lighting gives Tekken 3 the slight edge.
But again, it took 3 years!
Yes, Sould Blade did things VF2 didn’t like lighting and 3D elements in backgrounds, it paid for them with a lower resolution and frame rate.
It took until Tekken 3 for PlayStation to catch up (and some might respectfully say, surpass it).
Of course they use very different techniques to achieve largely the same look.
VF2 pours all of VDP1 into rendering 2 fighters, while VDP2 is responsible for the Mode 7 floors and parallax backgrounds.
Tekken 3 does EVERYTHING through polygons, even the flat walls surrounding the fighters are indeed made of polygons.
The addition of lighting gives Tekken 3 the slight edge.
But again, it took 3 years!
Last edited:
cireza
Member
Tekken 3 is still lower res though as well as its models.
The Last Ninja
Member
I would take Radiant Silvergun over this entire list.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Oddly enough being a big Saturn fan I never gave 2 shits about the Japanese exclusives… apart from Dead or Alive 2
Last edited:
RetroGamingUK
Member
Sega Rally Championship is another one you could argue it took PlayStation a long time to catch up with and overtake
Like Virtua Fighter 2, the cars and tracks are drawn in 3D with VDP1 and the 2D background uses VDP2.
Opposite of VF2, the background this time is in 240 while the background is in 480
Graphically it would take PlayStation until early 97 to catch up and overtake it graphically (Rage Racer and Porsche Challenge) and arguably late 97 to overtake with Gran Turismo.
Like Virtua Fighter 2, the cars and tracks are drawn in 3D with VDP1 and the 2D background uses VDP2.
Opposite of VF2, the background this time is in 240 while the background is in 480
Graphically it would take PlayStation until early 97 to catch up and overtake it graphically (Rage Racer and Porsche Challenge) and arguably late 97 to overtake with Gran Turismo.
Last edited:
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
the graphics are just secondary details, Tekken 2 was already a better and more fun game than VF2, just as Crash is more fun than any 3D platform game on the Sega Saturn, the racing games on the Sega Saturn are average, only the RPGs and 2D games stand out in terms of quality.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Slightly, and always worth remembering that only the fighters in VF2 are rendered in 480, the rest is 240
nkarafo
Member
You still ignore the 1+ year head start the Saturn had. Before the N64 was even released, the Saturn already had it's "holy trinity" of games made by their new tools. Mario 64 was a launch title for N64 and not even it's most impressive title, yet still blows everything the Saturn ever had in terms of free roaming 3D environments. The Sonic Jam hub world is the best looking 3D world the Saturn ever had but that only has better textures. Mario 64 still has bigger areas, more detail, complexity, and verticality.
All my posts are me responding to the offtopic posts. I didn't start it.
Other posters, including you, continue to make comparisons with either the N64 and PS1 and how this Saturn game looks better, etc.
At leas it's not at the same level as "let's compare the Dreamcast with the N64 instead, because the Saturn can't keep up" goal post moving.
Tekken 3 has much better lighting though.
RickMasters
Member
Probably my fave console of all time inspite of all its flaws. It was the perfect console for the type of gamer I was back then. As much as I lipped consoles it was really all about the arcades for me then.
I remember I bought mine at launch with VF and panzer dragoon. Daytona was a let down but when your actually playing it it’s fun. Just packed the visual punch. Being able to play VF1 at home for the first time…… man….. I wouldn’t turn on my snes or megadrive after that….. and panzer dragoon was a visual feat at the time, never seen nothing like that on a home console.
Though I can’t lie when I played Ridge racer at home for the first time PS1 also earned its place in my heart but I digress…
That year of 96 was amazing. I remember seeing the first pics of VF2 and sega rally in the pages of sega Saturn magazine and edge and feeling a lot more confident about Saturns ability to do descent 3D games especially the arcade ports. Panzer zwei was every bit t even better than the first game. And I think we got exhumed that year? That was an FPS that really showed off what the hardware can do in dedicated hands. Same team went on to make respectable ports of duke nukem and quake for the Saturn. If I remember correctly we also got guardian heroes that year. That game is awesome. I still jump on that game via the x360 version on BC with series Xthese days. It’s still a fanstastic beat em up.
VF2 was insane, it was so damn smooth too! And it looked crisp as fuck!. Sega rally was special. Virtua cop was even better with two light guns ( which I had!)
And I can’t forget xmen: cota and marvel super heroes showing early on that the Saturn was THE machine for all the best ports of capcom and SNK fighting games. Around that time I had my Saturn chipped to play Japanese games and fitted with. 60hz switch. I was playing king of fighters 95 and 96 with the ram cart ( even double dipped and bought the U.K. version, when that was released) dark stalkers on a Saturn was another perfect port. That console was a treasure trove for fighting games.
97/ 98 was even better….radiant silver gun, capcom at their peak, with arcade perfect port of all their beat em ups. Panzer dragoon saga.
They say the brightest stars dont burn long. That was the Saturn and that was sega at the time. Sega in the 90s was cutting edge 3D in the arcades. They just made bad hardware choices in the home console market. Who knows how much better the Saturn would have been had they opted to bring a scaled down version Lockheed martins 3d tech home ( they offered it to sega in the form of their R3D pro 100 chip but sega japan chose not too, rather foolishly) in the Saturn in combination with those glorious VDP1 and 2 chips and a single fast CPU instead of making things complicated by utilising two CPUs…… Saturn could have been a very different beast as far as 3D games but all the same those talented programmers at sega worked magic.
Saturn for all its flaws and quirks was something special, roaming was was a joy, and I personally never missed out on anything because I also had a PS1 and my younger brother opted for an N64. We had all three in my household, so we got all the good games on all the formats at the time. But the Saturn was the console I lived more than the other two. As special as they were. I mean…. Being a teenage gamer in the 90s and witnessing and experience the dawn of 3D gaming, you never forget moving Mario around in 3D like THAT for the first time….. wipeout la blend of art style and graphics and sound…… playing GT1 or Colin McRae 1 and suddenly realising that you have to use the brakes a lot more in driving games…. And this thing called car physics suddenly being a thing for games …..or watching the CGI cutscenes and knowing one day games are gonna look just like that. Endless 4 player matches on goldeneye, F zero and Mario kart, with your, siblings, cousins friends on them weekends between school days.
There was so much to live about that era of gaming and the Saturn was king for me. What’s more fun than beating the shit out of your friends on the best fighting games during the 90s? Probably only 8 player Daytona at sega world or the trocadaro in the west end…… good times.
Gaming will never be that special again. It’s still fun, but it’s a different era and I guess we all old now
I remember I bought mine at launch with VF and panzer dragoon. Daytona was a let down but when your actually playing it it’s fun. Just packed the visual punch. Being able to play VF1 at home for the first time…… man….. I wouldn’t turn on my snes or megadrive after that….. and panzer dragoon was a visual feat at the time, never seen nothing like that on a home console.
Though I can’t lie when I played Ridge racer at home for the first time PS1 also earned its place in my heart but I digress…
That year of 96 was amazing. I remember seeing the first pics of VF2 and sega rally in the pages of sega Saturn magazine and edge and feeling a lot more confident about Saturns ability to do descent 3D games especially the arcade ports. Panzer zwei was every bit t even better than the first game. And I think we got exhumed that year? That was an FPS that really showed off what the hardware can do in dedicated hands. Same team went on to make respectable ports of duke nukem and quake for the Saturn. If I remember correctly we also got guardian heroes that year. That game is awesome. I still jump on that game via the x360 version on BC with series Xthese days. It’s still a fanstastic beat em up.
VF2 was insane, it was so damn smooth too! And it looked crisp as fuck!. Sega rally was special. Virtua cop was even better with two light guns ( which I had!)
And I can’t forget xmen: cota and marvel super heroes showing early on that the Saturn was THE machine for all the best ports of capcom and SNK fighting games. Around that time I had my Saturn chipped to play Japanese games and fitted with. 60hz switch. I was playing king of fighters 95 and 96 with the ram cart ( even double dipped and bought the U.K. version, when that was released) dark stalkers on a Saturn was another perfect port. That console was a treasure trove for fighting games.
97/ 98 was even better….radiant silver gun, capcom at their peak, with arcade perfect port of all their beat em ups. Panzer dragoon saga.
They say the brightest stars dont burn long. That was the Saturn and that was sega at the time. Sega in the 90s was cutting edge 3D in the arcades. They just made bad hardware choices in the home console market. Who knows how much better the Saturn would have been had they opted to bring a scaled down version Lockheed martins 3d tech home ( they offered it to sega in the form of their R3D pro 100 chip but sega japan chose not too, rather foolishly) in the Saturn in combination with those glorious VDP1 and 2 chips and a single fast CPU instead of making things complicated by utilising two CPUs…… Saturn could have been a very different beast as far as 3D games but all the same those talented programmers at sega worked magic.
Saturn for all its flaws and quirks was something special, roaming was was a joy, and I personally never missed out on anything because I also had a PS1 and my younger brother opted for an N64. We had all three in my household, so we got all the good games on all the formats at the time. But the Saturn was the console I lived more than the other two. As special as they were. I mean…. Being a teenage gamer in the 90s and witnessing and experience the dawn of 3D gaming, you never forget moving Mario around in 3D like THAT for the first time….. wipeout la blend of art style and graphics and sound…… playing GT1 or Colin McRae 1 and suddenly realising that you have to use the brakes a lot more in driving games…. And this thing called car physics suddenly being a thing for games …..or watching the CGI cutscenes and knowing one day games are gonna look just like that. Endless 4 player matches on goldeneye, F zero and Mario kart, with your, siblings, cousins friends on them weekends between school days.
There was so much to live about that era of gaming and the Saturn was king for me. What’s more fun than beating the shit out of your friends on the best fighting games during the 90s? Probably only 8 player Daytona at sega world or the trocadaro in the west end…… good times.
Gaming will never be that special again. It’s still fun, but it’s a different era and I guess we all old now
LordBlodgett
Member
Why are you all of a sudden comparing the entire N64 catalog to Sega Saturn games?
This entire thread has been derailed by a bunch of Nintendo graphics fanboys......
I have never once thought of best lineup of games in terms of graphics only, that is barely a small part of what makes games fun
PrefectAboro
Member
I was going through a "top sega saturn soundtracks/ost" on Youtube recently and DAMN there are so many dope songs! It made me wanna play saturn games.
How is emulation these days? Should I go SSF or Mednafen core through retroarch? I tried configuring my 8Bitdo M30 controller through retroarch but it was such a pain in the ass I gave up!
How is emulation these days? Should I go SSF or Mednafen core through retroarch? I tried configuring my 8Bitdo M30 controller through retroarch but it was such a pain in the ass I gave up!
nkarafo
Member
Why are you quoting me? Why not the poster i responded to? Did you even read the posts that lead to this or you just randomly picked my post without any context?
RickMasters
Member
Yeah the Saturn import games were amazing. Im an idiot for selling off mines.
RickMasters
Member
Darius, thunder force V, guardian heroes, VF2, sega rally, Daytona USA and capcoms rearranged street fighter alpha 2 soundtracks stick out for me
Syphon Filter
Member
That is mediocre to be honest
LordBlodgett
Member
I did not randomly pick you. This post is the peak of how this thread has totally gone off topic. It has literally nothing to do with best gaming lineup of a console, or even the argument that Saturn's 1996 lineup was one of the best ever. It's true I could probably quote 1/3 of all the posts in this thread for derailing, but at least half of those would be your N64/Saturn graphic warring.
cireza
Member
Who cares ? What matters in when the genre became a trend. Not when the Saturn was released.
I can definitely agree that N64 textures are ugly indeed. Mario 64 is more complex ? That's amazing ! It is not as if I was trying to say the opposite... I don't even know why you are moving on this topic anyway. Did anyone challenge the fact that N64 had better platformers than Saturn ? No. And nobody gives a shit about this in this topic on top of it !
That's because your argument went to dumb levels of "let's compare games released on a console to another console that was not getting games anymore".
No shit. Then again, Tekken 3 is not a 1995 game.
Last edited:
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
the Saturn would be a much better console without Sega games, everything good on the Saturn comes from third-party developers as you can see.
It was only when these developers died, were arrested, or fired that Sega could breathe again.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Saturn couldn't even display a resolution as low as most Playstation games. In hind that was probably one of the issues. lol
But yeah like I said. we did see a few games at the end of the saturn's life start to get some lighting and shading and we all seen the shenmue demo. I will just always wonder what a fully matured saturn development could have been like.
RickMasters
Member
They same could be said of arcade ports on any console of that era….
Ridge racer on PS can never match the visuals of its arcade counterpart let alone rave racer running on system 22, same can be said for time crisis a cyber sled ports. Dead or alive on PS1 looks worse than Saturn Dead or alive 1.
And don’t get me started on N64 arcade ports. Cruising USA is a less visually demanding game than Daytona USA or sega rally or even ridge racer for that matter and somehow the N64 port of that games and San Francisco rush and even other. I’d way arcade like mace the dark ages all look worse than any of the saturns 3D fighters and all run at half the frame are if something like VF2, last bronx or fighters mega mix or fighting vipers. Even KIller instinct gold was a downgrade from arcade killer instinct
All three consoles were impressive in their own way and even their weaknesses added a certain character and charm to their visuals….. they all had a….. look….. I remember all three fondly even their flaws…. n64 games were often foggy with 20FPS frame rates but often looked the cleanest….. PS1 would fold its polygons, but did great transparencies and effects …. Saturn worked with quads instead of triangles which would lead to all sorts of complications but the way it modelled and lit objects was I uniquely sega Saturn… and it’s 2D games have aged better than most of the 3D games of that era….. devs sort of played to the strengths and weaknesses of each. And we got three unique console for that. That’s why it will always be my fave era, even if 3D gaming had not matured in Terms of design, and complexity.
RickMasters
Member
Virtua cop was a blast but yeah decathlete was never my thing personally
s_mirage
Member
Use both. Mednafen is generally better, but there a few games (NBA Jam: TE, for example) that have problems with it. It's kinda frustrating because Mednafen is close to perfect, but there are a few issues that have been around for years that haven't been fixed, and some are present in several games.
nkarafo
Member
What issues do you have with NBA JAM: TE on Mednafen Saturn? I just tested it and i saw no issues other than a very mild flickering in the team select screen.
Crayon
Member
Damn if only the ai in vf2 wasn't so shit.
Anyway. All this N64 talk is making me want to plug one in. My friends have been asking me to do a retro stream for a minute and I even bought a capture card a few years ago. I think it would be funny to play san francisco rush and try to get all those keys like when I was a kid. Funny because I would have far less patience for that shit now lol.
Anyway. All this N64 talk is making me want to plug one in. My friends have been asking me to do a retro stream for a minute and I even bought a capture card a few years ago. I think it would be funny to play san francisco rush and try to get all those keys like when I was a kid. Funny because I would have far less patience for that shit now lol.
s_mirage
Member
You said it. The text when it shows all the players in the attract mode flickers like crazy. It's minor, but it's an obvious flaw and it bugs me. It works fine in SSF.
The bug that multiple games have is a graphic alignment issue. It's barely noticeable in some games, but it can be really obvious in others (Street Fighter The Movie, for example).
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Never noticed issues in later SSF versions other than sprite disappearing bugs in some SNK fighting games (which I emulate the arcade versions of anyway), if it's not fixed yet. I'm sure that like any emulator there are others with more minor or major issues but none I've tried. I don't think Mednafen is any better, they seem on par to me, i.e. most games work excellently or as good as any other popular emu/system as some few don't, yet. I only migrated to Mednafen some time ago because of the RetroArch core (Beetle) since I use that for most things up to Dreamcast nowadays and only go stand alone for stuff like PS2/Wii and later. But it's also a bit annoying because seemingly nobody cares to fully update the Saturn core nowadays, crucially the Grandia FMV just won't run proper/full speed (which was fixed on stand alone), souring me so much I just don't play it, yet...
Last edited:
lachesis
Member
No Sakura Wars (September 1996) love?
One of my favorite games on Saturn - specifically for that time period of 1996. It added additional depth of multi-media entertainment (live action musical, anime) on top of the game itself especially in Japan.
But other than that - Saturn's 1996 offering was quite something. From that poll - I did choose Panzer Dragoon Zwei. VF2 and Sega Rally were all good - but as for a console exclusive - Panzer Dragoon Zwei was something else. 3D on Saturn rarely impressed me (well 3D in general in 1996, on any consoles) - but Panzer Dragoon Zwei really blew me away + they added so much to the game over original.
One of my favorite games on Saturn - specifically for that time period of 1996. It added additional depth of multi-media entertainment (live action musical, anime) on top of the game itself especially in Japan.
But other than that - Saturn's 1996 offering was quite something. From that poll - I did choose Panzer Dragoon Zwei. VF2 and Sega Rally were all good - but as for a console exclusive - Panzer Dragoon Zwei was something else. 3D on Saturn rarely impressed me (well 3D in general in 1996, on any consoles) - but Panzer Dragoon Zwei really blew me away + they added so much to the game over original.
Last edited:
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Even though the fighter polycounts are so downgraded on Saturn compared to the arcade game (duh, much more powerful than anything out at the time, more powerful than the Namco arcade boards that still needed downgrades for PS too) I feel the lighting changes (or removal for some) make their polygonal nature and separated limbs (vs Tekken 3's or DOA's single mesh style as became the norm) way less pronounced so they generally look smoother, if less detailed, than the arcade models (the polygon edges also are way more apparent in Tekken 3 to me). Just a preference I guess
Last edited:
RetroGamingUK
Member
Still shit
Even though the fighter polycounts are so downgraded on Saturn compared to the arcade game (duh, much more powerful than anything out at the time, more powerful than the Namco arcade boards that still needed downgrades for PS too) I feel the lighting changes (or removal for some) make their polygonal nature and separated limbs (vs Tekken 3's or DOA's single mesh style as became the norm) way less pronounced so they generally look smoother, if less detailed, than the arcade models (the polygon edges also are way more apparent in Tekken 3 to me). Just a preference I guess
Tekken 3’s lighting is responsible for visible polygon edges, it’s less pronounced than Tekken 2 and Virtua Fighter 1 though.
Virtua Fighter 2 has no such lighting, which is another reason why it looks so different to VF1 (or VF2 arcade for that matter).
In fact I struggle to think of many Saturn games that featured lighting (Burning Rangers, Fighting Vipers and Sonic R spring to mind) where as PlayStation had plenty across all genres.
Last edited:
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I guess famous examples are Quake, Powerslave, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Shining Force 3, Sonic R and BR you mentioned or parts of NiGHTS, but titles like Gungriffon and Soviet Strike also had some, likely done differently to how we think of lighting now, with fired shots, explosions and other effects changing the color of surfaces. The later fighters also (suffering in resolution in comparison to VF2). That's not to say games that didn't show fully dynamic lighting and other pronounced effects were always fullbright like VF2 and other arcade stuff, plenty achieved moody environments & shadows.
Crappy games like D-Xhird (Toshinden spin off, lol) also managed to have lighting effects so it can't have been that hard. Some games with notable lighting effects are listed here (I didn't go through the whole thing, just now dug it up but cba).
Last edited:
nkarafo
Member
Fighting Vipers had lighting, which is why i prefer it, visually, over VF2. Fighters Megamix too IIRC.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Good call with NiGHTS, yes the characters reflect the coloured idea swirling around them, and lighting is clearly visible in boss stages
As for racing games exhibiting lighting, the only ones I can think of is GT24 and Virtual Kyoto 2 (1998 Japanese exclusives) where as I think pretty much ever PS1 racer after 1996’s Formula 1 had car lighting
Last edited:
DeVeAn
Member
What? I own mostly SEGA titles on Saturn and had a blast. Strange.
cireza
Member
Actually there are many and you cited some.
Fighting Vipers and Megamix have advanced lighting cast over textures, and properly projected shadows.
Zero Divide is another extremely well made fighter with dynamic lighting.
All three Lobotomy FPS have advanced lighting cast over textures.
Loaded.
Nights.
Panzer Dragoon Saga.
Burning Rangers too, including the parts of the stages that are entirely dark and the character casts a green light. Very well made.
Shining Force III is full of lighting effects.
Initial D has dynamic lighting cast by the lights of the car.
Touge 2 has dynamic lighting on the cars, on top of great fog and proper fade-in. Probably the best looking racing game on the console.
Etc...
There are also many games that include proper fade-in effect of the background in the distance, such as Sonic R, Scorcher, Baroque, Touge 2 etc...
All these techniques were still in their infancy to be quite frank, but they did definitely happen on Saturn. If the console had more success, you can be sure every single 3D game would have used them from 97 and after.
Last edited:
Geometric-Crusher
"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
If you liked it that's fine, I didn't like any of them, Daytona, Nights, Burning Rangers, the PD trilogy, House of the Dead, shinobi legions, Sega's fighting games (Golden Axe, VF, Last Bronx) if Sega didn't make any of them Saturn library wouldn't lose much, Saturn to me is for snk, capcom etc I think Mortal Kombat 4, Tomb Raider 2, Gex 2, Need for Speed 2 would make its library much stronger. Sega was not inspired at that time its games declined a lot after the Genesis days.
Last edited:
RetroGamingUK
Member
I know the mental health hotlines are a bit tied up today (
), but once things wind down I suggest you get help.
Variahunter
Member
cartman414
Member
Says the Zelda II hater.
cireza
Member
Did I say Saturn had no issue ? Of course not. Reading is difficult.“Poorly built hardware”
Talking about the Saturn here ? This guy… I can’t
The Saturn, despite its hardware flaws, was not bottlenecked like the N64 was. When the vast majority of the games look like some ugly, blurry, foggy, empty mess of pixels, then you failed at making a good hardware.
Saturn maybe had its issues, but it was very easy to ignore the second CPU, accept that transparency was not going to happen in 3D, and move on with your life. There was no absurd memory or cache bottleneck there, and the games speak for themselves.
Last edited:
Crayon
Member
You scare me.