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[Variahunter]

Did I say Saturn had no issue ? Of course not. Reading is difficult.

The Saturn, despite its hardware flaws, was not bottlenecked like the N64 was. When the vast majority of the games look like some ugly, blurry, foggy, empty mess of pixels, then you failed at making a good hardware.

Saturn maybe had its issues, but it was very easy to ignore the second CPU, accept that transparency was not going to happen in 3D, and move on with your life. There was no absurd memory or cache bottleneck there, and the games speak for themselves.

Saying that N64 was a poorly built hardware when the opponent is Saturn takes a lot of fanboyism...
Saturn is the worst built hardware of the 32 bits gen with the VDP incorporation at the last minute, and Sega originally happy with only one SH-2 CPU until they realized it was not enough for 3D.
It's all over the place and feels like a duct taped hardware to be honest.

 

[cireza]

VDP incorporation at the last minute

This is made-up bullshit and proof you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

People get easily confused

It was the second SH2 processor that was supposedly added following the leak of the PlayStation specs.

It also explains why Saturn’s 1995 games looked/ran so poorly. Most developers only used one processor as developing for both was insanely difficult. Sega just didn’t have proper dev tools available in time.

AM2 worked on SGL (Sega Graphics Library) while developing Virtua Cop in order for developers to treat both SH2 chips as a single chip.

The below video is an interview with AM2’s developers

They also confirm that Saturn was a sprite machine while PlayStation was a polygon machine (not that you could tell).

 

[cireza]

It also explains why Saturn’s 1995 games looked/ran so poorly.

Not really. Most of the games only use one CPU because let's be honest, the second one wasn't really that necessary to begin with, and it is not practical anyway. I think I remember reading that the Lobotomy games only use one CPU for example, yet everyone will agree they are among the most advanced on the console.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Not really. Most of the games only use one CPU because let's be honest, the second one wasn't really that necessary to begin with, and it is not practical anyway. I think I remember reading that the Lobotomy games only use one CPU for example, yet everyone will agree they are among the most advanced on the console.

There’s a difference though.

The Virtua Cop games ran at 30fps with 3D backgrounds and 3D characters.

Exhumed and Duke Nukem used 2D billboards for characters, so not much going on there.

Quake, like Virtua Cop used 3D backgrounds and 3D characters, but the frame rate was all over the shop, especially when enemies appeared on screen. In this case (if it wasn’t already) the second processor should have definitely been used.

 

[RoboFu]

Not really. Most of the games only use one CPU because let's be honest, the second one wasn't really that necessary to begin with, and it is not practical anyway. I think I remember reading that the Lobotomy games only use one CPU for example, yet everyone will agree they are among the most advanced on the console.

Yeah a lot of devs used 1 cpu and the Saturns biggest hurdle wasn't that it was more complex more then it really didn't have a good sdk and for a year or 2 it didn't have one at all for third parties. That meant for the most part you had to use assembly for a lot of tasks or create your own C lib.

Because of this the Saturn still had a lot of untapped potential I mean just look at Shenmue running on the Saturn. That would have been an insane jump from other games.




Also..
The Saturn had more texture cache than both the PlayStation and the n64. 1mb vs 2k and 4k. This is why the n64 had shitty textures it had nothing to do with carts vs disks.
But as for the PlayStation even though it only had 2k of texture cache it had hardware decompression and could load textures just as fast as it could draw. The reading from disk was the PlayStations bottleneck.

 

[BigDeadFreak]

Sad, but, it wasn't so obvious how to play it. It was pretty easy to blow through in a couple hours and say "that was it?". I thought the same despite being blown away for those couple hours.

I took me ages to 'get' nights. It just felt easy and so a bit pointless. I didn't see what the fuss was about. Then, eventually, it clicked and I realised that the point of playing it was just that. You played it for its own sake, just to enjoy the feeling of flight and performing tricks. Of course, there was a high score to chase as well which added it to it.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Because of this the Saturn still had a lot of untapped potential I mean just look at Shenmue running on the Saturn. That would have been an insane jump from other games.

One of the most impressive things seen running on that generation of hardware, at least to the untrained eye.

Shenmue on Dreamcast had lots of slopes, steps and undulation. Everything in this video is using a flat floor similar to Mario Kart on SNES.

Slopes to Saturn are what stairs are for wheelchair users, once they’re encountered things get very bumpy.

Very impressive nonetheless.

 

[cireza]

Quake, like Virtua Cop used 3D backgrounds and 3D characters, but the frame rate was all over the shop, especially when enemies appeared on screen. In this case (if it wasn’t already) the second processor should have definitely been used.

You are comparing an open 3D game with 3D enemies and real-time lighting, to a fixed 3D game where everything is already predetermined, every scene has a set in stone 3D budget, and no lighting. Of course Virtua Cop should run smoother. Is the CPU the bottleneck for Quake ? This remains to be proved. My expectation is that the VDP1 probably is, as with every full 3D, free roaming environment.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Sega Saturn despite having made some achievements in DOA, Panzer Dragoon zwei, Guardian Heroes and Street Fighter vs X-Men is the weakest 5th gen console.

 

[Crayon]

I took me ages to 'get' nights. It just felt easy and so a bit pointless. I didn't see what the fuss was about. Then, eventually, it clicked and I realised that the point of playing it was just that. You played it for its own sake, just to enjoy the feeling of flight and performing tricks. Of course, there was a high score to chase as well which added it to it.

If I had one tip for new people, it would be to try playing it for score at first. Most people don't think about that these days but it's so easy otherwise that score is the best way to put pressure on the game. Once you have some challenge like that the game wakes up.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

If I had one tip for new people, it would be to try playing it for score at first. Most people don't think about that these days but it's so easy otherwise that score is the best way to put pressure on the game. Once you have some challenge like that the game wakes up.

For me I also play for the music, it’s very much a vibe game for me and it just oozes charm and personality

But yeah, the gameplay is 100% about score attack

 

[Crayon]

For me I also play for the music, it’s very much a vibe game for me and it just oozes charm and personality

But yeah, the gameplay is 100% about score attack

My god the music pops up in my head so much... It doesn't get stuck there too bad but it comes up often.

 

[RoboFu]

For me I also play for the music, it’s very much a vibe game for me and it just oozes charm and personality

But yeah, the gameplay is 100% about score attack

you also build up the A-Life in each stage by how you play. this changes a lot of things in the levels. music, graphics, and other things.

 

[RoboFu]

One of the most impressive things seen running on that generation of hardware, at least to the untrained eye.

Shenmue on Dreamcast had lots of slopes, steps and undulation. Everything in this video is using a flat floor similar to Mario Kart on SNES.

Slopes to Saturn are what stairs are for wheelchair users, once they’re encountered things get very bumpy.

Very impressive nonetheless.

anyone can see the differences but still the level of detail to the characters and backgrounds compared to a lot of games att he time and even more so if we are just talking about the Saturn clearly shows a new level of untapped performance. It's all because of the very poor SDK for most of the Saturns life. Only people who were well versed in assembly got anything substantial out of the machine.

It's like the real version of " Wait for the tools! " that happened way too late at the end of the saturns short life.

And looking back it's easy to say " system was weak " but that's only because the playstation was the focus of developers. At the very beginning even with no SDK at all the games were comparable on the two systems. PS also had a few years of no shading and flat non lit textures.

A good comparison on playstation is ridge racer launch game vs the turbo edition that came with RR type 4.

 

[cireza]

But yeah, the gameplay is 100% about score attack

Got more than 200 000 in all 6 stages (not including the final one). Always a pleasure coming back to this game.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Good thread. Just ordered a Saturn, will go through it to get some ideas for what games to play first.

edit: forgot that you were also thinking about this BennyBlanco . I've finally bought a 2nd hand Saturn (model 2), and since I'm in Europe I made sure it has the 50hz/60hz mode already installed.

 

[cireza]

what games to play first.

The ones you can afford. Or buy a Fenrir.

 

[TintoConCasera]

The ones you can afford. Or buy a Fenrir.

I got "The Legend of Saroo and the Quest for the 64GB SD Card"

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

The story of the Sega Saturn isn't over yet, there are many fans out there.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

Shenmue on Dreamcast had lots of slopes

 

[RetroGamingUK]

 

[RetroGamingUK]

The game that sold me on the Saturn…