Sega Sammy confirms that Sega Dream Corporation has fully acquired Index (Atlus)
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BronsonLee
Member
Your alternative is death.
It's like Sophie's Choice!
Busaiku said:
Well, for 7th Dragon, they were only the publisher, so it could've easily been an Equilibrium situation of 'we made enough money, suck it everyone else'
For Shining? Were those the PSP games? There's your answer there.
No, pretty sure that was co-developed and that they owned the rights regardless. Though it sounds like the game was coded in a funny way, and it may've been a hard sell to retailers for all we know so they could've just abandoned it.
BronsonLee
Member
*checks*
Sega AM1, yup you're righto!
And then they moved all the sequels to PSP?
To be blunt, I really don't care about these kind of games and whether or not they get localized. Persona will be fine, SMT will be fine, I'm betting EO will be fine, and maybe some SMT spinoffs. Beyond that? I've got no skin in that game.
jaundicejuice
Member
I hope and imagine that this SegaSammy aquisition of Index is going to have about as much impact on Atlus' development and Atlus USA's localisation output as the Index purchase of Atlus did. Nothing more than a different coporate branding being added to a game's introduction.
Still it only feels like the lesser of all evils, not a positive outcome.
Still it only feels like the lesser of all evils, not a positive outcome.
So basically our problems with the Sega's buyout of Atlus is that Sega refuses to localize their niche Japanese games and that Atlus USA has been relatively successful in localizing niche Japanese games?
Except think about that for a moment... Sega needs a localizer who can make a profit off of their niche Japanese games and Atlus USA is a localizer who can make a profit off of niche Japanese games. Seems more likely Sega would keep Atlus USA as a localization arm because they are good at localizing niche Japanese games within budget. You don't just kill off something like that for something less successful like the localization arm of Sega of America.
Except think about that for a moment... Sega needs a localizer who can make a profit off of their niche Japanese games and Atlus USA is a localizer who can make a profit off of niche Japanese games. Seems more likely Sega would keep Atlus USA as a localization arm because they are good at localizing niche Japanese games within budget. You don't just kill off something like that for something less successful like the localization arm of Sega of America.
Sega wasn't incapable of localizing their games prior to this.
They didn't because it wasn't a feasible option for a company of that size.
As has been said over and over, for a company the size of Atlus, a game selling 35k is a success. For a company like Sega, that is a disaster.
It's only a disaster when they can't profit from it. Atlus USA is probably a lot more efficient at working with a limited budget to localize games than Sega of America is. I'm sure they're capable of localizing titles like Valkyria Chronicles 3 and make a profit from it. Whether or not Sega thinks the same remains to be seen.
Except that Sega apparently spent good money on Atlus... the good money they generally reserve for buying up PC developers. That is not to say Football Manager, Company of Heroes, or Total War is niche, but they aren't exactly the typical AAA title themselves. At this point, with Nintendo having to pay for Sonic and Bayonetta 2, I would argue that Sega is a niche publisher. Outside of Sonic, all they have is PC Strategy games and niche Japanese games. Atlus USA, as a talented localizer of niche Japanese games, would probably be more helpful in making sure western releases of even Sega's niche Japanese games would be within budget.
There's also opportunity costs, and when you spend resources on a modest 35k seller that could've been used on a huge million seller it's still not worth it to them. Think of how in an RPG you wouldn't want to waste time fighting early game monsters at the mid or end game because while they WILL give you EXP, it's just not worth it when you can spend that time traveling to progress the game in a meaningful way.
Question though is whether SEGA is effectively in the same position as an end game or even mid game player at this point, and just where does Atlus's output generally lay in that regard. And the situation obviously is more complex in the financial game: losses can be tax writeoffs, it's not as if you're only commanding one team, you want to increase mindshare and create a dedicated fanbase, etc.
Baron Aloha
A Shining Example
OK, then I should rephrase. I feel like they'd bring over more of the games I care about. Speaking personally, there have been maybe 5 games in the past 5 years that I was really hoping would come out over here, but didn't and 3 of them are from Sega. They haven't inspired a lot of confidence in me as far as localization is concerned, whereas for the other companies I listed, pretty much all the stuff I wanted has made it over.
On the other hand SE hasn't really put out much of the same stuff as Atlus in awhile, so just because you got what you wanted out of SE doesn't mean you'd get what you'd want out of Atlus-under-SE.
Baron Aloha
A Shining Example
Yeah, I know. No doubt. It may not be entirely rational, but from my perspective with Sega I pretty much know I'm screwed.
Remembering this just now, I feel much better about what's happened.
Do you think that not releasing a game outside of Japan would be better than not releasing a game in Europe?
snow in jamaica
Member
the idea of jack frost racing made me imagine a megaten racer with mara, chris the car, the four horsemen, hell biker, speed demon, turbo granny, etc.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Not much difference if you live in Europe
Europe can import
Most of us are focusing on their niche US ventures, but Atlus in Japan has a significant presence.
Persona, Shin Megami Tensei, Dragon's Crown, Catherine, Etrian Odyssey are all good sellers (130k to 300k) that would greatly expand upon Sega's home/portable offerings, which, besides Yakuza, Project Diva, Phantasy Star, and Puyo Puyo, are lacking.
Then you have expanding their character offerings in stuff like Pachislot and other merchandising with Persona and Etrian Odyssey characters and whatnot, as well as taking those franchises to smartphones.
Everything in Japan will probably be much better overall, it's just outside where a lot of us are focusing on.
I think there's a difference between having the option to play a game and literally being able to understand it, even if that option is more costly, than having the option to play a game but needing to learn Japanese to understand it.
charlequin
Banned
Well, for one thing, I don't think selling 5k copies (approximately) of stuff like Growlanser is really "viable," exactly.
Atlus actually got mostly out of the PSP market in 2010, after the release of KitN PSP. From that point onwards, after localizing almost all PSP releases for four years (I think the Growlanser 1 remake was the only one they skipped), they passed over more than they released. The three titles that passed muster after that point were P2-1 (a prestige project for a franchise that was well-established in the US, which underperformed and never saw its companion half see release), Gungnir (continuation of a pre-existing partner relationship), and Growlanser 4 (the product of some kind of bizarre internal politics.)
I wouldn't say it was impossible to profit off a PSP niche game release after 2009, but the sales realities of the platform definitely made it much harder. For a franchise like VC (where the last release had already poisoned the well) it's not hard to see how the math could line up against it.
I think the bigger issue with both is that they fell into a bad window for Sega. The scuttlebutt has been that both internal localizations and external licenses for both 7th Dragon and Shining Force Feather were planned at one point but fell through, probably as a result of some of the issues (Sega losing money while the company was propped up on pachinko profits) that led to the major restructurings soon thereafter.
As I see it, you are hell-bent on attributing all of Sega's problems to a fundamental inability to profit on smaller titles, when that's actually a pretty minor piece of puzzle. Sega will have incentive to continue releasing niche games in the US that are developed on a niche budget and have comparable localization costs, especially with a trusted brand attached.
Yes, and I'm telling you that that's an illogical reaction based on the actual evidence available to us. Square-Enix would unavoidably have a far more destructive impact on any acquisition than Sega would.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Not P4A! lol
Had to hold that 10 month delay
All I'm saying is that I can understand the general apathy towards this acquisition coming from European consumers. Things can't get much worse for them than they already were
That's the most well reasoned, well supported and thoughtful post I've seen in this whole discussion. Thanks for helping to cut through all the FUD.
charlequin
Banned
As I've said, there's still plenty of possibility for downside out of this arrangement --especially over a medium-to-long-term timespan -- but a lot of the hyperbolic reactions in this thread are not particularly based in reality.
No. I totally agree that there are plenty of ways this could go wrong long term. Heck, any merger can go really bad long term. If you think about it, the Index/Atlus buyout didn't go particularly well over the course of the partnership.
All the "everything is dead instantly" reactions are getting out of control, though.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
Since this post discusses the issue of localization of niche Japanese Sega games explicitly, I'll highlight and ask the question for anyone to respond to:
Do we have any reason to assume that the presence of Atlus USA and its comparative better track record of localizing its products (Atlus's output....more or less, being all niche and japanese but still fairly successful to varying degrees, important in the context of a discussion about stuff being localized outside of Japan) will provide any sort of benefit to the lack of localized Sega titles? I thought that if the best possible outcome is that Sega stays out of Atlus's affairs as much as possible (with regards to everything---game development, localization, projections etc.) there's no reason their cultures, philosophies or whatever are somehow going to complement each other. This just means ostensibly that Atlus "picks up the slack" for Sega's niche stuff offerings--which Sega makes a lot of (and I agree with GameGuru here) anyway by themselves. "picking up the slack" or the idea of a "complimentary portfolio" is not something that's encouraging to me who wants Valkyria and Yakuza and etc. etc.
This is also why I don't know if the PR statement from the Atlus guy was at all serious when talking about company synergy. Though PR is sometimes just hot air anyway. Atlus as I understand had few problems except for giving Europe the shaft often. They talked about taking advantage of Sega's distribution capabilities, but I don't see how that was a problem for them. Index had mobile development too, so check that off the list.
Karsticles
Member
I think people are rightly nervous. What was the last thing Sega did right? Cancel Bayonetta 2? Move Valkyria Chronicles to handhelds on weak budgets while neglecting to localize the third game? Another Sonic game? The company is just a long series of bad decisions. I am not happy about this. I would have much rather seen them picked up by Nintendo.
Then again, in a dream scenario maybe Sega will marry Nintendo, and it will all work out after all.
I keep hoping this is part of a plan for Sega to reinvent itself and make Atlus the benchmark for the rest of the company.
I may be reaching here though.
What I think is that both Sega and Atlus want to make money. Naturally, any company wants to make money, but at this point in time, both Atlus and Sega could actually compliment each other. Sega has distribution channels in Europe which Atlus desperately needs, while Atlus has generally better localization skill that Sega desperately needs. Yakuza, Valkryia, and PSO2 have had problems in justifying a localization and Bayonetta 2 required Nintendo to pay to justify its existence, but something on the level of Project Diva doesn't have that sort of problem. I would figure that Project Diva is closer in cost and popularity to an Atlus release. While Yakuza might be a bit too expensive for even Atlus to touch, I could see a scenario where Sega keeps Atlus USA and the Atlus name around to benefit from that name brand. Something like Valkryia could actually benefit from Atlus' quality localization and brand name despite being a Sega game.
In any case, Sega is contractually obligated to at least continue with Atlus' publishing and distribution deals until those contracts expire. My point is that this is not necessarily the "OMG! No more Atlus localizations!" that people seem to be worried about.
IrishNinja
Member
man i am so not here for banned sites guessing at yakuza sales
ive assumed for years Camelot is a shell of what it was (whats the last thing they made that was good? WaLuigi?) but the picture you're painting confirms that the series basically died and a shell is now animated in its stead. this is what i'd feared if say a numbered Phantasy Star happened today.
knew about the remake but not the translation, not at all surprising given the mixed bag & various efforts in the huge Sega AGES effort around that time. i liked the PS2 collection disc we got, for what it's worth.
SOA/Shenmue are a shame for the moment but its not like they didn't put in work with HD remakes this last gen, and the fact that stuff like Guardian Heroes came from Treasure and not Backbone was a great sign as well. who expected JGR & NiGHTS years back?
and i don't have your answer because they don't really do many JRPGs at the moment, hence another reason why this might've been good for them. how many RTS's were they doing before Relic/etc? kinda reinforces the purchase, if anything.
aw man as a Suikoden fan i sympathize, but its so much more uphill for you guys...charlequin (?) just pointed out how 2 poisoned the well, whereas yak 5 put up the best #'s in the series i wanna say & was recent too. once that localization is announced i will join you guys in spirit though!
this post has to be satire, no way the 2nd paragraph is done unironically after the 1st
ive assumed for years Camelot is a shell of what it was (whats the last thing they made that was good? WaLuigi?) but the picture you're painting confirms that the series basically died and a shell is now animated in its stead. this is what i'd feared if say a numbered Phantasy Star happened today.
knew about the remake but not the translation, not at all surprising given the mixed bag & various efforts in the huge Sega AGES effort around that time. i liked the PS2 collection disc we got, for what it's worth.
SOA/Shenmue are a shame for the moment but its not like they didn't put in work with HD remakes this last gen, and the fact that stuff like Guardian Heroes came from Treasure and not Backbone was a great sign as well. who expected JGR & NiGHTS years back?
and i don't have your answer because they don't really do many JRPGs at the moment, hence another reason why this might've been good for them. how many RTS's were they doing before Relic/etc? kinda reinforces the purchase, if anything.
aw man as a Suikoden fan i sympathize, but its so much more uphill for you guys...charlequin (?) just pointed out how 2 poisoned the well, whereas yak 5 put up the best #'s in the series i wanna say & was recent too. once that localization is announced i will join you guys in spirit though!
this post has to be satire, no way the 2nd paragraph is done unironically after the 1st
Delusibeta
Banned
Buy out Relic. As far as the West is concerned, Sega is now The RTS Company, who also does Football Manager and Sonic. If you want Japanese games that's not Sonic, however, it's been slim pickings. Pretty much the only niche game Sega's localised in the last few years was Project Diva F, and that's largely because the translation of the text cost approximately 2p.
When I think of "success story" or "bright future", I think of Sega and its business know-how.. hmm, nope.
This answer implies sega dont have any RPG development teams. they do, Overworks wanted to do more RPGs and instead of Sakura Wars, Skies of Arcadia or Valkyria, Sega put them to work on Rise of Nightmares, a kinect game that sold about 4 copies.
In the meantime they released a Sakura Wars browser game and Valkyria mobile game.
This is what I forsee them doing with Atlus too.
charlequin
Banned
Buy Relic, then move them off of F2P nonsense and encourage them to release more core RTS products? Expand into PC releases with their internal teams? Keep steady on the Football Manager franchise? Publish all of Platinum's underwhelming sellers in the US? Give Monster World IV its first-ever worldwide release?
Well, maybe you should start, given that Sega's reinvented their gaming division into a profitable and sustainable enterprise with global reach?
yes, because, again, it makes sense to pay $140 million for a company and then immediately force everyone there to do stuff completely unrelated to what they're good at
Fox Mulder
Member
ugh, Sega.
A company that's creatively bankrupt and too cheap to put out anything in the US beyond Sonic and PC strategy games.
A company that's creatively bankrupt and too cheap to put out anything in the US beyond Sonic and PC strategy games.
This should be put in the OP or made into its own thread.
StarCreator
Member
Better to be made a new thread. There isn't much worth saving in this one and people don't read anything other than the thread title anyway.
EDIT: And here's that new thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=680877
SpikedGunner
Member
though some would argue that Dead Souls did the same for Yakuza.
..(I still want both to be localized tough, they have the gameplay and stories that interest me)
Although to be fair on the VC side, there isn't as much text(even with the DLC/Extra edition content)/licensing fees in comparison to the Yakuza series (outside of the OP song, which I would get cut anyways), we DO however need English vocal acting which was well done for the previous 2 titles...I'm guessing that cost maybe part of the issues preventing localization, even if Studiopolis does it for cheap. This on top of the whole being on PSP thing(though again, the japanese version is compatible with Vita, no reason to do the same with the English and promoted it as such) and 2 bombing (playing it now, the story is a step down from the first).
But I'm not here to fight, as fan of both series who really wants to see them be released, I'd rather have both fandoms help each other out. Maybe, JUST maybe Atlus could help out due to this sale now. /cautious optimism.
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