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[Althane]

He's a public figure, so it's a lot harder to prove libel.

Sorry, it's late and I'm not exactly a student of law. Why would a public figure make it harder to prove libel? I thought that the damage to reputation would be more noticeable for a public figure.

Other than the "prove the statement was false". Although come to think of it, that's pretty difficult to prove in this case, so I guess?

But why would that be different from a non-public figure? Just more scrutiny in general?

 

[Professor Beef]

Fucking rape threads always have that one shithead who thinks they can tell rape victims how and when they should say they were raped.

 

[B-Dubs]

Sorry, it's late and I'm not exactly a student of law. Why would a public figure make it harder to prove libel? I thought that the damage to reputation would be more noticeable for a public figure.

Other than the "prove the statement was false". Although come to think of it, that's pretty difficult to prove in this case, so I guess?

But why would that be different from a non-public figure? Just more scrutiny in general?

It's late, but basically a public figure is open to far more scrutiny than a private one. So if she accused you or me, assuming you aren't famous, then we could sue her far more easily than he could. Being famous means the standard to prove libel is that much harder. Unless he can prove actual malice there's no way he can do anything.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/public-figure-doctrine/

http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/public-figure/

Basically, he's a celebrity so he'd have to prove that not only are the accusations false, but were made with "actual malice" which is a legal term that means he would have to prove that she knew her accusations are lies.

 

[Althane]

It's late, but basically a public figure is open to far more scrutiny than a private one. So if she accused you or me, assuming you aren't famous, then we could sue her far more easily than he could. Being famous means the standard to prove libel is that much harder.

I'm going to go to bed after this post (3 AM on the east coast, what what), but here's my thought process:

1. Public Figure A does NOT do some shit
2. Accuser B creates claim about A saying they did do shit
3. There is insufficient evidence to prove in a court of law that A did, in fact, do shit. A also knows that B knows he didn't do shit, and is accusing A to damage A in some way.
4. A creates a suit against B for libel, needing to do 3 things:
A. Prove the claim was made falsely
B. Prove it caused harm
C. Prove that B intended to harm A through this claim
(If I'm missing something, please let me know)

It seems to me that A is difficult to pass, especially in the case of a "he-said she-said" situation such as we have now (that we know of). Once that's done, because A is a public figure, they should be able to prove B fairly, and C should fall into place through investigation or subpoenas or something.

(Okay, again, admitting not a law guy or anything, but... man, nevermind. This libel shit seems hard to prove period.)



Edit: I saw your updated post. I'll pop the tabs and check them out tomorrow. Thanks for answering my questions.

 

[Cloyster]

Wow, that's awful. He fucks hundreds of women including rough and roleplay rape. Why the hell does he have to actually do it?! What a cunt. I feel like this guy has been in porn so much and fucked so many women that there must be others right? I wonder if this will open a flood gate?

almost every single porn star will tell you porn sex is no where near as satisfying as real sex. Doesn't excuse it, but yeah.

 

[Makai]

Good thing I kept reading. I thought it was this guy somehow

 

[Ratrat]

Thats horrible. Really sad to hear.

 

[Polari]

Fucking rape threads always have that one shithead who thinks they can tell rape victims how and when they should say they were raped.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having reservations about accusations being made via Twitter.

 

[Forceatowulf]

Dude has always come off as overly aggressive in Damn near every vid I've seen of his. Wouldn't surprise me if it were all true. Not even a little...

 

[Mister Wilhelm]

Social media now trumps due process? Did the internet finally decide that once and for all?

This is a scary thread.

It's a scary world we live in now where people believe emotions should be above the law.

Fucking rape threads always have that one shithead who thinks they can tell rape victims how and when they should say they were raped.

Can we not resort to name calling? I don't see how your post addresses anything I said in a constructive manner.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having reservations about accusations being made via Twitter.

Apparently it makes you a shithead and it's "not a good look" for you.

 

[H.Protagonist]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having reservations about accusations being made via Twitter.

I think he's more referring to the poster who said he outlined the 'proper' way to handle a rape accusation. While I know that poster further added that it's a way to protect both parties, it's a very 'ideal' scenario where any of that would make a difference. In Stoya's case particularly, it seems it was a long time ago, seems to have not happened on set or anywhere where she'd have 'evidence', she's already disadvantaged because of the work she does (meaning, given her job there'd be plenty of people saying/believing it was all just a part of her personal sex life), she's naming a popular/famous figure, they were in a relationship, etc., etc.

Basically, even if she had come forward when it did happen, at best it'd be her word against his, and at worst (and sadly not uncommon at all in rape cases), she'd get dragged through hell and back trying to even get it to go to court, and would in all likelihood fail even if she did because of the stuff I outlined above. Given that she took this long to even speak up about it, it's an event that caused her enough distress to internalize it for some time and she probably felt that either no one would believe her, it wouldn't make a difference, it would hurt her career, or that she herself might even be to blame. None of that is uncommon with the kind of rape she experienced, and so posting about it on twitter now (after therapy, perhaps) is likely what she felt was the only way to get some modicum of 'justice' or peace after what was done to her.

 

[Matt]

It's a scary world we live in now where people believe emotions should be above the law.

What does any of this have to do with the law? None of us are in court, anyone can make whatever judgments or have whatever initial impressions they want.

 

[Exodust]

Wow, that's awful. He fucks hundreds of women including rough and roleplay rape. Why the hell does he have to actually do it?!

Because rape is about power, not whether you're horny or need to get off.

 

[Professor Beef]

I think he's more referring to the poster who said he outlined the 'proper' way to handle a rape accusation. While I know that poster further added that it's a way to protect both parties, it's a very 'ideal' scenario where any of that would make a difference. In Stoya's case particularly, it seems it was a long time ago, seems to have not happened on set or anywhere where she'd have 'evidence', she's already disadvantaged because of the work she does (meaning, given her job there'd be plenty of people saying/believing it was all just a part of her personal sex life), she's naming a popular/famous figure, they were in a relationship, etc., etc.

Basically, even if she had come forward when it did happen, at best it'd be her word against his, and at worst (and sadly not uncommon at all in rape cases), she'd get dragged through hell and back trying to even get it to go to court, and would in all likelihood fail even if she did because of the stuff I outlined above. Given that she took this long to even speak up about it, it's an event that caused her enough distress to internalize it for some time and she probably felt that either no one would believe her, it wouldn't make a difference, it would hurt her career, or that she herself might even be to blame. None of that is uncommon with the kind of rape she experienced, and so posting about it on twitter now (after therapy, perhaps) is likely what she felt was the only way to get some modicum of 'justice' or peace after what was done to her.

This is the nicer way of putting it.

 

[The Real Abed]

Interestingly enough even though I follow her on Twitter I found out about this from a Jim Sterling tweet.

Fucking hell. I really don't know what to say so I'll tread lightly hopefully I won't say something in a wrong way but, no, this is not right. The safe word exists for a reason. You'd think he'd understand that what with the profession he's in. And just because this was in your private life doesn't make it right.

Love you Stoya. I also admire her for her brains. If not more actually to be honest. She seems like a really smart good person. If it's all true then hopefully everyone gets proper justice. If anything it would hopefully hurt his career and not hers.

 

[hobblygobbly]

What does any of this have to do with the law? None of us are in court, anyone can make whatever judgments or have whatever initial impressions they want.

I think they mean the system of presumption of innocence, that you either believe/agree in the declared human right by the UN and laws of countries or you don't, latter meaning that emotion and/or vengeance seems to be above presumption of innocence with certain situations.

 

[Matt]

I think they mean the system of presumption of innocence, that you either believe/agree in the declared human right by the UN and laws of countries or you don't, latter meaning that emotion and/or vengeance seems to be above presumption of innocence with certain situations.

I no way does having an impression of a situation go against the declaration of human rights. I mean...that's just ridiculous.

 

[maquiladora]

Jesus. Awful. If this is true then he needs to be arrested and charged.

 

[hobblygobbly]

I no way does having an impression of a situation go against the declaration of human rights. I mean...that's just ridiculous.

Yes I know but I think their response was in to people saying he should be locked up and calling him a rapist already and wondering if he raped others as well. Don't think they wanted to call out the people that did post such and neither do I want to call out anyone but those aren't simply impressions and that's what I think their post was about and hence my interpretation of what they meant.

 

[B-Dubs]

Yes I know but I think their response was in to people saying he should be locked up and calling him a rapist already and wondering if he raped others as well. Don't think they want to call out the people that did post such and neither do I want to call out anyone but those aren't simply impressions and that's what I think their post was about and hence my interpretation of what they meant.

There's a difference between someone saying those things, as an opinion or a reaction, and the reasons for the UN thing you cited. That refers to governments, not random people talking about a case.

 

[Symphonia]

I'm not saying she's lying, but all we have is her accusation in the form of two tweets. Until concrete evidence, I'm going to refrain from talking down to/about Deen. I've seen first hand what false rape allegations can do to someone's life and until sufficient proof has been provided, a lot of people need to realise that they could be the one's destroying his life.

 

[neorej]

First Christie Mack, now Stoya.... Damn.

 

[IrishNinja]

Fucking rape threads always have that one shithead who thinks they can tell rape victims how and when they should say they were raped.

yup - textbook rape culture, and it's always ugly to see

 

[Matt]

Yes I know but I think their response was in to people saying he should be locked up and calling him a rapist already and wondering if he raped others as well. Don't think they wanted to call out the people that did post such and neither do I want to call out anyone but those aren't simply impressions and that's what I think their post was about and hence my interpretation of what they meant.

And that's still in no way in contrast to human rights.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

That "tweet" is a public accusation from his alleged victim. Not exactly trivial evidence.

It is trivial evidence. There is nothing except our own judgements and this tweet to provehis guilt. This falls into the grey area of assault charges: did it happen? Accusing someone doesn't make it so. Would she lie? I honestly do not know. What I do know is you don't assign guilt because (1) someone accused him and (2) you don't like him.

 

[Darksol]

I'm not saying she's lying, but all we have is her accusation in the form of two tweets. Until concrete evidence, I'm going to refrain from talking down to/about Deen. I've seen first hand what false rape allegations can do to someone's life and until sufficient proof has been provided, a lot of people need to realise that they could be the one's destroying his life.

There's an accusation made by Stoya, who was in a relationship with him, and
Joanna Angel, who is publicly supporting Stoya. In case you didn't know, Angel dated James too. That's pretty damning. In addition, over the next few days you're going to hear about more victims. I wonder how many victims speaking out it will take for you to change your tune. But prepare yourself, because others are coming.

Fucking rape threads always have that one shithead who thinks they can tell rape victims how and when they should say they were raped.

Exactly. Talking down to a trauma victim for not acting cold and objectively after being raped is absolutely sickening.

I like his rough play, but never thought he'd actually go that far.

Rough play has nothing to do with rape.

 

[Herbspiceguy]

I like his rough play, but never thought he'd actually go that far.

 

[Funyarinpa]

Fucking rape threads always have that one shithead who thinks they can tell rape victims how and when they should say they were raped.

It looks more like constructive criticism to me.

 

[Matt]

It is trivial evidence. There is nothing except our own judgements and this tweet to provehis guilt. This falls into the grey area of assault charges: did it happen? Accusing someone doesn't make it so. Would she lie? I honestly do not know. What I do know is you don't assign guilt because (1) someone accused him and (2) you don't like him.

...this is not a court room, she does not have to prove anything, and we don't have to follow any rules of evidence.

 

[Funyarinpa]

...this is not a court room, she does not have to prove anything, and we don't have to follow any rules of evidence.

If you can think of a person as a rapist without conclusive evidence, I have nothing to say to you.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

...this is not a court room, she does not have to prove anything, and we don't have to follow any rules of evidence.

Why should anyone take you seriously in these discussions, then? The Internet is not a place of judgement as this thread has shown: assigning blame with zero evidence. If your gut tells you he did it keep then it to yourself. No reasonable person wants to hear how you cast judgement based on nothing.

 

[Matt]

If you can think of a person as a rapist without conclusive evidence, I have nothing to say to you.

Well that's a silly thing to say. If a friend of yours came to you and said she was raped, but had no proof, you wouldn't believe her?

We make decisions all the time based on far less than "conclusive evidence."

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Well that's a silly thing to say. If a friend of yours came to you and said she was raped, but had no proof, you wouldn't believe her?

We make decisions all the time based on far less than "conclusive evidence."

I would comfort and be sympathetic but I wouldn't cast blame.

 

[Matt]

Why should anyone take you seriously in these discussions, then? The Internet is not a place of judgement as this thread has shown: assigning blame with zero evidence. If your gut tells you he did it keep then it to yourself. No reasonable person wants to hear how you cast judgement based on nothing.

As a point of fact, I don't have any kind of definitive option on this. But to say no one has the right to their own impressions of the situation is laughable.

 

[hobblygobbly]

There's a difference between someone saying those things, as an opinion or a reaction, and the reasons for the UN thing you cited. That refers to governments, not random people talking about a case.

And that's still in no way in contrast to human rights.

I think I may have confused a little, I'm not talking from the point of view of the accuser/Stoya, I'm talking about people on the side lines that call him a rapist, that he should be locked up and that he probably raped others as well for example without that being proven.

I was under the impression that if you call someone a murderer, rapist, thief, etc without it being proven beyond reasonable doubt that they are, whether a reaction/impression or an opinion, being from an ordinary person, pundit, etc, then you can't stand by the principle of presumption of innocence/innocent until proven guilty because you've already passed personal judgement. You're all within your right to do that though. Again, this is obviously not from the view point of the accuser, it's about people in general. Yes in regards to the UN its in relation to governments adhering to this in the legal system, I suppose mentioning that was irrelevant on my part, my bad.

That's what I understand by the poster who said "It's a scary world we live in now where people believe emotions should be above the law.", meaning that what people think of the situation seems to be above innocent until proven guilty which is a big part of the law system in democracies. So yes you can have these impressions but people feel that it's not in accordance to that principle.

I'm not talking about in regards to family/friends who would side and believe someone, but in general with people that have no attachment, especially when pundits on the news and the like do it too. I think it's a complicated issue when it comes to this.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

As a point of fact, I don't have any kind of definitive option on this. But to say no one has the right to their own impressions of the situation is laughable.

You can have your own impressions but if your proof is a 2 tweets then you're going to be laughed at. Be sympathetic, sure, but to say he actually did it or support her position is not the best move. It shows how much you would rather see him suffer than support any truth.

 

[Matt]

That's what I understand by the poster who said "It's a scary world we live in now where people believe emotions should be above the law.", meaning that what people think of the situation seems to be above innocent until proven guilty which is a big part of the law system in democracies. So yes you can have these impressions but people feel that it's not in accordance to that principle.

And no one here is seriously arguing that anyone should be convicted of a crime without the proper evidence. That is wholly unrelated to if anyone as an individual thinks he is guilty.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I would comfort and be sympathetic but I wouldn't cast blame.

Lol, so you'd what tell her I'm here for you but until you prove it in court I can't legally believe you?

 

[Matt]

I would comfort and be sympathetic but I wouldn't cast blame.

OK, then if your mother said this to you? Your wife? You trust no one enough to believe them?

 

[Darksol]

You can have your own impressions but if your proof is a 2 tweets then you're going to be laughed at. Be sympathetic, sure, but to say he actually did it or support her position is not the best move. It shows how much you would rather see him suffer than support any truth.

It's not two. Multiple people who have dated or worked with him are coming forward. In addition, more victims will be speaking out in the near future. Stay tuned.

How many Cosby victims did it take before you thought he did it? Give it time. More people are coming forward.

 

[Professor Beef]

Lol, so you'd tell her I'm here for you but until you prove it in court I can't legally believe you?

"You know I'm here for you, but...let's wait for both sides of the story, OK?"

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Lol, so you'd tell her I'm here for you but until you prove it in court I can't legally believe you?

I would not bring up court. You just be there for them. That's all. if you think court is needed for comfort that's your process.

OK, then if your mother said this to you? Your wife? You trust no one enough to believe them?

Why would I bring up blame? Something bad may have happened so just be nice and comfort them. Be supportive. You can be without saying someone is at fault.

It's not two. Multiple people who have dated or worked with him are coming forward. In addition, more victims will be speaking out in the near future. Stay tuned.

Stay tuned isn't a big thing for me. Why chase the river?

 

[Matt]

Why would I bring up blame? Something bad may have happened so just be nice and comfort them. Be supportive. You can be without saying someone is at fault.

OK, well...that's weird. And, though I imagine you disagree, this aspect of your personality is not a virtue. It seems to show a serious lack of empathy.

 

[True Savior]

Fucking disgusting.

The videos of both of them are some of the hottest around. That shit is now terribly uncomfortable.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I would not bring up court. You just be there for them. That's all. if you think court is needed for comfort that's your process.



Why would I bring up blame? Something bad may have happened so just be nice and comfort them. Be supportive. You can be without saying someone is at fault.

1) I said nothing about my process. I merely was asking if you'd only "believe" your friend after a guilty verdict.

2) Uhhh generally no you can't really say no one is at fault in a rape case. How to you support your friend but say that no one is to blame, in a rape situation. That just makes zero sense.

I mean let's play this out.

Friend: I was raped
You: That's awful, I'm here for you but let's not blame anyone quite yet.
Friend:.....

 

[Subpar Spatula]

OK, well...that's weird. And, though I imagine you disagree, this aspect of your personality is not a virtue. It seems to show a serious lack of empathy.

Empathy for what? You're posing hypothetical of loved ones in hope I get tripped up. It's a twitter post. If you cast judgement now you're just betting there's more wrongdoing later on. You have zero information to play.

1) I said nothing about my process. I merely was asking if you'd only "believe" your friend after a guilty verdict.

2) Uhhh generally no you can't really say no one is at fault in a rape case. How to you support your friend but say that no one is to blame, in a rape situation. That just makes zero sense.

I inferred your process from your snarky comment. You have no legit reason to say that if you didn't believe it somewhat.
Edit: your edit is proof. You never say you're going to blame anyone. Have you ever met someone who's lost or been a victim of anything? Sounds quite amateur. I think this is the moral high ground card.

You can say someone is at fault if evidence comes about. What evidence is here but an allegation? That's the problem with grey areas.

 

[Matt]

Empathy for what? You're posing hypothetical of loved ones in hope I get tripped up. It's a twitter post. If you cast judgement now you're just betting there's more wrongdoing later on. You have zero information to play.

I'm not trying to trip you up, I'm genuinely curious about your thought process. I'm curious about your use of the world "fault" or "blame" with regards to rape. How can a rape victim be the one at fault?

 

[Subpar Spatula]

I'm not trying to trip you up, I'm genuinely curious about your thought process. I'm curious about your use of the world "fault" or "blame" with regards to rape. How can a rape victim be the one at fault?

No one's at fault until something substantial comes about. What is so hard about that? What is so substantial about a few tweets? The obvious being the deep-rooted power imbalance between male and females in general and in the porn industry.

 

[perfectchaos007]

There's an accusation made by Stoya, who was in a relationship with him, and
Joanna Angel, who is publicly supporting Stoya. In case you didn't know, Angel dated James too. That's pretty damning. In addition, over the next few days you're going to hear about more victims. I wonder how many victims speaking out it will take for you to change your tune..

You know the defense is going to try to dismiss the ex girlfriends backing Stoya by going with the angle that they're just being bitter ex girlfriends who wish ill will on James Deen. If she could find testimony of women who weren't ex girlfriends of Deen that would put an end to that angle.

 

[Matt]

No one's at fault until something substantial comes about. What is so hard about that? What is so substantial about a few tweets? The obvious being the deep-rooted power imbalance between male and females in general and in the porn industry.

No, I'm sorry, i'm still stuck on the last point. So if someone you were close to told you they had been raped, you would not believe them...because of male-female power imbalance?