Support NeoGAF

[Beefy]

You know that this group not existing wouldn't stop that tiny percentage from making false claims somewhere else right?

Like getting rid of this group doesn't prevent false accusations anyway

I am saying it as a whole, not just about this group.

 

[Psychoward]

I am saying it as a whole, not just about this group.

OK but the thread is talking about this group and this situation where the police lied to a rape victim about the evidence being destroyed or lost.

 

[Machina]

Since you literally linked to a thread to where none of that was presented... what do you expect?


Do you just make random bullshit as you go along and link things without thinking or reading them at all?

I'll be sure to contact the journalist responsible for the article and request they explicitly ask the men how they're feeling about the whole mess next time, because I'm sure that won't get twisted in any way.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I am saying it as a whole, not just about this group.

So at that point what's your suggestion?

 

[Shredderi]

This thread is infuriating.

Isn't it interesting how just about every woman supports this idea, and the only ones shutting them down are dudes? Yeah...

Technically speaking, it doesn't actually come as a surprise to me as women (the primary victims of rape) will have easier time relating to female rape victims than men do, and men will have easier time relating to the hypothetical rare situation of being falsely accused of rape. So while not right, I don't think it's really surprising.

So much fuckery going on in this case. Destroyed medical records? What? "Oops we accidentally systematically targeted and destroyed an individual's medical records"? That's fucking horrifying.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

Like seriously guys why can't you just admit in plain words you care more about the potential of false rape allegations then the millions and millions of women actually getting raped and their rapists getting away with it.

We have decided as a culture that it's a "necessary evil"

 

[Chmpocalypse]

It's really interesting how quickly people jump to the assumption that women will use this to "falsely accuse" or "ruin men's lives" through talking about their trauma. The vast, vast majority of rape allegations ARE NOT false.

I can see the concerns, and in a tiny fraction of cases it MIGHT be warranted - but why is the default to give men the benefit of the doubt, when countless studies show how rare fabricated rape accusations are and how sexual assault against women is a massive problem that happens all the time? When the police, say, lie about evidence being destroyed, or simply don't care enough to investigate, what should victims do exactly? Just move on? Fuck no.

 

[benicillin]

Thanks for clearing this up. Support/private groups, I'm ok with. But more so ones that are professionally managed. Private facebook groups can be a little sketchy but I'd be a little more ok with that. Once you go public, that only hurts the victims chances at real justice.

I literally don't and can't comprehend how you could think it's acceptable that victims are only allowed to share their experiences if it's approved or managed.

Like this is why people don't come forward, because they have to jump through hoops and perform in front of a bunch of people calling them a liar just to get anyone to believe them in the first place.

 

[MUnited83]

Are there any other biological males in this thread besides me who are willing to say that they are OK with taking the burden of the potential of false rape allegations if it means more women can get justice?

On the list of things I have to worry about a false rape allegation is extremely extremely extremely extremely low on the list

I am.
Number of times me or anyone I know has falsely been accused of rape: 0
People I know that were sexually assaulted in some way in their life: Way,way too many.

I'll be sure to contact the journalist responsible for the article and request they explicitly ask the men how they're feeling about the whole mess next time, because I'm sure that won't get twisted in any way.

Be sure to ask Trump as well, i'm sure is life has been ruined and he is in a lot of mental anguish right now.

The funny thing is that the thread you linked isn't even about a false accusation.


It's very telling that your whole "innocent until proven guilty" only seems to go one way.

 

[Pau]

Thanks for clearing this up. Support/private groups, I'm ok with. But more so ones that are professionally managed. Private facebook groups can be a little sketchy but I'd be a little more ok with that. Once you go public, that only hurts the victims chances at real justice.

Let's be honest. Victims realistically never have a chance at real justice anyways.

 

[Beefy]

OK but the thread is talking about this group and this situation where the police lied to a rape victim about the evidence being destroyed or lost.

It's still a group outing people who may be innocent. I get what happened to her and how she was treated is fucked up. But to just have people post pics of people that they say raped them is dodgy.

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

The flaws in one system do not justify the creation of a system with infinitely greater likelihood of abuse. The barriers to entry are high in the justice system, which is simultaneously admirable and infuriating depending on your perspective. It has to be that way by design in order to protect the accused.

Statistics about false rape allegations made through the justice system really have no bearing on this discussion. The effort involved and the risk of prosecution for filing a false police report, while minimally present even in instances where evidence objectively demonstrates that the accuser was lying, is enough to discourage an intangible $x amount of people from making the accusation in the first place.

None of that would apply if this kind of model became more popular. You don't even have to prove that you are who you say you are on Facebook, let alone go to a police station, provide a legally binding statement, and then go to a hospital to undergo a test that would at least verify that intercourse actually took place.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

You guys are also ignoring the fact that even if a rapist does get convicted and they get jailed, which happens like 3% of the time, they'll probably just be free in a few months if they're white anyway.

So why should we use the system again?

 

[Machina]

Be sure to ask Trump as well, i'm sure is life has been ruined and he is in a lot of mental anguish right now.

Trump got elected after the grab em by the pussy moment. Regardless of whether he is guilty of sexual assault, the former alone proves America has some massive problems it needs to deal with.

 

[Netherscourge]

This is just too likely to be abused by spurned lovers/in custody battles/etc. The system sucks with regards to rape but extralegal avenues like this are NOT the answer. Really I don't know what the answer is, but I think a lot of it is educating men on consent. And I think us guys need to be more vigilant on each other with regards to how our friends and family treat women.

Social media just flat out gets things wrong too (see Boston Bomber). We don't want people forming lynch mobs, doxxing people, etc.



Of course it can be abused! 5-10% of rape claims are found to be fabricated. That's not that many in the number of rapes committed but it's still concerning.

And no, it's not worth the false positives. Our society is based off of the idea that it's better a guilty man go free than an innocent man be punished. Stuff like this undermines that basic tenet.

I'll take my chances with the 5% to 10% of wrongly accused vs. the 90% of guilty.

And, BTW - that woman was found out and she's going to go to jail now. Sometimes the system actually does work itself out.

When the system does let us down, it's still convicting 90% of the true rapists. I like that percentage vs. letting a rapist go free. Sucks for the wrongly accused, but they are a very small minority and justice is more important for the greater good.

In this case, the woman was ignored by the police. So fuck them and fuck the system's tenets.

She should shame him all fucking day, every fucking day.

 

[Psychoward]

The flaws in one system do not justify the creation of a system with infinitely greater likelihood of abuse. The barriers to entry are high in the justice system, which is simultaneously admirable and infuriating depending on your perspective. It has to be that way by design in order to protect the accused.

Statistics about false rape allegations made through the justice system really have no bearing on this discussion. The effort involved and the risk of prosecution for filing a false police report, while minimally present even in instances where evidence objectively demonstrates that the accuser was lying, is enough to discourage an intangible $x amount of people from making the accusation in the first place.

None of that would apply if this kind of model became more popular. You don't even have to prove that you are who you say you are on Facebook, let alone go to a police station, provide a legally binding statement, and then go to a hospital to undergo a test that would at least verify that intercourse actually took place.

She already went through the proper channels. This is different than just a random unverified account posting someone's picture and saying "hey they raped me".

Can you honestly say if you were raped and you went to a police station and provided a legally binding statement, went to a hospital to have an invasive and embarrassing procedure done and then found out the police lied to you about the evidence being destroyed and you had proof from a 3rd party that you would never speak up about it?

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

Okay dad

Spoiler

????

I saw some terrible posts tried to help out a little. Should I have insulted Nepenthe and say how terrible the posts were so I could feel smug and superior? How about I reply to your post and you can tell me if I should be more of an asshole.

This thread is infuriating.

Isn't it interesting how just about every woman supports this idea, and the only ones shutting them down are dudes? Yeah...



lmao

On what planet do you live that someone, a stranger even, would suddenly confront an alleged rapist like that? Have you ever interacted with a female human who wasn't your mom? JFC



Yeah, I know you want to appeal to their sense of empathy, but it's very hard for some dudes to understand because fear of rape is not something they have lived with their entire life, it's entirely alien to them. (Fear of being falsely accused, apparently, haunts them constantly, apparently...!)

Interesting isn't how I would put it regarding the gender divide. More like no shit. Who would gain the most from a private channel accusing people of rape? Women. Who would lose the most from a private channel accusing people of rape? Men. Yeah...

The person lives on planet earth where people dish out forms of mob justice. Hello gamergate? Are you not watching Black Mirror? If not, what is wrong with you?

Or maybe the people here that are against this have better understanding of false accusations of rape, or just false accusations in general. You know the ones that led to black men being hanged, a few decades ago, or imprisoned. How about all those people Texas executed that were exonerated too late? Why don't some of you think why private channels on the internet isn't used in other crimes in our justice system if you think it is so great?

 

[Zeyphersan]

Trump got elected after the grab em by the pussy moment. Regardless of whether he is guilty of sexual assault, the former alone proves America has some massive problems it needs to deal with.

It proves that there’s not as many consequences for an accusation as you say there are

 

[Audioboxer]

Thanks for clearing this up. Support/private groups, I'm ok with. But more so ones that are professionally managed. Private facebook groups can be a little sketchy but I'd be a little more ok with that. Once you go public, that only hurts the victims chances at real justice.

Well, sure, professionally managed groups have the added benefit of having counsellors/psychologists or trained support workers. People still do things in communities outside of that maybe due to a lack of options in their area, or in the case of the internet, it might be the partial anonymity it provides. Although on FB, there's probably your pictures, location, job or what not on display, given how people upload "half" their lives to it these days. Anyway, I digress, the important thing here is recognising private vs public, and what both entail.

It's when people start going fully public, things can end up being a bit of a mess. I'd still air on the side of complete care and empathy handling public accusations, but at the same time law enforcement/lawyers and education institutes have a reason why they try and state be careful what you do publicly.

 

[Machina]

It proves that there’s not as many consequences for an accusation as you say there are

In America, clearly. If Trump said that in the UK or Australia, he doesn't even make it to the election.

 

[Beefy]

So at that point what's your suggestion?

More identity protection for those accused of rape and who are victim of rape. Maybe the signing of papers saying names can't be made public etc.

Far more after care for both groups. Both will need therapy after going through what happened to them.

Far more police believing a victim and police questioning of the that person to be taken by a trained professional instead of just a random police guy.

Rapists to be locked up for longer and to be made to attended some kind of therapy (many rapists are abuse victims themselves).

-------------

As a dude who has been through being labeled a rapist and having been abused as a child I can see huge flaws on both sides

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

I saw some terrible posts tried to help out a little. Should I have insulted Nepenthe and say how terrible the posts were so I could feel smug and superior? How about I reply to your post and you can tell me if I should be more of an asshole.



Interesting isn't how I would put it regarding the gender divide. More like no shit. Who would gain the most from a private channel accusing people of rape? Women. Who would lose the most from a private channel accusing people of rape? Men. Yeah...

The person lives on planet earth where people dish out forms of mob justice. Hello gamergate? Are you not watching Black Mirror? If not, what is wrong with you?

Or maybe the people here that are against this have better understanding of false accusations of rape or just false accusations in general. You know the ones that led to black men being hanged, a few decades ago, or imprisoned. How about all those people Texas executed that were exonerated too late? Why don't some of you think why private channels on the internet isn't used in other crimes in our justice system if you think it is so great?

Alright you hate private channels fine.

So what are you actually doing personally to help change the system and bring more rapists to justice? Because if you truly do understand false allegations then you would understand that false rape allegations are a much smaller problem then women getting raped and rapist getting away with it. So if you were combating false rape allegations that I have to imagine you're also doing a lot to combat rape

 

[Ratrat]

Are there any other biological males in this thread besides me who are willing to say that they are OK with taking the burden of the potential of false rape allegations if it means more women can get justice?

On the list of things I have to worry about a false rape allegation is extremely extremely extremely extremely low on the list

I would say yes.
But I am also a gay male who is more likely to be attacked than accused.

 

[Machina]

More identity protection for those accused of rspe and who are victim of rape. Maybe the signing of papers saying names can't be named public etc.

Far more after care for both groups. Both will need therapy after going through what happened to them.

Far more police believing a victim and police questioning of the that person to be taken by a trained professional instead of just a random police guy.

Rapists to be locked up for longer and to be made to attended some kind of therapy (many rapists are abuse victims themselves).

Rape registry. Pedophiles are forced onto such things, why shouldn't rapists

 

[Dude Abides]

Like seriously guys why can't you just admit in plain words you care more about the potential of false rape allegations then the millions and millions of women actually getting raped and their rapists getting away with it.

And it's not even false rape allegations to the police! It's people talking on Facebook!

 

[Pau]

Like seriously guys why can't you just admit in plain words you care more about the potential of false rape allegations then the millions and millions of women actually getting raped and their rapists getting away with it.

We have decided as a culture that it's a "necessary evil"

Basically. I'd rather hear this than be lied to that rape is serious and then be told actually, nevermind, it's too hard, unrealistic, or dangerous to actually do anything about it.

The most I can hope for is for an already shitty police and prison system to actually pursue cases, not destroy evidence, and not treat alleged victims like shit. I understand that even a perfect functioning system where such things happen and there is no racial, gender, or sexual identity bias, that a huge number of cases (perhaps even the majority) will result in no conviction because it's ultimately down to "he said, she said." Considering that, I don't know if even then I'd ever want to take such a case to court.

 

[Clockwork]

Rape registry. Pedophiles are forced onto such things, why shouldn't rapists

Umm..I have some news for you...sex offender registries include those convicted of rape.

 

[KingV]

I was just drafting up this post, along with some other examples of men being accused of or actually doing terrible things to women and not really getting their careers hamstrung in the slightest (Chris Brown. R. Kelly). Men don’t really get bogged down by this stuff like people think they do. They generally do just fine.

Yes, three famous people skated by with little to no negative outcomes => anybody accused of rape skates by with no negative outcomes. /s

This is what people call cherry picking.

 

[Zeyphersan]

In America, clearly. If Trump said that in the UK or Australia, he doesn't even make it to the election.

First off, that’s something I would have said about America before this election as well, now I think there’s no way you can make that statement with any degree of certainty.

 

[Machina]

Umm..I have some news for you...sex offender registries include those convicted of rape.

Are those registries public?

 

[benicillin]

Society in general defaults to blaming and/or not believing rape victims for coming forward because that's literally rape culture and you can see it play out in this thread.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I saw some terrible posts tried to help out a little. Should I have insulted Nepenthe and say how terrible the posts were so I could feel smug and superior? How about I reply to your post and you can tell me if I should be more of an asshole.

I found your post to be exceedingly condescending. No, you shouldn't have insulted Nepenthe instead of tone-policing or mansplaining to her, you probably should just have STFU.

"You can still post, but" -- like okay thank you for your permission?!

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

Basically. I'd rather hear this than be lied to that rape is serious and then be told actually, nevermind, it's too hard, unrealistic, or dangerous to actually do anything about it.

The most I can hope for is for an already shitty police and prison system to actually pursue cases, not destroy evidence, and not treat alleged victims like shit. I understand that even a perfect functioning system where such things happen and there is no racial, gender, or sexual identity bias, that a huge number of cases (perhaps even the majority) will result in no conviction because it's ultimately down to "he said, she said." Considering that, I don't know if even then I'd ever want to take such a case to court.

What happening in this thread is that a lot of men don't realize what they're doing is fighting to keep all their power over women. that's literally what's happening in this thread. Men believe that they should have a power over women that prevents them from having the ability to accuse them of rape. And a lot of men in this thread cannot possibly imagine a scenario where the give up that power

 

[superbeau]

Are there any other biological males in this thread besides me who are willing to say that they are OK with taking the burden of the potential of false rape allegations if it means more women can get justice?

On the list of things I have to worry about a false rape allegation is extremely extremely extremely extremely low on the list

Nearly every women who's comfortable with me has an assault story. I've advocated for victims. I know the legal system chews up victims and leaves them empty time after time. Man or woman it doesn't matter. DAs hate rape trials because they are so often hard to prove. There was the NY teacher who was raped in daylight in public with witnesses and the jury was split because she couldn't remember the color of a car near the attack. Want to know how many people will turn on you? Accuse someone they like or trust of rape.
I'll say this. I'm not worried about it. I'm not going to be falsely accused of rape with all comfortable probability. People are and that fucking sucks and is wrong. I'm sure if I were no one would believe I would rape. I'm white though, and it wasn't too long ago POC were just straight up murdered if they were accused of rape. Any person who lies provably should be prosecuted harshly. Not just because of the damage done to the accused but also because they helped keep that false accusation above 0%. Making it ever difficult to get people to believe victims and serve them justice. Not all rape accusations are the same though. Tearing, bruises, police misconduct, etc go in to whether I'm comfortable believing the victim enough to name and shame. I'm also comfortable knowing we will just never know for a lot of rape. It'll just come down to whether a person had consent or not and we should probably just give up having an opinion unless we're on the jury.

 

[Royce McCutcheon]

Are those registries public?

Extremely public, you can look up your neighbor's right now.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Rape registry. Pedophiles are forced onto such things, why shouldn't rapists

There already is a sexual offenders register in the UK

 

[Kalamoj]

Are there any other biological males in this thread besides me who are willing to say that they are OK with taking the burden of the potential of false rape allegations if it means more women can get justice?

On the list of things I have to worry about a false rape allegation is extremely extremely extremely extremely low on the list

What you suggest that we should accept that if anyone gets charged that person is automatically proven guilty. After a few years we would have statistics for every possible case.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Are those registries public?

https://www.google.com/search?ei=rj...obile-gws-serp..0.2.558...0i131k1.HjLvG3WgHXM

 

[Sunster]

she should wait for all the facts to come out. /s

 

[Machina]

Extremely public, you can look up your neighbor's right now.

There already is a sexual offenders register in the UK

https://www.google.com/search?ei=rj...obile-gws-serp..0.2.558...0i131k1.HjLvG3WgHXM

Then there is already an avenue to name and shame the guilty already. Victims need to mobilize and go after the real problem, the system that denies them justice.

Vigilantism is not the way and never has been.

 

[Clockwork]

Are those registries public?

I am sure it varies by jurisdiction but yes.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

What you suggest that we should accept that if anyone gets charged that person is automatically proven guilty. After a few years we would have statistics for every possible case.

Okay so what CURRENTLY happens in the real world is 97% of actual rapists go free, and the amount of rape allegations that are false is anywhere from 2% to 7%.

So again I'll say it . Can you please just say the words " I care more about the potential of a false rape allegation than the millions and millions of actual women getting raped and their rapists getting away with it"

 

[Clockwork]

What happening in this thread is that a lot of men don't realize what they're doing is fighting to keep all their power over women. that's literally what's happening in this thread. Men believe that they should have a power over women that prevents them from having the ability to accuse them of rape. And a lot of men in this thread cannot possibly imagine a scenario where the give up that power

This is a bunch of bullshit.

The context could change to any accusation of criminal behavior and I would still say that people should not be taking the law into their own hands.

 

[Tawpgun]

What if they actually did rape someone though.

Like I really like how we're all just assuming these groups are full of liars slandering people for the fun of it. Because acting like a rape victim is really fun.

No one is saying that. (at least I hope)

I'm trying to frame this whole thing in a more legal point of view. If someone raped someone, they should be put behind bars. Obviously.

Now, if someone raped someone, but there isn't any conclusive evidence besides the victims testimony.... Unfortunately, due the the FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE of innocent until proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, we cannot convict the rapist. It doesn't feel fair. It isn't fair. Because in this hypothetical case we know what really happened and justice wasn't served. But in the real world, these cases can get cloudy. This is why it feels like rapists get off the hook so much. There is definitely room for improvement in laws, support, and general procedure and of course culture. But there's only so much you can do when a lot of cases simply don't have sufficient evidence because the act usually occurs in a private setting.

 

[benicillin]

Then there is already an avenue to name and shame the guilty already. Victims need to mobilize and go after the real problem, the system that denies them justice.

Vigilantism is not the way and never has been.

It is not vigilantism to tell other people in your community that you were raped. They aren't putting on a fucking costume, attacking rapists and dragging them to a guillotine.

 

[Lunarwhale]

kinda funky how many of you are against women speaking to other women in private. maybe step back and stop projecting yourself onto the alleged rapists.

False accusations suck but they're statistically very minor and ultimately less of a problem than the large numbers of rapes that are ignored. There's also literally nothing wrong with women in private (or frankly? in public either!) saying "hey this guy was a rapist/abusive/etc so maybe don't date him." Jesus Christ.

 

[Zeyphersan]

Yes, three famous people skated by with little to no negative outcomes => anybody accused of rape skates by with no negative outcomes. /s

This is what people call cherry picking.

Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t know that if I wanted to expand on an idea I had to literally gather every instance of something happening either for or against.

Those are very pertinent examples because they’re three very high profile people who you expect to get taken down by this stuff, give A) the attitudes around accusations in this thread being this life ending event, and B) in two of those email examples they weren’t just accusations, that shit actually happened. Why aren’t their lives destroyed right now? Because, generally speaking (which is code for looking at broad patterns not every conceivable example if you’re having issues following along) there AREN’T that many consequences for guys in these situations.

It’s three examples meant to counteract the hyperbolic attitudes coming from some people here. And one of them is very very relevant given he’s now the president of the United States. So much for the emotional trauma of being accused, the public flogging and social outcasting

Then there is already an avenue to name and shame the guilty already. Victims need to mobilize and go after the real problem, the system that denies them justice.

Vigilantism is not the way and never has been.

This isn’t vigilantism, it’s people talking.

 

[Machina]

It is not vigilantism to tell other people in your community that you were raped. They aren't putting on a fucking costume, attacking rapists and dragging them to a guillotine.

The female Superintendent clearly stated in the article in the OP that it is. She is a lot more qualified to say what is vigilantism than either you or I are.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

I think it's interesting and kind of funny how the Women in this thread and the men defending them are perfectly willing to admit that we care more about actual women getting raped than the potential of false rape allegations that are much much much rarer.

But for some reason all the guys on the other side are unable to admit that they care more about false rape allegations than women getting raped, even though that is literally the position they are defending

 

[Beefy]

I think it's interesting and kind of funny how the Women in this thread and the men defending them are perfectly willing to admit that we care more about actual women getting raped than the potential of false rape allegations that are much much much rarer.

But for some reason all the guys on the other side are unable to admit that they care more about false rape allegations than women getting raped, even though that is literally the position they are defending

Or you know they care about both. It's pretty interesting people that haven't been through being falsely accused of rape calling it minor etc.