Vital Tundra
Member
I would wait on 12. The remaster has to be coming soon and we might get the infinitely better version.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
"Shenmue, Final Fantasy VII and why we shouldn't entirely give in to nostalgia"
- Thread starter oni-link
- Start date
Theonik
Member
Because these trends are concerning because reasons.
Vincent Grayson
Member
Of course they do. People were flipping their shit over how good Horizon is going to be.
It's just that things we already have a strong emotional attachment to are going to resonate more.
People wanted to see the ending to the Shenmue story, right? What's that got to do with nostalgia?
Among the TLG, Shenmue 3, FF7R trio, only FF7 has nostalgia going for it, and even then it's an actual remake, not a remaster. For all we know it could be as good of a remake as Gamecube's REmake was, and for someone like me who never played the original and heard great things about it, I'm personally excited.
But sure, nostalgia..
Among the TLG, Shenmue 3, FF7R trio, only FF7 has nostalgia going for it, and even then it's an actual remake, not a remaster. For all we know it could be as good of a remake as Gamecube's REmake was, and for someone like me who never played the original and heard great things about it, I'm personally excited.
But sure, nostalgia..
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
'how dare anyone be happy for a game they've been waiting for years to be announced. Blah blah cynical internet person
DangerMouse
Member
Yup. That FFXII HD remaster with the added content from the Japanese version would be perfect for this.
I was being sarcastic. I don't agree with the article at all.
Article when read thru is way more reasonable than it's provocative title ... But I guess if it was titled let's keep our expectations in check while wishing for the best we can get = less clicks and no neogaf thread.
And yes I'm sure some possibly several ppl wil be dissapointed with the remakes /Shen 3 gaming has moved on . Mgs1 was epic when it came out . Story/writing is shit compared to recent efforts like gone home tlou etc
And yes I'm sure some possibly several ppl wil be dissapointed with the remakes /Shen 3 gaming has moved on . Mgs1 was epic when it came out . Story/writing is shit compared to recent efforts like gone home tlou etc
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I dislike articles like this because the underlying message is pointless and applies to everything not just these games. Why be excited for anything really? Lets wait and see how it turns out....riiiight.
Another downplaying/"Don't be excited for X" article you say?
Author is so edgey he should be tag teaming with Christian.
I'd say most NES era games have aged just as badly as most PS1 era games, but for different reasons tbh. Some SNES era games too, actually.
Author is so edgey he should be tag teaming with Christian.
I'd say most NES era games have aged just as badly as most PS1 era games, but for different reasons tbh. Some SNES era games too, actually.
Idk, I didn't actually get to play through FF VII until 2010 and it still ended up being one of my favorite RPGs. The only thing that really fell short were the Character models. Jesus Christ are they bad compared to FF VIII or FF IX. Rest of the game? Perfectly fine for a turn-based RPG, even in the '00s.
HOW FAR CAN THE NOSTALGIA DRIVEN INDUSTRY GO?
Certainly not as far as the Brand New Year of Heavily Anticipated Blockbusters such as Halo 5: This Time with More Colored Explosions and even less complex battles, Tomb Raider: Lara Croft is Still Only Timed Exclusive, Assassin's Creed Syndicate: Guys, We Found Our Female Models Edition, Call of Duty Black Ops III: THE Magic is In the Gatorade and the "Guaranteed To be Laggy" Servers.
Yeah, sure. This is as far as we can go. We have been praying for more than ten year for Shenmue saga to continue. It is. Fuck us. Fuck us hard. Bring us down, Talk about DANGEROUS PRECEDENTS. Do it.
Tell me how dangerous this is. I mean, every corner after this, a good old developer will threaten me to resurrect a favorite game that still has more complex mechanics than anything that comes after it.
One day I will be threatened to pay up for a truly open game like Might and Magic VI. One day my money will be held in ransom for a proper X-COM sequel that respects the original's mechanics without stripping away anything from it. One day, stories like Final Fantasy VI(!) will resurface. Or dare I say FFV? No, only in the mirror, on halloween.
No, these dangers are very real, and we, as gamers, must unite against them. We need every bit of season passes. We need our hard-earned achievements. We need our laggy, broken, patch-required day one editions, and we must perservere.
We must.
Certainly not as far as the Brand New Year of Heavily Anticipated Blockbusters such as Halo 5: This Time with More Colored Explosions and even less complex battles, Tomb Raider: Lara Croft is Still Only Timed Exclusive, Assassin's Creed Syndicate: Guys, We Found Our Female Models Edition, Call of Duty Black Ops III: THE Magic is In the Gatorade and the "Guaranteed To be Laggy" Servers.
Yeah, sure. This is as far as we can go. We have been praying for more than ten year for Shenmue saga to continue. It is. Fuck us. Fuck us hard. Bring us down, Talk about DANGEROUS PRECEDENTS. Do it.
Tell me how dangerous this is. I mean, every corner after this, a good old developer will threaten me to resurrect a favorite game that still has more complex mechanics than anything that comes after it.
One day I will be threatened to pay up for a truly open game like Might and Magic VI. One day my money will be held in ransom for a proper X-COM sequel that respects the original's mechanics without stripping away anything from it. One day, stories like Final Fantasy VI(!) will resurface. Or dare I say FFV? No, only in the mirror, on halloween.
No, these dangers are very real, and we, as gamers, must unite against them. We need every bit of season passes. We need our hard-earned achievements. We need our laggy, broken, patch-required day one editions, and we must perservere.
We must.
I wonder if part of this comes from a deep-seeded insecurity in the current industry. If people keep longing for nostalgic experiences and things from the past, maybe it's because we believe something has been lost. This must be terrifying to face in a declining console industry. I dunno.
"In order to sell our new stuff, we must actively convince people that the good stuff from the past is nostalgia and we have moved on. It doesn't work anymore. We've move beyond it. Please accept our heavily cinematic gameplay and Doritos-enhanced multiplayer modes."
I know that's quite a stretch but it's just the kind of thing I've been noticing over this gen and the previous one.
"In order to sell our new stuff, we must actively convince people that the good stuff from the past is nostalgia and we have moved on. It doesn't work anymore. We've move beyond it. Please accept our heavily cinematic gameplay and Doritos-enhanced multiplayer modes."
I know that's quite a stretch but it's just the kind of thing I've been noticing over this gen and the previous one.
Thought it was an interesting article. I don't necessarily agree with the notion that FF7 and Shenmue aren't replayable. I could play Shenmue today and easily pick up on something I missed. His criticism doesn't necessarily apply to just games either, old movies are getting remade or reimagined all the time now too. It's important to not just bank entirely on nostalgia, but for these examples I don't really mind. Shenmue 3 may be an unknown entity regarding gameplay, but the narrative will be all new and a direct continuation to a game 14 years ago. Final Fantasy 7 won't be a scene for scene remake, there will surely be changes to the story and gameplay. Which I think is right, it doesn't have to be a complete remake, but reminding you what was good about the game whilst keeping it up to date.
So I take it you only play snes or ps1 gen games ? Maybe ps2 gen at most ? Hate current gaming so much no one is stopping you from going back and staying with old consoles .will save you a lot of money too . Talk about rose tinted glasses to the extreme
Edit : and I like some older stuff too loved cs q3 didn't like cod but still embraced csgo . Seriously your post is an extreme overreaction
Shenmue was probably the first hint of modern open world gaming, out of Japan. There's no reason why a new one couldn't stand with newer games, in that basic sense.
I've played through FFVII, 3 times. That's pretty good replay value. and the world map setup actually felt nearly unlimited, at the time. By today's standards, It still harbors an impressive amount of content and secrets. Quite a bit of it you don't have to do, isn't forced down the linear pipe of the core game.
I'm actually pretty sure the FFVII remake will be a pretty wild departure from the structure of the original. Even if it weren't: I don't think FFVII would leave modern gamers feeling empty handed, in a first play through. A facelift and slight update of game systems is all that would really be needed, to ensure palatability.
DangerMouse
Member
Indeed.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
Does the author know how these games will end up being ? or is he talking out of his ass?
GamerMax73
Member
I'm still waiting for a PS4 'Beneath A Steel Sky' remake...
Extreme overreaction?
Oh yes, I hope you saw the Selective Capitalization.
However, seriously. This game industry can sustain these games.
(And I also do not understand why FFVII REMAKE and a brand new Shenmue game is coupled together.)
There are plenty good games in the current gaming world. Path of Exile, LoL, Dota2, CSGO, Pillars of Eternity, hell even Witcher 3 seems to have delivered. But these are not the games that dictate the narrative of the AAA-industry, even with the numbers some of these bring in.
Can Crusher
Banned
Thanks for the warning Guardian, really a most pressing issue no doubt.
Omnistalgic
Member
Read my name and understand me...
JimmyRustler
Member
Nostalgia gave u one of the greatest games of all time --> REmake.
So I disagree. Can't wait for the FFVII remake.
So I disagree. Can't wait for the FFVII remake.
boredandlazy
Member
I've only played through FFXII once. Of course if a HD remaster comes along I'd be diving straight back in.
Nostalgia is perfectly fine for me and in no way is the industry relying on it! There were a few new IP shows, current IPs as well as nostalgia.
The one thing you won't see is lots of new IPs from lots of massive AAA developers simply because you can't afford it these days. Look to smaller development teams to fill the void or the likes of Kickstarter where old school devs can enter the market with refreshing games.
Shenmue and Final Fantasy were the biggest hits from a consumer point of view because they were nostalgic. From the press and industry point of view it seems like VR/AR was the biggest hit for them. The problem for consumers is not many people have got to try it so it doesn't have much appeal when you are watching reactions of a player on a 2D screen.
The one thing you won't see is lots of new IPs from lots of massive AAA developers simply because you can't afford it these days. Look to smaller development teams to fill the void or the likes of Kickstarter where old school devs can enter the market with refreshing games.
Shenmue and Final Fantasy were the biggest hits from a consumer point of view because they were nostalgic. From the press and industry point of view it seems like VR/AR was the biggest hit for them. The problem for consumers is not many people have got to try it so it doesn't have much appeal when you are watching reactions of a player on a 2D screen.
'Nostagia', as a broad, sweeping dismissal of the appeal of older games, is a terrible argument. Some games age way better than others, and some of them I didn't encounter until years after they were first released. I couldn't afford to buy Super Metroid for £65 in 1995, but playing it through in 2010, it's still a sublime experience and wiped the floor with virtually everything else I played that year.
What's even worse is that it's often used to discount the few games we do remember, when the reason they are remembered so fondly is that they are the better games of their generation. Off the top of my head, I'd struggle to remember many of the awful games I've played over the last three decades, but I can probably remember all the great ones that I've revisited and found to have aged incredibly well.
Just because older games require players used to almost-universal modern console control schemes and being explicitly told what to do and where to go to sit and get their heads around a system that's probably unique to that title doesn't make it any worse. Being unable to appreciate something for being groundbreaking at the time is like sitting in a cinema and thinking Metropolis is awful because it doesn't have any CGI and is in black and white.
Where people sit and critique an individual titles flaws (and FFVII has many), that's cool. We certainly weren't exactly oblivious to them at the time, either. But when 'nostalgia' is used as a blanket dismissal of entire catalogues without any clear, specific reasons why, I just find it laughable.
What's even worse is that it's often used to discount the few games we do remember, when the reason they are remembered so fondly is that they are the better games of their generation. Off the top of my head, I'd struggle to remember many of the awful games I've played over the last three decades, but I can probably remember all the great ones that I've revisited and found to have aged incredibly well.
Just because older games require players used to almost-universal modern console control schemes and being explicitly told what to do and where to go to sit and get their heads around a system that's probably unique to that title doesn't make it any worse. Being unable to appreciate something for being groundbreaking at the time is like sitting in a cinema and thinking Metropolis is awful because it doesn't have any CGI and is in black and white.
Where people sit and critique an individual titles flaws (and FFVII has many), that's cool. We certainly weren't exactly oblivious to them at the time, either. But when 'nostalgia' is used as a blanket dismissal of entire catalogues without any clear, specific reasons why, I just find it laughable.
The sort-of-backlash meeting these announcements, especially Shenmue's, is ridiculous to say the least.
I wish the industry relied more on nostalgia and less on iteration upon iteration of "new" games. That way we'd see some actual novel concepts applied to old-ass IPs and abandoned genres: you can only do so much to innovate in FPSs and open world games, if you forgo everything else that was important in the history of the medium.
I wish the industry relied more on nostalgia and less on iteration upon iteration of "new" games. That way we'd see some actual novel concepts applied to old-ass IPs and abandoned genres: you can only do so much to innovate in FPSs and open world games, if you forgo everything else that was important in the history of the medium.
Great post
The nostalgia argument forgets there are people who go back and play older games they didn't play at the time of release, and who still enjoy them
Remakes and remasters, sequels are great, but I'm pretty sure most of us would be unhappy if 3 out of 4 new games fit the above categories. It's not very hard to head into that direction as the market currently is.
Also, it disgusts me that "nostalgia" is thrown around like an accusation and a curse word. But there's no point going further into that when the aforementioned point has been reached. Those who know, know.
Also, it disgusts me that "nostalgia" is thrown around like an accusation and a curse word. But there's no point going further into that when the aforementioned point has been reached. Those who know, know.
encephalon
Member
After being inundated with "VII isn't that great" and "VI is better" over the years I went back to play it and it ended up exceeding my expectations. It's precisely because of things like the climb that the remake needs to happen. VII has far more potential than it achieves. It's marred by an inconsistent graphical style, a messy translation, awkward use of prerendered backgrounds, and a variety of poorly conceived or executed ideas. Often in mini game form. Apply the original scenario to twenty years of expertise and you have a much more competent Final Fantasy VII, whatever form it may take.
I've always been puzzled by the reasons people give for replayability and agree.
I've always been puzzled by the reasons people give for replayability and agree.
nostalgia doesnt apply for me. i've never played FF7 not to mention it's bound to have changes especially in regards to combat.... and shenmue 3 is a sequel to a franchise i loved back in the day, so i'm not sure that falls under the umbrella of nostalgia either.
my definition of nostalgia is playing a game again after a long time has passed, but the key thing is that it's the SAME game. MGS on PSone triggers it. flashback on the megadrive does. the twin snakes and flashback remake didnt, becasue they were new games.
it's like i can get nostalgic over certain candy. but it has to be the same. it can't have a new recipe yet be called the same thing...it doesn't work.
my definition of nostalgia is playing a game again after a long time has passed, but the key thing is that it's the SAME game. MGS on PSone triggers it. flashback on the megadrive does. the twin snakes and flashback remake didnt, becasue they were new games.
it's like i can get nostalgic over certain candy. but it has to be the same. it can't have a new recipe yet be called the same thing...it doesn't work.
Nope, we finally get one of the most demanded and dreamed of remakes and right on schedule people want to cut it down.
maquiladora
Member
"Give us FF7 remake and Shenmue 3, weve been begging for it for years!"
"Here is FF7 remake and Shenmue 3"
"Ugh, stop fucking pandering to nostalgia!"
"Here is FF7 remake and Shenmue 3"
"Ugh, stop fucking pandering to nostalgia!"
DrROBschiz
Member
Im with the majority of you on this one
While this article may or may not have some valid opinions I only see the recent announcements as a net positive
I don't see why this could ever been seen as a bad thing. I actually like the Duality approach of remastering classics alongside making new IP
It provides a nice balance and satisfies a larger body of players. Cherish the old as you produce the new
With the Wide breadth of games we get nowadays I dont think the argument for the alternative really holds water.
While this article may or may not have some valid opinions I only see the recent announcements as a net positive
I don't see why this could ever been seen as a bad thing. I actually like the Duality approach of remastering classics alongside making new IP
It provides a nice balance and satisfies a larger body of players. Cherish the old as you produce the new
With the Wide breadth of games we get nowadays I dont think the argument for the alternative really holds water.
DangerMouse
Member
Yup. Sigh.
And we're getting both entirely new stuff and a couple of nostalgia things and even the "nostalgia" is brand new versions as in a totally new sequel and a full remake, not even a remaster.
Thank goodness for the videos of GT's live reactions and the real reactions captured from real people experiencing those announcements.
Dr. Buni
Member
I don't see the problem with winning people over with nostalgia. There are plenty of new games experimenting new things out there (mostly indie games, but if you don't like them the joke is on you). I mean, lots of people wanted to see the conclusion of the Shenmue saga, how can a Shenmue 3 announcement be a bad thing? As for Final Fantasy VII, I still think (better) games like VI and IX deserve remakes way more, but it makes a lot of sense to remake the most popular game in the series instead.
Messofanego
Banned
I'll counter about two points:
1. Current generation of gamers at least to the game purchasing and playing demographic, is a majority among 30+ year olds. So these games coming back probably won't alienate the majority of gamers if we're going by the stats that who buys games.
2. Replayability. When you look at the stats of game completion being pretty low, I don't see a concern about replaying a game if it's not even being finished in the first stage. What are the stats for people playing DLCs? If it's a low percentage of all the people who played the base game, then again not a concern. In my opinion.
1. Current generation of gamers at least to the game purchasing and playing demographic, is a majority among 30+ year olds. So these games coming back probably won't alienate the majority of gamers if we're going by the stats that who buys games.
2. Replayability. When you look at the stats of game completion being pretty low, I don't see a concern about replaying a game if it's not even being finished in the first stage. What are the stats for people playing DLCs? If it's a low percentage of all the people who played the base game, then again not a concern. In my opinion.
I never understood the FFVII remake hype. The original is a good game, and it already exists, and has been kept alive pretty well through porting at this point. Why not divert these resources into making a FFXVI? Not to say I'm not interested in playing the remake, but it sits at the same level as Starfox Zero for me. (It seems essentially a retelling of the N64 game.)
Shenmue 3 is quite different. It's the next chapter in a story that was left unfinished. It's not nostalgia, it's looking to the future.
Shenmue 3 is quite different. It's the next chapter in a story that was left unfinished. It's not nostalgia, it's looking to the future.
Werewolf Jones
Member
Shenmue 3 is not nostalgia pandering, the second game lead to a set up for a third game and it just never happened.
FF: VII is totally nostalgia baby bait though. If the game is so good and timeless why does it need a remake? The majority of people who made FF VII what it is doesn't even work with Square anymore and the ones that do don't know a thing about quality control. "Remake" is the new make.
FF: VII is totally nostalgia baby bait though. If the game is so good and timeless why does it need a remake? The majority of people who made FF VII what it is doesn't even work with Square anymore and the ones that do don't know a thing about quality control. "Remake" is the new make.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
No shit Nostalgia is going to be a factor when a popular old game is being remade, nostalgia is a big part of the reason why FF7r is a viable product in the first place. Obviously some things are going to be different in a remake of a 20 year old game, but giving giving the middle finger 100% to "nostalgic" fans isn't a wise idea, imo. I mean, look at the DS remake of Lufia 2. The battle system was changed into some weird Ys clone with auto-leveling and all the characters got heavy redesigns, many of which ended up being completely unrecognizable. Guess how well it sold in every territory it released in?
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Thank you. This is the perfect post.
My sentiments exactly. He might as well added Doom 4 and Fallout 4 into the mix. Typical videogame journalism.