Because a lot of gamers have courted cynicism for so long that it's become the standard when approaching anything the industry does. In any other year during the previous console generation bashing E3 itself would go by without complaint. Now that we've had this ludicrous dream E3 where nearly everything that people begged for is finally being made (all that was missing was a Half-Life 3 announcement), the usual cynicism from the usual sources appears sounds a lot pettier because they come across as being unreasonable, like nothing would ever satisfy them.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
"Shenmue, Final Fantasy VII and why we shouldn't entirely give in to nostalgia"
- Thread starter oni-link
- Start date
Because a lot of gamers have courted cynicism for so long that it's become the standard when approaching anything the industry does. In any other year during the previous console generation bashing E3 itself would go by without complaint. Now that we've had this ludicrous dream E3 where nearly everything that people begged for is finally being made (all that was missing was a Half-Life 3 announcement), the usual cynicism from the usual sources appears sounds a lot pettier because they come across as being unreasonable, like nothing would ever satisfy them.
Well I criticised the article in the OP but I don't think it's saying "don't be excited" or "these announcements are a bad thing" it's saying lets be realistic, the games are old and they might have to change to fit todays standards or risk being clunky but pretty, either one of those might disappoint people who are excited (I don't know if I agree with that or not, personally)
My issue was more that it seems to imply anyone who likes these old games is blinded by nostalgia, and that really they're "not that good"
I'd agree with you that it's a net positive we're getting these games
Exactly. That's why the article is senseless, otherwise we might as well say every single game sequel is an issue. Every single one!
Why on earth medias want to bring nothing but negativity. Fucking hell. They are clueless.
I can't help but laugh at comments lambasting gamers who want remakes that stay faithful to the original work sorry, indulge in senseless nostalgia.
"If you want the same experience go play the original"? Why don't we do the opposite, and have you people clamouring for an updated experience play any of the dozen modern AAA games already available in this day and age. Why don't you let us have this one remake? Us the poor nostalgic fuckers who have lost entire genres and aesthetics to the mindless narrowing scope of the industry.
Melodrama aside, I'm not naive. There's no way SE will have the balls to keep some of the elements that were integral to the soul of the original game. The fixed camera angles (an art lost to time), the world map... Every melancholic scene will be replaced by a fucking cutscene. At least let us have a battle system where you control your whole party please, none of that FFXIII bullshit.
"If you want the same experience go play the original"? Why don't we do the opposite, and have you people clamouring for an updated experience play any of the dozen modern AAA games already available in this day and age. Why don't you let us have this one remake? Us the poor nostalgic fuckers who have lost entire genres and aesthetics to the mindless narrowing scope of the industry.
Melodrama aside, I'm not naive. There's no way SE will have the balls to keep some of the elements that were integral to the soul of the original game. The fixed camera angles (an art lost to time), the world map... Every melancholic scene will be replaced by a fucking cutscene. At least let us have a battle system where you control your whole party please, none of that FFXIII bullshit.
Acquiescence
Member
Well it's been 14 years since Shenmue 2 released and a lot of people haven't shut up about the series since, hence why we're finally getting a third game now.
So... yes?
DangerMouse
Member
Yup.
Why does it have to be nostalgia and not reverence?
When a new (hopefully good) Star Wars was announced people were more excited that they were getting more of the universe they love. Nostalgia plays a small part in that, but is certainly not the only part.
Likewise a new Shenmue is exciting because its got a lot of good will behind it. Final Fantasy VII is probably known by significantly more people than have played it. We are excited because we love videogames, not simply because we are nostalgic.
When a new (hopefully good) Star Wars was announced people were more excited that they were getting more of the universe they love. Nostalgia plays a small part in that, but is certainly not the only part.
Likewise a new Shenmue is exciting because its got a lot of good will behind it. Final Fantasy VII is probably known by significantly more people than have played it. We are excited because we love videogames, not simply because we are nostalgic.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
But Horizon and Dreams and RIGS and The Last Guardian were also shown at the same conference, along with returning favorite No Mans Sky. So while yes nostalgia was being pulled at with those two megatons they were by no means all that was shown. I'd argue Horizon was the best new ip revealed all E3.
SpaceHorror
Member
All of these debbie downer articles seem to be written by people who got really upset that so many people got really, really fucking excited about Shenmue III and the FF VII remake.
This is coming from someone who doesn't give two shits about the remake.
Bring on Shenmue III, though!
This is coming from someone who doesn't give two shits about the remake.
Bring on Shenmue III, though!
Cave Johnson
Member
What a terrible article. The entire basis was just circular reasoning, assumptions and design speculation. It's essentially "nostalgia-glasses" the article and why "you should see the way I see it" tone. Imagine that? What if we were to discard every artistic progression from the past only to accept the new and upcoming and revised products regardless of their quality? Should I stop listening to 80's music because you know, I'm heavily "rose-tinted"? Can I not appreciate books from the past?
People are allowed to like what they like and for a medium that allows us to have our avenues that is incredibly restrictive compared to literature, film and music the idea that we should forsake this because of "nostalgia" is precisely why the general overview treats gaming as just an over-glorified "gimmick". There's no respect to the medium. His examples of Skyrim, Batman and The Witcher, games that doesn't properly describe the diversity of our library but one that fits into the AAA standards out of his own self-congratulatory hype.
People are allowed to like what they like and for a medium that allows us to have our avenues that is incredibly restrictive compared to literature, film and music the idea that we should forsake this because of "nostalgia" is precisely why the general overview treats gaming as just an over-glorified "gimmick". There's no respect to the medium. His examples of Skyrim, Batman and The Witcher, games that doesn't properly describe the diversity of our library but one that fits into the AAA standards out of his own self-congratulatory hype.
Eh, it's not an unreasonable stance to take. The companies, work environments and people who made these previous games are not the same as they are now; regardless of how good their intentions are (particularly Yu, who I know has been so eager to conclude the Shenmue story) it's unrealistic to expect these games to fulfill everyone's dreams, or for archaic design ideas to not be critiqued by a harsher, more judgemental new generation of gamers. Especially here on NeoGAF, you just KNOW that people are going to swing to the other extreme, fill the forum with threads about these being the biggest disappointments of all time, no matter what. And that's not even taking into account any additions that ultimately end up tarnishing the final product, be it a shortage of funding or just boneheaded attempts to "modernise" the gameplay in a cynical ploy to appeal to more people than before. And let's not entertain the idea of potential retcons showing up.
I think it's perfectly fine to REALLY look forward to these games though, and the article itself even admits that. They're exciting, almost legendary game announcements, and for whatever happens to them, it's nice that developers are finally delivering the things gamers have been asking for for such a long time. With that in mind, I don't think it's giving in to nostalgia, so much as fulfilling demands of the consumers.
I think it's perfectly fine to REALLY look forward to these games though, and the article itself even admits that. They're exciting, almost legendary game announcements, and for whatever happens to them, it's nice that developers are finally delivering the things gamers have been asking for for such a long time. With that in mind, I don't think it's giving in to nostalgia, so much as fulfilling demands of the consumers.
When something popular happens, in any sector really, there are always people eager to be the voice of dissension - simply because it is an easy way to get attention and make you seem like a cool rebel.
"Oooh, this will let me raise my profile and let everyone see I am more sophisticated than the plebs with their common opinions".
"Oooh, this will let me raise my profile and let everyone see I am more sophisticated than the plebs with their common opinions".
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I think this depends on if nostalgia is the reason you wanted it or not. Of course, as a prfound hater of Shenmue, I wouldn't find Shenmue 3 a lot of fun, but assuming it would be Banjo-Threeie instead, I'm absolutely sure that I would love a well-made sequel and absolutely would not complain about a lack of openness of the world or even DLC (that's like the personification of the devil). One might argue the wish for Shenmue 3 or FFVII Remake (which really is odd to me, because you can already play FFVII, why are so many people demanding the opportunity to pay for the same game again? Such superficial people who care so much for graphics that they wish so hard for a visual update over a new game are difficult to judge in regards to nostalgia) is fuelled by nostalgia, but maybe it's just honest liking and valuing the originals high?
I thought it was a really well-written and well-reasoned opinion piece. Nothing to take personally.
I tried to play the original Shenmue and while I could appreciate the ambition found it clunky and dull. Maybe if I'd played it at the time I'd have had more of a connection to it.
I tried to play the original Shenmue and while I could appreciate the ambition found it clunky and dull. Maybe if I'd played it at the time I'd have had more of a connection to it.
Exactly. I want to continue the fucking story.
Gambit 1138
Banned
Companies need to yield to the desires of 80s & 90s kids because we spend the most on games. So get cracking on that super Mario 64 sequel Nintendo!
ShemhazaiX
Member
So now I can't be pre-order things OR be excited.
Sometimes I think the games press doesn't actually like games. :[
Sometimes I think the games press doesn't actually like games. :[
But enough about Giantbummer.
Sunnington
Banned
You do realize Suzuki plans on making making the series go 4-5 games at least? You're just going to get another cliffhanger at the end of 3.
I think the article makes some good points. I've never been enamored by either title, but I understand the point he's trying to make. For instance, Wasteland 2 is a really good game. It's a lot like Fallout 1-2. Two games I absolutely love. But I just can't play those types of games anymore.
Dr. Black Jack
Member
The nostalgia argument doesn't apply to Shenmue III AT ALL. People are excited that the story will finally advance after fourteen years waiting on a cliffhanger. It's not nostalgia if the project hasn't even been completed yet.
MaverickHunterAsh
Member
You have to know where you've been to know where you're going. I hope the remakes, remasters, and retro reimaginings never stop. Doesn't mean I don't want new games either, of course, but it's best to have every option available. No one should be left out.
"I don't like thing! Other people shouldn't like thing either, and if they like thing I don't like, I get angry!"
Come on, really? "Fuck anyone" who wants to play things you don't? Nice.
"I don't like thing! Other people shouldn't like thing either, and if they like thing I don't like, I get angry!"
Come on, really? "Fuck anyone" who wants to play things you don't? Nice.
Acquiescence
Member
Yes I know that, it doesn't change anything I say. When I talk about resolution I am referring to a completion of the series as a whole.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
That's what I got out of this. I'm old enough to make my own decisions on what I should be excited about.
Industrialist
Member
Depends. Does this writer's opinion stop you from being happy?
If no, then yes, you can.
Ding ding
I play much fewer games these days because most of them just ain't for me. I at least have stuff to catch up on with the wii u, but yeah, I have no problem playing old games remixed and or remastered.
I still find FFT to be the best srpg. It's still something i compare everything to, and whenever i see 'player phase' and 'enemy phase' I just shake my head and frown. Not that that's bad, I just prefer FFT's character turn-based way more.
Nightengale
Member
I didn't give in to nostalgia, I have faith in Nomura, Nojima & Kitase. Last I recall, none of them are washed up game developers/writers/producer still stuck in their 90s hey days.
As for Shenmue 3, frankly I could give a rat's ass if the "game" sucks. I want to see the continuation of Ryo Hazuki & Shenhua's story. It could be visual novel or a Telltale game for all that I care.
Thanks for making assumptions about me. though. /s
As for Shenmue 3, frankly I could give a rat's ass if the "game" sucks. I want to see the continuation of Ryo Hazuki & Shenhua's story. It could be visual novel or a Telltale game for all that I care.
Thanks for making assumptions about me. though. /s
MADGAME
Member
Although the author says "there's nothing wrong", the language they use regarding wallowing in quicksand defines their very perception of reminiscing as harrowing. How asinine. Reminiscence, the enjoyable recollection of past events, is innately a good thing. Claiming nostalgia gives us unrealistic expectations that will never be realized in (future) games is speculation at best, and shit journalism at the core.
Acquiescence
Member
If this guy really wants to harp on about nostalgia then he would do well to set his sights on Nintendo instead, who're way more guilty of over-relying on sequels and spin-offs of their age-old franchises than anybody else.
I didn't see that part until you mentioned it. Another muppet who thinks open-world automatically equals better. *sigh*
I didn't see that part until you mentioned it. Another muppet who thinks open-world automatically equals better. *sigh*
texhnolyze
Banned
I totally understand this, ever since the announcements from E3.
I set my expectation low for these games.
I set my expectation low for these games.
Nightengale
Member
I also love how the writer totally assumes incompetence, inability to (re)make a game that lives up to some of the standards of modern game design, and nothing more than nostalgia pandering for the hundreds of talented human beings who's going to spend the next 2-4 years of their lives working on these nostalgia machine.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
I agree. Some games are fine and can do it well, but this open world equals better is non sense. To me it actually made Watch Dogs a worse game. Embrace sandbox "levels"!
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Cynics gon sin.
plasmawave
Banned
People have been asking for FF7 remake and Shenmue 3 for over a decade.
Fuck these negativity.
Fuck these negativity.
Schrödinger's cat
Banned
I think this guy is putting the cart before the horse.
These two titles have been on people's wish-lists for years. The kickstarter for Shenmue 3 broke records.
These aren't examples of peddling nostalgia onto an ambivalent market - they are examples of a specific demand being met.
There is plenty of more appropriate nostalgia-fuelled material for the argument this article wants to convey. These two titles are very bad examples - if anything they are the exception to the rule.
But, just like those the article seeks to critique, the names of those games catch people's attention for a very good reason. And, to that end, the author is exploiting the same desire for nostalgia as those they damn.
Also: there's more than enough games for everyone's tastes. Don't want it? Don't buy it. Don't tell me what I should want.
These two titles have been on people's wish-lists for years. The kickstarter for Shenmue 3 broke records.
These aren't examples of peddling nostalgia onto an ambivalent market - they are examples of a specific demand being met.
There is plenty of more appropriate nostalgia-fuelled material for the argument this article wants to convey. These two titles are very bad examples - if anything they are the exception to the rule.
But, just like those the article seeks to critique, the names of those games catch people's attention for a very good reason. And, to that end, the author is exploiting the same desire for nostalgia as those they damn.
Also: there's more than enough games for everyone's tastes. Don't want it? Don't buy it. Don't tell me what I should want.
shhhh, you're drawing attention to the double standards of the industry! lol
Dragon1893
Member
These are obviously valid points but we'll just have to wait and see how they turn out.
A lot can wrong with these, but they also have the potential to be incredible.
A lot can wrong with these, but they also have the potential to be incredible.
plasmawave
Banned
Is Nintendo's game nostalgia tho?
They've been releasing their franchise consistently.
Are Final Fantasies and Metal Gears nostalgic because they are both decades old franchises?
IdreamofHIME
Member
Fuck Shenmue 3 and a sequel to one of my fav games.
Bring on Assassins Creed 10 and Call of Duty 11! Real games, none of that nostalgia bullshit. AC and COD never left me, They love me!
Bring on Assassins Creed 10 and Call of Duty 11! Real games, none of that nostalgia bullshit. AC and COD never left me, They love me!
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
It's two titles...Not like it's an epidemic.