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"Shenmue, Final Fantasy VII and why we shouldn't entirely give in to nostalgia"

Teletraan1

Banned
Debbie downer.

I just started replaying Final Fantasy VII the day after the announcement and every moment reconfirmed it as my favorite game ever made. I was having fun the entire time, even grabbing that swinging pole.

This guy can speak for himself.

I have played through the game at least 10 times. It is fantastic. I would rather replay that game than any modern RPG with so called modern game design. At least it lets me control my party's actions in battle.
 

Alucrid

Banned
So why is a sequel and remake of a game getting shit but the rare collection ain't said shit about. It's not like this is anything new, where was this article when the ps3 remaster was out. Or remake. Or any of the other fames that "preyed" in nostalgia. Also that whole "open world" praising is bullshit
 

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
Debbie downer.

I just started replaying Final Fantasy VII the day after the announcement and every moment reconfirmed it as my favorite game ever made. I was having fun the entire time, even grabbing that swinging pole.

This guy can speak for himself.

Amen.
 

jett

D-Member
The cynicism going around in the gaming press is a bit too much lately.

And even the most ardent of nostalgics may well be disappointed. After years of lavish open-world spectaculars like Skyrim, Grand Theft Auto 5 and Witcher 3, will Shenmue and Finally Fantasy VII feel a teeny bit... anemic? There’s little replayability with either of them, after all.

What is this guy even going on about here

I'd rather explore FFVII's world ten times over than re-playing GTAV. And I like TW3, I really do, but "exploring" the world for "secrets" or "loot" yields you nothing of worth. It's another open world filled with meaningless "points of interest" in the map.

They’re both linear, fixed stories with limited worlds to explore.

GTAV may be set in an "open world", but it's some of the most linear shit I can remember playing. Maybe the author of this article has conveninentely forgotten how most missions are either about driving from point A to point B, or have literal pop-up boxes telling you exactly what you need to do every step of the way to advance.

Oh my god.

The freedom.

It's too much.

Too much indeed.
 

ZeroX03

Banned
it’s important to remember that sequels to, and remakes of, legendary titles will never realistically be able to live up to our expectations.

Writer isn't wrong. The VII meltdowns are going to be out of this world. People can't agree upon whether they want the gameplay or story to change. Every directional choice is going to alienate some group of people. Throw in years of waiting and that's a concoction for some serious meltdowns. The fanbase's reaction to Stella alone was insane.

That's not even saying the game will be bad. It could be a great game but there's just no way it's living up to hype/nostalgia/dream-filled expectations. Not saying don't enjoy nostalgia either, just keep expectations realistic.
 

Theonik

Member
The cynicism going around in the gaming press is a bit too much lately.



What is this guy even going on about here

I'd rather explore FFVII's world ten times over than re-playing GTAV. And I like TW3, I really do, but "exploring" the world for "secrets" or "loot" yields you nothing of worth. It's another open world filled with meaningless "points of interest" in the map.
You could spend more time exploring Shenmue I than you would ever spend exploring in GTAV. It's really a strange article by someone that very likely has played neither game and watched a video on YouTube.
Edit: Because I have a bad case of being a hypocrite I am going to go ahead and do the exact same thing by posting a counter opinion piece. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5bSkggI5Ps
 
Yaaay ! No fun allowed ! :D
Seriously, what's wrong with people these days ? We can't have nice things ? Are we really complaining because publishers now listen ? Whining over 1 cult classic being brought back and the most anticipated sequel in the decade becoming a reality ?
 

oni-link

Member
Realistic expectations are fine. There is a lot of new stuff that gamers are eating up. Splatoon has sold over 1 million on WiiU and Horizon turned a lot of heads at E3. Sure there will always be sequels, and now remakes, but the people want what the people want.

Yeah I'm kind of surprised at how many people seem to think it's saying these games are a bad thing, it literally ends with:

I’m not saying this isn’t Super Christmas Time, I’m just saying we have to be realistic. The Final Fantasy VII remake trailer gave me goosebumps and I’m sure any Shenmue 3 promotional material will have the same effect, but to avoid heartbreak and disappointment we have to wait to see what these games will actually be.

If FF7R is exactly how it was in 1997 with better graphics, some people will be upset, if it has some parts/systems changed or removed, or new ones added, some people who love the original for those things will be upset

He is saying be excited by all means, but be realistic, which is a reasonable enough point

My issue was more to do with nostalgia being used as a way to dismiss older games, which I think is implied in the article

Do we all remember climbing up to the Shinra offices and having to grab that swinging pole? That wasn’t fun. It was an atmospheric, gripping and inspiring scene but it wasn’t fun.

Well I don't think the being forced to walk slowly while exposition is spoon fed to me is much fun either, and that is something we see a lot in modern games.

FF7 was a great game, and it still is a great game, those who like it, and those who want the Remake, are not entirely blinded by nostalgia, in fact a lot of the homogenisation we see in modern games is often detrimental to their design, with skill trees, exp and needless tickbox side quests shoehorned into games that don't need them
 

Haunted

Member
Anyone who has followed the industry noticed that we have been in a nostalgia wave for a while. Between the mass of games with retro aesthetics (both sprite-based and increasingly low poly 3D), a return to old genres, ask these HD rereleases and remasters... we've been in it for a while.

But this is the culmination. These are the titles everyone wanted, there's basically only HL3 left on the insane wishlist. We're fine now. We can look forward again. At least for my generation.


Fun fact, different titles will be nostalgic to a new generation of gamers, so the nostalgia train will never stop, just changing passengers. We've had recent threads in which people who were capable of typing coherent sentences said how big of an influence games they played as a kid were to them - the examples they used were Super Mario Galaxy and Assassin's Creed 2.


...

...
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
I replay FF7 every few years, its one of the few games that truely stands above the rest. The remake will be great, and even if its not the original will still exist. But so long as the remake keeps the overall bones of the original, it will be another amazing game.
 
"Nostalgia - it's delicate, but potent. Teddy told me that in Greek, 'nostalgia literally means 'the pain from an old wound.' It's a twinge in your heart far more powerful than memory alone. This device isn't a spaceship, it's a time machine. It goes backwards, and forwards... it takes us to a place where we ache to go again. It's not called the wheel, it's called the carousel. It let's us travel the way a child travels - around and around, and back home again, to a place where we know are loved."
 

Astral Dog

Member
FVII is fantastic news, not only for fans of the series but fans of jrpgs in general, why cant people be excited!?

That said, its still a remake coming like 4 years from now, its still an old game coming back, Final Fantasy is a brand that needs a strong new game to revitalize it and seems attention has diverged from FFXV to FFVII, the former still has to be an amazing game to get FF back imo. unfortunately it looks a bit questionable for now.

FF Versus was supposed to be the new FFVII
 
REmake didn't live up to anyone's expectations! What a fucking dud!

Let me go crush my FF2 remake for PSP because it does no justice to the original!

Maverick Hunter X is still clogging my toilet after I flushed it in a fit of rage!

/s

Fuck off, it's going to be fine.
 

Gusy

Member
Its not just like nintendo. Its a problem in the gamers mentality.
Think about the petition about gamers who voted AGAINST the new metroid game...

I think the Metroid case is different. Metroid is a 30 year old brand that grew on the concept of isolation, exploration and atmosphere. It was the "alien" equivalent for the Nintendo crowd. Now Nintendo is shoving this chibi-metroid thing that its also mixed with a sports game down our throats. They are blatantly destroying a brand 30 years in the making.

It's like the next 3d mario was a photo-realistic take on the 3d platformer, where you control bob hoskins in a post apocalyptic mushroom kingdom, same thing. I'm sure the next Metroid game is going to be a fun, well made game. That doesn't mean they should plaster the Metroid brand over it to "shut up" fans.
 
tumblr_m7l2rpwEBz1qdroduo1_250.gif
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
people are getting old, the future is scary and/or irritating and the only thing left to do is clasp at your own youth. what dazzled me then will surely dazzle me now? probably not, but the modern AAA gaming experience is 90% anticipation and 10% pay-off anyway.

when the nigh feral urge to replicate your happiest memories paves way to reality, the adrenaline of a drunken fuck with your old highschool sweetheart subsides and you're both left staring at the bloated bodies and rotten souls that you've both inherited through time, at least you'll know that your youth has truly abandoned you and you can conclusively move on with your miserable lives.
 

Resilient

Member
FF7 while easy, is good old fashioned JRPG FUN. If they improve the presentation and bring that world to life...man, it is going to look awesome in this gens hardware.

It doesn't NEED to reinvent itself because it is a timeless classic, and that isn't nostalgia. FF7, 8 and 9 all hold up so well because:

1. Their stories follow simple story mechanics. They aren't trying to be amazing; they're just telling their story.
2. Solid gameplay mechanics. They are unique in their own way. Materia junctioning is fun and straight forward. The progression feels natural.
3. Excellent music, and great art style.

Shenmue; I can't speak for it. But I don't understand how a sequel to a 15 year old game can be a bad thing, especially one with an unresolved story. But I guess it's fkn cool to bait people into clicking on troll articles these days. Eh. What can yo do?
 

Silvard

Member
What is it with the video game "press" constantly telling us what we should and shouldn't enjoy? What the hell is a "misleading concoction of joy"?
 

sublimit

Banned
I saw the title and immediately thought that it was going to be a Polygon article.I'm very surprised i was wrong.

I’m not saying this isn’t Super Christmas Time, I’m just saying we have to be realistic. The Final Fantasy VII remake trailer gave me goosebumps and I’m sure any Shenmue 3 promotional material (by this point even a graphically updated Ryu drinking a can of delicious soda) will have the same effect, but to avoid heartbreak and disappointment we have to wait to see what these games will actually be.

In other news the sun rised again today.This is just common sense...I'm pretty sure everyone has their expectations in check. We expect changes. We expect improvements.And we expect that some elements from the old games will have to be sacrificed. But as long as they keep the core essence of these games intact then i think we'll be ok.
 
I love a good thread/article that tells other gamers what they want, what their expectations are, and why they won't like a game that they want to play. Fantastic work.

I'll be buying FF7:Remake and Shenmue III on Day 1 and I'll have a blast. Can't wait.
 
I saw the title and immediately thought that it was going to be a Polygon article.I'm very surprised i was wrong.

Legit thought it was Kuchera at first.

Usually at least these kinds of hot takes have SOMETHING to pick at and discuss but so much of this is "no shit" territory:

By all means get excited, but bear in mind it takes more than nostalgia to make a fulfilling game.

Like thanks for reminding me that by comparison, two games released in 1997 and 1999 might be mechanically clunky as hell by today's standards. Yes, I know to temper my expectations, thanks. I'm not expecting the same games I played 15 years ago.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
I disagree with the notion that sequels and remakes of classics can "never" live up to our expectations. I had just as much fun with Ocarina of Time 3D and Majora's Mask 3D as I had with the originals, and I had way more fun with Wind Waker HD than I had with the original. Just to use a couple of examples of "remade" games from the same general era of FF7 and Shenmue.

As for straight "long after the fact" sequels to old series not living up, well, that's just plain idiotic as a blanket statement. Off the top of my head, Mother 3 is better than Mother 2 in the eyes of many, and I personally enjoyed the recent Donkey Kong Country games more than the original trilogy. Metroid Prime is another example of a sequel coming out way after the last game in a beloved series, and more than "living up to expectations."
 
In all fairness, you shouldn't entirely give into ANYTHING. I mean, there's just as much risk putting your faith in something new as there is in nostalgia, because both require you to invest interest into something to the point where you have a certain expectation to how that thing will be like. You don't just go into a new game blind. There's usually a reason why you WANT to buy a new game. Either you see the commercial/trailer and it interests you, year read about it in previews and reviews and you get turned on to the experience, but anyway you look at it, there HAS to be some interest and investment to catch you enough that you are willing to shell over the movie to buy it. The chances that the game will live up to your expectations or not depends on YOUR experience when playing it, but still, prior, your faith in it is nothing more than just that. Everything you see and read could be giving you signals that it's going to be an epic game, and then you play it and it's a let down.

Generally, I say "Oh well." to this sort of situation(regarding expectations and disappointment). There's an unhealthy kind of "padding" you see nowadays where people try to condition others to avoid disappointment. Why? Disappointment is a part of life. You going to be disappointed regardless. Something in your life will disappoint you, and your goal is to rise above it and carry on. I hate the whole, "keep your expectations in check/if you don't care too deeply, you can't be hurt" kind of mentality. If anything, it's just as bad as people who put TOO much faith and expectation into something(though if they are still able to rebound after disappointment, you can have as much expectation as you want). It's basically like saying, "Kill your emotions, and you'll never feel sadness!". It's the cheapo way out. No, feel free to expression your expectations and in every account you are let down, don't let disappointment keep you down, but get up and keep on going.

I also find the whole "nostalgia's a bad thing" as being tiresome. If you only live in the past, it IS bad, but the same can be said for those who ONLY live in the moment(the present) or only live on dreams(the future). If you only live in the past, you are blind to what's going on around you now and the future. If you only live in the present, you ignore the value of the past and have no tomorrow. If you live in the future, you are so caught up with "what could be", you don't take the measures of making that possible in the here and now. You have to be a person that exists in three periods(always acknowledging the past and it's value, making smart choices in the present and never stopping to think about what the future holds), which I think a LOT of us are.
 

Elandyll

Banned
We're getting both remakes/ sequels (instead of just ports) of great games AND new experiences (including but not limited to VR), so why can't we celebrate a great E3?
 

jusufin

Member
people are getting old, the future is scary and/or irritating and the only thing left to do is clasp at your own youth. what dazzled me then will surely dazzle me now? probably not, but the modern AAA gaming experience is 90% anticipation and 10% pay-off anyway.

when the nigh feral urge to replicate your happiest memories paves way to reality, the adrenaline of a drunken fuck with your old highschool sweetheart subsides and you're both left staring at the bloated bodies and rotten souls that you've both inherited through time, at least you'll know that your youth has truly abandoned you and you can conclusively move on with your miserable lives.

Yeah!.....or it could just be that people want to see a conclusion to a story that captivated them in thier youth, but yours is good too, lol.
 

kinoki

Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
Jurassic World, Mad Max: Fury Road, The Avengers, Terminator, Paddington, heck. Most people want to see the things they know. "B-b-but it wasn't always like this...", I hear you cry. People like nostalgia. Tribute bands, theme restaurants and floppy disc icons for saving in Office. This had been going on since we had culture to begin with. We like to remember. We like that feeling. Look at a local theater and see what they're playing. Chances are it's a classic in a new direction or a faithful adaption. Remaster and remake. Why should there be anything wrong with this when it comes to gaming?
 

Dremark

Banned
Fuck anyone who wants to play the same game with slight graphical upgrades. If they introduce a new system, so be it (as long as it's good). It's a remake, not a remaster.

What a civil way of presenting your argument.

If the game is going to be fundamentally changed why not just make a new game? Honestly using the shell of a old game and changing it's story and game play seems even more regressive than a remaster.
 

Neff

Member
This is a poorly-considered article. But there will be changes, and there should be changes. Not to placate any purported changes in player expectations or gaming zeitgeist, but to offer something new, and nurture developmental creativity and enthusiasm, since I'd imagine they wouldn't be too excited about recreating the exact same game with prettier visuals.

Also the climb to Shinra HQ is goddamn awesome in any era, so they can fuck right off with that.
 

ShirAhava

Plays with kids toys, in the adult gaming world
Remakes are all I have to look forward to....this medium has been creatively bankrupt for a while now...I feel like 97% of the types of games I loved..those 'middle' games aren't being made anymore....I hate most indie games...I hate most AAA games....Nostalga is my 'genre' hopefully VR delivers because things are lame as hell right now. (I understand for a different type of gamer 2015 might be some type of golden age...I'm happy for you!)
 

Peltz

Member
Why is it considered to just be "nostalgia"? Timeless games can remain timeless even if they have dated mechanics.

Shenmue III also will not be a remake... sooo.... I'm not sure why it's being thrown under the bus.
 

ironcreed

Banned
As long as great new games keep getting pumped out, I have absolutely no problem with some remakes of great games or the reviving of a long dead series. We can and do have both, as it is not like we have to choose between one or the other. This does not pose some kind of a threat.
 

TheXbox

Member
What the hell is wrong with Shenmue 3? It's an incomplete story, it's not just about nostalgia. Let these poor fans get some fucking closure.
 

ScOULaris

Member
While I agree that full-scale remakes usually end up being worse than the original (Twin Snakes, ahem), I think it has been long enough that revisiting a classic like FF7 is certainly worth a shot. It'll be interesting to see a more modern take on it, and the original will always be there for diehard fans if they prefer it.

I get where the author of this article is coming from, but I don't think either of the projects he chose to single out are going to be unapproachable or anything. They will be updated to modern standards while (hopefully) retaining some of what made the older games special.

Edit: Also, REmake proved that PS1-era classics can be remade and handily surpass their source material. I doubt that'll happen with FF7, though. It's simply too big for this era of game development. So much will have to be changed and/or cut.
 

Zedox

Member
I shouldn't give into the nostalgia of continuing a story (Shenmue) that ended in a cliffhanger because of how the game played back in the day? I think that some people need to get off of their high horse and understand that these games are made because the FANS want it. Yes, there will be new blood that probably outnumber them and don't like that gameplay, it doesn't matter. Fan service (not that kind) is what these games represent. Doing things because the fans want it, the fans have asked for, for years. Yes, we should give into nostalgia because it is what we have been clamoring for.

Also, Shenmue isn't really for nostalgia, that's more FFVII. Shenmue is about continuing something and also it was based in the past, the whole game is based on nostalgia on how one lived in Japan/China in the 1980s and just having a story around it.

Dear Media,

Plz.

-Zedox
 

Dremark

Banned
I think the Metroid case is different. Metroid is a 30 year old brand that grew on the concept of isolation, exploration and atmosphere. It was the "alien" equivalent for the Nintendo crowd. Now Nintendo is shoving this chibi-metroid thing that its also mixed with a sports game down our throats. They are blatantly destroying a brand 30 years in the making.

People said the previous game in the series, which was a mainline entry headed by the guy who directed Super Metroid and worked on all the classic entries also destroyed the series.

In all seriousness this new game is a spin off, it's not a new direction for the series, it's a side game which has some hooks to the main series but is primarily it's own thing. I can understand why people might not want to buy the game but I really don't understand why it's viewed as such an offensive thing.

So why is a sequel and remake of a game getting shit but the rare collection ain't said shit about.

Because Battletoads. You can't be anti-Battletoads, it's just not possible.

We're getting both remakes/ sequels (instead of just ports) of great games AND new experiences (including but not limited to VR), so why can't we celebrate a great E3?

This is how I look at it. There is a huge gaming market with room for all types of different experiences. I can understand if your niche isn't getting filled, you might be unhappy about that, but the whole stop liking what I don't like sort of arguments make no sense to me.

We have a broad diverse market, if your bread isn't getting buttered by all means speak up, but why get mad if the guy next to you is eating wheat when you prefer rye?
 
The (minor) backlash against these announcements is hilarious. If you don't care about shenmue, then this doesn't affect you. But don't pretend like it's somehow not a great thing that we're getting a conclusion to a story and game that we as fans all loved, that remains to this day a great game to play (for fans) and that was cruelly cut short of life because of its focused and highly specific appeal.

Shenmue 3 should not be thought of as a mass market title - it does not and will not have that level of appeal, Suzuki is too specific in his tastes. But don't tell fans who've waited 15 years that this is not a great thing.

But why would I get in the way of one of these "contributors" airing their grievances on what are actually non controversial issues in the interest of clicks? By all means, click away.
 
My favorite of all time is Ocarina and I can't even stand playinh the remaster. I preffer those memory of greatness to be just memories, replaying the game isn't fun (I played it many times years ago).
Glad I haven't played FF7 or any Shenmue yet, so it will be fresh experiences to me.
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
Agree with all of this, I don't want Microsoft and Sony becoming primarily nostalgia-peddlers to ageing fans like Nintendo.

Yep. Shenmue really wasn't that great. Unless you just loooove walking around "interacting" with stuff by simply saying "I see" a thousand times.
 
Why is it considered to just be "nostalgia"? Timeless games can remain timeless even if they have dated mechanics.

Shenmue III also will not be a remake... sooo.... I'm not sure why it's being thrown under the bus.

Only in videogames is the word "nostalgia" used as a derogatory manner. Music, art, literature and movies somehow seems to be exempt from this particular term - rather they are embraced, a sign of history as well as for education. This industry, on the other hand has been infected by "gamers" like these.
 
Agree with all of this, I don't want Microsoft and Sony becoming primarily nostalgia-peddlers to ageing fans like Nintendo.

Cause we have absolutely no new games this gen right? EVERYTHING is a remaster!!!!

Come on people with the over dramatic nonsense.

Just this year I played Bloodborne, Destiny, The Order, Driveclub and they announce Horizon, Dreams. I'll get the UC collection, the new UC4, Darksouls 3, the FF7 remake, Rachet Remake, and Shemue 3 ( which is actually a sequel not remake). As a gamer I want as much choice as possible.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
There is at this point nearly a downright prejudice against anything that can be reasoned "nostalgic". Seems based in this misguided attitude that nostalgia is an inherently negative thing, and that people are regressive if they like something older than 2 years and the last cycle of fresh shaders.

Gaming, by being based around a technology that rapidly evolves, has always encouraged a tremendous degree of neophilia among its fans. As the history of gaming grows longer though, more classic games will accumulate. Cycles will emerge. People will be forced to realize that just like every other medium, there are lasting ideas that always come back around. Gaming is also unique from other mediums in that its rapid technical progression means older works can be legitimately updated in meaningful ways.

This makes it more significant that a game like Final Fantasy VII gets a proper remake; there's much more to it than just performing a fresh scan of a classic film and releasing it on blu-ray.

Only in videogames is the word "nostalgia" used as a derogatory manner. Music, art, literature and movies somehow seems to be exempt from this particular term - rather they are embraced, a sign of history as well as for education. This industry, on the other hand has been infected by "gamers" like these.

I sometimes think the logistics of game consoles have helped create contempt for the past and an ignorance of it among people who play games. It has been necessary for the industry to promote abandoning previous generations of games in order to sell shiny new consoles that are not compatible with older titles. So the concept that every few years every prior game becomes shit and every new game represents a glorious and superior future is deeply entrenched in the culture and psychology of gamers. It's marketing. Only as gaming history has accumulated has the industry started to see value in re-releasing older games or propping up the past, though it still has to frame it in kitsch terms like "retro" to market it.

The PC world seems to have encouraged much more continuity among its gaming audience, since software libraries don't instantly stop working every few years. The existence of stuff like GOG also shows how willing that audience is to embrace the fullness of the medium, and not merely the latest distraction with a fresh look.
 

redcrayon

Member
There is at this point nearly a downright prejudice against anything that can be reasoned "nostalgic". Seems based in this misguided attitude that nostalgia is an inherently negative thing, and that people are regressive if they like something older than 2 years and the last cycle of fresh shaders.

Gaming, by being based around a technology that rapidly evolves, has always encouraged a tremendous degree of neophilia among its fans. As the history of gaming grows longer though, more classic games will accumulate. Cycles will emerge. People will be forced to realize that just like every other medium, there are lasting ideas that always come back around. Gaming is also unique from other mediums in that its rapid technical progression means older works can be legitimately updated in meaningful ways.

This makes it more significant that a game like Final Fantasy VII gets a proper remake; there's much more to it than just performing a fresh scan of a classic film and releasing it on blu-ray.

Yeah. It's a completely misguided opening to the article too. How have the 'nostalgics' (if that's what anyone who has the temerity to still enjoy a game 15 years later) 'won'? A pair of much-requested projects launched, one of which on kickstarter and being funded by the fans, out of the hundreds of games at E3. Nostalgia, if that's what it is, is a drop in the ocean compared to the new projects on the latest machines. If anything, they made a refreshing complement to the latest AAA games being talked about there.

Of all the things that could possibly be the defining message from E3, 'the nostalgics have won' is both untrue and strangely combative. Gaming isn't a fight between old games and new games and their respective fans.

The nostalgics have won. That was the defining message of this year’s E3 expo in Los Angeles.

Fans have been demanding Shenmue 3 for over a decade, while a Final Fantasy VII remake has been the stuff of spiky haired dreams since Square Enix started obsessively mining the series for spin-offs, reboots and sequels to sequels many years ago.
 
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