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Shin Megami Tensei Community Thread: Be Your True Demon

Capra

Member
The hard (or annoying, if you play it safe) part is getting to that point.
Until you have a varied roaster and a lot of different skills (which takes time to get), you're a sitting duck and forced to play ultra defensive.
You may also be quite a bit overleveled if you're already lvl 11 at that point iirc ( I was lv 12-13 against Minotaur).



IMO, he's not a "git gud" moment, he's a "git lucky" moment, sadly.
But yeah, once you're past him and maybe the boss after him, you're done with any kind of challenge for quite a long time.

I was actually at level 9 when I fought her and got to 10 once I won. The additional level to get to 11 is the only thing keeping me from fusing Fortuna right away. I am taking my time to negotiate whenever possible, since I seem to be one of those weird people who actually likes that, and to fuse so it's definitely possible I was fighting more battles than most people by that point. The first hour or so was really intimidating and I did end up dying a lot, but I took that mainly as a sign I needed to get more demons.

I may have also lucked out in managing to fuse a full party of demons with agi, since a lot of the more overpowering encounters at this stage (wendigo, zombie horde, Alraune, etc.) seem to be weak to that.

Edit: Just got to Tokyo. Yeah, Minotaur was absolute BS since half the time just letting him take one round could lead to a spiral of criticals no matter how prepared you were. I ended up loading my party with bufu-users and buffing evasion while extending my turn for as long as possible. Even then, it took a few tries just because letting him have one could mean instant death.
 

Weiss

Banned
Replaying Nocturne for the first time in four years and actually doing the TDE.

God, this game is amazing. Even the blurb on the back of the case calling it the "RPG for the GTA generation" is rad.
 

Shiina

Member
How hard is Nocturne on Hard difficulty? Is it a bad idea for a first time playthrough?

I went with hard on my first playthrough and it was pretty rough at times but I like my games difficult so I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. The beginning is pretty stupid as it's a complete RNG-fest until you get your first demon but after that it becomes more manageable.
 

jonjonaug

Member
How hard is Nocturne on Hard difficulty? Is it a bad idea for a first time playthrough?

Here's the differences in hard mode.

1. The "escape" command is nearly useless.
2. Items cost 3x more (demon summoning prices are still the same).
3. Enemy stats, damage, and crit rate are all higher. You'll be taking almost twice as much damage.
4. Damage floor and walking around while poisoned deals 3x damage.
5. Instant kill magic will work on your party more frequently.
 

Weiss

Banned
So I've reached the end of the Fourth Kalpa.


Hijiri is totally Aleph, right? What is even the point to that scene if he isn't? He looks like an older Aleph. He has a purple hat like Aleph's headgear. He's being punished for an ultimate sin, like how HVH threatened Aleph at the end of the Neutral path
 

cj_iwakura

Member
So I've reached the end of the Fourth Kalpa.


Hijiri is totally Aleph, right? What is even the point to that scene if he isn't? He looks like an older Aleph. He has a purple hat like Aleph's headgear. He's being punished for an ultimate sin, like how HVH threatened Aleph at the end of the Neutral path

That's the popular theory.
 
i feel like im so bad at DeSu OC and I'm barely on day 1. Is grinding necessary in this game? I feel like it is. Some of the missions are kinda easy but then some get really and i cant really do anything much with demons at this point
 

jonjonaug

Member
i feel like im so bad at DeSu OC and I'm barely on day 1. Is grinding necessary in this game? I feel like it is. Some of the missions are kinda easy but then some get really and i cant really do anything much with demons at this point

It's possible to beat the game without grinding, but it's recommended to use free battles to get cash and crack skills on your first playthrough.
 

daevious

Member
So I've reached the end of the Fourth Kalpa.


Hijiri is totally Aleph, right? What is even the point to that scene if he isn't? He looks like an older Aleph. He has a purple hat like Aleph's headgear. He's being punished for an ultimate sin, like how HVH threatened Aleph at the end of the Neutral path



cjiwakura said:
That's the popular theory.

The person who originally put forward that theory has since discredited the entire thing.
 

Battlechili

Banned
Was the Durarara!! DLC for Devil Survivor 2: Record Breaker ever brought to America? Or did localization issues prevent that? I was interested in getting Record Breaker but that question has always been lingering on my mind.
 

Weiss

Banned
HAHA SCREW YOU BAAL AVATAR. GUESS WHO DIDN'T EVEN GET TO SUMMON HER HELPERS CAUSE SHE WAS TOO BUSY EATING FACE LASERS.

I recall hearing one of the devs laugh about the theory, maybe that's why. But they love to screw with people, so who knows.

The person who originally put forward that theory has since discredited the entire thing.

It just makes too much sense to me for it not to be canon.

EDIT: Alright, final boss time with Focus+Pierce, Mitama amped Metatron, Shiva and Vishnu.

I'm so glad I'm on NG+. I could not stomach grinding another ten levels to actually be able to use these demons.

EDIT2: AND DONE! God the TDE was so friggin cool. Genuinely one of the best endings I've ever seen in any game.
 

Jisgsaw

Member
EDIT2: AND DONE! God the TDE was so friggin cool. Genuinely one of the best endings I've ever seen in any game.

Agreed, though for me it calls for a sequel we'll never get :-(

I found the boss a bit easy for all the talk it got on the internet though. Then again, I was on NG+ with the extra press turn, must have helped.
 

Weiss

Banned
Agreed, though for me it calls for a sequel we'll never get :-(

I found the boss a bit easy for all the talk it got on the internet though. Then again, I was on NG+ with the extra press turn, must have helped.

I always thought Strange Journey lined up well with Nocturne, especially since SJ was supposed to be Shin Megami Tensei 4.

Law is usually the instigator of the plot with Chaos reacting to it. In Strange Journey, the Chaos faction causes the Schwartzvelt to materialize with the Law faction working behind the scenes.

YHVH is totally missing from the main plot with Demiurge all but stated to be a fraction of him.

Mara directly references her appearance as a Slime in Nocturne.

Lucifer has nothing to do with the plot, with Mem Aleph leading the Chaos faction while Lucifer just kind of hangs back and makes cryptic hints.

So how it went for me was that
after the Demi-Fiend tore YHVH a new asshole the Chaos faction started calling the shots. Lucifer just kind of buggers off since his immortal enemy has been defeated, and the Law faction has to work really hard to try and get back on top of things.
It worked for me, but given the actual SMT4, I doubt it's true.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
I always thought Strange Journey lined up well with Nocturne, especially since SJ was supposed to be Shin Megami Tensei 4.

Law is usually the instigator of the plot with Chaos reacting to it. In Strange Journey, the Chaos faction causes the Schwartzvelt to materialize with the Law faction working behind the scenes.

YHVH is totally missing from the main plot with Demiurge all but stated to be a fraction of him.

Mara directly references her appearance as a Slime in Nocturne.

Lucifer has nothing to do with the plot, with Mem Aleph leading the Chaos faction while Lucifer just kind of hangs back and makes cryptic hints.

So how it went for me was that
after the Demi-Fiend tore YHVH a new asshole the Chaos faction started calling the shots. Lucifer just kind of buggers off since his immortal enemy has been defeated, and the Law faction has to work really hard to try and get back on top of things.
It worked for me, but given the actual SMT4, I doubt it's true.
Only that wasn't YHVH in Nocturne. Kagutsuchi is just a facet, hence Lucy wanting to march on the 'true enemy'.
 

Labadal

Member
Don't know where to post this. Playing Persona 4 (Golden) for the first time and I have a feeling that I won't even be close to max all links or whatever they are called. I also have no idea what I am doing when fusing Personas. I just go with what looks cool.
 
Don't know where to post this. Playing Persona 4 (Golden) for the first time and I have a feeling that I won't even be close to max all links or whatever they are called. I also have no idea what I am doing when fusing Personas. I just go with what looks cool.

This is the SMT thread, there's a Persona OT and it's far more active.

There's essentially zero chance you can max all s-links blind. The game is easy enough so just slapping together the personas you like works. That's what most people do anyway.
 
I always suspected SMTIV had some identity problems, but Eirikr just reamed it in his write-up on the game here:

http://eirikrjs.blogspot.com/2015/09/SMT-identity-crisis-final.html

Massive spoilers for every single aspect of IV, and it's eerie how spot-on the criticisms are. I enjoyed IV, but it definitely was missing something, and I think he nailed what it was.

There's a very plausible fear that the charm and edge of SMT is going to be compromised in the face of an increasingly dangerous industry where certain demographics are going to be a top priority. This sentiment wasn't helped by what the SMT/FE joint project turned out to be. I'm not bitter that Persona has overtaken SMT as the dominant franchise but I am afraid of what SMT might have to be to continue as a franchise or that it could potentially be shelved altogether.
 

NeonZ

Member
I always suspected SMTIV had some identity problems, but Eirikr just reamed it in his write-up on the game here:

http://eirikrjs.blogspot.com/2015/09/SMT-identity-crisis-final.html

Massive spoilers for every single aspect of IV, and it's eerie how spot-on the criticisms are. I enjoyed IV, but it definitely was missing something, and I think he nailed what it was.

I agree with some of his criticisms, but, at the same time, that article seems fairly biased too, like when he praises Nocturne's use of the demon imagery in comparison to SMTIV even though most demons in that game are basically just set pieces that could be replaced by any other design, with only a few actually following their mythological roles. Even though the Maniax additions are stronger in that sense, they still had some rather odd elements like the 4 Riders working for Lucifer. He also criticizes the "Goddess of Tokyo" for being an extremely important fictional demon, while completely ignoring "Mem Aleph" which is a fictional representation of Mother Goddesses in general.

His criticism of human society still going on in a demon infested land also seems kind of odd - he mentions that in SMT1, the npcs were mostly Messians or Gaian's, but that's really not true. You can meet many random people before the Cathedral, with underground refuges around Tokyo similar to the ones from SMTIV, where you can meet random people - and there are even open business and cafes too.

His complaints about Jonathan's and Walter's characters also are kind of odd, especially when questioning their initial motivation (before the alignment shift). It sounds like because they had no personal connection to any of the enemies, the author considers their motivations irrelevant, which is just odd. And then he goes completely silent about one of the biggest issues with Walter's character (his lack of reaction and acknowledgment of the end of Mikado's caste system with the angel's return). It's also odd that he criticizes them for being "simplified caricatures" of alignment heroes, but also criticizes them when they didn't act like expected from their alignment.

I agree with all criticism of the neutral and nationalism in SMTIV though. In fact, I'd also add that the nationalist theme is obviously tied to the alignment war this time. Stephen tells the player to resurrect Tokyo's Goddess. That Goddess, the spirit of Japan's biggest city, alongside Masakado, its protector deity, then go on to defeat the foreign Chaos and Law demons and restore Tokyo to what it should be. They even made the destruction of Japanese culture one of the goals of the law faction. By the end of the game, in the law route, you can talk to some npcs in Mikado and hear about how the angels ordered them to translate all the "mystic script" (old Japanese characters) into their modern tongue while digitalizing the texts, but at the same time they should eliminate the originals - leading to a scenario where not only Tokyo is destroyed, but also any remaining legacy from Japan is erased. That nationalist theme is also likely why the hero actually turns out to be the reincarnation of the hero who created the ceiling on Tokyo - basically making it so Tokyo is the hero's true home in a way. I think it's obvious that the nationalism was an actual intended theme, not just a bunch of unrelated design choices that happened to go in that direction.

The underlying nationalist theme going on in SMTIV actually gives me a big appreciation for the law ending, where it's basically entirely rejected and Tokyo alongside any influence from it are completely destroyed - Although that obviously wasn't the motivation of the developers. Law's intentions to destroy Japanese culture completely, down to the writing method, only exists as yet another reason to dislike them. If Gotou appeared in SMT4, he'd likely be considered a neutral hero, without having his character changed at all.
 

BlackJace

Member
I love Nocturne as much as anyone else, but I can't help but feel as though it's one of those lionized titles that no other successive one can ever surpass in the eyes of fans.

It seems like its hard to convince others that Nocturne has its flaws as well and maybe isn't the best SMT game in place of another (if that's your opinion)

Soul Hackers or IV might be my favorite, followed by Nocturne
 
Eirikr's doing YHWH's work there. Perhaps it's threadworthy?

There's a very plausible fear that the charm and edge of SMT is going to be compromised in the face of an increasingly dangerous industry where certain demographics are going to be a top priority. This sentiment wasn't helped by what the SMT/FE joint project turned out to be. I'm not bitter that Persona has overtaken SMT as the dominant franchise but I am afraid of what SMT might have to be to continue as a franchise or that it could potentially be shelved altogether.

There is no fear here, only pattern recognition.

Given how Japan takes to darkness and maturity with games like Witcher and Yakuza, and how SMTxFE and various other series once on their own in tone going a route that at best is tip-toeing to avoid upsetting Otaku sensibilities I'm seeing an echo chamber that formed around that and reinforcing it with every sea change like this. With backlash at this being pointed out not helping matters in the slightest, either.

This doesn't even begin to showcase the economic realities or difficulty in providing a diverse portfolio of titles to please a variety of people worldwide, either.

I love Nocturne as much as anyone else, but I can't help but feel as though it's one of those lionized titles that no other successive one can ever surpass in the eyes of fans.

It seems like its hard to convince others that Nocturne has its flaws as well and maybe isn't the best SMT game in place of another (if that's your opinion)

Soul Hackers or IV might be my favorite, followed by Nocturne

That game ages like fine wine. I've done the math.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
I love Nocturne as much as anyone else, but I can't help but feel as though it's one of those lionized titles that no other successive one can ever surpass in the eyes of fans.

It seems like its hard to convince others that Nocturne has its flaws as well and maybe isn't the best SMT game in place of another (if that's your opinion)

Soul Hackers or IV might be my favorite, followed by Nocturne

I just can't think of a single external area in IV that took my breath away. Nocturne is full of them.
 

BlackJace

Member
I just can't think of a single external area in IV that took my breath away. Nocturne is full of them.

Of course, of course, to each his own.
The journey down into Naruku and decending onto Tokyo like angels from heaven was one of my favorite gaming moments ever
That's just what I wanted to get off my chest about Nocturne (not that it was anything big, anyway).

I'm just happy this series has never really hit a low low.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Of course, of course, to each his own.
The journey down into Naruku and decending into Tokyo literally like angels from heaven was one of my favorite gaming moments ever
That's just what I wanted to get off my chest about Nocturne (not that it was anything big, anyway).

I'm just happy this series has never really hit a low low.

Well that event is awesome, yeah, but I mean like, the world design. Like taking a look around the Tower of Kagutsuchi or the inverted pyramids near the end. Just, breathtaking stuff.
 
I always suspected SMTIV had some identity problems, but Eirikr just reamed it in his write-up on the game here:

http://eirikrjs.blogspot.com/2015/09/SMT-identity-crisis-final.html

Massive spoilers for every single aspect of IV, and it's eerie how spot-on the criticisms are. I enjoyed IV, but it definitely was missing something, and I think he nailed what it was.

Oh yeah, I should mention, I did read the third part of this and generally agreed with it. I really like SMTIV and I'm very happy we got it, but it does seem ideologically scattered. It lacks a singular, unifying direction, for sure.

SMTIV is in my list of favourite RPGs, but it's the first one that'll be dropped off when something better comes along.
Persona 5?
 

BlackJace

Member
Well that event is awesome, yeah, but I mean like, the world design. Like taking a look around the Tower of Kagutsuchi or the inverted pyramids near the end. Just, breathtaking stuff.

Nocturne was the biggest departure from the dark urbanism of the series, yes, and the game's vividly horrific (yet beautiful at the same time) architecture was quite amazing.

Still, I feel like the world design of IV painted a wonderfully grounded picture of the divine (Mikado), and the infernal (Tokyo).
They succeeded in making Tokyo resemble Hell itself. The placcid, clear waters of Mikado and its blue skies above contrasting with the broken and tired scab of Tokyo and its endless fires worked so well.

But, I think we're just arguing purely from preference/opinion I guess.
 

randomkid

Member
I like to lurk Parish's forum so I was already familiar with the arguments but it's nice to see Eirikr lay his case out in one place. I've found that the prevailing opinion among fans of SMT4 is "this game has so many problems but i still love it tho?" which is also where I'm at. My working hypothesis is that it all comes down to the music.

Eirikr's doing YHWH's work there. Perhaps it's threadworthy?

I'm curious to see what others think too yeah. There's a lot in there that absolutely gets nailed, even though I'm less fond of Strange Journey than he is (I love it but the game always felt more Etrian than SMT to me) and think the liveliness of SMT4's atmosphere is absolutely in line with what you get in MT2 and SMT2.
 
I want Nocturne to be clearly surpassed. A game better than my favorite game? Count me right in. It just hasn't happened yet and, at the current rate, I don't expect it to happen.
 

NeonZ

Member
Personally, I didn't like the direction Nocturne went at all. It'd be fine for a spin off since many people obviously like it, but I just couldn't look at it as a successor to SMTI and II. SMTIV has many design decisions that bother me, but in general it seems closer to what I want out of a modern SMT game.

I like to lurk Parish's forum so I was already familiar with the arguments but it's nice to see Eirikr lay his case out in one place. I've found that the prevailing opinion among fans of SMT4 is "this game has so many problems but i still love it tho?" which is also where I'm at. My working hypothesis is that it all comes down to the music.

I'm not fond of SMTIV's music. The most memorable tunes seem to basically be "Hey, this is a remix of something I've heard before!"
 

Jisgsaw

Member
I love Nocturne as much as anyone else, but I can't help but feel as though it's one of those lionized titles that no other successive one can ever surpass in the eyes of fans.

It seems like its hard to convince others that Nocturne has its flaws as well and maybe isn't the best SMT game in place of another (if that's your opinion)

Soul Hackers or IV might be my favorite, followed by Nocturne

I love Nocturne to death, but its flaws are so jarring I can't believe somebody wouldn't acknowledge them.

Personally, I didn't like the direction Nocturne went at all. It'd be fine for a spin off since many people obviously like it, but I just couldn't look at it as a successor to SMTI and II.

That may have something to do with the fact that Nocturne was the first SMT for a lot of fans in the west, so we'd rather expect something in its vein.

I like to lurk Parish's forum so I was already familiar with the arguments but it's nice to see Eirikr lay his case out in one place. I've found that the prevailing opinion among fans of SMT4 is "this game has so many problems but i still love it tho?" which is also where I'm at. My working hypothesis is that it all comes down to the music.

For me it's rather that they made the transition to the handheld format very well, and the game (except for the navigation) is very pleasant to play and nice to look at (well, at least as long as there is no archangel/lucifer on the screen).
 

Teknoman

Member
So SMT1 iOS: Landscape mode or no? I cant decide the best way to play it. Landscape gives you more of a drawn into the game feel, but portrait seems like the resolution it was meant to be played.
 
I don't think Nocturne is the best SMT. In terms of dungeon crawlers, I found Strange Journey to be equally good and in terms of overall quality, I prefer Persona 3 and 4. Also, Devil Survivor: Overclocked and Devil Summoner 2 were just as fun to me.

SMT is pretty fucking good lol
 

cj_iwakura

Member
So SMT1 iOS: Landscape mode or no? I cant decide the best way to play it. Landscape gives you more of a drawn into the game feel, but portrait seems like the resolution it was meant to be played.

Landscape takes up the whole screen? I use that, if only because I can't stand the tiny controls on the other one.
 

Weiss

Banned
So I got the first volume of the Devil Survivor manga, and it's actually really good. It has a stronger horror vibe than the game (you get to see the first death mentioned in the Laplace Mail) and it evens comes with mythology tidbits for the demons.
 

Hylian7

Member
I've been playing SMT1 lately for the first time. I enjoy it, but it is kind of tedious in some ways. It feels like terminals are pretty far apart, so dying to a random battle with 6 demons is super frustrating. I also really can't stand the fact that battles are purely random. I wish they used a system like Nocturne or Strange Journey did (the meter that starts blue and eventually turns red). Walking one space after getting out of a battle and immediately getting into another one is super frustrating. The UI is also kind of annoying, as when I'm looking at spells I can't see the character/demon's MP. Toward the beginning I felt like I was walking around aimlessly until I kind of stumbled into the right place (after you bring the coffee back to your mother, all the stuff you are supposed to do with walking south, then going back home to find out your mother was eaten).

Overall I'm enjoying the game though. I really liked the idea of taking your dog and fusing it with a demon to become Cerberus, and then it gets teleported to who knows where after the Douman battle. I can't seem to be able to consistently do negotiations properly as they feel much more random than later iterations of the series. I end up in a loop of the same line (usually the one that is either "Keep laughing" or "Stop") sometimes, or sometimes what I thought works on a type of demon is exactly opposite for another demon of the same type later. Is there some rhyme or reason to it? I thought it was based on what species the demon was, but it also just seems completely random sometimes.

I'm also replaying SMT4, I did a thread a while back about my look back on that game: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1114604

SMT4 really nailed atmosphere, and replaying it reminds me just how much it did nail atmosphere. I don't think I can really say the atmosphere is better or worse than Nocturne, as it's completely different. Nocturne kind of had this "wibbly wobbly Demons are everywhere and humans are gone!" feel to it. SMT4 feels more grounded in reality, just like that humanity is still trying to survive despite the demons making it dangerous to be in the streets. Sort of like an "I Am Legend" type feeling, but with more humans hidden and not a shitty ending.

The music is definitely better than Nocturne's, and easily the best music the series has ever had. There were more interesting implications I thought about, however these are kind of spoilers. To be on the safe side, I'll just say don't read any of these if you haven't finished the game yet:

1.
Was Burroughs implied to be designed to resemble the Goddess of Tokyo? She sure looks like her, yet has that silhouette appearance to mask that.

2.
Who exactly are the White? I've seen the theory that they are the protagonists from the previous games (counting either if... or Strange Journey), but I don't think that really makes much sense as they certainly act nothing like the protagonists from the other games would.

3.
Did no one from Mikado ever go to where the edge of the Firmament would be? It would have to eventually become pretty steep since it's a dome shape. They were also implied to have horses, so I would think getting there is not much of an issue. There doesn't seem to be anything mentioned by the Monastery or king forbidding it.

4.
While in the localized versions, we see everything in English, but we know the "mystic script" is implied to be Japanese. The question remains though, what language are they speaking in Mikado? Why was it that Mikado seems to be of a more medival English influence, rather than Japanese? The only hint of Japanese culture in Mikado left is the Samurai.

5.
Is Burroughs actually a demon within the gauntlets, similar to Nemissa from Soul Hackers? We are told she is an AI, but is she really? She expresses remorse over the decision to go with the White if you choose that, yet in Kasumigaseki she says she "does not have emotions", despite acting like she does.

6.
Who built the scaffolding on the tower, and how did they do it? I've searched and searched and never found a concrete answer to this. Everyone in Tokyo says that they couldn't get past Medusa, implying she has always been there.

7.
Do Kenji and Kiyoharu have counterparts in the versions of Tokyo they aren't in? I didn't get any of the DLC, but read that in the Ancient of Days one that Kiyoharu mentions that "Kenji was right", implying Kenji existed in Blasted Tokyo. By extension, this would imply that Kiyoharu existed in Infernal Tokyo. However, did both exist in regular Tokyo?
 

NeonZ

Member
1.
Was Burroughs implied to be designed to resemble the Goddess of Tokyo? She sure looks like her, yet has that silhouette appearance to mask that.

Yes, Burroughs seems to be based
on the Goddess of Tokyo.

2.
Who exactly are the White? I've seen the theory that they are the protagonists from the previous games (counting either if... or Strange Journey), but I don't think that really makes much sense as they certainly act nothing like the protagonists from the other games would.

The White are a manifestation
of humanity's collective unconscious. I think it's mentioned in the white forest, but I can't remember in which route it was.

3.
Did no one from Mikado ever go to where the edge of the Firmament would be? It would have to eventually become pretty steep since it's a dome shape. They were also implied to have horses, so I would think getting there is not much of an issue. There doesn't seem to be anything mentioned by the Monastery or king forbidding it.

Presumably land movement through a thousand years might have made it naturally less sudden?

4.
While in the localized versions, we see everything in English, but we know the "mystic script" is implied to be Japanese. The question remains though, what language are they speaking in Mikado? Why was it that Mikado seems to be of a more medival English influence, rather than Japanese? The only hint of Japanese culture in Mikado left is the Samurai.

SMT IV kind of has this nationalist sub-theme.
It seems like one of the objectives of the law faction here is completely erasing Japanese culture. In the law route, near the ending, if you talk with the monastery monks, it's mentioned that the angels ordered them to convert all their books to digital format, but they also must translate all mystic script into their modern language, basically making mystic script disappear when they're done with it.

The Samurai class was created due to King Akira/Aquila, that's why it kept a Japanese name and use of mystic script.

5.
Is Burroughs actually a demon within the gauntlets, similar to Nemissa from Soul Hackers? We are told she is an AI, but is she really? She expresses remorse over the decision to go with the White if you choose that, yet in Kasumigaseki she says she "does not have emotions", despite acting like she does.

There's a Burroughs in every gauntlet, so I think she should be a program.

She also has been referenced as an upgraded version of Arthur (the AI from Strange Journey, thus A -> B initials) in an interview.

6.
Who built the scaffolding on the tower, and how did they do it? I've searched and searched and never found a concrete answer to this. Everyone in Tokyo says that they couldn't get past Medusa, implying she has always been there.

The scaffolding tower was built right after the ceiling was created. It's mentioned that a child from Tokyo called "Akira" went up to the surface after his sister which had been taken by the angels, alongside members of the Counter-Demon Force, like Fujiwara. Later it becomes obvious that Akira was actually King Aquila. He made a pact with the angels (It might have been Mastema specifically) and betrayed the other people from Tokyo, sending them back underground and placing Minotaur to block the way. Medusa must have settled in the base of the tower some time after all that. Afterwards, Mastema turns him against the Archangels, but he's killed by them.

Fujiwara also is strongly implied to be the actual creator of K's Tavern.

7.
Do Kenji and Kiyoharu have counterparts in the versions of Tokyo they aren't in? I didn't get any of the DLC, but read that in the Ancient of Days one that Kiyoharu mentions that "Kenji was right", implying Kenji existed in Blasted Tokyo. By extension, this would imply that Kiyoharu existed in Infernal Tokyo. However, did both exist in regular Tokyo?

They were basically the law and chaos heroes of the SMTIV backstory. They must have existed in all three worlds, but died due to the different events in each one - the splitting point is Flynn's previous incarnation siding with the angels, demons or with Masakado. In Blasted Tokyo, he dies because he's considered filthy by the angels in spite of helping them. In Infernal Tokyo, he dies protecting Kenji's life, which leads him to consider humans weak, creating the demonoids.
 

Hylian7

Member
Yes, Burroughs seems to be based
on the Goddess of Tokyo.



The White are a manifestation
of humanity's collective unconscious. I think it's mentioned in the white forest, but I can't remember in which route it was.



Presumably land movement through a thousand years might have made it naturally less sudden?



SMT IV kind of has this nationalist sub-theme.
It seems like one of the objectives of the law faction here is completely erasing Japanese culture. In the law route, near the ending, if you talk with the monastery monks, it's mentioned that the angels ordered them to convert all their books to digital format, but they also must translate all mystic script into their modern language, basically making mystic script disappear when they're done with it.

The Samurai class was created due to King Akira/Aquila, that's why it kept a Japanese name and use of mystic script.



There's a Burroughs in every gauntlet, so I think she should be a program.

She also has been referenced as an upgraded version of Arthur (the AI from Strange Journey, thus A -> B initials) in an interview.



The scaffolding tower was built right after the ceiling was created. It's mentioned that a child from Tokyo called "Akira" went up to the surface after his sister which had been taken by the angels, alongside members of the Counter-Demon Force, like Fujiwara. Later it becomes obvious that Akira was actually King Aquila. He made a pact with the angels (It might have been Mastema specifically) and betrayed the other people from Tokyo, sending them back underground and placing Minotaur to block the way. Medusa must have settled in the base of the tower some time after all that. Afterwards, Mastema turns him against the Archangels, but he's killed by them.

Fujiwara also is strongly implied to be the actual creator of K's Tavern.



They were basically the law and chaos heroes of the SMTIV backstory. They must have existed in all three worlds, but died due to the different events in each one - the splitting point is Flynn's previous incarnation siding with the angels, demons or with Masakado. In Blasted Tokyo, he dies because he's considered filthy by the angels in spite of helping them. In Infernal Tokyo, he dies protecting Kenji's life, which leads him to consider humans weak, creating the demonoids.

Interesting, thanks for the answers.

One other thing I realized though (regarding the counterparts of characters):
Is it possible Skins is somehow Flynn's previous incarnation? Just seems odd that we know that Skins had the sword, retrieved the info on Pluto, died to Kenji, etc.
 
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