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Shinji Mikami's THE EVIL WITHIN |OT| Where's everyone going? Tango?
- Thread starter Nemesis_
- Start date
SixMachine
Member
I'm in the middle of chapter 15 with no ammo at all. I'm fucked.
What part of chapter 15 are you at?
the arena or the boss fight?
OldGangWarily
Member
Chapter 11 is where it started to be less enjoyable for me due to
those annoying ass Haunteds with assault rifles.
SixMachine
Member
I found that since I upgraded flash bolts, they are some of the most cost efficient arrows in the game. You can stab kill like 3 enemies during it (If you didn't upgrade the bolts, this can be dangerous to do since you come out of the animation pretty late), and since some of the haunted carry torches and axes, you can pick them up to kill more. Not only that but you can use those dead bodies to light a match, if you managed to flash them in a tight group. There should be some trap parts on the map for you to pick up. Also there is a grenade somewhere on the map, I used it against the wave with the fake Ruvik and it took him out and other haunted making it much easier than dealing with those hands chasing me around. After this part, you should be finding more ammo that would carry you to the rest of the chapter. My first playthrough was on survivor.
Fimbulvetr
Member
I'm going to do some of that evisceration I talked about a while back now. I've been replaying, attempting an upgradeless Nightmare run, and I've reached the opening of Chapter 6, where you need to protect Joseph as he opens booby trapped doors. The scenario design here is utter, utter shit, as if a middle schooler or something was given the game's dev tools and managed to have their level published in the final game with no one noticing somehow, but I'm not going to talk about it in detail because it's not what's really important. What I want to talk about is how the game's combat is fundamentally flawed.
To start, let's establish what the basic paradigms of combat in this game are. Most enemies need to be at point blank range to damage you, and your primary means of offense is ranged weaponry. You are mobile, but enemies are comparably so, even superior at times. You can attack at range while on the move, but the aim bloom mechanic discourages this very strongly, making you want to stay in place as you attack. It's a direct extension of the style introduced in Resident Evil 4. I know everyone who's played both games (and probably even those that haven't) can grasp this intuitively, but I want to outline the specifics of this style for overall clarity and to be able to directly and specifically compare the two games. I feel comparing them directly is fair because of those core mechanical similarities.
Now let's talk about how TEW violates the foundational rules of RE4's systems. Let's start with the player's side of things. I said that most enemies need to be at point blank range to deal damage, so let's look at what happens just before that, when an enemy is very close. This is possibly the single most important "mechanic-moment" in a game of this style; it's where tension is at its highest, where the enemy's basic approach-->attack loop ends before starting again, and where risk is at maximum. This is where player countermeasures are most important.
In RE4 there were multiple countermeasures one could use, from simple repositioning, to hitting weakpoints to make enemies temporarily helpless and initiate a counterattack, to baiting attacks and then countering by manipulating the enemies' predictable attack ranges, and others. Similar games like Dead Space introduced new countermeasure options, like dedicated dodge maneuvers and projectiles that slow enemies down. The Evil Within has... virtually nothing. In fact, its highly constricted field of view while shooting intentionally makes hitting enemies at point blank range exceptionally difficult, especially if they approach from the blind spot on your left. This effectively punishes you for allowing enemies within this range even before the actual punishment, damage, occurs. There are three decently effective defensive options I've found: use a specialized crossbow bolt, use the shotgun, and sprint in the opposite direction of the enemy. The first is subject to your preparedness for scenarios that you can't foresee if you're playing the game for the first time, and probably won't foresee in replays unless you're obsessive about noting the details of each encounter. The second is actually fairly good, since the shotgun's damage increases up close, its spread allows it to hit multiple enemies and it can knock them down, allowing you to burn them, but it's subject to ammo scarcity, and enemies are much more comfortable with approaching on your flank than they are in RE4, which can often render this form of defense moot. The third is the big exception to player and enemy movement's rough equivalence, and where the game's combat becomes outright comical. If your stamina is high enough, kiting enemies around the edges of the arena while taking potshots becomes a very effective strategy that completely disengages you from the core tension that up-close enemy encounter design is meant to create. Even with lower stamina, this is an effective tactic because Sebastian's top speed is faster than any standard enemy's by a significant amount (this also turns stealth scenarios with standard enemies into weird comical affairs, but we're talking about combat here). The game's level design is also poorly made to accommodate this speed of movement, try sprinting around an arena without accidentally bumping into any obstacles, it's near impossible in many cases. Still, it appears that bursts of awkward kiting are the game's intended defense mechanism. Being forced to stand your ground against approaching enemies that deal damage when they reach you, and being given strong and nuanced options to do so is the innermost core of RE4, and it's a core that's entirely missing in TEW despite the game's insistence on imitating RE4's broader paradigms.
The other half of the basic combat equation is enemy behavior. This has a strong impact on the success of the core, but is a separate aspect of design. Again, most enemies must close the distance between themselves and the player to deal damage, and in this style of game the speed with which that distance is closed is fundamental to the game's balance. In RE4, enemies would move at top speed, comparable to the player's average speed (no one ever walked in RE4), until they reached a certain distance from the player, at which they'd slow down drastically. This piece of design, which if you look at it superficially and apply the rules of the real world to it seems unnatural, is actually the lynchpin of the entire combat system as far as standard enemies go. TEW seems to look at this idea, crumple it up like used tissue paper and throw it out the window. Enemies using attacks that rush at the player at a top speed comparable to the player's average speed is practically the norm. In RE4, a standard enemy had only a single attack that could cause them to travel long distances quickly, and it could only be used if the enemy wasn't holding a weapon. In TEW, this type of attack is absolutely commonplace, and can be initiated regardless of weaponry. The careful balance is shattered.
Having so many attacks that close distance quickly wouldn't be so bad if their usage was predictable. In RE4, the zones for triggering enemy attacks were usually well defined, making the execution of their attacks predictable and exploitable. In TEW, enemies trigger attacks wildly and unpredictably, leading to utter chaos. It seems that the basic design goal for TEW's enemies was to make them act very naturally/unpredictably (I think the two terms are fairly interchangeable from a game design standpoint). The theory was probably that this would create a horror experience that was potent and also distinct from RE4. Unfortunately, broad unpredictability is bad game design (you could even say it isn't design at all), and they stuck to a great deal of RE4's design anyway, contradicting their second big goal.
The last thing I'll point out, still in the realm of enemy design, is how enemies track the player as they attack. In RE4, the moment an enemy begins an attack, the direction of that attack is set and the enemy cannot follow further player movements. This is not the case in TEW, enemies are fully capable of tracking the player as they attack. This is less important in TEW than in RE4, since outmaneuvering enemies at close range is de-emphasized as I outlined earlier, but it deserves to be mentioned as another significant piece of sloppy design, again probably in the pursuit of naturalism in the actions of enemies. I believe this entire approach was misguided.
I've been debating with myself what exactly constitutes the core of the combat system in a game of this style, and I think these points cover it fairly well. This isn't all I'd like to say, not by a longshot. I have so many other specific complaints that it'd probably make your head spin, but this stuff is what's most important and it's taken so much effort to write out already. I would like to say that there are parts of the game I enjoy quite a lot, mostly those where the core combat is only loosely integrated into a broader structure. I just can't abide the fundamental flaws silently coming from people I had such high expectations of. I hope I've made my point convincingly, and that what I've written will create some good discussion. Thanks for reading.
To start, let's establish what the basic paradigms of combat in this game are. Most enemies need to be at point blank range to damage you, and your primary means of offense is ranged weaponry. You are mobile, but enemies are comparably so, even superior at times. You can attack at range while on the move, but the aim bloom mechanic discourages this very strongly, making you want to stay in place as you attack. It's a direct extension of the style introduced in Resident Evil 4. I know everyone who's played both games (and probably even those that haven't) can grasp this intuitively, but I want to outline the specifics of this style for overall clarity and to be able to directly and specifically compare the two games. I feel comparing them directly is fair because of those core mechanical similarities.
Now let's talk about how TEW violates the foundational rules of RE4's systems. Let's start with the player's side of things. I said that most enemies need to be at point blank range to deal damage, so let's look at what happens just before that, when an enemy is very close. This is possibly the single most important "mechanic-moment" in a game of this style; it's where tension is at its highest, where the enemy's basic approach-->attack loop ends before starting again, and where risk is at maximum. This is where player countermeasures are most important.
In RE4 there were multiple countermeasures one could use, from simple repositioning, to hitting weakpoints to make enemies temporarily helpless and initiate a counterattack, to baiting attacks and then countering by manipulating the enemies' predictable attack ranges, and others. Similar games like Dead Space introduced new countermeasure options, like dedicated dodge maneuvers and projectiles that slow enemies down. The Evil Within has... virtually nothing. In fact, its highly constricted field of view while shooting intentionally makes hitting enemies at point blank range exceptionally difficult, especially if they approach from the blind spot on your left. This effectively punishes you for allowing enemies within this range even before the actual punishment, damage, occurs. There are three decently effective defensive options I've found: use a specialized crossbow bolt, use the shotgun, and sprint in the opposite direction of the enemy. The first is subject to your preparedness for scenarios that you can't foresee if you're playing the game for the first time, and probably won't foresee in replays unless you're obsessive about noting the details of each encounter. The second is actually fairly good, since the shotgun's damage increases up close, its spread allows it to hit multiple enemies and it can knock them down, allowing you to burn them, but it's subject to ammo scarcity, and enemies are much more comfortable with approaching on your flank than they are in RE4, which can often render this form of defense moot. The third is the big exception to player and enemy movement's rough equivalence, and where the game's combat becomes outright comical. If your stamina is high enough, kiting enemies around the edges of the arena while taking potshots becomes a very effective strategy that completely disengages you from the core tension that up-close enemy encounter design is meant to create. Even with lower stamina, this is an effective tactic because Sebastian's top speed is faster than any standard enemy's by a significant amount (this also turns stealth scenarios with standard enemies into weird comical affairs, but we're talking about combat here). The game's level design is also poorly made to accommodate this speed of movement, try sprinting around an arena without accidentally bumping into any obstacles, it's near impossible in many cases. Still, it appears that bursts of awkward kiting are the game's intended defense mechanism. Being forced to stand your ground against approaching enemies that deal damage when they reach you, and being given strong and nuanced options to do so is the innermost core of RE4, and it's a core that's entirely missing in TEW despite the game's insistence on imitating RE4's broader paradigms.
The other half of the basic combat equation is enemy behavior. This has a strong impact on the success of the core, but is a separate aspect of design. Again, most enemies must close the distance between themselves and the player to deal damage, and in this style of game the speed with which that distance is closed is fundamental to the game's balance. In RE4, enemies would move at top speed, comparable to the player's average speed (no one ever walked in RE4), until they reached a certain distance from the player, at which they'd slow down drastically. This piece of design, which if you look at it superficially and apply the rules of the real world to it seems unnatural, is actually the lynchpin of the entire combat system as far as standard enemies go. TEW seems to look at this idea, crumple it up like used tissue paper and throw it out the window. Enemies using attacks that rush at the player at a top speed comparable to the player's average speed is practically the norm. In RE4, a standard enemy had only a single attack that could cause them to travel long distances quickly, and it could only be used if the enemy wasn't holding a weapon. In TEW, this type of attack is absolutely commonplace, and can be initiated regardless of weaponry. The careful balance is shattered.
Having so many attacks that close distance quickly wouldn't be so bad if their usage was predictable. In RE4, the zones for triggering enemy attacks were usually well defined, making the execution of their attacks predictable and exploitable. In TEW, enemies trigger attacks wildly and unpredictably, leading to utter chaos. It seems that the basic design goal for TEW's enemies was to make them act very naturally/unpredictably (I think the two terms are fairly interchangeable from a game design standpoint). The theory was probably that this would create a horror experience that was potent and also distinct from RE4. Unfortunately, broad unpredictability is bad game design (you could even say it isn't design at all), and they stuck to a great deal of RE4's design anyway, contradicting their second big goal.
The last thing I'll point out, still in the realm of enemy design, is how enemies track the player as they attack. In RE4, the moment an enemy begins an attack, the direction of that attack is set and the enemy cannot follow further player movements. This is not the case in TEW, enemies are fully capable of tracking the player as they attack. This is less important in TEW than in RE4, since outmaneuvering enemies at close range is de-emphasized as I outlined earlier, but it deserves to be mentioned as another significant piece of sloppy design, again probably in the pursuit of naturalism in the actions of enemies. I believe this entire approach was misguided.
I've been debating with myself what exactly constitutes the core of the combat system in a game of this style, and I think these points cover it fairly well. This isn't all I'd like to say, not by a longshot. I have so many other specific complaints that it'd probably make your head spin, but this stuff is what's most important and it's taken so much effort to write out already. I would like to say that there are parts of the game I enjoy quite a lot, mostly those where the core combat is only loosely integrated into a broader structure. I just can't abide the fundamental flaws silently coming from people I had such high expectations of. I hope I've made my point convincingly, and that what I've written will create some good discussion. Thanks for reading.
I was thankful that those invisible enemies stopped showing up. With the tight camera and limited shotgun ammo, they were a real pain in the ass. They honestly should not have been in the game.
They are really not that bad, they always came alone and you had plenty of time to aim and look for their movement, you just had to pay attention to the environment as they move.
-MD-
Member
-MD-
Member
Wrong thread?
Crimsonclaw111
Member
I'm very close to the end of the game, but have to take a break since the FOV is broken for now. I like the game but it isn't anywhere near Mikami's best. However, it's far from bad, outside of the shit decisions like fov, aspect ratio, and the like.
Playing it on PC is the only way I'd probably recommend the game, but that's just me. The game is still a blast but the negatives really hurt the experience.
Playing it on PC is the only way I'd probably recommend the game, but that's just me. The game is still a blast but the negatives really hurt the experience.
Nope. Unless I'm remembering the name wrong, I got the Halloween challenge for this game (albeit, playing another).
Just curious if anyone else unlocked it.
Just got scared a while ago. Booted up the game and at the logo screens everything was like morse code, lines and dots instead of text. Then the epilepsy warning, everything was squares (like when you try to read something in japanese and the browser can't translate, can't explain better), and at the main title screen there was a triangle cutting off half of the screen.
Exited the game, rebooted and been playing for 2 hours, everything seems fine. I hope that was just a fluke and nothing wrong with my ps4. Fucking hell.
Exited the game, rebooted and been playing for 2 hours, everything seems fine. I hope that was just a fluke and nothing wrong with my ps4. Fucking hell.
swazzyswess
Member
Really interesting post, and this stands to me as the most critical shortcoming of the ones you detailed (or the one that I noticed most while playing). By the time I reached the largest open area in Chapter 6, I realized that what you call the awkward kiting strategy was the best (maybe only?) way to approach the more combat-heavy situations. And the end result was exactly as you said: I took a few shots, used my sprint meter to get away and lead the enemies back over to me, and repeat over and over again. While you're in the moment and trying to survive, it's easy to overlook how silly encounters like these are, but looking back, I spent hours using this same strategy. I'm not saying I didn't have fun while doing it, at least some of the time, but it's a definitely a unique and... strange result of the game's combat mechanics and enemy design.
-MD-
Member
Shoot him.
Braag
Member
By shooting him... a lot.
You might find a grenade or two if you break all the crates and boxes, which will come handy. Also use the traps against him. Remember to kill all the enemies before engaging him though.
You might find a grenade or two if you break all the crates and boxes, which will come handy. Also use the traps against him. Remember to kill all the enemies before engaging him though.
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
That's the problem, hardly any ammo. I thought there must be another way.
Yeah, I got the crossbow after exploring the area a bit. Will try killing him now.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
Alternatively to shooting him, there's a lot of traps around the village you can use.
GreyOcelot
Member
here's my suggestion from a couple pages back. which conserves ammo 100%
EDIT: actually it's on the top of this very page
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
Huh, I just realised that every time you see red blobs of blood floating around it's a subtle sign that a trap is near.
Also, I just got up to chapter 4 in akumu mode. It's tense, but really fun. Though I'm kinda dreading chapter 6. : (
Also, I just got up to chapter 4 in akumu mode. It's tense, but really fun. Though I'm kinda dreading chapter 6. : (
Great, my game glitched in ch.14:
Is chapter 15 full length or pretty short? Need to figure out if I should try to finish this tonight or save it for tomorrow.
After the boss and running through the train, see the ghosts in the brain room, take down the 3 enemies and pull their cords..and then I got a BLACK SCREEN WITH SOUND ONLY that I could move around in.
I thought it was like a puzzle and you have to use the surround sound of pipe steam to escape in the dark, tried for like 20 mins only to google a walkthrough and find that my game glitched and was supposed to show the end chapter cutscene at that point >_<
...and I didn't bother saving after beating the boss because I figured it was the end of the chapter :\ At least the boss is pretty easy on survival with a full arsenal and flash bolts to stop it in place. Still annoying.
I thought it was like a puzzle and you have to use the surround sound of pipe steam to escape in the dark, tried for like 20 mins only to google a walkthrough and find that my game glitched and was supposed to show the end chapter cutscene at that point >_<
...and I didn't bother saving after beating the boss because I figured it was the end of the chapter :\ At least the boss is pretty easy on survival with a full arsenal and flash bolts to stop it in place. Still annoying.
Is chapter 15 full length or pretty short? Need to figure out if I should try to finish this tonight or save it for tomorrow.
ArkkAngel007
Member
Outside of using the trap house, if you have the parts just make some flash bolts and stab him about 4 times.
Ugh the infamous boss in
is a real bitch. I don't have anything to stun it with and after a couple of shots in the second phase he just jumps on me and instakills me. I mean wtf, I can't even outrun it when that happens. I even have fully maxed sprint.
Tried to kill it for an hour yesterday with no luck. Fucking bullshit.
ch 10
Tried to kill it for an hour yesterday with no luck. Fucking bullshit.
I agree, even if I used
the window to go outside on the porch
Yep, and that's good. very good.
Stairouais
Member
Same thing. First difficulty spike so far.
It wouldn't be that bad if the loading times weren't so goddamn long.
This is the thing that will prevent me from finishing this fucking game.
Trust me. I'm a PhD
Member
It feels like a game made 10 years ago and that either makes it a top ten for the year or complete ass for most players. For me, I said "What the heck? Screw this" at least half a dozen times, but still love this game for the old school vibes it gives me.
AkimbO_Arcana
Banned
After getting killed by the chainsaw guy in chapter 3 another 4 times I either shelve or sell this game for good.
I can't make it, RE6 feels like a coherent masterpiece combat wise compared to this. Fuck it. I even got desperate and watched youtube videos. There is nothing I don't get, you just have to get lucky avoiding insta death hits despite those fucking controls.
I can't make it, RE6 feels like a coherent masterpiece combat wise compared to this. Fuck it. I even got desperate and watched youtube videos. There is nothing I don't get, you just have to get lucky avoiding insta death hits despite those fucking controls.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
...?
The battles honestly not that hard... It's pretty straight forward. You either shoot and run away from him until he dies, use the traps around the arena, and there's multiple areas edge wise to use to your advantage. You can clear the town of all the enemies beforehand. There's a ladder in the barn where he is that, which you can use for a cheap strategy is to climb up it while he's revving up his chainsaw and keep him from climbing up it, or even just shoot him from the second floor beforehand to trigger him and keep distance. There's no luck involved you just.... Don't get close to the man with the chainsaw?
I mean... do you know how to dash? Do you know mashing the command button (which will be the button you use to shoot) when you're not aiming your gun will make you refill your stamina faster? Do you know to not always have your gun pulled out and to only take a shot or two then run if he's close and then put your gun down and book it, and might be better to lead him to the traps around the arena than face him directly? D oyou know if you explore the houses there's a shotgun and a crossbow that you can use?
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
He doesn't go down quite like most enemies. You have to shoot traps, run him into the spike trap, find the shotgun up in the house, throw grenades, etc. He'll go down, but he's giving you practice. Don't drain your stamina either. You have to spend half your stamina and get to point A or B quick.
swazzyswess
Member
.... then again, if dude wants to drop the game because of the chapter 3 boss, I think later chapters will give him an aneurysm. Might be a good idea to bail now if you're already frustrated.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
The Sadist is "A creature born from the mind of a murderer merged with Ruvik's madness. He has lost himself to rage, becoming murderousness personified".
TheSpoiler
Member
The Evil Within demands awareness of your surroundings. There are many, many ways to take that guy down. There are two level traps, one of which the game leads you to in order to proceed in the level. That's not to mention the many traps laden around the level, in which you can either make enough ammo to take that guy down, or just leave them for a nasty surprise. It's about survival, and while this game has lot of problems, this level isn't one of them.
-MD-
Member
You tap sprint when he gets close and shoot him half a dozen times with a shotgun. It's not even remotely challenging on the 2 default modes.
You can literally run around the boss in circles while taking quick shots until he dies, find any open area and just run in a circle, he'll never catch you. Dropping the game is a good idea if you can't manage chapter 3.
-_-
DoDonGouki
Member
Oh come on guys !
Just go to the trap house, hide behind the inner window and wait for him...press the switch when he opens the door. Escape through the window, wait outside for him and repeat the process. You dont even need a single bullet.
Gamers these days.....pfft
Just go to the trap house, hide behind the inner window and wait for him...press the switch when he opens the door. Escape through the window, wait outside for him and repeat the process. You dont even need a single bullet.
Gamers these days.....pfft
grandwizard
Member
Reactions like these are why they make press A for awesome games these days. I loved that part, it was a throwback to the intense danger presented in older survival horror games and you had to really explore and use your surroundings to take him down. It's not anywhere close to impossible, but a good challenge that gives you a great sense of accomplishment once you have beat it. I mean that area alone gives you so many different ways to take him down, you have tripwire traps you can not disarm to lure him into, switch based traps that are endlessly reusable, burnable environment items to set him on fire, a shotgun, a crossbow, etc.. It was a great sandbox, I wish the game had more areas like it.
This part is so ridiculously easy. These comments put the complaints about this game really in context.
-MD-
Member
Brerlappin
Member
Chainsaw guy was fucking easy. He got me once or twice through my own carelessness, but its nowhere near a tough fight. A couple of explosive agony bolts and some shotgun rounds and hes done.
But realistically yeah, if you cant handle that fight, you probably should just give up. Maybe buy Barbie Race n' Ride instead...
But realistically yeah, if you cant handle that fight, you probably should just give up. Maybe buy Barbie Race n' Ride instead...
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
play on casual if it crushes you, goons. the game is still way fun.
GreyOcelot
Member
co-sign. i cannot believe people are complaining about it. people will literally complain about anything that presents any sort of a challenge
Anyone? Seems like the encounter can't be just ran past and I have to kill everything. There's only so many you can knock into the water as some just camp inside the box.
Forensic Scene
Member
Hoping to see this on Black Friday somewhere for a 40 spot.