Silksong is shockingly cheap at just $20, but Team Cherry says it just tries to "price the games at a reasonable level for people"

LectureMaster

Or is it just one of Adam's balls in my throat?


When your first game sells over 15 million copies, especially if you're an extremely small development team, you don't have to worry about your second game putting food on the table. This was the fortunate position that developer Team Cherry found itself in with Hollow Knight: Silksong after the success of Hollow Knight, so in a way, it was no surprise to see Silksong launch at just $20 – only $5 more than its predecessor – despite being a much larger game that took over six years to make.

Silksong's low price, while not an unbelievable outlier, is very much an outlier. Many devs remarked on Team Cherry "being cool and giving their game away" because it can afford to, even if this kind of price-to-production ratio wouldn't be feasible for many indie teams. Heck, I spent more money on shorter Metroidvania games this year and I didn't regret it at all. Even Hollow Knight, and even at the time, felt undervalued at $15, as if Team Cherry didn't fully know what it had on its hands. Of course, you won't hear me complaining about great, affordable games, and just because you could charge more doesn't mean you have to.

On the topic of price, Team Cherry co-lead Ari Gibson says they just try to pick a fair one. That's coming from interview comments in a paperback guide book from the ACMI (the Australian Centre for the Moving Image), which was recently released following an exhibition featuring Silksong.

Gibson revisits the design decisions that eventually led the studio to turn Silksong into a full game, not the Hollow Knight DLC it was first thought to be. It kept getting bigger until eventually new protagonist Hornet needed a whole new world of her own.

As part of that process, Gibson says, "because we try to price the games at a reasonable level for people – and we have quite a habit of expanding the content to be quite large – it felt inevitable that it would get to a point where the value of what we make would warrant being recognised as a single title."

It is funny to hear Gibson recognize the studio's modus operandi of, not necessarily over-scoping or biting off more than it can chew, but almost unwittingly making projects larger and larger until, suddenly, years have gone by, and your fans have formed a cult. It's also amusing to imagine Team Cherry staff staring down the same $20 price tag that, across the internet, inspired responses both incredulous and reverent, and casually saying, "Yeah, $5 more, that sounds about right."
 
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That's the only reason I haven't reached for my pitchfork, the price is too damn good to complain about balls difficulty.
Nah man can't dodge complaints with a low price. I got it through cheap deal Gamepass and I'll still complain about the difficulty.

Ranting incoming…

It's over-tuned, unbalanced tbh, from two guys playing it over 6 years and becoming experts at it and not realizing that regular gamers are going to be total noobs when it releases.

I've reached 100% now and it's a great game but in no way as good as Hollow Knight.

As far as I'm concerned it's just not balanced correctly. It's built so experts unlock easy mode while casuals are going to play hardcore mode. Casuals will probably be minimum 2 nail upgrades short because of the delivery quest and flea festival, which makes boss fights longer and gauntlets more frustrating.
By the end of it when I had all nail upgrades I plowed through some bosses and gauntlets first time which I had previously struggled on. This was between 87-92% completion. 93-100% was easy peasy.

Standard nail upgrades shouldn't be part of secret areas and side quests with harsh difficulty spikes. They should be part of easier main quests imo. Gradually make it less frustrating for everyone instead of just completionist experts. Tools can be the hard to get exploration and boss rewards.
 
By their metric a game should only be priced by their hype levels and not the greatness of the game itself. That GOTY level games shouldn't be priced at such a low amount of money.
 
Silksong being 20$ hits the industry in a sensitive spot. Not because it is cheap but because it exposes how much meaningless padding everyone else is selling. Other games launch in my region with ridiculous markups just to squeeze more out of us and here comes Silksong actually releasing at 10$ here. It is insane.
 
I hated on Silksong years before the game came out. I knew with 99% certainty that they'd repeat mistakes of Hollow Knight's design, and did my best to point those out while the game was still in development. Silksong is flawed, frustrating, and a perfect example of what happens when the praise of your debut game completely drowns out any criticism you could have used to your advantage.

However, despite all of this, it's a fucking STEAL at $20. The game, with all of its flaws and frustrations, is still absolutely phenomenal, and it's absolutely insane to get that amount of gameplay for a mere $20.

Trust me, I have shit on Silksong way more than the average person, unscrupulously pointing out the pedantic problems I knew would be there before the game launched, yet there is no denying the fact that the game is still a masterclass in level design, core gameplay mechanics, metroidvania progression, and boss design.

It sucks that the game is so hard, and it sucks that there are objectively horrible design decisions (like some of the grunt wave gauntlets) you have to drudge through. But at 20 American dollars, you can easily forgive those moments. (I mean, it might cost you an extra $50 after breaking your controller…)

It's an easy 9/10 game. Even if I'll never forgive them for wasting a fucking equip slot just to see where you're located on the map I MEAN WHAT THE HELL TEAM CHERRY, FUCK.
 
I think Silksongs difficutly and balance is and was fine, it's was even too easy at parts(bosses mostly).

I really hope they do not make their next game easier because some are/were complaining. ;/

Sry for the off topic.
 
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Silksong being 20$ hits the industry in a sensitive spot. Not because it is cheap but because it exposes how much meaningless padding everyone else is selling. Other games launch in my region with ridiculous markups just to squeeze more out of us and here comes Silksong actually releasing at 10$ here. It is insane.
Standard price for console AAA in my region:
94,30 USD
At this point I Iiterally only use Gamepass and Steam sales.
 
Given the economics of the world right now, perfect time for AA to indie-sized devs to charge lower price points, and reap the rewards of more frugal customers right now.
 
A AAA game is going to cost more and have more overhead than an indie game made by a handful of people.
We don't see this is on hardware based platforms with hard constraints.
In particular, PS1 games made by very small studios and AAA studios both sold for the exact same price.
There's no qualitative distinction between a small studio PS1 game like Harmful Park (Sky Think Studios) and an AAA PS1 game like Parodius (Konami).
Bringing back PS1 HW on a modern console and reopening the PS1 platform to studios will allow small studios to sell modern PS1 games on PSN (as PS1 exclusives) at full price.
The same will be true for more complicated PS2 games which are still within the range of small studios.
By creating new games that only exist on a platform tied to proprietary HW studios can charge full new game price.
Adding a 2hr Steam return policy to that will allow people to buy unknown games made by unknown studios without any risk of getting stuck with a bad game.
 
A good amount of great games this year had a very fair price, Arc, Exp 33, KCD 2, Silksong were all great deals, and all of them were very succesful gladly.

Meanwhile Doom bombing with a 10-15h campaign, no MP, at 80€ :messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
Depends how you quantify what's reasonable.

I mean, for example, should production cost *ever* factor in ?

Silksong compared to say, GTA is worlds apart in terms of sheer cash and manpower expended to bring to market.

Obviously this is about as extreme a difference as it gets, but the numbers don't lie. The production cost to product rrp ratio is on a different planet.
 
If the price is too high, don't buy it.

You don't have to to buy a video game for more than you think it should cost. This is largely an irrelevance however because gamers will pay whatever they're told to pay.

If major publishers realised that the only power gamers as a group are prepared to exercise is complaining and grumbling, they could put the price of AAA games up tomorrow. GTA could launch at $120 and people would whine andv immediately pay it.
 
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We have this strange market where, compared to a new game costing 70+ €/$, a game selling at 30 €/$ or less is objectively cheap. Especially when you compare it to, say, the late 90s/ early 2000s, when a new PS1 game cost around $50/$60 if AAA, and $40 if not AAA. Or GBA games, which all cost the same no matter their developer or their longevity.

The problem comes when you compare a game like Silksong with stuff that costs the same, like, I dunno, Shadow of the Ninja Remastered. Then the second feels like robbery, and the first one feels like a steal.
 
A lot is said about the price versus the quantity of content, but to me the most striking thing is the QUALITY of that content. You may like the game or not for whatever reasons, but the level of craft and attention to detail just embarrass most half assed AAA games in the industry. The animations, art direction, sound design, worldbuilding, etc. could have been made by 50 people and nobody would be surprised. Even the writing is stellar. There's little talk about the narrative because of its genre but Hornet is one of the most charismatic female characters this gen and that's because these guys also know how to write very well. No modern quipping or bullshit social commentary. Every character speaks in a very believable and unique way. That's AAA talent and attention to details.

You can see this is a passion project; these guys just love what they do and want people to love it too.

Honorable mention to Christopher Larkin, the necessary other half of the success formula. The score he has composed in these two games is just unreal, both in quantity and quality.
 
That's the only reason I haven't reached for my pitchfork, the price is too damn good to complain about balls difficulty.

I dont want to be that guy, but honestly im confused about what people are going on about in terms of diffculty.

Im not the greatest player, far from it. But Silksong gave a great challange and it felt good when you overcome it.

My first thought is the artwork and the fact I see people who normally only play "cozy" titles suddenly talking about this makes me think that the style of the game in terms of art has attracted an audience who are just not used to being challenged in their games.

However im surprised to see it being talked about here on NeoGAF as an issue still. It was certainly my GOTY and honestly I still think it would have been had they charged twice the price.
 
It's primarily made by 3 people, it's profitable at the price point, both the devs and fans are happy with the price.
Seems like a win-win to me.

I also find it funny how all the people complaining about it being "unfair" or setting "unrealistic expectations" seem to forget that Hollow Knight was arguably just as good and launched for $15 when Team Cherry was literally an unknown studio
 
Depends how you quantify what's reasonable.

I mean, for example, should production cost *ever* factor in ?

Silksong compared to say, GTA is worlds apart in terms of sheer cash and manpower expended to bring to market.

Obviously this is about as extreme a difference as it gets, but the numbers don't lie. The production cost to product rrp ratio is on a different planet.
Maybe the AAA equation isn't working then?

You can buy the latest James Cameron Avatar movie for the same price as Silksong.

Now imagine if big movies would cost $80-100. It would kill movie sales and movie studios would close.
Similar to what is happening in gaming…

I think this is worth talking about. We're applauding when big AAA Ghost of Yotei sell to 4% of the PS5 userbase. It's considered successful. Even though 96% are ignoring the game. But why are they ignoring it? Because the game isn't good enough? Or because it's too expensive?

I know how I'm thinking. I almost exclusively play through Gamepass today for day 1 releases, then I use Steam sales for purchases, definitely ain't buying games I'm not entirely sure I'll like for $90.
 
Depends how you quantify what's reasonable.

I mean, for example, should production cost *ever* factor in ?

Silksong compared to say, GTA is worlds apart in terms of sheer cash and manpower expended to bring to market.

Obviously this is about as extreme a difference as it gets, but the numbers don't lie. The production cost to product rrp ratio is on a different planet.

Tell Nintendo that. They even sell old ass games at full price still when they shouldn't have even been that price at launch!
 
I dont want to be that guy, but honestly im confused about what people are going on about in terms of diffculty.

Im not the greatest player, far from it. But Silksong gave a great challange and it felt good when you overcome it.

My first thought is the artwork and the fact I see people who normally only play "cozy" titles suddenly talking about this makes me think that the style of the game in terms of art has attracted an audience who are just not used to being challenged in their games.

However im surprised to see it being talked about here on NeoGAF as an issue still. It was certainly my GOTY and honestly I still think it would have been had they charged twice the price.
Oh I'll beat it when I get the chance. Right now I'm doing some intense physical labor five days a week, plus I'm getting older so my time is precious and I don't have the energy required to put in to the game at the moment. When the opportunity arises I'll pour everything into beating it.

What I've played of it so far (just a few hours) it is balls difficult, and slow, and I agree that it doesn't seem to be as good as the first game. It seems more unforgiving early on, and while I said I'll beat it, and I will, I wish games weren't so punishing, or at least offer better options.
 
Why would I waste money on the McDonalds version of Castlevania. I would rather get a restaurant burger.

The problem comes when you compare a game like Silksong with stuff that costs the same, like, I dunno, Shadow of the Ninja Remastered. Then the second feels like robbery, and the first one feels like a steal.
You have it backwards.
 
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Maybe the AAA equation isn't working then?

You can buy the latest James Cameron Avatar movie for the same price as Silksong.

Now imagine if big movies would cost $80-100. It would kill movie sales and movie studios would close.
Similar to what is happening in gaming…

I think this is worth talking about. We're applauding when big AAA Ghost of Yotei sell to 4% of the PS5 userbase. It's considered successful. Even though 96% are ignoring the game. But why are they ignoring it? Because the game isn't good enough? Or because it's too expensive?

I know how I'm thinking. I almost exclusively play through Gamepass today for day 1 releases, then I use Steam sales for purchases, definitely ain't buying games I'm not entirely sure I'll like for $90.

That's the point. a Ticket or purchase of an indie or blockbuster movie is the same.
But it seems like people expect games prices to be less than they were 40 years ago!

Despite how much people complain, Videogames were never cheap.
 
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