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[Angelus Errare]

Gender dysphoria (that is the proper term?) might not be the greatest comparison but what about something like Body Integrity Identity Disorder?
I mean, if there are people out there who think they should only have 3 limbs or something and that they should have a limb amputated to feel complete or 'normal,' then it would not surprise me in the least for such a thing as "feeling light skin but having dark skin" to exist.

But again as I stated much like gender and the want to change, BIID can be boiled down to it being neurological. Wanting lighter skin is pretty much purely social, you think you'll be better accepted/get more dates if you have lighter skin. People who purposefully amputee themselves aren't doing to be accepted by society, much like people who undergo a gender change. There is a clear consice nuerological reason why vast majority of men/females change genders. Doctors can even paint a neurological picture as to the need to amputee one's self. Is there a neorological reasoning why people want to lighten their skin? Yes in the sense they're trying to rationalize, but chemical imbalance/failing in neurological mapping? highly doubtful.

Saying you feel like a light skin person in a dark skinned person's body is self loathing. It's like that episode of Tyra Banks in which this girl states she feels like a white girl stuck in a black girl's body and when Tyra asked her why (which is where the breakdown occurs when comparing to gender change) she said because she acted white and wasn't ghetto but couldn't get dates with white guys and everyone said her skin was ugly.....=|

I have no issues with people wanting to lighten their skin, but they shouldn't hide behind the shadow of those who switch genders, because the two cases are nothing alike. People lighten their skin because they want to be seen as beautiful by everyone else much less themselves. If the world was in reverse and dark skin was seen as the epitome of beautiful (I think it is), the amount of dark skinned people bleaching their skin would drop dramatically without question.

 

[EYEL1NER]

Wait, did you get married to the sister of the Juicy girl?

Yeah?

But again as I stated much like gender and the want to change, BIID can be boiled down to it being neurological. Wanting lighter skin is pretty much purely social, you think you'll be better accepted/get more dates if you have lighter skin. People who purposefully amputee themselves aren't doing to be accepted by society, much like people who undergo a gender change.

I do agree that wanting lighter skin is pretty much a purely social thing. But I guess where I was coming from with my post is that the brain is fucking weird: it can make people want, desire, believe, or like some weird stuff. Like a neurological issue where someone would feel that they are meant to be a paraplegic. Surely something in someone's brain could be off and that could cause them to think they are supposed to have lighter skin, right? Granted it wouldn't be the majority of people, as a lot of people want it because of what they believe society expects of them and stuff.

You are saying "x" doesn't exist and I am wondering why it couldn't.

 

[Cheech]

My wife, who is white, looks middle eastern due to some South American or African genes at some point in her bloodline on her dad's side.

She started using skin whitening stuff after getting probed at every airport checkpoint after 9/11. I feel embarrassed for her. If I was her, I would have started wearing a burqua and really started making those idiots nervous. I hate, hate, hate profiling.

 

[nOoblet16]

Why is tanning (even natural tanning by sunbathing) ok then ?
Isn't it double standards

I grew up in India and used to spend a lot of time in Farms and never really used sunscreen much as a kid (only later did I realize why my face used to burn so much lol)...naturally my skin tone got darker over the years, and I used to be the darkest among my friends back there and I know the kind of mentality people have towards skin tones in India, sad as it may be it's still a harsh reality that it matters a lot over there and any Middle easter Country as well. Also arranged marriage is quite normal in India and skin tones is associated with beauty so it matters a LOT over there. It's all different now, I've still got light brown skin and I now think it's prefect skin to have, can tan a bit more if I want, it can still burn though (a lot of people look at me and wonder why I put sunscreen..lol, and I'm like the hell I'm not even that dark and even the people with the darkest skin tone can get sun burned with enough exposure).

 

[John Dunbar]

This reminds me of this great article/story, An Asshole to Dye For: An Experiment In Anal Bleaching.

Some choice quotes:

An eerie silence settles over the pharmacy as I sidle up to the poor woman stocking the skin care aisle. With fire in my eyes and drink on my breath, I make a vow not to tiptoe around the matter. Such is my fervor. Such is my madness.

"Excuse me. Do you sell anal bleach?"

The wheels in her head are instantly set in motion. Nine times out of ten, when a ragged, unshaven man dressed as if he were within the blast radius of a thrift shop explosion asks for anal bleach, something sinister is afoot. She affixes upon me a gaze struggling to express curiosity, pity, fear, and revulsion all at once. It is her last attempt at eye contact.

Day Twenty-Eight. Fourth week complete. Things around the old one-ring circus have settled back into a rhythm, but it appears my brown eye has cataracts. Both sides are a somber shade of pinkish-gray that one would be hard-pressed to find on a color palette at Sherwin-Williams. (Out of curiosity, I went to Sherwin-Williams to see if they did in fact have a similarly-hued color chip. To my astonishment, they did. So if you're looking to paint your kitchen in a partially-resuscitated asshole motif, head to this fine retailer and ask for SW 6022 - Breathless).

And then, far away in the distance, a faint rustling.

My ancestors thrash in their graves.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Yeah?

I do agree that wanting lighter skin is pretty much a purely social thing. But I guess where I was coming from with my post is that the brain is fucking weird: it can make people want, desire, believe, or like some weird stuff. Like a neurological issue where someone would feel that they are meant to be a paraplegic. Surely something in someone's brain could be off and that could cause them to think they are supposed to have lighter skin, right? Granted it wouldn't be the majority of people, as a lot of people want it because of what they believe society expects of them and stuff.

You are saying "x" doesn't exist and I am wondering why it couldn't.

Well for one, you and the other person took one sentence out of a post that was comparing the need to lighten skin versus gender change in which I was comparing one being a neurological thing and the other being societal. There is no evidence that "I feel light skinned" in a dark skinned body is neurological. Which is why I shot down the comparison with gender change from the get go. Is it possible for it be purely neurological? Honestly in my opinion probably not. But I'm willing to be proven wrong.

If people want to believe they're light/white trapped in a dark/black body. Hey continue to believe such, just don't compare it to gender changing.

 

[3phemeral]

Pretty sure absolutely none of these creams work unless you're able to get a hold of prescription-strength medications and even then, the ones that do inhibit melanin productions are both dangerous and temporary. It's really interesting how pervasive this mentality is in Asia, even in countries where darker skin is more naturally prevalent. As someone who is on the lighter side of an olive skin complexion, I always found it odd that a few of my friend's parents will occasionally comment on how dark I am, but will then try to make light of the situation by saying they were only joking, despite having used an obviously derogatory tone.

 

[nOoblet16]

Pretty sure absolutely none of these creams work unless you're able to get a hold of prescription-strength medications and even then, the ones that do inhibit melanin productions are both dangerous and temporary. It's really interesting how pervasive this mentality is in Asia, even in countries where darker skin is more naturally prevalent. As someone who is on the lighter side of an olive skin complexion, I always found it odd that a few of my friend's parents will occasionally comment on how dark I am, but will then try to make light of the situation by saying they were only joking, despite having used an obviously derogatory tone.

I know that feel, even if they didn't really mean that, it usually comes off as an involuntary negative remark...just because of the mentality that exhibits within them.
As for the creams, they do work although only a little but only as long as you regularly put them on and avoid sun...what it simply does is that it brings back your natural skin colour by blocking the production of excess melanin resulted from sun exposure.

 

[suzu]

Aren't those examples like the extreme versions of people who over tan?

It's sad. It'd be nice if people could just be accepted.

I'm pale, and I wish people would get off my back about tanning (as in, I should get a tan because it looks more "healthy").

 

[whatsinaname]

Why would this not be allowed?

I won't say they should not be allowed but they are symptomatic of a rather large problem with real costs (social and monetary) in countries like India, Jamaica, Nigeria and other African countries.

It maybe a remnant of the colonial rule in these countries but the white skin=better thought is so deeply embedded that it affects a lot of social and professional interactions.

As an example, look at the arranged marriage system in India (where the stupid concept of dowry is still very prevalent.) I remember my social studies professor at uni working on a paper comparing the dowries of women who self identified as dark/fair. There was a 30% difference when controlling for other factors. (I don't know if she ever got to publish. The uni was very STEM oriented and funding was usually a problem for the Humanities and Social Sciences division).

That gives you an indication of how bad things are.

It directly affects peoples health as well. Those who cannot pay for the more expensive and tested products go for less expensive alternatives that use a lot of carcinogenic substances. My uncle is a doctor in Jamaica and he says that he sees a huge number of Melanoma cases and those can be tied to the bleaching products that are very popular there.

 

[Stitch]

hmm so she turned into a k-pop star.

 

[siddx]

That stuff is huuuuuuugely popular here in Vietnam. A lot of women think the worst thing in the world is a tan. Some status nonsense about darker skin meaning you have to work in the sun all day and lighter skin meaning you're more well off.
Every skin product here has whitener in it. The sunscreen too. It's one of the things we warn all new ex pats about.

 

[adamsappel]

No one wants to look like the Silver Surfer without the powers and the surfboard.

I spent many years, probably decades, thinking the Silver Surfer was supposed to be colored pure white because of the limitations of comic printing. This, despite his damn name! I felt like a fool when I finally realized.

I don't want to change the color of my skin. I just want a starship. That's the great equalizer.

What does a god need with a starship?

 

[Sol..]

beyonsay don't bleach its just that she got a lil indian creole in her. Das why she got dat good hair.

 

[Kenka]

Late to the party but to me this is a questionable attitude from Shah Rukh. He is orginally from Peshawar which explains why he has a fair complexion to begin with. He probably doesn't use any of these products so he is in no position to pretend they actually serve their purpose.

Then the purpose itself: why do you advocate a beauty canon when more than half of your countrymen have a dark tan and have them spend money in dubious cosmetics while they could use it in a more proper way (we are talking about India, a country in which the annual medium income is lower than 4'000$). Using your enormous follower base to make a few bucks through advertising this product/whitening mentality is not what I would consider model behaviour.

 

[grumble]

On one hand, I agree with this.

On the other, a significant portion of the people engaging in this behavior aren't doing so because they're making rational independent choices, but because of a deep seeded lack of self esteem perpetuated by a white culture that sees lighter skin as more beautiful and darker or black skin as bad or ugly.

I still think it should be allowed, mind you. I just see how it perpetuates Eurocentric standards of beauty. I'd look for ways to move culture away from a Eurocentric standard of beauty generally rather than target this behavior specifically.

I disagree. Many cultures prior to exposure to white culture have held that lighter skin tones were more attractive. The idea behind it in some places is that the darker, more tanned look was for outdoor labourers, and that people with lighter skin tones were the upper class who stayed indoors or under shade. This is popular in southeast asia.

On another note, I've heard that the caste system in India has historically had a measure of genetic basis, with lighter skin tones correlating with higher castes. The whole labour/upper class thing also happened?

Even in european cultures, fair skin has been seen to be quite attractive during many eras, for the same reason. Fair = rich.

That being said, the idea that fair skin = white worship buys into progressive talking points and it's an easy thing to believe. I'm sure it's true for some people bleaching themselves.

 

[chronos4590]

This is true, but historically there was more of a class element to it rather than a race element. Those who were rich could live indoors rather than work out in the fields. Sort of like being tanned took over in the 20th century for white people since it now meant you could afford to go on a holiday and not work. People are ridiculous.

Its certainly a big class problem all over the world depending on where you are in the world. Like in the US People who consider themselves middle class or would want to look middle class might want to go tanning now so it looks like they came back from a vacation or can afford to go tanning, compared to the past where the rich didn't want to look tan because it would imply they had to work outside and not look like the "working class". Its interesting from a class perspective how things can sometimes shift and could keep changing in its weird twisted way

 

[whatsinaname]

On another note, I've heard that the caste system in India has historically had a measure of genetic basis, with lighter skin tones correlating with higher castes. The whole labour/upper class thing also happened?

The caste system originated from economic classifications that were used back in 1000 BC and was not by parentage. The four classes were scholars, bureaucracy/rulers, businessmen and manual workers. That changed over time into what it is today, with caste coming from your parent's caste and people only marrying within their castes.

Some Indians claim that the caste system was codified by the British but I think that is just bullshit. (Trying to abandon ownership of a fucked up system).

 

[Dark Octave]

The grass is greener on the other side for some people.

Whites want to get darker and blacks want to get lighter. I think part of it is the need to stand out in the crowd but no doubt there may be other issues as well.

 

[justjohn]

My wife, who is white, looks middle eastern due to some South American or African genes at some point in her bloodline on her dad's side.

She started using skin whitening stuff after getting probed at every airport checkpoint after 9/11. I feel embarrassed for her. If I was her, I would have started wearing a burqua and really started making those idiots nervous. I hate, hate, hate profiling.

Im also white but due to some african bloodline on both my parents side I look black.

 

[Ahasverus]

It was just an observation of the album covers, and I even said it was up to "you" to judge for yourself, but I suppose if you want candids...

Funny, she was a beautifuk black woman, now an average white one.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

It's pretty ridiculous.
All skin colors are beautiful, whether you're pale white or pure ebony black.

 

[Dark Octave]

Funny, she was a beautifuk black woman, now an average white one.

You do understand how your post sounds like you're saying that a beautiful black woman = an average white woman?

 

[Pein]

me being a dark skinned indian I get flack from my own family for being too dark, I spent a lot of time outside with no sunblock. I wish I was a couple shades lighter.

 

[Kenka]

me being a dark skinned indian I get flack from my own family for being too dark, I spent a lot of time outside with no sunblock. I wish I was a couple shades lighter.

Hope the humans can get rid of whitism. It's embarassing for us as a species.

 

[Dali]

I think a nice brown is beautiful. A lot of Indian, Pakistani, and Ethiopians have that really lovely tone and it kills me so many of them ruin it. It's similar to the tone and complexion scary spice and that girl from boy meets world had. Many have lovely features as well which is really the key to beauty in my eyes. I mean Sammy Sosa can bleach until he's transparent but he'll still be an ugly dude. Skin tone is secondary to nice features. Tyresee, Tyson B., and Taye Diggs just look at Sammy and laugh.

You do understand how your post sounds like you're saying that a beautiful black woman = an average white woman?

I didn't read it that way at all. I read it was during the transformation to white she lost a lot of what made her beautiful to him and now she's just average.

 

[Cagey]

In the US or Europe you could accurately describe this as fixation on a Eurocentric beauty standard, but in application worldwide, it's pretty damn Eurocentric to believe it's a Eurocentric phenomenon.

EDIT:

That stuff is huuuuuuugely popular here in Vietnam. A lot of women think the worst thing in the world is a tan. Some status nonsense about darker skin meaning you have to work in the sun all day and lighter skin meaning you're more well off.
Every skin product here has whitener in it. The sunscreen too. It's one of the things we warn all new ex pats about.

That theory is where the term "blueblood" comes from: the nobility had the blueness of their veins prominently displayed in their arms because, never having to partake in the menial labor of the common folk, their skin remained very light.

 

[kaioshade]

It is embarrassing.

Considering i used to heavily consider bleaching my skin, and even went through with one "treatment". It is crazy how perceptions of beauty can screw with people.

 

[Dark Octave]

I didn't read it that way at all. I read it was during the transformation to white she lost a lot of what made her beautiful to him and now she's just average.

So now he's saying that black is more beautiful than white?

 

[GungHo]

You do understand how your post sounds like you're saying that a beautiful black woman = an average white woman?

Eh... it reads to me that he's saying a beautiful black woman > an average white woman.

So now he's saying that black is more beautiful than white?

Are you high?

 

[Dark Octave]

Eh... it reads to me that he's saying a beautiful black woman > an average white woman.


Are you high?

Means "joking".

Some of you are incredible.

 

[maxxpower]

Being a hispanic living in a city where the population is 99% white I do sometimes wish I was just a bit lighter so I wouldn't stand out as much. I'm not really that brown. I'm somewhere in between brown and white but it's still enough to stand out, and I'm sure the white women in my city don't really find me all that attractive.

 

[Avixph]

Being a hispanic living in a city where the population is 99% white I do sometimes wish I was just a bit lighter so I wouldn't stand out as much. I'm not really that brown. I'm somewhere in between brown and white but it's still enough to stand out, and I'm sure the white women in my city don't really find me all that attractive.

Which city?

 

[astroturfing]

beyonsay don't bleach its just that she got a lil indian creole in her. Das why she got dat good hair.

 

[golduck342]

This is my take, also it's really depressing seeing people go from beautiful and dark skinned to some weird shade and just wrong.

I can't believe this...

 

[Koomaster]

I think it's fine for people to do it if they want. However I think the results are so skewed and people don't realize they could end up looking worse. Some people just don't look good with lighter skin period. Then you'll also get variances where it wasn't done correctly. Just like people get bad plastic surgery you can end up with a bad skin lightening and then it's permanent.

I think Beyonce's skin looks great being lighter even though she looked great before as well. But not everyone is Beyonce nor could afford the expensive treatments/make-up that makes her look the way she does. Any regular person trying to get their skin lightened will not have the same results. So I think it's bad in that regard, people will get their hopes up and it's probably not going to turn out how they wanted.

 

[Slayven]

I spent many years, probably decades, thinking the Silver Surfer was supposed to be colored pure white because of the limitations of comic printing. This, despite his damn name! I felt like a fool when I finally realized.

You thinking of the Hulk, who was grey because they couldn't do green or something for his first few appearances.

 

[TrutaS]

If they believe they look better that way and don't hurt anyone directly then they are free to choose whichever shade of skin they like best. I can understand however the wasted potential these celebritries inherently had to give a good example to their fans. But people have the right to reject such responsibility.

 

[Yamauchi]

I disagree. I am not a big fan of accepting what genetics has thrust upon us. I believe in a future where humans will be fully pliable and mold into whatever form we want. I mean, we don't bitch about tattooing anymore and that is far more extreme and permanent.

I am sorry if my last comment came off as abrasive. I am not like most people in that I am not trying to impose my beliefs on anyone. You can lighten or darken your skin all you want, or get tattoos, or pierce yourself all over, or whatever. I personally think all those look like shit, but if that's what makes someone happy, that's great.

 

[ShinNL]

On one hand, I agree with this.

On the other, a significant portion of the people engaging in this behavior aren't doing so because they're making rational independent choices, but because of a deep seeded lack of self esteem perpetuated by a white culture that sees lighter skin as more beautiful and darker or black skin as bad or ugly.

I still think it should be allowed, mind you. I just see how it perpetuates Eurocentric standards of beauty. I'd look for ways to move culture away from a Eurocentric standard of beauty generally rather than target this behavior specifically.

Ehm, actually, there are Asians with fair skin tones as well. It doesn't have to be Western worship, it can also be to look more Oriental.

Edit: Oof, read the rest of the thread. It sounds so strange to me that if a darker Asian tries to look more fair, a white person posts about how they want to look more like them (euro centric). Unless they bleach their hair and put on eye color lenses, that's quite the ignorant thing to say...

I understand if you think that way if you only consider black people (even then black people also come in many different shades, and maybe people want to look more golden colored rather than white).

 

[adamsappel]

You thinking of the Hulk, who was grey because they couldn't do green or something for his first few appearances.

No, the Silver Surfer might have blue or grey shadows, but he is predominantly colored white in the comics. Yellow can easily substitute for gold, but it's hard to portray the color silver. In my mind I never connected his name with his "costume." It probably wasn't until Terminator 2 that I realized what he was supposed to look like. And I was a huge Surfer fan!



Many different cultures have adopted the "light skin = non-working elite" belief, although the US later adopted the idea that a tan signified you had enough leisure time to spend at the beach and were part of the "jet set."

 

[Kinyou]

So is this stuff permanent?

 

[kaioshade]

Ehm, actually, there are Asians with fair skin tones as well. It doesn't have to be Western worship, it can also be to look more Oriental.

The point still stands. Light = good. Dark = bad

 

[Count Dookkake]

Eh, people tan.

 

[Loofy]

White people have been 'bleaching' their skin for centuries too..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_bath

 

[ShinNL]

The point still stands. Light = good. Dark = bad

No it does not. My genes are from Hong Kong, how is that even Eurocentric? The further you go south in Asia the lighter the people are. To me, as an Asian, if a white person says to an Asian "you want to look like me" when they actually haven't even considered that at all, sounds ignorant to me. The second part of Opiate's post is incorrect.

 

[phosphor112]

lighten up

 

[kaioshade]

No it does not. My genes are from Hong Kong, how is that even Eurocentric? The further you go south in Asia the lighter the people are. To me, as an Asian, if a white person says to an Asian "you want to look like me" when they actually haven't even considered that at all, sounds ignorant to me. The second part of Opiate's post is incorrect.

He means Eurocentric standards of Beauty. As in How mainly europeans view beauty. Asians are USUALLY fair skinned, traits that fit in with the eurocentric view.

 

[ShinNL]

He means Eurocentric standards of Beauty. As in How mainly europeans view beauty. Asians are USUALLY fair skinned, traits that fit in with the eurocentric view.

This post doesn't quite make sense, since the Eurocentric standards of Beauty™ is often not to encourage super paleness. You're not arguing for arguing sakes right now, I hope?

And by the way, "Asians are USUALLY fair skinned" is quite incorrect, unless you want to count out the majority of mainland China, India, Indonesia, etc...

 

[kaioshade]

This post doesn't quite make sense, since the Eurocentric standards of Beauty™ is often not to encourage super paleness. You're not arguing for arguing sakes right now, I hope?

Not at all. Just trying (and apparently failing horribly) to explain a position.