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[xelios]

Someone's skin color really is a pretty inherently large part of their physical presence and if they're going to permanently change it because , how is it not self-loathing?

Is a sex change always self-loathing? Yeah, I went there, and I feel it's a valid question for you. Most people would agree that your sex is a big part of who you are--bigger even than skin color--but as making changes to that is a rather protected right here on GAF, most people wouldn't (shouldn't) agree with your blanket statement on changing inherent physical characteristics being a form of self-loathing across the board.

I know at least one person posting in this thread (not you) who vehemently crusades for being comfortable with your body when it comes to gender identity and whatever permanent physical transformations that entails (and I agree with them there), yet they seem to be generalizing these skin color transformations as so terrible, so tragic. I disagree.

The reasons why most of these bleachings happen are terrible and tragic as adequately described already--that black people are made to feel inferior by society from an early age while having to see all these beautiful white celebrities glorified in the media, to see that life is generally much easier as a white person etc.--but I'm not going to generalize it all as self-loathing or a travesty; some people just want to be in the body they feel happiest in, and it's not always because the world made them feel that way is better. Even if that is why they did it, until we can change that society sends some terribly unhealthy messages to females and minorities, I'd rather these people be happy with themselves than miserable. If they can come about that no other way I'm just happy for them if they finally reach that point.

 

[Winterfang]

I have personally yet to meet someone who's bleached their skin that hasn't had deep seeded hate/self esteem issues, minus people with actual skin disorders.



Not completely, statistically there aren't nearly enough black dudes dating white women/hispanic/asian/middle eastern women to make up the contrast that is single black female.

There are alot more factors involved with so many of them being single. It ranges from perceived standards, media portrayal, teenage pregnancies and the men running out, etc. "All the good black men are taken/dating other ethnicities" is basically a cop out.

What about the Ghetto Stereotype? Ghettoness (not a word) is a big deal breaker for me, so as racist as this sounds, you can show me a picture of two identical black females and you tell me one is African American and the other Hispanic and I'll probably date the later.

I'm assuming there's other people that don't give them a chance either =/.

 

[jonezer4]

Lots of light people want to be darker. Lots of dark people want to be lighter. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence I guess.

 

[Nesotenso]

And Southeast Asia. In SE Asia dark skin is associated with working outside (being a farmer) and, therefore, the lower class. (It's the same origin of long fingernails in the West. You'll find in some countries around the world even men have long fingernails just to say, hey, look, I don't have to get my hands dirty farming.) I assume it's probably similar in other regions. In Indonesia every facial cleaning product for women has some skin lightening qualities to it.

I've always had this crazy idea that -- I don't know -- dark or light, maybe we should just accept our skin color.

kinda of the same reason in South and East Asia.

 

[Nesotenso]

Shahrukh Khan? NO!!!

I really liked that guy.

What a disgraceful thing to endorse.

I am not sure South Asian society views it as disgraceful.

 

[Nemesis_]

Lots of light people want to be darker. Lots of dark people want to be lighter. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence I guess.

People always want what they can't have. It's Psychology 101.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I've always had this crazy idea that -- I don't know -- dark or light, maybe we should just accept our skin color.

I disagree. I am not a big fan of accepting what genetics has thrust upon us. I believe in a future where humans will be fully pliable and mold into whatever form we want. I mean, we don't bitch about tattooing anymore and that is far more extreme and permanent.

 

[Spinluck]

Both look vastly better on the second pictures.

Nope.gif

 

[Rocket Punch]

Where's that amazing gif that botty did of Bleachonce?

 

[Davidion]

Is a sex change always self-loathing? Yeah, I went there, and I feel it's a valid question for you. Most people would agree that your sex is a big part of who you are--bigger even than skin color--but as making changes to that is a rather protected right here on GAF, most people wouldn't (shouldn't) agree with your blanket statement on changing inherent physical characteristics being a form of self-loathing across the board.

I know at least one person posting in this thread (not you) who vehemently crusades for being comfortable with your body when it comes to gender identity and whatever permanent physical transformations that entails (and I agree with them there), yet they seem to be generalizing these skin color transformations as so terrible, so tragic. I disagree.

The reasons why most of these bleachings happen are terrible and tragic as adequately described already--that black people are made to feel inferior by society from an early age while having to see all these beautiful white celebrities glorified in the media etc.--but I'm not going to generalize it all as self-loathing or a travesty; some people just want to be in the body they feel happiest in, and it's not always because the world made them feel that way is better. Even if that is why they did it, until we can change that society sends some terribly unhealthy messages to females and minorities, I'd rather these people be happy with themselves than miserable, and if they can come about that no other way I'm just happy for them if they finally reach that point.

I'm to blame for not explaining myself clearer, but my original comment lumped S-L with a specific eurocentric attitude, and I'm more critical about the cultural attitude.

But back to the subject: how is gender change anything but self-loathing? They hate their (self) gender or physical shells. But this isn't inherently bad, following the caveat I provided above. Going back to the marketing aspect of skin whitening/bleaching, gender dysphoria or at least the discomfort with one's own born gender, unless I'm seriously misinformed, is an innately unbearable discomfort and not driven by marketing and cultural pressures. That's a key difference.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I'm sorry but the comparison with gender is completely different. Especially the persecution vast majority of transgenders will face after they change their gender. There are people who change sex because they feel like they're female or male and their change has nothing to do with societal pressures, and there are many who change because of having both male and female genitalia and others change because their bodies produce more estrogen or testosterone than the other. I wouldn't call any of that "self loathing" there is such a thing as feeling like a female but being a male. There isn't such a thing as "feeling light skin" but having dark skin. The notion of white being beautiful and black being ugly is purely a social construct. Where as the feeling of being a female is something that is very real and there have been studies that show men who feel they're female have brain activity that are more closely related to females and vice versa. You're not going to find a lot of men who go "ARRGH I hate my penis! I hate being a man! I don't necessarily feel like a female, I just hate being male! I'm switching!"
Sorry I just don't think the two are remotely related in the self loathing department.

What about the Ghetto Stereotype? Ghettoness (not a word) is a big deal breaker for me, so as racist as this sounds, you can show me a picture of two identical black females and you tell me one is African American and the other Hispanic and I'll probably date the later.

I'm assuming there's other people that don't give them a chance either =/.

Yea...that's basically kinda fullblown stereotyping. You're now assuming all black females are inherently ghetto. Ghettoness is totally not genetic I promise. Unfortunately most people think it is and is another reason why black women have trouble finding dates. Same thing applies to African American men, we show any hint of aggression and it's suddenly "ANGRY BLACK MAN" time and people get scared, it's 2013 time to start treating people as individuals instead of stereotypes.

Black latinas go through the same shit as African American females, hell black Hispanics in general go through the same shit; hatred because of skin tone out the ass, horrible stereotypes that make it that much harder, the notion that light is right being ever prevalent.

 

[BadAss2961]

Nope.gif

Boy Meets World girl doesn't even look right anymore.

 

[neojubei]

No need for research, it looks fine.

I could work with that

 

[xelios]

But back to the subject: how is gender change anything but self-loathing? They hate their (self) gender or physical shells. Going back to the marketing aspect of skin whitening/bleaching, gender dysphoria or at least the discomfort with one's own born gender, unless I'm seriously misinformed, is not driven by marketing and cultural pressures. That's a key difference.

You're mostly right on the latter statement but egregiously wrong with the "how is gender change anything but self-loathing" part.

 

[Steelrain]

Whatever. It's their bodies.

As long as they can look at themselves in the morning without hating themselves it's good for them.

 

[Davidion]

You're mostly right on the latter statement but egregiously wrong with the "how is gender change anything but self-loathing" part.

Read my edit for some clarification. It's a categorical, even technical definition; what about it is not the hate of a major part of one-self? I understand that transgendered folk may deny that the physical aspects they were born with is really a part of their selves in the first place, but I feel like that's getting into its own subject altogether and certainly has no bearing on the skin bleaching conversation. Otherwise I'm more than willing to learn from an explanation.

 

[odiin]

What about colloidal silver?

I just blue myself.

 

[jaxword]

Don't get any foreign/non-US ones, they're known to have mercury in them. Also I noticed it's a drink and not a cream, seems even more bullshit-y.

Thanks for the advice. Know of any that DO work?

 

[twofold]

And Southeast Asia. In SE Asia dark skin is associated with working outside (being a farmer) and, therefore, the lower class. (It's the same origin of long fingernails in the West. You'll find in some countries around the world even men have long fingernails just to say, hey, look, I don't have to get my hands dirty farming.) I assume it's probably similar in other regions. In Indonesia every facial cleaning product for women has some skin lightening qualities to it.

I've always had this crazy idea that -- I don't know -- dark or light, maybe we should just accept our skin color.

A lot of mens products have skin whitening properties, too.

I've lived for nearly 3 years in South East Asia and I put off using the whitening products for the longest time because I didn't like the idea behind them. They don't do much other than make your skin look brighter and clearer, though. I've been using them for about 18 months now and my skin is the same colour as it was before I started using them.

 

[Leucrota]

What doesn't kill you makes you whiter

 

[Winterfang]

Yea...that's basically kinda fullblown stereotyping. You're now assuming all black females are inherently ghetto. Ghettoness is totally not genetic I promise. Unfortunately most people think it is and is another reason why black women have trouble finding dates. Same thing applies to African American men, we show any hint of aggression and it's suddenly "ANGRY BLACK MAN" time and people get scared.

Black latinas go through the same shit as African American females, hell black Hispanics in general go through the same shit; hatred because of skin tone out the ass, horrible stereotypes that make it that much harder, the notion that light is right being ever prevalent.

I'm a Black Hispanic and I look pretty non threatening. If I looked white, no one would assume I'm a good dancer and I wouldn't had to embarrass myself.

 

[chronos4590]

I see devo already mentioned it with the dolls but Here is a video of the experiment. ->"The Clark Experiment

Regardless of western exposure or influence of trying to appear more "white" or not which is infact true and a big form of internalized oppression by trying to fit into the more euro centric form of beauty. It doesn't matter. There are plenty of people who are darker skinned form all nations and they're beautiful as they are. Skin bleaching is a sad problem all over the world. All shades of color are beautiful. sadly in our society we are living in its not seen that way by many

 

[Devolution]

Thanks for the advice. Know of any that DO work?

To be honest no, I only know of the health warnings surrounding the foreign kinds.

 

[UltimaKilo]

Any white people doing this? Anyways, any girl I'm with better not have any brown on her asshole, prefer it not even be "same color".

 

[Parallax]

Any white people doing this? Anyways, any girl I'm with better not have any brown on her asshole, prefer it not even be "same color".

...what?

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

One of the best singers and most successful artist in pop music, Beyonce Knowles, has often been accused of bleaching her skin to appear lighter. While we will never really know if it is true or not, I own all of her albums and have noticed some changes in her skin tone. It could be make up, or just her tanning... but I'll let you guys judge for yourself.


2003

2006

2008

2011

I think she is gorgeous regardless, though.

Beyonce does not Bleach

she's a victim of over Photoshop in pictures

 

[chronos4590]

Skin bleaching could help someone like me be more attractive especially in the gay world.

Hmmm not the gay world I'm living in. Unless you're looking for abercrombie models( which is boring and imo perpetrates self image on body image and potentially even racially generally speaking but that's another story). If a fellow guy isn't gonna like to talk to me for my shade of Color our conversation is OVER. This is something mainstream media has failed us in not only our community but everywhere. The idea of standardization of beauty and the lengths people go to obtain them is really sad.

Edit: neojubei You should be fine the way you are. If someone won't accept you for who you are in terms of skin. They're going to find something else to pick at you for you to change, until you're not the same person you were. No man is worth that

 

[Wuthering_Heights]

It's my sexy body, I'll do what I want.

 

[Chuck Norris]

On one hand, I agree with this.

On the other, a significant portion of the people engaging in this behavior aren't doing so because they're making rational independent choices, but because of a deep seeded lack of self esteem perpetuated by a white culture that sees lighter skin as more beautiful and darker or black skin as bad or ugly.

I still think it should be allowed, mind you. I just see how it perpetuates Eurocentric standards of beauty. I'd look for ways to move culture away from a Eurocentric standard of beauty generally rather than target this behavior specifically.

Lighter skin has been seen as an element of beauty in many cultures for centuries, and has nothing to do with Eurocentric standards. Eurocentric standards would have white people tanning to be darker. If anything the lightening and darkening of skin reflects and "ideal" tone that people would like to achieve. Nothing wrong with that, just an element of evolutionary standards

 

[speculawyer]

That was an awesome scene in that much under-appreciated good movie. (Three Kings)

 

[pants]

Eh, it's the same as dying your hair, getting a tattoo or any other vanity alteration really. Cant say I like it though

 

[computers putin']

Beyonce does not Bleach

she's a victim of over Photoshop in pictures

I agree

Skin looks like it always did here.

 

[Vazra]

If people doesnt like you for your skin tone they are ignorants and racists. Then again how is someone gonna be attracted to yourself if you are not even comfortable with yourself. I lost tons of weight before to feel better and attract people but in the end I felt the same no difference.

In order to get people to like you the thing you need to do is be confident in yourself, love yourself. Changing your skin tone, losing weight or changing your hair style wont do shit if your self esteem its on the floor and youll keep looking at things to feel bad about yourself. You can bleach for yourself but bleaching in order to attract peers isnt the right reason for the change.

 

[xelios]

Read my edit for some clarification. It's a categorical, even technical definition; what about it is not the hate of a major part of one-self? I understand that transgendered folk may deny that the physical aspects they were born with is really a part of their selves in the first place, but I feel like that's getting into its own subject altogether and certainly has no bearing on the skin bleaching conversation. Otherwise I'm more than willing to learn from an explanation.

Perhaps you have your own, technical meaning when you say self-loathing, but in the disparaging manner it's traditionally used I disagree that changing your physical characteristics to be more comfortable in your body constitutes self-loathing across the board. If by self-loathing you mean they simply hate a physical characteristic, then fine, but its usage usually implies something much deeper than that. In the case of skin bleaching I don't believe all those who do it necessarily hate being black or black culture, want to belong to another race or group, to escape stereotypes--whatever; sometimes people just don't like their appearance.

But yes, moving towards derail I suppose, so I'll just leave it at that and at what I've previously posted.

 

[EYEL1NER]

Extremely common in the Philippines too. I noticed it creates a very pale, unnatural look

My wife goes to a Fil-Am store in town and buys skin-whitening soap. She's been using types of products like that her whole life and I tell her she is crazy for it and that it doesn't even work on her but it's hard for me to overcome what has been drilled into her head from her upbringing since day one. She gets upset in the summer when she is out in the sun for long periods of time also, because she says it will make her skin darker and pangit.
Eh, what can you do though? I certainly tell her enough that she is beautiful as-is, so it isn't like I making her feel unattractive or anything.

One of the women who came to the country and joined her bible study (of pretty much all filipinos) has extremely pale skin, very light pink and bright white. Upon being introduced to her for the first time, all the women raved non-stop about how beautiful her skin was and how maganda she is. My wife was telling me one time and I looked at her and said "Are you kidding me? She looks like a ghost! I can almost see through her!!!" I was told that I was wrong.

 

[HiiiLife]

I get pretty white when I smoke too much weed. That's about it.

 

[jaxword]

My wife goes to a Fil-Am store in town and buys skin-whitening soap. She's been using types of products like that her whole life and I tell her she is crazy for it and that it doesn't even work on her but it's hard for me to overcome what has been drilled into her head from her upbringing since day one. She gets upset in the summer when she is out in the sun for long periods of time also, because she says it will make her skin darker and pangit.
Eh, what can you do though? I certainly tell her enough that she is beautiful as-is, so it isn't like I making her feel unattractive or anything.

One of the women who came to the country and joined her bible study (of pretty much all filipinos) has extremely pale skin, very light pink and bright white. Upon being introduced to her for the first time, all the women raved non-stop about how beautiful her skin was and how maganda she is. My wife was telling me one time and I looked at her and said "Are you kidding me? She looks like a ghost! I can almost see through her!!!" I was told that I was wrong.

Does the skin-whitening soap work? What does the Filipino lady use?

 

[EYEL1NER]

Does the skin-whitening soap work? What does the Filipino lady use?

The stuff my wife buys doesn't seem to work; I've never noticed her skin getting lighter from it. She buys some bar of soap and then her mother in the PI and sister in Japan send her different lotions. He skin looks the same color to me as the day I met her.
She uses this sometimes: Likas Papaya Skin Whitening Herbal Soap. And she uses some other stuff that says "Placenta" somewhere on the box, I think it might one of these.
I don't think they are working on her but she swears up and down that they do and that she needs to buy and use them.

As for the woman I was talking about, I don't think she uses anything. I think her skin is just super-light and pale (I saw a couple people with skin similar to hers while in the Philippines, guys that were whiter than me. I assumed they had a medical condition or something). It just surprised me that all the other women were so damn envious of her skin.

 

[akira28]

I don't want to change the color of my skin. I just want a starship. That's the great equalizer.

 

[akira28]

. Nothing wrong with that, just an element of evolutionary standards

Culture standards, not evolutionary ones.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

There isn't such a thing as "feeling light skin" but having dark skin.

Thanks for just deciding this. Anything else you'd to clear up while we're here?

 

[Angelus Errare]

Thanks for just deciding this. Anything else you'd to clear up while we're here?

Yea, you incapable of actually countering the point but instead going for the attempted smart ass angle, it didn't really work out how you imagined unfortunately.

 

[Dead Man]

I see devo already mentioned it with the dolls but Here is a video of the experiment. ->"The Clark Experiment

Regardless of western exposure or influence of trying to appear more "white" or not which is infact true and a big form of internalized oppression by trying to fit into the more euro centric form of beauty. It doesn't matter. There are plenty of people who are darker skinned form all nations and they're beautiful as they are. Skin bleaching is a sad problem all over the world. All shades of color are beautiful. sadly in our society we are living in its not seen that way by many

This is true, but historically there was more of a class element to it rather than a race element. Those who were rich could live indoors rather than work out in the fields. Sort of like being tanned took over in the 20th century for white people since it now meant you could afford to go on a holiday and not work. People are ridiculous.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Yea, you incapable of actually countering the point but instead going for the attempted smart ass angle, it didn't really work out how you imagined unfortunately.

Hmm, nope it worked out pretty much exactly as I imagined.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Hmm, nope it worked out pretty much exactly as I imagined.

Obviously.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Obviously.

I don't expect to convince people over the internet that they don't get to decide what are "things" and what aren't. I think that realisation probably has to come from the person themselves. And I know no one enjoys having it pointed out that their argument hinges on them simply declaring "well, that's not a thing". So your hostile reaction was fairly predictable.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I don't expect to convince people over the internet that they don't get to decide what are "things" and what aren't. I think that realisation probably has to come from the person themselves. And I know no one enjoys having it pointed out that their argument hinges on them simply declaring "well, that's not a thing". So your hostile reaction was fairly predictable.

If that makes you feel better about it man that's cool.

 

[EYEL1NER]

There isn't such a thing as "feeling light skin" but having dark skin.

Gender dysphoria (that is the proper term?) might not be the greatest comparison but what about something like Body Integrity Identity Disorder?
I mean, if there are people out there who think they should only have 3 limbs or something and that they should have a limb amputated to feel complete or 'normal,' then it would not surprise me in the least for such a thing as "feeling light skin but having dark skin" to exist.

 

[Trojita]

My wife goes to a Fil-Am store in town and buys skin-whitening soap. She's been using types of products like that her whole life and I tell her she is crazy for it and that it doesn't even work on her but it's hard for me to overcome what has been drilled into her head from her upbringing since day one. She gets upset in the summer when she is out in the sun for long periods of time also, because she says it will make her skin darker and pangit.
Eh, what can you do though? I certainly tell her enough that she is beautiful as-is, so it isn't like I making her feel unattractive or anything.

One of the women who came to the country and joined her bible study (of pretty much all filipinos) has extremely pale skin, very light pink and bright white. Upon being introduced to her for the first time, all the women raved non-stop about how beautiful her skin was and how maganda she is. My wife was telling me one time and I looked at her and said "Are you kidding me? She looks like a ghost! I can almost see through her!!!" I was told that I was wrong.

Wait, did you get married to the sister of the Juicy girl?

 

[ComputerMKII]

Why would this not be allowed?