Slate: Here's Why Tipping Should Be Banned

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.GqueB. said:
Which is why tipping can't be banned. Until this very basic problem is fixed none of the other shit matters. It's barely worth discussing.
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It's absolutely worth discussing. As pressure is placed on the economy to make up income differences, the tips system is only going to continue warping. We've already seen the expected rate go up *and* more types of businesses try to get it.

Right now tipping is just a lever; a patch. It's a tool for businesses to lower payroll without entering a blood feud with employees that could only lead to more unions. You're right that those solutions are political firestorms, things no politician in our systems would be willing to do.

But at some point either we legislate a solution or it will eventually enter the absurd and we can all have this thread again about "those annoying 35% tips".
 
Petrie said:
I make that much because I am fucking awesome at my job, and typically can handle a larger workload/larger station than most.
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so why would you be scared about removing what is effectively mandatory tipping? If you're great you'll still get great tips.
 
Petrie said:
If I was paid a "fair wage" I wouldn't be able to make $25+ an hour after taxes bartending or waiting tables.

Fuck that noise.
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If youre making 25 an hour than I'm probably tipping you too much to tell a cook 4 seconds worth of information and walking 40 feet to hand me a plate and a cup full of water.
 
mrklaw said:
so why would you be scared about removing what is effectively mandatory tipping? If you're great you'll still get great tips.
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I will make less if tipping isn't the primary way people expect me to make money. You're assuming if the system changed in the way you describe that everyone would still tip, and as well. Instead I believe they will assume my wage takes care of me, even if it does not compensate me as well.

That's something I simply don't want to see happen. Not worth the risk to my wallet.

SlackAdjuster said:
If youre making 25 an hour than I'm probably tipping you too much to tell a cook 4 seconds worth of information and walking 40 feet to hand me a plate and a cup full of water.
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If that's all I did, I wouldn't make the money I do.
 
Courage said:
Yeah, it'd be much simpler if restaurants actually paid their employees what they deserved.
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Yup but we can't have that because then businesses would only make a moderate profit instead of an insane profit. These owners need their BMWs. I mean you wouldn't want them driving last years model would you?

Seriously though I agree. It's bullshit that you don't pay someone what they should be paid because god forbid some people are nice and tip them. That's why if I ran a restaurant I'd pay my employees fairly and forbid customers from tipping. Instead we'd set up a jar that customers could take what they would tip and donate to the charity we'd be raising funds for. Course I'd also be nice and actually have health insurance for my employees too because I believe like Sam Walton did that if you treat your employees well they'll do the best job they can do for you and want to work for you.
 
PsychoRaven said:
Yup but we can't have that because then businesses would only make a moderate profit instead of an insane profit. These owners need their BMWs. I mean you wouldn't want them driving last years model would you?

Seriously though I agree. It's bullshit that you don't pay someone what they should be paid because god forbid some people are nice and tip them. That's why if I ran a restaurant I'd pay my employees fairly and forbid customers from tipping. Instead we'd set up a jar that customers could take what they would tip and donate to the charity we'd be raising funds for.
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You'd end up with only the worst staff available. The good staff with take jobs at places where they got tipped and made far more money. All you'd get would be the scraps.
 
demon said:
That's interesting, never thought of that. How often do places like this make their $2/hr tipped employees do shit like this where they're not getting any tips?
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When I worked at Applebees it was a hour before morning shift and around a hour after the shift before you could leave, and at least two hours after night shift (sometimes three) of making two dollars and some change.

Worst part was the manager would sometimes clock you out himself during night shift, meaning sometimes you would do a hour of work for no pay.
 
If they actually paid servers what an owner would consider a "fair wage" it would be considerably less than what they make with tips.

Owners would also then start messing with people's hours so they would never under any circumstances have to pay a server overtime.
 
Petrie said:
You'd end up with only the worst staff available. The good staff with take jobs at places where they got tipped and made far more money. All you'd get would be the scraps.
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No I wouldn't. Because if you treat your employees well and they don't have to worry about making a decent wage they'll do a good job for you. I've seen it work with other restaurants. So I know it would work.
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
I'm sure all the other workers who aren't so lucky will rest easy knowing that you're making bank off their lack of income security.
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I don't know who these people are, but they must be really bad at their jobs. The only people who seem to clamor for this are people not employed in such jobs, or who are bad at said jobs so end up working at Applebees.

PsychoRaven said:
No I wouldn't. Because if you treat your employees well and they don't have to worry about making a decent wage they'll do a good job for you. I've seen it work with other restaurants. So I know it would work.
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Until they see how much more money they'd make elsewhere, or you go out of business because you can't compete on price with any of the other establishments.

People don't care as much about this issue as you think, they just want a low price on the menu.
 
MG310 said:
If they actually paid servers what an owner would consider a "fair wage" it would be considerably less than what they make with tips.

Owners would also then start messing with people's hours so they would never under any circumstances have to pay a server overtime.
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None of this is hypothetical. American tipping culture is an anomaly in the developed world and you don't have to try to imagine what it would be like if it was put to an end. You can look at the wage and overtime situations in other countries to get an idea what it's like.
 
MG310 said:
If they actually paid servers what an owner would consider a "fair wage" it would be considerably less than what they make with tips.

Owners would also then start messing with people's hours so they would never under any circumstances have to pay a server overtime.
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Hell if most owners had their way everyone would work for free. Obviously that's why you don't let the owners decide a fair wage. That's where the problem is. So many owners are quick to want something for nothing instead of treating their employees right. It's sad. Treat them like human fucking beings and they'll treat you well too.
 
Petrie said:
You'd end up with only the worst staff available. The good staff with take jobs at places where they got tipped and made far more money. All you'd get would be the scraps.
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I cant speak for the rest of europe, but in sweden we have good service, despite them being payed.
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
None of this is hypothetical. American tipping culture is an anomaly in the developed world and you don't have to try to imagine what it would be like if it was put to an end. You can look at the wage and overtime situations in other countries to get an idea what it's like.
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You can't do that though, because those nations didn't use the system to begin with. You can't assume you'd get the same results from a nation and culture that developed around a system. The situations are not the same.

obin_gam said:
I cant speak for the rest of europe, but in sweden we have good service, despite them being payed.
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Yes with a level playing field. He is saying he'll open a restaurant here where all the other establishments use a tipping system, sand somehow be able to compete.
 
Not for a foreigner to dictate, I see it as a cultural idiosyncrasy. Until the culture changes I'll be throwing in a couple of bucks regardless.
 
Tipping is an odd, emotionally charged topic. I always tip, but I wish that either staff were paid like everyone else, or it was a standard fee that is part of the bill so they don't get stiffed. $2 an hour is ridiculous.
 
It's a broken ass system that does promote racism and profiling. I just want my food with out some kind of moral choice at the end of the meal.

I also have a problem with how much more waitstaff tend to make then anyone actually cooking the food... it also means other waitstaff don't want to help you when your waitperson is off doing godknowsfuckingwhat... because hey.. ain't my tip!

When you go to a finer dining place, you tend to get much better service across the board.. other people help out.. and you'll find the tips are shared.. so that service all around is important.. not just that one table.

Broken system is broken.
 
My first job was at a restaurant, and corporate was just awful. A business shouldn't be allowed to get away with only having to pay their employees $2.63 per hour. Literally the only people making minimum wage was the dishwasher the cooks, and the host. I quit when they announced that bartenders had to split their tips with every other bartender and that servers had to pay out the hosts at the end of the day because host's pay got demoted to $2.63 an hour from min. wage. 2 of the bartenders, a manager, 3 servers, and one of the hosts quit right during that meeting.
 
Only way to stop tipping is to do so federally, as in make some sort of law mandating that restaurant workers be paid in full by their employers.

I always tip, and I always tip well (since I'm a black guy, it's extra important that I not keep the stereotype going)...but I totally understand what this article is saying. We're not going to change the system by not tipping while it's the culture/what's expected, though.
 
Petrie said:
You can't do that though, because those nations didn't use the system to begin with. You can't assume you'd get the same results from a nation and culture that developed around a system. The situations are not the same.
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If 20% of restaurants put a stop to tipping and raise wages instead then you absolutely might see the best workers avoid those restaurants. But that's a problem with half measures. At best you're talking about transitional problems, and arguing that they're so bad nobody should try to change the system.
 
Petrie said:
You can't do that though, because those nations didn't use the system to begin with. You can't assume you'd get the same results from a nation and culture that developed around a system. The situations are not the same.



Yes with a level playing field. He is saying he'll open a restaurant here where all the other establishments use a tipping system, sand somehow be able to compete.
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First off I said I would. Not will. Then if you pay them well and give them some benefits they'll stick with you. I'd give my employees Health insurance. I'd certainly pay them above minimum wage and I'd certainly not give them few hours. You may have fewer employees but if they're working good hours instead of 20 to 25 hours a week, getting benefits, getting paid well for their time, they're going to stick with you and do a good job.
 
Petrie said:
You can't do that though, because those nations didn't use the system to begin with. You can't assume you'd get the same results from a nation and culture that developed around a system. The situations are not the same.



Yes with a level playing field. He is saying he'll open a restaurant here where all the other establishments use a tipping system, sand somehow be able to compete.
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So basically your stance is "never try to change anything because it could be hard" ?
 
PsychoRaven said:
First off I said I would. Not will. Then if you pay them well and give them some benefits they'll stick with you. I'd give my employees Health insurance. I'd certainly pay them above minimum wage and I'd certainly not give them few hours. You may have fewer employees but if they're working good hours instead of 20 to 25 hours a week, getting benefits, getting paid well for their time, they're going to stick with you and do a good job.
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You'd be out of business quickly as your prices would have to be too high to compete.

obin_gam said:
So basically your stance is "never try to change anything because it could be hard" ?
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No, I'm saying why would I want a change that will cause myself and others who are great at what they do to make far less money?
 
captmcblack said:
Only way to stop tipping is to do so federally, as in make some sort of law mandating that restaurant workers be paid in full by their employers.

I always tip, and I always tip well (since I'm a black guy, it's extra important that I not keep the stereotype going)...but I totally understand what this article is saying. We're not going to change the system by not tipping while it's the culture/what's expected, though.
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i've seen a rise in fast-casual restaurants and if that continues it might eventually create some awkward scenario where only a few, higher-end restaurants are expecting tips. it'll be much easier to change federally at that point.
 
obin_gam said:
So basically your stance is "never try to change anything because it could be hard" ?
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Sounds like it. Yea would I make as much as the other guys no but if I did it right and manged my costs effectively then I would still make a profit and have happy employees. The problem now days is businesses are not content to just make money. Now it's always gotta make more and more and more.

As long as my business is making me some profit and it's making more then enough to survive then I'd be happy. It wouldn't be easy obviously. But it's not always about making more money. I'd be making a difference in people's lives who are usually treated like shit by their employers.
 
carfo said:
My first job was at a restaurant, and corporate was just awful. A business shouldn't be allowed to get away with only having to pay their employees $2.63 per hour. Literally the only people making minimum wage was the dishwasher the cooks, and the host. I quit when they announced that bartenders had to split their tips with every other bartender and that servers had to pay out the hosts at the end of the day because host's pay got demoted to $2.63 an hour from min. wage. 2 of the bartenders, a manager, 3 servers, and one of the hosts quit right during that meeting.
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Good on you; that's horrible.

It's interesting to read about the minimum wage disparity among states and compared to Canada. Ontario, for example, has the same "different standards for tipped employees"...but the min wage in those cases is the difference between $8.90 and $10.25 - a huge difference from that $2.63 number you gave. And yet Canada definitely still has forces campaigning for a $14 minimum.

I can say from what I've seen of the restaurant industry that there is definitely plenty of businesses that could fold under wage pressure. If you're not a chain the risks are huge. But I'm more willing to believe in a society that isn't shortchanging its employees than one that needs to cut below the living line to open a restaurant.
 
Petrie said:
It seems like a lot of you don't realize how slim the margins are in restaurants when it comes to food.
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So why are other countries making this work? Where does the profit come from?

I know how, by raising prices. As it should be, of course. Let the worker by paid by his boss, not by willing customers who base their contribution on subjectives and is, inherently, completely flexible.
 
Petrie said:
You'd be out of business quickly as your prices would have to be too high to compete.
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No I wouldn't. There are ways to manage your costs. I've seen it work. There are a few restaurants out there who do this very thing and they're still there and still making money. You under estimate people.

For one most restaurants are very wasteful. If you control your expenses in other ways you can make the difference. Also if you treat your employees and customers great the customer will pay that difference too. That's the secret. at the same time you treat your employees better you have to treat your customers better too. So many businesses you go into and there's no really conversation. It's can I take your order. Then a canned thank you. If you take the time to talk to your customers and make them feel like you honestly care about them they'll be loyal and come back. If the staff talks to them and makes them feel welcomed and respected they'll tell their friends about how you guys treat them so damn great. You really do under estimate people. They'll pay a bit more for good friendly service and good food that isn't just spit out reheated shit.
 
You rely on the kindness of customers when you work as a waiter/waitress/barkeep. I personally don't see how some even make a living. When I worked in the food industry I got paid minimum wage (even as a delivery driver) and the most I ever saw in tips was around $60. Of course I was never a waiter. Waiters only get paid on average $2.50 plus tips. That's worse than telemarketing. I guess if you make tips you might receive a tad more depending on how busy the place is, but with the economy like it is. I rarely tip above 15%.

It's nice they provide the service. But sometimes just paying for my meal is the most gratitude I can afford. I can't always rely on giving the waiter his fare share. Even though I always try to.

I met a barkeeper once and they gloated about all the tips they made, but lacked health insurance. So I don't see the real plus side to it all.
 
Dina said:
So why are other countries making this work? Where does the profit come from?

I know how, by raising prices. As it should be, of course. Let the worker by paid by his boss, not by willing customers who base their contribution on subjectives and is, inherently, completely flexible.
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I don't deny it works other places where it has always been the norm.

I'm saying 2 things: one is you can't alter us from our current system and expect to get the same results, because we aren't starting from the same situation as these other cultures.

And the second is that myself and a large majority of people working in this business don't want to see this change, as we know we'd make far less money. It's a selfish reason, but it's a very valid one.
 
At my wedding last week, the 19% mandatory tip was painful. Nothing like adding a fifth to the cost of every single thing we ordered, over $1000 by the time the night was done. My only complaint to the restaurant was that the tip should be factored into the price of the food (renting the upstairs room+patio is only for events and you get a special event menu with set meals) and not put in some tiny as print at the end. $50 per person is a hell of a lot different from $59.50 per person when you have dozens of people ordering.
 
Believe me, I recognize that most restaurants aren't particularly profitable. It can be a very cutthroat business, and many of them fail.

But this tipping thing isn't some unsolvable math problem. Customers are accustomed to paying a certain amount for their dinner. With the amount that they pay, restaurants are able to survive, and servers are able to make good wages.

If the price of gratuity were automatically factored into menu prices, and the increase in menu prices went directly into employee wages, everything would be the same except without all the discriminatory practices, legal headaches, and annoying customer math that exist now. That transition wouldn't be easy to manage, but I think it'd be a lot better in the end.
 
Midnight Moon said:
My boyfriend would make more money on tips then a base pay working as a server.
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Yeah. Tips benefit everybody involved from the workers to the owners. I seriously don't understand why people want to get rid of tipping. If you really don't like it then just don't leave tips.

The one thing that really bugs me is the notion that tipping is only applicable to restaurants. My mother has owned beauty salons of various sorts for over 20 years and its prevalent in the field. And the level of service you provide does matter, you do a shitty job you get less of a tip.

Also the idea that most restaurant owners and are trying to screw over workers and are are raking it in is beyond delusional.
 
whatsinaname said:
Noodles and Company.
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I'm unfamiliar with them, but this doesn't appear to be a casual sit-down style American restaurant, at least from looking at these small strip mall locations.



I simply maintain regardless that at the end of the day, I want the tipping system to remain in place so I can rake in the cash. Most of you wouldn't take a 50% pay cut for the greater good, and I don't want to either.
 
sonicmj1 said:
Believe me, I recognize that most restaurants aren't particularly profitable. It can be a very cutthroat business, and many of them fail.

But this tipping thing isn't some unsolvable math problem. Customers are accustomed to paying a certain amount for their dinner. With the amount that they pay, restaurants are able to survive, and servers are able to make good wages.

If the price of gratuity were automatically factored into menu prices, and the increase in menu prices went directly into employee wages, everything would be the same except without all the discriminatory practices, legal headaches, and annoying customer math that exist now. That transition wouldn't be easy to manage, but I think it'd be a lot better in the end.
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It would. People would adjust. It has to start somewhere. Slowly you're starting to see it. Like I've said I've seen a few businesses that have started to change things like this and they're making money. Customers come in and they realize that shit I'm getting good service and they're nice and not making me feel like I have to give them a tip or their kid will not eat.
 
sonicmj1 said:
If the price of gratuity were automatically factored into menu prices, and the increase in menu prices went directly into employee wages, everything would be the same except without all the discriminatory practices, legal headaches, and annoying customer math that exist now. That transition wouldn't be easy to manage, but I think it'd be a lot better in the end.
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I'd also like to state here that not including tax in advertised prices is utterly stupid.
 
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