Slate: Here's Why Tipping Should Be Banned

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For who? The mega-chain operating in 50 states? Realistically there is massive duplication in tax rates and 1-2% differences between areas can be compensated for by slightly increasing or decreasing the base price of goods in some areas so the "final price" is the same. Although the idea of cities and states all theoretically having different sales tax rates is some sort of clusterfuck to begin with.

This thread has given me an enormous appreciation for the way in which my country is structured compared to yours.

There is a huge tax difference depending on where you are in the US. Some states have no income tax and just large sales tax. Some cities like NYC have huge both lol. That is what the cash register is for, using dem 1970s era ICs that can add and multiply.
 
My mom used to work as a waitress and she made quite a bit in tips. She would definitely not want to go to a system that paid her a living wage since she would have made less money.
 
Coming from Spain, the American tipping system is one of the most bizarre things ever. I much prefer our old-fashioned ways:

Price: It Includes the waiter expenses (they recieve a fixed salary), it includes taxes (so you don't have to take out your iphone calculator)

Tip: You only tip if you believe that you have recieved an outstanding or extra-friendly service. No moral obligation or whatsoever, you are a regular client if you don't tip, but you became an extra awesome customer if you tip, it will probably grant you a free extra tapa the next time you come to the local

Conclussion: You actually enjoy the end of the meals and stay longer in the restaurant as a result. Cue +1 extra hour of talking with friends, an additional coffe cup ordered, fine brandy drinking, and cigar smoking for good measure in order to finish-off the meal. Seriously, it makes for a better experience overall, which is what restaurants should aim for.
 
Yeah, it'd be much simpler if restaurants actually paid their employees what they deserved.
And give up all that yummy slave labor?

Also delivery people putting wear and tear on their own cars, no need for updating registration or buying gas is a sweet deal or Poppa Johns and Pizza Hut.
 
Minimum wage in a tipping-position =/= the normal minimum wage.

No, they have to make the minimum wage anyways.

The obligation to support the waiter with our tips is a terrible thing. That should be the business' duty, as it is in every other industry. Any tips should be on top of minimum wage in my opinion.

Why?
 
People who stress out about tipping baffle me.

I LOVE tipping!

I get to give a manual laborer cash directly for their job. It's fucking awesome. They make incredible money in the higher end restaurants in my area ($25-$40 an hour).

If you are too poor to tip. You are too poor to eat out. Stay at home.
 
How about a national tipping strike, this would force these restaurants to dip into their own pockets and make up the difference in pay, which we all know won't be enough, which in turn will cause people to quit because of low pay for hard work, which In turn will make the restaurant loose money, which in turn will make them realize they need to up their pay to attract good workers, which in turn will get enough pay to not worry if table 6 is going to tip them, which in turn will make table 6 not worry about the whole tipping issue.

That's a good idea, stick it to the man by sticking it to the people who are only trying to make rent and buy food!!
 
How about a national tipping strike, this would force these restaurants to dip into their own pockets and make up the difference in pay, which we all know won't be enough, which in turn will cause people to quit because of low pay for hard work, which In turn will make the restaurant loose money, which in turn will make them realize they need to up their pay to attract good workers, which in turn will get enough pay to not worry if table 6 is going to tip them, which in turn will make table 6 not worry about the whole tipping issue.
Is there any competent evidence that suggests that waiters, servers and other tipped employees would make more money if tipping went away? I posit the opposite.

You guys just keep posting on this strange belief that waiters don't get paid.
 
Did you read the article at all?

Tipping has been studied empirically and the results show that it's unfair (e.g., biased in favor of certain kinds of servers, irrespective of performance), and not consistently correlated with server performance (which is one of the fundamental principles underlying the practice).

If the system of compensation for servers was constructed from scratch, today, there would be no justification for the use of tipping system. It's a bad system. Some people make a lot more than minimum wage, true, but there are also lots of people who don't have that level of success who are equally deserving based on performance. That's a flawed system.
Cool. So no one makes any money instead of some. "Fairness."
 
Tipping has its downsides to be sure, but I've been around the world and the U.S. generally has the best service I've seen. Not to say it isn't nice to be in a more relaxed environment, but when you have somewhere to be it's really annoying to have to wait 30 minutes for your food and another 30 minutes for your check every time.

If you try to actually get a career in serving and work at really nice restaurants, you can definitely make 6 figures.
 
And give up all that yummy slave labor?

.

Having worked in several restaurants: XFD

When tips are calculated in the waiting staff is almost always the highest paid of the general staff. Talk up the economics of it all you want, but anyone posting in this thread should remember that if anyone is campaigning to keep the system as it is, it's the wait staff.
 
Tipping has its downsides to be sure, but I've been around the world and the U.S. generally has the best service I've seen. Not to say it isn't nice to be in a more relaxed environment, but when you have somewhere to be it's really annoying to have to wait 30 minutes for your food and another 30 minutes for your check every time.

If you try to actually get a career in serving and work at really nice restaurants, you can definitely make 6 figures.

France didn't tip. It also had the worst service I've ever had. I guess you get used to it and I'm sure there is a cultural element regarding how often the server comes by but I didn't like it.
 
Having worked in several restaurants: XFD

When tips are calculated in the waiting staff is almost always the highest paid of the general staff. Talk up the economics of it all you want, but anyone posting in this thread should remember that if anyone is campaigning to keep the system as it is, it's the wait staff.

That's what I'm saying. Its a bunk assumption that waiters are making less than minimum wage. And no, not every patron will tip and some waiters will be stiffed unfairly, but that's what tip pooling is for.
 
Retail employees don't get tipped. I don't buy the work incentive either. Pay a living wage and use bonuses, shifts, demotion/promotions, threat of firing to motivate workers just like every other industry.
 
To those of you who tip based on performance: would you stop tipping if you knew the staff were paid actual minimum wage to begin with?

Not really, why would I stop? Maybe I'd set the standard at 5 percent lower, I don't know.

Retail employees don't get tipped. I don't buy the work incentive either. Pay a living wage and use bonuses, shifts, demotion/promotions, threat of firing to motivate workers just like every other industry.

Retail employees aren't taking an order from you directly and following up on everything in a timely and accurate manner. Rather they're stocking stuff, cashing people out and answering any basic questions you have. It's completely different. In other words, a lazy retailer employee doesn't affect me, a lazy server can greatly affect me.
 
Retail employees don't get tipped. I don't buy the work incentive either. Pay a living wage and use bonuses, shifts, demotion/promotions, threat of firing to motivate workers just like every other industry.

And how awful are retail employees? How knowledgeable are they on what they sell? And how massive is the difference once commission comes into play?
 
There is a huge tax difference depending on where you are in the US. Some states have no income tax and just large sales tax. Some cities like NYC have huge both lol. That is what the cash register is for, using dem 1970s era ICs that can add and multiply.

Plus the weird variances in what is actually taxable, the different tax rates for different product types/services, states occasionally declaring tax holidays for certain product types, people with tax exemption because they're from Alaska or Oregon, etc. I did POS and merchandising tech support for a number of years and sales tax is always a giant clusterfuck. Mid-sized/smaller fashion chains would probably go insane if they had to tag everything for each individual tax authority and every time tax rates changed.
 
To those of you who tip based on performance: would you stop tipping if you knew the staff were paid actual minimum wage to begin with?

No, at least in my case, I wouldn't stop tipping. The tip amounts might be a bit smaller, though. I generally tip around 20%. I'll tip 25% or more for awesome service (give or take the bill). I'll tip 10-15% for meh to bad service (give or take circumstances). For the truly awful, I'll tip a quarter. I've found that tipping a quarter (or some flavor of 25 cents) has been more effective at getting my perception of service across better then tipping nothing, for whatever reason.

If servers were paid an actual wage (and frankly, I persoanlly feel minimum wage should be in the $10-11 rage, at least, but that is another argument), I'd probably drop my tip percentage by 10%. So generally tip 10% for decent service, ect...
 
Are white people who can jump being treated worse than black people?

waiters think black people don't tip -> give them poor service
black people get poor service -> don't tip

I probably chose the dumbest example but ok another go.

We didn't stop having a bank loaning system just because the jews were discriminated about it.
 
I always tip, but mostly because I have friends in the industry. What I dont like is that when you go to a resturant and pay 40-60 bucks to eat and then they expect you give an extra 10-20% on top. If a waiter is getting a customer to buy more food the server should get a kick back on the up sale.

I should have to pay more for enjoying my self and being a good customer to the resturant but get bad service because I dont want to give 20 bucks on a 100 dollar bill.
 
The biggest problem I have with tipping is that it unfairly transfers blame to the customer.

If a server can't make enough money at their job, it's not the customer that put them there. It's their employer for not paying a fair wage or offering reasonable hours, or paying for overtime. It's also their government's fault for not enforcing a higher minimum wage. Servers shouldn't be pissed off at customer's for not tipping well. They should be pissed off at their employers/government for putting them in this ridiculous payment structure in the first place.

Instead, we have servers/drivers spitting in people's food, and customers unfairly judging poor service when sometimes it's out of the server's control.
 
The biggest problem I have with tipping is that it unfairly transfers blame to the customer.

If a server can't make enough money at their job, it's not the customer that put them there. It's their employer for not paying a fair wage or offering reasonable hours, or paying for overtime. It's also their government's fault for not enforcing a higher minimum wage. Servers shouldn't be pissed off at customer's for not tipping well. They should be pissed off at their employers/government for putting them in this ridiculous payment structure in the first place.

Instead, we have servers/drivers spitting in people's food, and customers unfairly judging poor service when sometimes it's out of the server's control.
I don't get what you're saying. Servers are paid minimum wage by any reasonable sense of the word. Saying that servers make less than minimum wage is just about as true as when Obi-Wan told Luke that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father.
 
I don't get what you're saying. Servers are paid minimum wage by any reasonable sense of the word. Saying that servers make less than minimum wage is just about as true as when Obi-Wan told Luke that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father.

Well people have said in this thread and previous threads that the minimum wage is not sufficient because A) it's not a liveable wage or B) They don't get enough hours to make enough money based on that wage. If you think the minimum wage is sufficient, then why tip unless you actually receive exceptional service?
 
Well people have said in this thread and previous threads that the minimum wage is not sufficient because A) it's not a liveable wage or B) They don't get enough hours to make enough money based on that wage.

Yeah, and servers don't make minimum wage as it is. So what are you even talking about?

I'm sorry, but I simply don't buy the argument in general that waitstaff are downtrodden, abused employees in the first place. Waitstaff generally make pretty good money.
 
I don't get what you're saying. Servers are paid minimum wage by any reasonable sense of the word. Saying that servers make less than minimum wage is just about as true as when Obi-Wan told Luke that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father.

Yeah, and servers don't make minimum wage as it is. So what are you even talking about?

Now I am confused at what you're trying to say
 
Agreed, tipping is ridiculous and especially ridiculous in a society where not every one is in the same income bracket yet expected to tip the same. And yes the food may cost the same, but the cost of buying that food does not impact everyone the same. Very sad to think some people are getting shoddy service and things done to their food just based on their race and not the fact they paid the amount asked.
 
There was similar thread to this not too long ago. I said it there and i'll say it again: i'm form Europe, and here, tips are just extra money you earn on top of your normal wage for doing a good job. I was flabbergasted when i found out relatively recently that in the states tips are actually included as part of their wage. Thats fucking mental.
 
Angry Grimace, do you own a restaurant or something?

my opinion: price food higher and ban tipping, pay employees according to the law or get jailed
 
They make generally far in excess of minimum wage, actually.

Yeah I thought this was common knowledge. That is why you have the mouthbreathers working at walmart and the attractive and flirtatious people serving you at nicer restaurants. If you are outgoing and/or good looking, and looking for a low skill job, serving at a nice restaurant is about as good a job as you can get in terms of pay.
 
The biggest problem I have with tipping is that it unfairly transfers blame to the customer.

If a server can't make enough money at their job, it's not the customer that put them there. It's their employer for not paying a fair wage or offering reasonable hours, or paying for overtime. It's also their government's fault for not enforcing a higher minimum wage. Servers shouldn't be pissed off at customer's for not tipping well. They should be pissed off at their employers/government for putting them in this ridiculous payment structure in the first place.

Instead, we have servers/drivers spitting in people's food, and customers unfairly judging poor service when sometimes it's out of the server's control.

Or maybe the server should try a different field? To me it sounds like you're talking serving jobs, not careers. This applies to people that work at Waffle House, Applebees and the like. Some of these people work pretty hard, sure, but can you really blame the employer for not paying enough for a job that a high school drop out could easily take if that server quit? I'm just saying that a lot of the people that have these jobs are often not the most motivated/experienced people, so giving them hourly pay could be a horrible idea for employers. Whereas incentive on a table by table basis is an easy way to visualize cash flow and go for it in the moment.

And I would think servers don't spit in customer's food to get back at employers, they do it to piss off an asshole customer, which they will also do regardless of tip (because a tip takes place afterwards). In fact, people that don't get tips may be more inclined to do so since there is no change in outcome either way.

Business jobs out there, for example, get paid on commission; base play + commission can be the best in some situations because you're guaranteed money but you don't get as high a percentage of sales. I see serving as a low grade version of this; if you really try hard at a decent restaurant, people will tip you well. All the prejudice and douchebag-ness in general can be overcome if you're positive, pay attention to what people want, do things speedily, etc.

There are always outliers, but a reasonable customer can usually gauge how much effort a server is putting in. If they look like they're running around and they still don't have time to fill up a customer's water, then it's the employers fault for not putting enough servers on the clock. If I see a server sitting there talking to their server friends and I'm sitting there trying to track them down (especially to the point where I almost get up to go ask them for something), that person should not be paid (or at least be paid less), because they aren't doing their job.
 
I didn't read through the other pages but did we get to the part where someone says they are too poor to tip and then another person tells them to just not go out to eat yet?
 
They make generally far in excess of minimum wage, actually.

Well that's not my argument. The common argument for "mandatory" tipping is that otherwise the servers get screwed. I'm just saying that if that scenario were true, then it's not the customer's fault.
 
I didn't read through the other pages but did we get to the part where someone says they are too poor to tip and then another person tells them to just not go out to eat yet?
If you're asking whether there has been the standard trolling yet, the answer is yes.
 
I am not against tipping. I am just against tipping for stupid things. For example, I am NOT going to tip you for scooping my ice cream cone at Coldstone. I am NOT going to tip you if I walk up to the counter to make my order and have to walk back up to get it when it's ready.
 
Angry Grimace, do you own a restaurant or something?

my opinion: price food higher and ban tipping, pay employees according to the law or get jailed

Almost the exact opposite: I'm an employment attorney who represents only employees, mostly in wage and hour claims.

That said, quick google isn't the same thing as knowing what you're talking about. The minimum wage argument is practically non-sensical and nobody seems to have any facts which demonstrate some kind of net gain to employees, customers or restaurants by switching them over to fixed wages. All I'm seeing is "don't want to pay it," "makes me feel bad," or "company's responsibility," but nobody seems to want to explain why. Who is worse off in the current system and how does going to fixed wages change it?

I am not against tipping. I am just against tipping for stupid things. For example, I am NOT going to tip you for scooping my ice cream cone at Coldstone. I am NOT going to tip you if I walk up to the counter to make my order and have to walk back up to get it when it's ready.

I sincerely doubt that Coldstone workers make more than minimum wage anyways.

To those of you who tip based on performance: would you stop tipping if you knew the staff were paid actual minimum wage to begin with?

There is no tip credit in several states.
 
this thread will be fun

The thing that really bothers me is the blame going to the customer for not tipping instead of the employer for not paying a proper wage

employees should get full wage and tips should be gratuity - a bit extra if you think the service was outstanding. like was originally intended.

People forget that in California, that is the case. Tips are on top of eight an hour.

Meanwhile, claims that paying real wages would increase the cost of food are bs. Chains in California charge the same as elsewhere on their menu...and that's with higher wages and mandatory breaks
 
Tipping is a terrible custom. I like how people argue that you'd get worse servie without it, but honestly, service in the US is the worst of any developed nation I've ever been in (especially when compared to Asia where - in Japan and Korea anyway - tipping is "offensive").
 
I just look at it like this.

It shouldn't be up to the customer to make sure the employee is getting paid the correct wage, its should be up to the employer to make sure the employee is paid the correct wage. Tipping should be an option if the customer wants to tip (and deems the server deserves a bit extra for better than average service), it should not be pretty much a requirement that the customer must do it (in order to make sure the server gets paid correctly).
 
Tipping is a terrible custom. I like how people argue that you'd get worse servie without it, but honestly, service in the US is the worst of any developed nation I've ever been in (especially when compared to Asia where - in Japan and Korea anyway - tipping is "offensive").

I think your experience is different from most people's, particularly in Europe. Not all of service can be attributed to economic incentivization because cultural norms have a lot to do with it as well.
 
I always tip, but mostly because I have friends in the industry. What I dont like is that when you go to a resturant and pay 40-60 bucks to eat and then they expect you give an extra 10-20% on top. If a waiter is getting a customer to buy more food the server should get a kick back on the up sale.

I should have to pay more for enjoying my self and being a good customer to the resturant but get bad service because I dont want to give 20 bucks on a 100 dollar bill.

That's what the tip is for.
 
Tipping is a terrible custom. I like how people argue that you'd get worse servie without it, but honestly, service in the US is the worst of any developed nation I've ever been in (especially when compared to Asia where - in Japan and Korea anyway - tipping is "offensive").

Have you been anywhere in Europe or Mexico, and how long were you in the U.S. and at what kind of restaurants did you eat ? I studied abroad in Europe for 6 months, went to 10 to 15 countries during my trip, and I can honestly say the service was more lax in every one of them than in the U.S. And like I said, that's fine (especially when you don't have a tight schedule), but it doesn't equate to efficient service.
 
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