• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Slovakia ready to receive Syrian refugees – but only if they are non-muslim.

Status
Not open for further replies.

7aged

Member
Not saying Trash was entirely right in what he said, but he did say the UA Eand Saudi...and they really arent.
Its great Jordan, Turkey and Egypt are stepping up...but the fact is the richest countries in the region just aren't pulling their weight.

Saudi Arabia's response, while leaves much to be desired, isn't anything like presented here. Most of those UNHCR camps in Lebanon and Jordan are funded by Saudi Arabia. And despite not having a refugee program within its border, there are lots of Syrians who have migrated there in the hundreds of thousands. The size of Syrian expat community in Saudi has swelled dramatically with the war.


Sadly that is probably part of the reason why they are in fact, the richest in the region. They look out for THEIR interests first and foremost

Complete rubbish. GCC largess has bankrolled most of the neighbouring countries.
 

Condom

Member
As a Muslim living in europe, the views of a large part of the population is getting more and more depressing. Living here as a brown person means you are seen as an immigrant forever, even when you are born here.
 
The should absolutely not bar migrants just because they are Muslim.


However . . . I can see them not wanting to accept migrants that:
-Don't accept women as full equal members of society
-Don't believe that homosexuals should have full & equal rights
-Don't accept freedom of speech that allows citizens to criticize all politics, religions, ideas, etc.


And therein lies the rub.

But i thought they were accepting Christians?
 

Madness

Member
I am sorry but you are deluded. You're comparing a US & Canada, both which have a massive amount of available land (20 million km2) and a total population of 357 million. Compared that to the EU, 4.3 million km2 available land and a population of 508 million. Not to mention that vast wealth of US & Canada, compared to a country like Slovakia.

The simple fact is, there are too many refugees coming, the numbers are simply too big. Germany, this year expects 800k asylum application or 1% of their total population for this year alone. And this is only Germany we are talking about here. That's 15,000 new people per week, that need new housing, schools and healthcare. Not to mention the language/religious and cultural barriers.

There are some estimates that in Libya alone there are around 5 million people waiting to cross into the EU. And that's not even accounting for people that might cross though Turkey and other southern countries.

Personally the UK & the US should take the greater numbers, their the ones that were war mongering and started this whole mess in the first place. Now a poorer countries with their own problems, like Slovakia, Greece, and Hungary, countries that had nothing to do with middle east and it's bombing is now being slated for not taking in a greater number. True their excuse is deplorable but you must see their point of view.

I mean where is the UK in all of this???. They were the ones that were most supportive of the stupid war in the whole of EU and not they turn their backs and say its the EU problem. And just for the record, I live in the UK.

I personally think that this could potentially be the beginning of the end of the EU. This is a problem that cannot be fixed (people coming from two large continents) and with the no border rules and economic troubles already in the EU, this humanitarian problem will expose all of the weaknesses of the EU. It's only a matter of time before countries will start to want their border controls back and once that ball starts rolling it won't stop until EU if finished.

Thanks to all the governments around the world who started this mess. Awesome job guys, well done. Who should we go bomb next now? Maybe we should have a poll on this.

It's like you literally did not even read my post. Where did I say anything about primarily Slovakia? This is an EU wide issue. Also what the fuck does land have to do with it? Do you want the refugees to live in the 90% of Canadian land that is primarily forested or Arctic? Canada is the second largest country in the world and yet the majority of it's population is right near the US border in a handful of cities. Most of Canada is either frozen tundra or vast wilderness like Russia.

I agree that Slovakia shouldn't have to shoulder the burden at all. But when they come out and say, we'll take refugees but only if their Christian, it says something. Whether that's right or wrong depends on you. Don't tell me Syrian Christians will have it any easier integrating into Slovakia or that they'll be accepted by Slovakian Christians.

Like I said, if Europe doesn't want to take these people in, address the elephant in the room why, don't keep playing whataboutism. These numbers are unsustainable. That's pretty much a given, and it goes beyond just Syria. Europe is getting thousands of migrants from North Africa, other middle eastern countries. What does it say when the UK doesn't even want Polish white migrants coming in? That Switzerland wants to limit EU migration, even from places like Germany?
 

oti

Banned
In the meantime poor little Greece is pushed to its very limits because nations like Slovakia. No sympathy for their excuses. They believe something else so what. Let them in.
 
As a Muslim living in europe, the views of a large part of the population is getting more and more depressing. Living here as a brown person means you are seen as an immigrant forever, even when you are born here.

What do you mean? Asians and africans will never be seen as natives in europe, even if adopted. If you stick out, you stick out. Has nothing to do with religion

A greek in northern europe, will always be seen as "the greek" etc
 

F1Fan

Banned
I have an ethnic croatian father, thus have a croatian pass. I guess they could send me to croatia? lol. Not that I would mind....gorgeous country

Hasn't this happened in the past? Jews come to mind

I would think that would almost be almost impossible. You would have a number of human right laws on your side, especially if you have been a resident of a different countries for years.

If you're really that worried, you can always apply for a citizenship or a dual-citizenship in the country you already are. You only need to look up the qualifying rules, which mainly consist of how long you been a part of that country.

And yes that this did happen to the jews in the past, but those were different times that will I simply can't see repeating in the modern Europe.
 

Condom

Member
What do you mean? Asians and africans will never be seen as natives in europe, even if adopted. If you stick out, you stick out. Has nothing to do with religion

A greek in northern europe, will always be seen as "the greek" etc
I said brown person. You can read that as being anything but northern-european looking.

I know that it has nothing to do with religion, that was my point. Islam is in the spotlight right now but some people in Europe in general has a hard time accepting multi racial society. Still, a majority are accepting, it's not all doom and gloom.
 
What do you mean? Asians and africans will never be seen as natives in europe, even if adopted. If you stick out, you stick out. Has nothing to do with religion

A greek in northern europe, will always be seen as "the greek" etc

So this sort of thing is normal in europe?


So happy to be in Canada.
 

F1Fan

Banned
As a Muslim living in europe, the views of a large part of the population is getting more and more depressing. Living here as a brown person means you are seen as an immigrant forever, even when you are born here.

I am sorry you feel this way. I can assure you, that there are people that view you as an European and not as an immigrant. Me along with my Family and my friends would never view you as a foreigner simply because you're a Muslim and have different skin colour.

I am sorry that in your experience you are being treated like this. This is truly disgusting.
 

Alx

Member
What do you mean? Asians and africans will never be seen as natives in europe, even if adopted. If you stick out, you stick out. Has nothing to do with religion

A greek in northern europe, will always be seen as "the greek" etc

As a French man from Asian descent, I entirely disagree. Nobody around me considers me as a "foreigner", nor "the Asian guy".
 

PillarEN

Member
As a Muslim living in europe, the views of a large part of the population is getting more and more depressing. Living here as a brown person means you are seen as an immigrant forever, even when you are born here.

True. Though this is something that happens anywhere in the world where a certain group of people have not been living for multiple generations. In the Czech Republic for example I think it is slowly getting to the point where we see this upcoming generation of people who are descendants of Vietnamese immigrants as Czechs. At least among younger people. The fact that they don't have an accent when speaking Czech already is a big win for them. Nationalists and bigots always have a thing about people speaking and sounding right. That little box can't be check-marked anymore when these "others" speak and sound exactly like you. The Vietnamese immigrant population is also gaining some representation on tv shows/cinema which is a very big deal in terms of representation. Very small to be fair but such small differences "normalize" such groups to the population.

So this sort of thing is normal in europe?


So happy to be in Canada.

In very homogeneous countries it is normal. The US and Canada are countries born from immigration. Different stories.
 

oti

Banned
What do you mean? Asians and africans will never be seen as natives in europe, even if adopted. If you stick out, you stick out. Has nothing to do with religion

A greek in northern europe, will always be seen as "the greek" etc

You're describing my school years basically. People met me and some (idiots) just called me "the Greek". Nobody's doing that anymore though.
 

Condom

Member
I am sorry you feel this way. I can assure you, that there are people that view you as an European and not as an immigrant. Me along with my Family and my friends would never view you as a foreigner simply because you're a Muslim and have different skin colour.

I am sorry that in your experience you are being treated like this. This is truly disgusting.
I know and really need to stress that the majority is made up of the most accepting people you can find.

Thank you for showing that once again.

I was brought up to not think about this stuff and for the most part of my short life it was no problem at all. It's just stuff like my little sister's dream of serving in the military being crushed by classmates hating on her religion that makes me sad. She was ready to give her life for the country yet still got picked on by whom must be part of a special kind of assholes haha
 
Those people are living in Turkey. They are safe. One of the people ln that article was living in Dubai but the UAE wouldn't let him stay.

Depends where in Turkey. If they are still near the border, I can understand why they'd want to leave and get even further away.

As for Dubai. That's fucked up.
 

Metroxed

Member
So this sort of thing is normal in europe?


So happy to be in Canada.

It happens because, for example, being a Danish citizen and being a Dane are two different things. I'm Basque, and I could move to the Netherlands and eventually get the citizenship. That won't make me Dutch though, I will still be Basque. In Europe (and in Asia too) the identity of each country is strongly linked to one or several predetermined ethnic groups. The Americas, and particularly the US and Canada, are made up by people from everywhere, so it is essentially different.
 

Nivash

Member
All of this is just horrible. Depressing, infuriating, disgusting, despairing - I'm not sure where to even begin describing the travesty that is Europe when it comes to the refugee question. There are still some holdouts that have generous policies but the way this is going it won't last. I wouldn't be surprised to see open pogroms in some countries within 10 years at this rate. I'm more or less convinced by now that this fight is already lost, the extreme racist right has won.

I'm not sure on the details for the rest of Europe but the situation here in Sweden has basically moved from "bad, but manageable" to "complete clusterfuck, bordering on disaster" in less than a year since the last election. A recent poll put the Sweden Democrats - a party that used to march in SS uniforms and held book burnings during the 90s - as our largest party. It's insane. I'm not even sure how to process it other than accepting that a huge part of our population is actually deeply and irredeemably racist. I used to joke that the only moral response to an SD government would be revolt but I never thought it would actually come to that.

And that's not all. We had a tragic double murder recently, where a mentally ill refugee stabbed a woman and her son in an IKEA and then stabbed himself. People lost their minds. We had to evacuate the refugee shelter he was living in (after he was arrested, obviously) because someone had placed flammable liquids around it. The police didn't even want to risk telling people where the evacuated refugees had been sent. Earlier this summer a man attacked a beggars camp with a machete before burning it down. Thankfully no-one has died yet but at this rate it's only a matter of time.

Everything's just spiraling out of control. The people fleeing Syria is fleeing a literal hell on Earth. The country has been razed to the ground and incredibly violent factions are still fighting over the rubble. It's an apocalypse over there - these people desperately need sanctuary and have a right to it. Some of the stories I've heard from refugees are enough to give you nightmares. And yet we treat them with nothing but escalating hostility and contempt. "Shameful" doesn't even cover it.
 
Saudi Arabia's response, while leaves much to be desired, isn't anything like presented here. Most of those UNHCR camps in Lebanon and Jordan are funded by Saudi Arabia. And despite not having a refugee program within its border, there are lots of Syrians who have migrated there in the hundreds of thousands. The size of Syrian expat community in Saudi has swelled dramatically with the war.




Complete rubbish. GCC largess has bankrolled most of the neighbouring countries.

Saudi Arabia has not offered to take in any refugees though. According to Amnesty:

The six Gulf countries - Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Bahrain - have offered zero resettlement places to Syrian refugees.

That is truly the story here, especially as the GCC countries bankroll the bloodshed in Syria.
 

Caayn

Member
So this sort of thing is normal in europe?


So happy to be in Canada.
Depends on the person mostly. For example in my area there are plenty of people from Turkish descent who constantly wave the Turkish flag and praise Turkey while everything my country or its people does is seen as stupid. At those moment I think "just move back to Turkey", those are the people that I'll never view as Dutch citizens or even Europeans for that matter. But there are also plenty of people in my area who aren't from Dutch descent and don't throw around their country of origin at every chance they get, they integrate into society and respect our way of live. They don't force their way onto us. Those are the people I'll view as Dutch/European citizens. The majority of the "native" Dutch people around me share my thoughts.

So I'd say that it depends on the person you're for the most part. Of course there will always be a sour grape in between.
 

Condom

Member
To be fair, Syria and the likes have far less conservative people than the GCC. Saudi Arabia can't have even more people wanting women to drive of course.
Not until the conservatives die off and young people take over.
 

Alx

Member
It happens because, for example, being a Danish citizen and being a Dane are two different things. I'm Basque, and I could move to the Netherlands and eventually get the citizenship. That won't make me Dutch though, I will still be Basque. In Europe (and in Asia too) the identity of each country is strongly linked to one or several predetermined ethnic groups. The Americas, and particularly the US and Canada, are made up by people from everywhere, so it is essentially different.

You may not be a good example because Basque people are very attached to their culture and origins. I'm origianlly from Picardie (north of France) but after spending two decades near Paris I consider myself more of a Parisian now. My mother came from Germany but now is entirely French. Her sister moved to the UK and feels perfectly British (and is even active in local politics).
Some people have no issue adapting to a new area/country/culture.
 

oti

Banned
So OK, let break it down and please add if you want. All of this is from a German/Greek perspective.

Greece: Refugees aren't something new, the volume is. Especially Kos can't handle it anymore. Greece doesn't seem to be the refugee's destination though. Most just want to go through to get to richer nations. Still, Greece needs help from the EU immediately.

Germany: Capable of letting more in, 800.000 seems to be the number for this year. Seeing how there's already a huge Turkish community here different religions shouldn't be an issue. But nationalism is on the rise with Germans shouting "but what about the poor Germans" and asking for refugees to get sent back. Some individuals see this as an opportunity to get the good old Nazi vocabulary out of the drawer. They were always fascists but now it seems to be "acceptable" to say these things under the "I'm just worried that's all" umbrella. Despicable and I'm ashamed to live in the same country as them. Here in Hamburg though I don't really feel that much has changed so far. It's a very diverse area as it is.

Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark: What's going on there friends? You're like the best kids in school in everything else. Why all the nationalistic nonsense?

Slovakia: Shame on you.

Austria: What the hell.
 
As a French man from Asian descent, I entirely disagree. Nobody around me considers me as a "foreigner", nor "the Asian guy".

Might be different in France then, their main concern seems to be that people speak french. In scandinavia its different

An asian born here will get asked where they're from, sooner or later, from strangers.
 

CassSept

Member
So this sort of thing is normal in europe?


So happy to be in Canada.

There are many who use this as a sort of self-identification thing though (e.g. Greeks). Kinda like Irishmen and Italians used to in America, though it's not really comparable since the US are a country of immigrants while most European countries, as said, are usually rather homogeneous.

You may not be a good example because Basque people are very attached to their culture and origins. I'm origianlly from Picardie (north of France) but after spending two decades near Paris I consider myself more of a Parisian now. My mother came from Germany but now is entirely French. Her sister moved to the UK and feels perfectly British (and is even active in local politics).
Some people have no issue adapting to a new area/country/culture.

This goes for many European cultures though, Basques are not outliers here, it depends more on a given person.
 

Metroxed

Member
You may not be a good example because Basque people are very attached to their culture and origins. I'm origianlly from Picardie (north of France) but after spending two decades near Paris I consider myself more of a Parisian now. My mother came from Germany but now is entirely French. Her sister moved to the UK and feels perfectly British (and is even active in local politics).
Some people have no issue adapting to a new area/country/culture.

I get your point, but I didn't mean so much someone identifying with a new country or region (something that's highly variable), but the people of said region recognising the person as one of them. Following the previous example, I could be very well at home in the Netherlands, but Dutch people won't see me as Dutch, because I'm obviously not, regardless of how "at home" I feel. I will still be Basque for them. That's the point.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Well fed and educated and trying to escape a group that would happily flog and behead them for wearing the wrong clothes or saying the wrong thing or being gay or not conforming to their views of normal.

Why leave out the most crucial aspect of why they are fleeing?

The point was that they're fleeing Turkey, UAE, Lebanon. Most left Syria quite some time ago and were staying at friends or in a hotel for over half a year, couldn't find a decent job and then said screw it I'm going to try my luck in Europe. I mean they might still be traumatized and have sad stories, I sure as hell don't want to be in their shoes and a number should be granted asylum, but they didn't flee the mortar shells under the cover of night; instead they hopped on the plane to Bodrum and then took the 30 min. well organized five times a day boat trip to Kos. Others 'fled' from countries like Pakistan because they didn't have stable electricity. They stay in hotels a few days, buy their new smartphones and then go to the train station. It's become a very efficient industry.
 

18-Volt

Member
Not saying Trash was entirely right in what he said, but he did say the UA Eand Saudi...and they really arent.
Its great Jordan, Turkey and Egypt are stepping up...but the fact is the richest countries in the region just aren't pulling their weight.

Turkey is sure to deport all of those refugees the moment Erdogan steps down from power and opposition is working hard for that. Re-elections is in November and deportation will be the very first thing the new government would do if they are elected.
 

spekkeh

Banned
I get your point, but I didn't mean so much someone identifying with a new country or region (something that's highly variable), but the people of said region recognising the person as one of them. Following the previous example, I could be very well at home in the Netherlands, but Dutch people won't see me as Dutch, because I'm obviously not, regardless of how "at home" I feel. I will still be Basque for them. That's the point.

Nah. I mean European countries (and African and Asian) are kind of different because they're nation states, they're not 'made up' states like the US.

Ethnic_diversity.jpg

But if you move here and you eat stroopwafels and complain about the weather all day long, in time I will just see you as Dutch.
 

7aged

Member
Saudi Arabia has not offered to take in any refugees though. According to Amnesty:

I won't excuse them not setting up refugee camps within their borders, but they are paying for the ones in Syria's neighbours.

Essentially what they're doing is selective migration. The Syrians who go to Saudi or UAE are expats not refugees. They make it there because of a support network from a large pre-existing Syrian community who help them find jobs and get residency permits.
 

Nivash

Member
Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark: What's going on there friends? You're like the best kid in school on everything else. Why all the nationalistic nonsense?

Swedish perspective: I don't think the Swedish people have changed but, similar yet different to Greeks, it's a question of volume here too. My personal theory is basically this: Swedish culture prides itself on helping people in need and this is what has kept our policies generous to this day. Yet a large part of the population, maybe even a majority, were only fine with this as long as they didn't have to see the people they were helping. Because deep within, these people are xenophobic. So now that volumes are up and they're seeing people on the streets who are clearly not ethnically Swedish and are hearing foreign languages on the bus these people are driven mad. They want everyone to be white, Swedish and keeping to themselves and can only really tolerate token minorities. We've finally gotten to the point where these people are dropping their facades.

It was eye opening for me to see how the populace in large descended into hysterics over the Romanian beggars. These are people that don't cost us a cent more than we give them and - apart from the odd landowner who finds himself forced to house their camps - don't bother us with more than a polite greeting and an implied plea for us to give them some change. Yet people can't stand it. They hate them for existing. In a twisted way the beggar question drove support for anti-immigration policies despite it not being connected - the only way to block Romanian immigration would be to leave the EU, something that few Swedes support.

So the way I see it, two conclusions can be drawn: firstly, that Sweden has a dark racist backside that we haven't had to truly face until now. Secondly, that the Swedish generosity and social programs are at least in part a way for us to buy our way out of directly having to deal with people in need and that now that we have to, we're not so angelic after all.
 

Irminsul

Member
I get your point, but I didn't mean so much someone identifying with a new country or region (something that's highly variable), but the people of said region recognising the person as one of them. Following the previous example, I could be very well at home in the Netherlands, but Dutch people won't see me as Dutch, because I'm obviously not, regardless of how "at home" I feel. I will still be Basque for them. That's the point.
I agree with you, but want to add that usually, that's also just a neutral statement of a fact and nothing that "matters" in one way or another.

Hell, I'm a German living in Austria, two of the probably closest countries in Europe, culture-wise. I'm still obviously a German, at the latest when I say something due to my "missing" local dialect. But that's just something you notice, and the vast majority of people don't judge me on that (and yes, that is very much possible between Germans and Austrians).

If that's different when you're another ethnicity, that's obviously bad. But that you somehow shouldn't mention obvious things lest someone wouldn't "feel" like a local guy anymore strikes me as tremendously silly.
 

~Devil Trigger~

In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
To be fair, Syria and the likes have far less conservative people than the GCC. Saudi Arabia can't have even more people wanting women to drive of course.
Not until the conservatives die off and young people take over.

thats the point(im trying to make)

One of the biggest reasons why Europe has to carry the burden is The Gulf States, specially Saudi Arabia have been completely irresponsible and shameful.

While its fair to point and shame Slovakia on their discrimination, its absolutely fine to bring up the hypocritical, shameful and discriminatory stance of these kingdoms, they care more about themselves, their money and their regressive religious views then these lives.
 

F1Fan

Banned
It's like you literally did not even read my post. Where did I say anything about primarily Slovakia? This is an EU wide issue. Also what the fuck does land have to do with it? Do you want the refugees to live in the 90% of Canadian land that is primarily forested or Arctic? Canada is the second largest country in the world and yet the majority of it's population is right near the US border in a handful of cities. Most of Canada is either frozen tundra or vast wilderness like Russia.

Yeah it might be cold and wilderness but there is still a mass land available along with huge natural resources, where people can potentially live. You are making it sound like it's an alien land that has no oxygen...Even if you discount Canada entirely, you still have USA which is more than double the land mass of EU and has nearly half as less population as the whole of EU.

I agree that Slovakia shouldn't have to shoulder the burden at all. But when they come out and say, we'll take refugees but only if their Christian, it says something. Whether that's right or wrong depends on you. Don't tell me Syrian Christians will have it any easier integrating into Slovakia or that they'll be accepted by Slovakian Christians.

Like I said, if Europe doesn't want to take these people in, address the elephant in the room why, don't keep playing whataboutism. These numbers are unsustainable. That's pretty much a given, and it goes beyond just Syria. Europe is getting thousands of migrants from North Africa, other middle eastern countries. What does it say when the UK doesn't even want Polish white migrants coming in? That Switzerland wants to limit EU migration, even from places like Germany?

There is no elephant in the room....The fact is that people from the EU and from African & Middle east simply are used to different rules/cultures and religion. Both sides in this argument will try and preserve their culture and this can be seen all over Europe and all across the world. This is basic human fear and protectionism that can be seen here.

You can see it all over in the UK. Here you have whole communities that are built by Indians/Pakistanis where 90% of the population from these communities are from these areas and you hardly see any British person. Same applies for the British, they usually don't move into this areas, because their lifestyle are not compatible with theirs.

This doesn't mean that anyone is being racist, it is simply the case of an Indian finding it easier to live in his community. He can use his own language, can have access to specialised Indian shops, where he can get food that he can't from a normal British shop etc. He feels more at home in his own community, something he is already used too. Exact same thing applies to an average British person. Sure this can be viewed as integration problem but at the end of the day, people move to an area freely where they find life to be the most of their liking. Nobody is forcing them to live there. Again I speak from experience, I live in a total British area and have never had any problems from anyone.

Slovakia is having the same fear and by them using the christian excuse has two effects. They believe that the two cultures might be easier to integrate but more importantly they simply dodge a large number of immigrants this way.

As for Switzerland, I am not too familiar with their policies, but it is clear that they are more protective about their whole country on numerous other policies. I mean they are not even in the EU and will never be since they clearly want to do things their own way. Switzerland has always been almost like a separate entity from the rest of Europe though recent history. Considering their economic standard, clearly this seems to be working for them and they clearly are very protective on any significant changes to their society.

Just because a society is protective of their culture and their standard, does not immediately mean they are racist.

You argument about UK and Polish is also simply not true. Again some people might not like them being here and are making a big fuss, especially some conservative right wing newspapers, but the majority of the population don't really give a damn. I can speak from my experience, I am a foreigner from eastern EU and have been living in the UK for 10 years now and I have never had any problems due to being a foreigner.

The same issues you see on the news about EU and their immigration problem is similar to the issue I see on the news about America and their Mexican immigration problem. You have a minority causing a mass hysteria about Mexicans and how a wall needs to be build to protect the USA. I can't speak from experience but I would guess that large percentage of Americans, don't have anything against Mexicans and it is pretty much the same here in the EU.

If anything you're argument about elephant in the room makes no sense. Which other continent on this planet, allows people from different EU countries (which speak different languages/culture/history/everything else) can freely move about with no border checks, go and settle in another EU country (as I have done) with minimal fuss and minimal paperwork. This same policies apply across the 28 member states.

I can move from the UK (where I been living for 10 years), back to my country or move to any other 28 member states and eventually be allowed to apply for that countries citizenship. I mean we can move freely to totally different countries and then apply for citizenship. Which other continent allows population this much freedom to move and live between different countries....If this racism problem really existed in such a large scale as portrayed in the foreign and some domestic media, then this free movement of people policy would never have ever even been brought up, let alone implemented.
 
I would think that would almost be almost impossible. You would have a number of human right laws on your side, especially if you have been a resident of a different countries for years.

If you're really that worried, you can always apply for a citizenship or a dual-citizenship in the country you already are. You only need to look up the qualifying rules, which mainly consist of how long you been a part of that country.

And yes that this did happen to the jews in the past, but those were different times that will I simply can't see repeating in the modern Europe.

not really concerned, just wanted your (gafs) opinion of the future in Europe. No one can deny that we're going through a dark path and it will only get worse as the time goes by.

If this all is really about religion (and not how people look, which I know is bs), then why don't we just ban Islam? Isnt that what people want? Might be a stupid question :s
 

SmokyDave

Member
Swedish perspective: *snip*

I notice you didn't once mention crime. I've read in some of the more credible outlets such as The BBC and The Guardian that immigrants commit a tremendously disproportionate amount of crime in Sweden, particularly sexual assaults. Is there any truth to that?

not really concerned, just wanted your (gafs) opinion of the future in Europe. No one can deny that we're going through a dark path and it will only get worse as the time goes by.

If this all is really about religion (and not how people look, which I know is bs), then why don't we just ban Islam? Isnt that what people want? Might be a stupid question :s
I'd say it's as much about culture as it is religion.
 

Metroxed

Member
I agree with you, but want to add that usually, that's also just a neutral statement of a fact and nothing that "matters" in one way or another.

Hell, I'm a German living in Austria, two of the probably closest countries in Europe, culture-wise. I'm still obviously a German, at the latest when I say something due to my "missing" local dialect. But that's just something you notice, and the vast majority of people don't judge me on that (and yes, that is very much possible between Germans and Austrians).

If that's different when you're another ethnicity, that's obviously bad. But that you somehow shouldn't mention obvious things lest someone wouldn't "feel" like a local guy anymore strikes me as tremendously silly.

I agree with you. That was my point all along.
 

CoolOff

Member
I notice you didn't once mention crime. I've read in some of the more credible outlets such as The BBC and The Guardian that immigrants commit a tremendously disproportionate amount of crime in Sweden, particularly sexual assaults. Is there any truth to that?


I'd say it's as much about culture as it is religion.

We don't report ethnicity when crimes are committed in Sweden, so there's no way of knowing.
 
Things wouldn't be so dire if the larger political parties weren't scared shitless of actually discussing long-term solutions to large-scale immigration, currently most of them have opted to just put their heads in the sand.
 
I'd say it's as much about culture as it is religion.

How do people know of ones culture just by looking at them? What about those that are integrated? Can you spot an integrated immigrant just by looking at them for 5 sec?

Your first reaction would be to put them in the same pile, no?
 

SmokyDave

Member
We don't report ethnicity when crimes are committed in Sweden, so there's no way of knowing.
Has that changed? It seems like it was possible to derive the information ten years ago. Wiki also had this to say, again based on old data:

Immigrants are overrepresented in Sweden's crime statistics. In a study by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention in 1997-2001, 25% of the almost 1,520,000 offences were found to be committed by people born abroad, while almost 20% were committed by Swedish-born people with a foreign background. In the study, immigrants were found to be four times more likely to be investigated for lethal violence and robbery than ethnic Swedes. In addition, immigrants were three times more likely to be investigated for violent assault, and five times more likely to be investigated for sex crimes. Overall, North Africa and Western Asia were strongly overrepresented in the crime statistics. The report is based on statistics for those "suspected" of offences, but Stina Holmberg of the Council for Crime Prevention said that there was "little difference" in the statistics for those suspected of crimes and those actually convicted. "Slightly under 60 percent of the almost 1,520,000 offences ... registered during the period covered by the study can be attributed to persons who were born in Sweden to two Swedish-born parents," it said

I wondered why all the data seemed to be old (and I can't find the BBC article I was thinking of).

How do people know of ones culture just by looking at them? What about those that are integrated? Can you spot an integrated immigrant just by looking at them for 5 sec?

Your first reaction would be to put them in the same pile, no?
The two very often go hand in hand.

I think we're just at a point now where we don't want or need the stress associated with trying to assimilate these populations. Part of that probably is separating the conservative fanatics from the normal people that happen to share the same label. Particularly when you have to worry about the former preying on the latter as they struggle to adapt to their new homes.

Europe didn't move sharply to the right over the last 10-15 years because the people were bored and fancied giving fascism a go. Mass uncontrolled immigration wasn't working and mainstream parties failed to recognise that for far too long.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Things wouldn't be so dire if the larger political parties weren't scared shitless of actually discussing long-term solutions to large-scale immigration, currently most of them have opted to just put their heads in the sand.

There aren't really solutions to your country growing 10% every year due to illegal immigrants.
 

Nivash

Member
I notice you didn't once mention crime. I've read in some of the more credible outlets such as The BBC and The Guardian that immigrants commit a tremendously disproportionate amount of crime in Sweden, particularly sexual assaults. Is there any truth to that?

Limited, mostly related to socioeconomic factors. Almost all of the disparity disappears when you account for those. And it's not just relative poverty, a lot of it comes from the fact that refugees are disproportionately young and male. There is some overrepresentation that can't be directly explained by pure socioeconomy but other factors such as language and, yes, culture clash leading to lower societal connectedness are probably the reasons there.

This obviously doesn't explain away anything. They're by and large hampered by these factors because they're immigrants. Our integration efforts have been rather lackluster which has led to large immigrant groups ending up in suburban projects which quickly turned into hotbeds for organized crime - hardly surprising, like I said a disproportionate number of them are young men with no place in society and small economic prospects. This is a problem we should have dealt with a decade ago, now there's no obvious solution.

Even so, these are not massive concerns. The vast, vast majority of immigrants are perfectly law abiding. Deadly violence is trending down, similar to the US. Rape is technically trending up but this is difficult to evaluate - the definition was broadened considerably in the last decade and large efforts have been made to increase the rate at which victims report. Reported rapes increased from 3800 in 2005 to 6700 in 2015. The definition was broadened twice in that time; in 2005 and in 2013. The population has also grown by 8 % in that time. I'm not sure if there's a consensus on whether rapes are truly up or not.

Oh, and an interesting sidenote: the Sweden Democrat's very own parliamentarians are more overrepresented than immigrants when it comes to crime.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/article20042384.ab

EDIT: Right, I should probably source that a bit better.

Socioeconomic factors as an explanation is from a study in 2011: http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=3993&artikel=4417066

Deadly violence is trending down: http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/trots-allt-det-dodliga-valdet-minskar/

On sex crimes and rape: https://www.bra.se/bra/brott-och-statistik/valdtakt-och-sexualbrott.html

All in Swedish, unfortunately, but not unexpectedly. Hopefully Google translate can make sense of them.
 
Europe didn't move sharply to the right over the last 10-15 years because the people were bored and fancied giving fascism a go. Mass uncontrolled immigration wasn't working and mainstream parties failed to recognise that for far too long.

I'd buy that if this "concerned" right wing didn't take part in nazi rallies and such. Going from immigration problems to rectangular mustaches only makes sense if the person is already batshit crazy.

edit: should mention that it turns out immigration obsessed nazi wannabes are really shit at governing because they literally know nothing about anything except shouting from the peanut gallery, so the problem eventually self corrects. But there will be damage.
 

Azih

Member
False equivalence. One does not choose their skin colour, but one certainly chooses one's religion.
Not that this would justify discrimination, mind. But I find it tiring to see comparisons between criticism of religions and ideologies and racism. It's fallacious.

Not in the least. Blacks don't have deadly theological fights over who is practicing the most authentic form of blackness. Black is just a skin color. Islam is a set of beliefs and beliefs guide your behavior. Those beliefs are what's causing you to argue with me right now.

My God. Holy shit. These are horrendous posts. Absolutely ugly and deeply horrible. The amount of shit that is wrong here is astounding. It's hard to even start responding to it.

I'll try though because it's important to my peace of mind.

A discriminated against visible minority is a discriminated against visible minority. Saying something like "Being wary of black people is bad, but being wary of Muslims? Yeah they should expect that" is insane.

It seems to me that you guys want to amend no discrimination based on race, color, religion, creed, ethnicity, ancestry, national origin, sexual orientation, marital status, military or veteran status, age and disability etc. (taking a pretty representative example from the web of things that are illegal to discriminate based on) to remove religion, creed, marital status, and military/veteran status. After all you CHOOSE your religion, creed, whether you married or not, and whether you joined the military or not right? So it's just fine to be 'wary' of those things?

Would the McCarthy witch hunts have been 'understandable' to you guys? I mean people aren't BORN communists right?

Morrigan: Speculawyer said Muslims should understand why people are wary of MUSLIMS he didn't even make the standard of deflection of 'nothing against MUSLIMS. Hate ISLAM THO'
 

spekkeh

Banned
My God. Holy shit. These are horrendous posts. Absolutely ugly and deeply horrible. The amount of shit that is wrong here is astounding. It's hard to even start responding to it.

I'll try though because it's important to my peace of mind.

A discriminated against visible minority is a discriminated against visible minority. Saying something like "Being wary of black people is bad, but being wary of Muslims? Yeah they should expect that" is insane.

It seems to me that you guys want to amend no discrimination based on race, color, religion, creed, ethnicity, ancestry, national origin, sexual orientation, marital status, military or veteran status, age and disability etc. (taking a pretty representative example from the web of things that are illegal to discriminate based on) to remove religion, creed, marital status, and military/veteran status. After all you CHOOSE your religion, creed, whether you married or not, and whether you joined the military or not right? So it's just fine to be 'wary' of those things?

Would the McCarthy witch hunts have been 'understandable' to you guys? I mean people aren't BORN communists right?

huh? It's legally okay to discriminate based on age, marital status, military status and more. That happens all the time. Reduced bus tickets for the elderly and military personnel are quite common place, special tax rules for married couples etc.
 
huh? It's legally okay to discriminate based on age, marital status, military status and more. That happens all the time. Reduced bus tickets for the elderly and military personnel are quite common place, special tax rules for married couples etc.

Affirmative action, ethnic quotas.

Your point?
 

Nivash

Member
We don't report ethnicity when crimes are committed in Sweden, so there's no way of knowing.

That is correct, but we do report and track whether someone is born abroad, second generation immigrant and so on. That's the basis for pretty much all research on immigrant crime.

Wouldn't it be easier to just split Syria? Create a Syria 1 and a Syria 2 force them militarily to disarm and then each group can do what they do. Kind of like Korea without the haircuts?

And how do propose we do that? Should the US invade and set up local governments? It didn't exactly work out in Iraq - just the disarmament part is completely impossible at this point.
 
Wouldn't it be easier to just split Syria? Create a Syria 1 and a Syria 2 force them militarily to disarm and then each group can do what they do. Kind of like Korea without the haircuts?
 

SmokyDave

Member
Limited, mostly related to socioeconomic factors. Almost all of the disparity disappears when you account for those. And it's not just relative poverty, a lot of it comes from the fact that refugees are disproportionately young and male. There is some overrepresentation that can't be directly explained by pure socioeconomy but other factors such as language and, yes, culture clash leading to lower societal connectedness are probably the reasons there.

This obviously doesn't explain away anything. They're by and large hampered by these factors because they're immigrants. Our integration efforts have been rather lackluster which has led to large immigrant groups ending up in suburban projects which quickly turned into hotbeds for organized crime - hardly surprising, like I said a disproportionate number of them are young men with no place in society and small economic prospects. This is a problem we should have dealt with a decade ago, now there's no obvious solution.

Even so, these are not massive concerns. The vast, vast majority of immigrants are perfectly law abiding. Deadly violence is trending down, similar to the US. Rape is technically trending up but this is difficult to evaluate - the definition was broadened considerably in the last decade and large efforts have been made to increase the rate at which victims report. Reported rapes increased from 3800 in 2005 to 6700 in 2015. The definition was broadened twice in that time; in 2005 and in 2013. The population has also grown by 8 % in that time. I'm not sure if there's a consensus on whether rapes are truly up or not.

Oh, and an interesting sidenote: the Sweden Democrat's very own parliamentarians are more overrepresented than immigrants when it comes to crime.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/article20042384.ab

EDIT: Right, I should probably source that a bit better.

Socioeconomic factors as an explanation is from a study in 2011: http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=3993&artikel=4417066

Deadly violence is trending down: http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/trots-allt-det-dodliga-valdet-minskar/

On sex crimes and rape: https://www.bra.se/bra/brott-och-statistik/valdtakt-och-sexualbrott.html

All in Swedish, unfortunately, but not unexpectedly. Hopefully Google translate can make sense of them.
Thank you for that. It seems like there's enough there to have had an effect on how people feel (and the shift towards SD), but as always the full picture is far more complicated than the first glance.

I'm not at all surprised to see politicians over-represented in crime stats. Some things will never change no matter where, when, or who you are.

Edit: As an aside, google translate has improved a lot. Time to revisit the SwedenGAF thread!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom