So, just how strong is Piccolo?

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Being a jerk must be hereditary then because Goku didn't get the job done several times too. He could have arrested Dr Gero early on thanks to Future Trunks' warnings but choose to let him build his Androids for three years just because he wanted a challenge. He also could have easily destroyed fat Buu and ended the saga early on but choose not to -- therefore putting the Earth and everyone at risk -- because he wanted the young ones to do the job.

Well, two things there.

The bloodlust for battle IS hereditary in the Saiyan genes. That's a big part of their character, their obsession with fighting. They're savages. Goku just happened to get lucky and lose some his savagery, but none of his lust for battle.

So he's a nice guy, but he still can't give up the chance at a good fight.

Also note that, ON THE WHOLE, when he gives villains a chance and beats them into submission, they tend to eventually become allies. Often because they can't beat him or have a common foe, but still, allies. This applies to Yamcha, Tienshinhan, Piccolo, Yajirobe, Vegeta. Arguably Krillin was a rival too, but that was when they were little kids.

Freeza is the first opponent that was completely beyond repetance--note that Goku DOES the usual "I've beaten you" thing and lets him leave...but Freeza decides to go for the cheap shot and Goku's forced to nuke him.

That being said, leaving Buu to the younger generation is different; he specifically says it's not for his own lust of battle--it's so the Earth has a protector when he is gone for good. Gohan was doing an ok job, but after Fat Buu awoke, Goku thought Gohan was dead.

If he had his own interests in mind, he would've gone all out SSJ3 and wiped Fat Buu out. But he wanted the kids to learn how to fight and protect Earth, so he gave them their chance. It worked with Gohan before--Cell would have eventually beaten Goku and then the Earth if Goku hadn't stepped aside to let Gohan take over.

Goku's not the smartest person by a long shot, but he has pretty consistent and clear reasons for what he does.
 
I love that scene so much. When Vegeta's music kicks in, then the music that plays when Gohan destroys Cell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec6fR11dHUk

You know what's bullshit about this scene, and fight in general.

All these fuckers are content to stand on the side and let Goku and Cell fight solo, then Gohan and Cell fight solo.

It isn't until "oh shit, Gohan's arm is out of commission and he might actually lose, and we're all gonna fucking die!" that they decide to oh I dunno, GANG UP ON THE THREAT TO THE PLANET FOR THE GREATER GOOD.

All that honor and 1 v 1 crap goes straight out of the window when the situation becomes dire enough that everyone might die horribly. :P

You see this repeatedly by the Saiyans and it gets even more ridiculous in the Buu saga until again "Oh shit, we're about to die, time to team up and stop the threat after indulging ourselves!"

I love DBZ btw. :)
 
When Piccolo merged with Kami he should really have gotten a much more major power boost then he did. But we were already deep into DB descending into saiyajin-only mediocrity by then.
 
You know what's bullshit about this scene, and fight in general.

All these fuckers are content to stand on the side and let Goku and Cell fight solo, then Gohan and Cell fight solo.

It isn't until "oh shit, Gohan's arm is out of commission and he might actually lose, and we're all gonna fucking die!" that they decide to oh I dunno, GANG UP ON THE THREAT TO THE PLANET FOR THE GREATER GOOD.

All that honor and 1 v 1 crap goes straight out of the window when the situation becomes dire enough that everyone might die horribly. :P

You see this repeatedly by the Saiyans and it gets even more ridiculous in the Buu saga until again "Oh shit, we're about to die, time to team up and stop the threat after indulging ourselves!"

I love DBZ btw. :)

Actually, that scene is filler, meaning the anime directors came up with it to extend out the episode.

Toriyama wrote it purely as a one on one (almost).

Gohan was holding himself back with that final burst of energy, partially because he wasn't sure he could do it, partially because he was scared of what would happen if he DID do it and the resulting explosion would destroy the planet even if it got Cell.

Vegeta's distraction gave Gohan the excuse to finally cut through Cell's defenses.

That being said, yeah, the series makes a big deal about how some characters respect the Bushido code and some do not. Basically, most of the people boast about how they respect the Warrior's Honor code, but they give it up when they're losing. It says a lot about which characters do:

Goku always does. ALWAYS. That's part of his weakness.

Vegeta almost always does, but not for the same reasons, he does it because of his ego. Which is his weakness. Also, he gives it up when things get desperate.

Piccolo does not care about those things, so he's a way more pragmatic fighter.

Trunks doesn't care either, but that's because he fights for survival.

For the villains, curiously enough, Android 17 is one of the only one who does, despite his sadism and immaturity. Cell does, but only because he's toying with people. Everyone else is pure sadism, though Ginyu shows a few signs of honor.

When Piccolo merged with Kami he should really have gotten a much more major power boost then he did. But we were already deep into DB descending into saiyajin-only mediocrity by then.

Well, for a brief period, Piccolo was stronger than EVERYONE since he was able to match Imperfect Cell and Android 17 one on one. Earlier on, they both showed they were far stronger than ALL of the Z-warriors including the Super Saiyans.
 
I'm pretty sure the last major thing Piccolo did in the series was chopping Babidi in half.

Then Majin Buu healed him, so bleh.

194.jpg
 
Well, for a brief period, Piccolo was stronger than EVERYONE since he was able to match Imperfect Cell and Android 17 one on one. Earlier on, they both showed they were far stronger than ALL of the Z-warriors including the Super Saiyans.

He was strongest for barely any time at all, and then when it came time for space & time room training, he barely made any improvement - despite assumedly half of his body having done no physical training for 400+ years.
 
You missed out on the glory days of DBZ Tribute on Warcraft III. Easily better designed than Dota was, and until bots started hosting servers it was almost just as commonly played.

Man, this was my jam. I spent a good year or more in the DBZT forums and even held the record of "strongest bebi in the least amount of time" for a good while. Hate that we never got the elusive version 10 of the map due to the creator losing interest, but man was that a total blast to play, game-breaking bugs and all.
 
he's like the ultimate jobber. if you really want to prove someone is powerful, have them beat goku's main rival.

Piccolo pretty much became "enhancement talent". This was a guy who use to rival Goku, so what better way to make a new evil enemy seem tough than having Piccolo get his ass kicked by them. Especially when it's stated how smart and strategic he is which doesn't very often seem to be the case that much. In the end Piccolo becomes usually the first or "big" causality to push how serious the situation should be....only the guys gone down so much it pretty much losses it's impact fairly quick.

It has a name actually

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect
 
He was strongest for barely any time at all, and then when it came time for space & time room training, he barely made any improvement - despite assumedly half of his body having done no physical training for 400+ years.

That's why I said a brief period. If he'd been fast enough on the draw to take out imperfect Cell or 17, he would've stopped the android saga far earlier.
 
You know what's bullshit about this scene, and fight in general.

All these fuckers are content to stand on the side and let Goku and Cell fight solo, then Gohan and Cell fight solo.

It isn't until "oh shit, Gohan's arm is out of commission and he might actually lose, and we're all gonna fucking die!" that they decide to oh I dunno, GANG UP ON THE THREAT TO THE PLANET FOR THE GREATER GOOD.

All that honor and 1 v 1 crap goes straight out of the window when the situation becomes dire enough that everyone might die horribly. :P

You see this repeatedly by the Saiyans and it gets even more ridiculous in the Buu saga until again "Oh shit, we're about to die, time to team up and stop the threat after indulging ourselves!"

I love DBZ btw. :)

That's why the Goku + Gohan + Krillin + Yajirobe VS Vegeta fight is one of my favorite fights in the franchise. It took so many techniques and teamwork to defeat Vegeta, it was a very satisfying battle. Even Goku + Piccolo + Gohan VS Raditz was great. We never quite got anything like that again, apart from the final battle with Kid Buu I guess.
 
He is pretty strong.

When he merged with Kami he was stronger than Super Saiyan 1 Vegeta who was a little bit stronger than Super Saiyan Goku.
Who were both alot stronger than Freezer who was at his time the strongest in the universe.

And then Android 18 beat Vegeta who was alot stronger than him.
But semi-perfect Cell was stronger than her and Piccolo was a tiny bit stronger than him.

So yeah strong.
If not for the Super Saiyans he would be the strongest in the universe?
(apart from Dabura maybe)
 
I asked the same question last page, someone needs to answer this :(

Where does Brolly fit in amongst SS3/4/Fusion characters?

Broly's strength seems to increase the longer he's in battle. In theory he's like the Saiyan Hulk, just getting stronger and angrier as time goes on.

If we go with the movies, it takes 3 Super Saiyans (one a ssj2) combining their powers to beat him for good.

Putting aside all the ridiculous numbers and multipliers of various sources, it's a fair bet he's probably equal to a SSJ3. However, that's complete conjecture on my part. All we know is he's stronger than SSj2 easily.
 
That's why I said a brief period. If he'd been fast enough on the draw to take out imperfect Cell or 17, he would've stopped the android saga far earlier.

My point was really how he (like everyone else) went from being a rival or teammate to a near useless also-ran like every other non-saiyajin when toriyama really went off the deep end post Frieza.

Him fusing with Kami should have been HUGE after the King Piccolo saga, but it was a damp squib.
 
If DBZ ever gets rebooted for some reason, I hope they level the characters up evenly.

A new reboot would probably make the Z-fighters irrelevant again. The last movie had the villain soloing everyone with a pair of chopsticks. Goku had to get a huuuuuuuge powerful just to be even near the dudes level. Dragonball GT isn't considered canon anyways, the new movie pretty much firmly confirms it isn't.
 
Personally I am waiting for the heavily rumoured but still unannounced Kai version of the Majin Buu arc.

Wouldn't mind watching it again for nostalgia's sake. But nothing in the world will make me sit through hours of filler and crap pacing.
 
I got a theory that the senzu beans were just regular beans and it was all a placebo effect. Korin you dirty dog cat.
 
He used a very, very powerful attack that had a drawback in that he basically becomes useless when he overuses it. His energy is drained to significant degrees. All he did was float in the air and stall Cell for 15 minutes.

Krillin by then is a superior fighter, and the idea that Tenshinhan would surpass him at any point beyond his introduction in Dragon Ball kind of undermines the whole idea presented in Dragon Ball that Roshi was the superior master to Tsuru-Sen'nin. Sure, he eventually learned some things from Roshi, but Krillin was to Goku as Gyuu-Myao was to Son Gohan. He did more training than any other person besides Goku with Roshi.

It doesn't matter how long Krillin trained with Roshi. Tien was a superior fighter to Roshi, hands down, in DB. He beat him clean in the World Martial Arts tournament. The only reason Tien didn't kill him is because Roshi's morality was starting to rub off on him. Tien learned Roshi's ultimate technique just by seeing it once.

They both received the same training with Popo/Kame. And Krillin never trained with King Kai. Going forward, neither ever trained with Goku or Roshi again.
 
I don't understand why fans keep talking about power level this and power level that, when the entire point of power levels was to show how useless it was to try to quantify how strong someone is.
 
I don't understand why fans keep talking about power level this and power level that, when the entire point of power levels was to show how useless it was to try to quantify how strong someone is.

Yup. Goku was supposed to be this weakling. Just send him to this crap earth place. But he learned about friendship and all that good stuff. He fought for the right reasons and that's what gave him his strength. His love and devotion to both his friends, family and all humanity is what made him so strong. He had something to fight for.
 
Mark(u) "Hercule" Satan is the true strongest.

Piccolo's combat wisdom is far above his strength. Even Gohan thought "fuck Goku" and chose to wear Piccolo's combat gear to Cell's tournament. And Pussy Gohan from the Buu Saga wears Goku's outfit and gets his ass whooped by the big bad.

But this should be a thread about Tien. He's the best.
 
Where does Brolly fit in with all these SS4/Fusion characters?

Broly was dead in GT (not considered cannon and Broly was only in the movies) where the SSJ4 was reached. If you're talking Vegito and Gotenks. Vegito is stronger than Brolly. I think Gotenks wouldn't last long enough. Gogeta would destroy him considering its their most powerful fusion. Goku or Vegeta at full power SSJ4 would destroy Broly, even at his video game appearance as SSJ3.

156128_356105127808673_1776122279_n.jpg
 
I don't understand why fans keep talking about power level this and power level that, when the entire point of power levels was to show how useless it was to try to quantify how strong someone is.

???
Power levels were actually accurate. Higher PL directly beat lower PL all the time. The only big twist was that Earth's fighters (unlike ones from outer space) didn't walk around with full power on display, sensed ki, modified their levels during battle and had attacks that momentarily boosted readings well above their normal max. Regardless, the attack still needed to have a higher number to harm someone else (Piccolo's beam vs. Raditz).


Another chart that kinda makes no sense. These all appear to be power levels at the time of Vegeta and Nappa's arrival. Chi Chi is never at the skill of Roshi (140~). Kami is always significantly stronger than King Piccolo. All the Z fighters minus Chiaotzu have unusually high PLs for the Saiyan saga, especially Piccolo - there was no way he was almost at Nappa's level. Popo was never at 1000: Goku was only at 330~ in DB when he surpassed his former mentors Kami and Popo. You can vary the numbers depending on the source, but some of these are just outright contradictions from what we know happens on the show.

Yajirobe could be high hundreds if he really was training hard with the others on Kami's tower.
 
Tenshinhan is the GOAT. A miserable human that manages to keep Cell's second form at bay for a while

tumblr_mblgefVkzj1qfbz1so1_500.gif

If Tien had managed to keep doing that for much longer, (i.e until he literally died), he could've potentially forced Cell to the lower layers of the Earth, killing him.

Now THAT would've been a fantastic ending.

(Yes, I know this isn't going to happen realistically, but this is friggin' DBZ.)
 
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