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So why does League of Legends still have a larger playerbase than Dota 2?

Renekton

Member
But was it as big as SC: BW? You keep ignoring this point of mine, Korea can make any game into an e-sport by its playerbase alone. LoL had worked on and succeeded in penetrating this market, the original DotA mod and Dota 2 for many years never did.
A game doesn't need Korea participation at all to be e-sports.

LoL became popular way before it made a push into Korea. I remember it was circa Season 2.
 
A game doesn't need Korea participation at all to be e-sports.

Of course not, but Korea makes an e-sport big, very big. Your original point was that Dota 2 had a headstart over LoL when it launched and you reference the original DotA mod's popularity. However, you ignore the impact of Korea's playerbase to any game/e-sport.

Dota 2 did not have a headstart over LoL because it never even attempted to break into the Korean market whilst LoL was doing so at the time.
 

Renekton

Member
Of course not, but Korea makes an e-sport big, very big. Your original point was that Dota 2 had a headstart over LoL when it launched and you reference the original DotA mod's popularity. However, you ignore the impact of Korea's playerbase to any game/e-sport.

Dota 2 did not have a headstart over LoL because it never even attempted to break into the Korean market whilst LoL was doing so at the time.
This reasoning is nuts. Lots of major e-sports scenes are independent of Korea. I'm into EVO.

LoL was popular before it made the push into Korea circa S2.
 

Onyar

Member
The key is the gameplay and the pace, LoL has a gameplay much more appealing than Dota, being this last more strategic than LoL.
 
This reasoning is nuts. Lots of major e-sports scenes are independent of Korea. I'm into EVO.

LoL was popular before it made the push into Korea circa S2.

S2 is when LoL was being pushed to Korea, S2 world championship even had a Korean team on it.

My point is not arguing a game cannot be an e-sport without Korea, nor is it to refute the DotA mod's massive popularity ala China and Europe. My point is to counter your point where you assert that Dota 2 had a headstart in supplanting LoL's popularity when it launched, it did not. Why? Because Korea.
 
Because Dota 2 is the linux of RTS's and nobody wants to spend any time with its obnoxious fanbase as they've ceaselessly spouted bitter tears since week one.

Judging from this thread I believe that it's LoL fans who sprouting false informations about Dota 2 to make it looks like a bad game.
 

Qvoth

Member
Pretty sure nexon did push dota 2 in Korea few years ago
Still died though, culminating in death of dota 2's Korea server
Mvpp is pretty good lately though, even managed to win a lan tournament few months ago, so who knows? Maybe Koreans are slowly starting to notice dota 2 again
 

Renekton

Member
My point is to counter your point where you assert that Dota 2 had a headstart is supplanting LoL's popularity when it launched, it did not. Why? Because Korea.
This is insane. Korea e-sports did not make LoL more popular globally to regular joe's wanting to play a fun game with friends.
 

NGKrush

Neo Member
living in china I see 80% of the gamingcafe-computers being used for lol. maybe around 3% dota 2, 2% dota1 or wc3 mods and 15% chinese mmo's and watching tv series
 

Dremark

Banned
I think it's hilarious that DOTA 2 players can't even consider that people might prefer LOL to DOTA.

I actually quit DOTA 2 to play LOL, I have a lot more fun playing it.
 

Maddrical

Member
Because Dota 2 is the linux of RTS's and nobody wants to spend any time with its obnoxious fanbase as they've ceaselessly spouted bitter tears since week one.

Pretty hypocritical to call out an entire fanbase for being obnoxious when you post something as obnoxious as this.
 

nightmare-slain

Gold Member
The reason i stuck with League of Legends was simply because I found it easier to get into. I tried DOTA2 but couldn't pick it up even after playing LoL for a while.
 

Maledict

Member
No no no no no no no. Dota was super mega massive, opposite meaning of niche. Not unlike Counterstrike.

https://youtu.be/AnQfdSEqGDA
https://youtu.be/vNMWQdalmog
https://youtu.be/ecBWMzXPJFc

Dota was a mod that required you to both have Warcarft 3, be familiar enough with it to install the mod, and be okay playing a multiplayer only competitive game. the vast majority of WC3 players never touched the mod scene - and WC3 only sold 5 million at the time, so there's absolutely no way it's audience was "super mega massive".

Just being a stand alone game made a huge, huge difference compared to having to use a mod for WC3. That was one of the advantages of Dota 2 - because if you want to hit it big you need a stand alone game. LoL was absolutely the first to the wider market.
 

Vancouver

Member
Dota 2 is HORRIBLE for newcomers. I don't know how anyone could pick this game up nowadays. I've been playing the game for 10 years now (6.2x era) and I'm surprised it's held on as well as at is because of this issue. Riot did a great job selling LoL as an easier to learn version of Dota, which it is.


I think Dota 2's main strength is similar to CS's. The competitive scene is arguably healthier than LoL's. Dota 2 is absolutely more complex/harder, but it also rewards the increased difficulty. But LoL draws in more players with less a daunting learning curve/gameplay

I would agree with the bolded

I jumped back in back in February after around 2 years off. To me the community has become even more harsh towards "noobs"

As least now they have unranked games/practice bots where people can spend *long* time learning the nuances if they wish. But for those that jump into Ranked games right away...oh boy.

My recommendation to newcomers is to pick a couple supports and learn how to use them when they first start out.
 

daxy

Member
As a former League player, it was just what my friends were playing at the time so there's something to say for the 'being there first' argument. Once I was in I spent a stupid amount of money (and time) on the game, as did my friends, so jumping to Dota2 was effectively out of the question, although I did end up trying to learn Dota2. In the end I just called it quits with the genre because it's such a time sink and gives relatively little back. Doesn't help that the community for both is obnoxious.
 

E-flux

Member
I would agree with the bolded

I jumped back in back in February after around 2 years off. To me the community has become even more harsh towards "noobs"

As least now they have unranked games/practice bots where people can spend *long* time learning the nuances if they wish. But for those that jump into Ranked games right away...oh boy.

My recommendation to newcomers is to pick a couple supports and learn how to use them when they first start out.

It's a shame that they seem to have scrapped the "story mode". Before Reborn launched they added some singleplayer tutorial missions with custom maps and story but after one year hiatus i came back to dota and those were nowhere to be seen. I wish that they would have continued adding those for new heroes.
 

Renekton

Member
Dota was a mod that required you to both have Warcarft 3, be familiar enough with it to install the mod, and be okay playing a multiplayer only competitive game. the vast majority of WC3 players never touched the mod scene - and WC3 only sold 5 million at the time, so there's absolutely no way it's audience was "super mega massive".

Just being a stand alone game made a huge, huge difference compared to having to use a mod for WC3. That was one of the advantages of Dota 2 - because if you want to hit it big you need a stand alone game. LoL was absolutely the first to the wider market.
Did you watch the videos in the post you replied to? Go for it! Dota absolutely was huge. It had premier tournaments before LoL was born.

The mod transcended the clunky WC3 steps. In Asia at least, the cafe scene was big and allowed people to play without owning a copy. Also other means like piracy just for local LAN. China in particular was big on Dota.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Pretty hypocritical to call out an entire fanbase for being obnoxious when you post something as obnoxious as this.
I see you spent some time in the dota threads. Feeling a little bitter?

Judging from this thread I believe that it's LoL fans who sprouting false informations about Dota 2 to make it looks like a bad game.
Thats because as a Dota fan you don't have any perspective on your own insanity. This thread is a circlejerk over 'how could league have done it, it could never have been the gameplay, it must be something else' because years later dota fans still cant accept that they came in second.
 

Trigker

Member
It's really hard to switch from a MOBA to another MOBA without suffering like a slave. You have to learn 100+ heroes, 100+ items and ins/outs for almost every hero all over again. It's a pain and i think it's the main reason why people stick with their initial choice.
 
What a shitty comparison. You can't possibly want to have a levelled discussion when you clearly don't know anything about one of the two games and start with that.

LoL is more accessible, has more appealing character designs (which matters a lot in some regions) and, above all, it's just more fun than Dota for most people.

I don't get how is it so hard to understand for Dota fanboys. LoL is more fun, that's the biggest reason it has 10x (or more) the playerbase.
 

Breads

Banned
It's really hard to switch from a MOBA to another MOBA without suffering like a slave. You have to learn 100+ heroes, 100+ items and ins/outs for almost every hero all over again. It's a pain and i think it's the main reason why people stick with their initial choice.

I had the advantage of like 7 years experiance playing Dota before I played LoL but yeah - this is true. It's hard enough learning one moba. Starting to learn one with superficial similarities to one you already know sometimes felt harder than learning how to play mobas for the first time.

There is an extreme amount of Depth in mobas and if you haven't mastered one yet it is incredibly difficult to start playing another. Although HoN came before it they didn't achieve mass appeal until LoL got a public release and that's all there really is to it I imagine. If Dota 2 came out first, being a valve game and all, I imagine it would have taken the top slot.

I personally have returned to Dota though because the fact of the matter is that LoL play by plays are a more structured and, well, slower paced affair and I guess being easier for the casual observer to understand the phases/ number crunching/ skill combos helps.
 

Trigker

Member
LoL is more fun, that's the biggest reason it has 10x (or more) the playerbase.

Funny, because i think LoL is so superficial and easy that it's basically boring.
LoL is just more mainstream, but the difference in terms of quality between these games is really huge. Same difference between Arma and COD, just like other people said.
 
Funny, because i think LoL is so superficial and easy that it's basically boring.
LoL is just more mainstream, but the difference between these games are really huge. Same difference between Arma and COD, just like other people said.

And that's fine, but you are in the minority. That's a very bad comparison too, which you would know if you had played both games extensively.
 

EloKa

Member
Dota2 has a much steeper learning curve, is less forgiving for new players and has way more gaming mechanics.
LoL is more "casualized" which helps new players a lot and lets you start playing without "suffering" the first 200 hours.

Once you've managed to git gud you usually stick with your moba game.

I've played LoL for maybe 200 hours but switched as soon as Dota2 Beta was released because I was already playing a lot of Dota1 back then.
 

smudge

Member
I play Dota2 and have never played League, I have never liked Leagues graphical style and it just always put me off giving it a try.
I have a friend who plays both and he says League is just more accessible. He likens LoL vs Dota to CoD vs Counter-Strike. A fair comparison I think. He says he has to think less when playing League, whereas with dota, he has to be in the mood to play.
 
They are unnecessary added mechanics that don't make the game more fun in any way. In fact, they are literally the things that make people not like the game. If you can't understand that you aren't nearly as intelligent as you think you are.
This blows my mind. I don't have a problem with LoL or Dota, they're both doing well and that's great. That said, if you dislike Dota because you need to go to the shop to buy items or have a courier go there in your stead, that's just bizarre to me.
 
I see you spent some time in the dota threads. Feeling a little bitter?


Thats because as a Dota fan you don't have any perspective on your own insanity. This thread is a circlejerk over 'how could league have done it, it could never have been the gameplay, it must be something else' because years later dota fans still cant accept that they came in second.

My own insanity? I'm insane for liking Dota 2 now? This is new. From now on I'll just call someone who likes things I don't mad instead of respecting their opinions I guess.
It's already established in this thread that the gameplay is the reason why LoL is more appealing than Dota 2. Smaller learning curve and lesser mechanics making the game to be more accessible for casual players.
 

gai_shain

Member
Dota was a mod that required you to both have Warcarft 3, be familiar enough with it to install the mod, and be okay playing a multiplayer only competitive game. the vast majority of WC3 players never touched the mod scene - and WC3 only sold 5 million at the time, so there's absolutely no way it's audience was "super mega massive".

Just being a stand alone game made a huge, huge difference compared to having to use a mod for WC3. That was one of the advantages of Dota 2 - because if you want to hit it big you need a stand alone game. LoL was absolutely the first to the wider market.

Lets be honest here the majority of dota players pirated wc3 and played on garena which did not require a legit copy of wc3. Icefrog estimated the number of active players at about 13-15 Million people back in 2009/2010 (including the asian market). So yeah it was pretty massive
 

zer0das

Banned
I actually kind of like the Dota 2 to Linux analogy. There's a pretty diehard fan base, but a lot of people will never even consider trying it or will be easily put off by it due to the complexity. And people who swear by it will never really understand people who have no interest in it.

So they just have to figure out how to what the Dota 2 equivalent to Android would be for mass appeal? :>
 

deoee

Member
For me it is way more fun.

DOTA 2 has horrible "playness" for me with it's map and the controls.
I tried, but I just can't get into that game.

Also so much abilities have way to huge ranges and that's something I don't like at all

Edit:

The OP comparison list is laughable and he seems to be a huge Dota 2 fanboy, not knowing a thing about League...
Pfft
 
For me it is way more fun.

DOTA 2 has horrible "playness" for me with it's map and the controls.
I tried, but I just can't get into that game.

Also so much abilities have way to huge ranges and that's something I don't like at all

I think LoL controls better for people who are used to more popular game genres like shooters, due to not having things like turn-time on the heroes. If you aren't an RTS player or a DotA 1 veteran, the turn-time seems weird and just makes the game feel less responsive.

The range thing is also a pretty big difference between the games. I know a lot of people who try DotA after playing League go into their lane and they're like "What the fuck, why is the tower shooting me from a mile away?!"
 

deoee

Member
I think LoL controls better for people who are used to more popular game genres like shooters, due to not having things like turn-time on the heroes. If you aren't an RTS player or a DotA 1 veteran, the turn-time seems weird and just makes the game feel less responsive.

The range thing is also a pretty big difference between the games. I know a lot of people who try DotA after playing League go into their lane and they're like "What the fuck, why is the tower shooting me from a mile away?!"


Yeah, I think the range and "OP"-ness of everything is a big turnoff for me.
I really like to have an overview of the situation - having everything that can kill me on the screen.
In Dota I have to look around like half the map to maybe see some ability or item that stuns me.

Furthermore, last time I played, the minimap was horrible with it's colored crosses and arrows - who the hell designed this? :D
 

Atuin

Member
In terms of Brazil, the answer is pretty easy: Riot Games actually gives a shit about Brazil. They started showing up in local gaming events 4 years ago and eventually went on to host their own, and now they even have their own local broadcasting studio.

I think Valve only actually sent prize money for two local Dota 2 events ever. They never even showed up here officially.

I can only imagine the same goes for a lot of other markets that aren't the US.

Can confirm, Riot is pretty much the only major game company that thinks Nordic countries (Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland) can mean something else than just Stockholm, Sweden.
 

XAL

Member
Dota 2's most recent major tournament had like 95/111 heroes picked, what was the pick rate of LoL's most recent major tournament out of the 123 champions?

Genuinely curious.
 

XAL

Member
74 for Worlds 2015

45 for MSI 2016

Seems like the meta needs a fuckload of work.

Dota right now is probably the best it's ever been, the most balanced it's ever been. I never thought that the meta would get to the point where the entire hero pool would be viable - it's very nearly to that point right now.
 

Makareu

Member
Dota 2's most recent major tournament had like 95/111 heroes picked, what was the pick rate of LoL's most recent major tournament out of the 123 champions?

Genuinely curious.

Dota has a bigger diversity than LoL in picks, and that not even close. But it has more to do with the philosophy difference between the two games than balance.

Compared to LoL, Dota heroes are overpowered and are less likely to be reduced to a spreadsheet. In LoL, it is easier to quantify a champion, which makes min-maxing easier, and results in less diversity in picks.
 
Seems like the meta needs a fuckload of work.

Dota right now is probably the best it's ever been, the most balanced it's ever been. I never thought that the meta would get to the point where the entire hero pool would be viable - it's very nearly to that point right now.

It was kinda amazing how OG won every single game they got Elder Titan, a hero that was deemed shit-tier at that point in time by almost everyone. Every time it wasn't first banned they picked it and won.

Now everyone's playing ET :d
 

XAL

Member
It was kinda amazing how OG won every single game they got Elder Titan, a hero that was deemed shit-tier at that point in time by almost everyone. Every time it wasn't first banned they picked it and won.

Now everyone's playing ET :d

Yeah, everyone thought it was a garbage hero that had ultra situational use - just like Phoenix. There weren't even that many changes to either hero for the last few patches. It was just like "oh shit this hero is actually really fucking good why haven't we been playing this".

I can't even think of one hero that's reliably picked every game that results in a near guaranteed win. It feels like the days of "oh they picked X hero we lost" because some hero was overpowered are basically gone.

This is definitely the most fun dota has ever been and it's so fun to watch now with the diverse hero pool, the two biggest teams imploding definitely shook up the scene and made things interesting. But it seems like they're back on their feet.

Dota has a bigger diversity than LoL in picks, and that not even close. But it has more to do with the philosophy difference between the two games than balance.

Compared to LoL, Dota heroes are overpowered and are less likely to be reduced to a spreadsheet. In LoL, it is easier to quantify a champion, which makes min-maxing easier, and results in less diversity in picks.

This sounds...horrible, like something is fundamentally flawed with the design philosophy. You might as well start throwing out heroes at that point if the pro scene relies on such a small % of heroes because other ones aren't even remotely viable in competitive.
 
Dota was a mod that required you to both have Warcarft 3, be familiar enough with it to install the mod, and be okay playing a multiplayer only competitive game. the vast majority of WC3 players never touched the mod scene - and WC3 only sold 5 million at the time, so there's absolutely no way it's audience was "super mega massive".

In the markets it was massively popular, I can assure you that 90% of the DotA players didn't use a legit WC3 copy. That's why Garena and similar services exploded in popularity.
When a new patch was out, in the official site alone it'd get more than 10 million downloads pretty quickly. That's not counting the countless other sites with mirrors of their own, and people downloading from inside the game.

It may not have been massive in the US, but in LatAm, part of Europe, China and part of Southeastern Asia, DotA was pretty absolutely massive. WC3 sales barely made a difference, as most of those players were in Lan Houses playing pirated copies.
 

Gorger

Member
Dota 2 is HORRIBLE for newcomers. I don't know how anyone could pick this game up nowadays. I've been playing the game for 10 years now (6.2x era) and I'm surprised it's held on as well as at is because of this issue. Riot did a great job selling LoL as an easier to learn version of Dota, which it is.


I think Dota 2's main strength is similar to CS's. The competitive scene is arguably healthier than LoL's. Dota 2 is absolutely more complex/harder, but it also rewards the increased difficulty. But LoL draws in more players with less a daunting learning curve/gameplay

Why is DOTA harder to pick up? I came into both games late and I found Dota much easier to learn. A lot of it because I could play All Random or Single Draft with every hero which included several bult-in custom guides to help me understand their abilities, what to pick at each level up and the best items for my hero.

I also do not have to deal with the daunting talent/mastery system or be completely screwed from the start because I picked the wrong trinket.

In Dota everything is even when the game starts no matter how much money you've spent on the game. In LoL you must level up, buy heroes with real money and pick the right talents for your mastery tree to get the maximum performance out of your hero.

LoL does not reward experimentation, so unless you pick a hero you absolutely know and have carefully read an online guide to, you will be at a huge disadvantage. Which is why my LoL games became really tedious with the same free meta heroes over and over.

Also the matches got constantly surrendered every time ours or the other team had a slight early advantage which was incredible annoying, cause I hardy got to practice mid/late game when trying out new heroes. Comebacks happens all the time in Dota, and is one of the most rewarding aspects in MOBA games, but here people abuse the surrender button to no end.
 

Trigker

Member
6.87 and 6.88 are BY FAR the best patches of Dota since a lot of time. Icefrog really got the best out of every single hero and he's trying to make everyone viable. Right now there are a few heroes stronger than the others in the same role, but the important factor is that no one is broken.
 

Artdayne

Member
This sounds...horrible, like something is fundamentally flawed with the design philosophy. You might as well start throwing out heroes at that point if the pro scene relies on such a small % of heroes because other ones aren't even remotely viable in competitive.

It's not fundamentally flawed, the vast majority of champions can be played at anything below the pro scene and be viable. A lot of it is based on the meta with League so while the champion pool at any specific time may only include 60% of the champions, the actual champions in that pool will often change. Not to mention, just looking at the champions that are played at the highest level isn't the only way to judge how balanced they are.

League of Legends
highest win rate in ranked: 55.4%
lowest win rate in ranked: 44.5%

Dota 2
highest win rate in ranked: 60.47%
lowest win rate in ranked: 35.27%
 

Skinpop

Member
dota isn't designed to appeal to newcomers. so "unintuitive" stuff like denying, multiple shops, damage types and so on doesn't matter. it's assumed that the player already has hundreds of hours played and at that point the "obtuseness" is irrelevant since players learn along the way anyway. New players are often brought in and trained by friends so the steep learning curve doesn't really matter. For myself and the people I've brought in, we've all found the experience of learning and figuring stuff out from the beginning rewarding and fun. People who come from other mobas usually feel that the game is wrong, and have a hard time adjusting, this is obviously also true for dota people who try league.

I wouldn't attribute lols success to gameplay or streamlining. It matters to some small degree but it's 90% timing and the fact that moba players really hate switching games.
LoL was one of the first big f2p games and at the time it came out there was no other free modern moba experience available. HoN was pretty good but the price tag sealed its fate. When dota 2 came out lol was already pretty huge and those players were never gonna switch.

I do however think that valves strategy for china and korea failed(which is how big % of LoLs userbase?). From what I understand steam has no presence there and so valve had to outsource administration of the game servers and infrastructure to perfect world and nexon. this happened too late and was too much of a half assed effort. for example it's a much more annoying and troublesome procedure to acquire a dota account than lol in these countries.

So anyway, I think lol could have been identical to dota in terms of mechanics and still had the same success because their popularity was based on timing and business advantages in the Chinese market.

Personally I prefer dota 2. All the mechanics and gameplay aside, in dota every hero is truly unique in terms of what it does. There is almost no redundancy and no real substitute for any given hero. lol has more champions because that's how they make money, they are incentivized to release heroes even if it doesn't help the game. in dota they'd need a unique design which is hard enough to come up with after more than 100 released heroes and even then there so much that can be done with existing heroes in terms in terms of balancing and redesigns that there really isn't much of a need for more stuff.

Additionally in terms of software engineering and the game client/infrastructure, valve is so far ahead of the competition that it's not even funny. it's 2016 and LoL still doesn't have replays? how is that acceptable?

It's not fundamentally flawed, the vast majority of champions can be played at anything below the pro scene and be viable. A lot of it is based on the meta with League so while the champion pool at any specific time may only include 60% of the champions, the actual champions in that pool will often change. Not to mention, just looking at the champions that are played at the highest level isn't the only way to judge how balanced they are.

League of Legends
highest win rate in ranked: 55.4%
lowest win rate in ranked: 44.5%

Dota 2
highest win rate in ranked: 60.47%
lowest win rate in ranked: 35.27%
dota 2 is balanced around competitive play not pub games, so those numbers don't matter much.
For example earth spirit has a 42% win rate in pubs, io 34%. #1 at 60% is omni which is never seen in competitive play.
Player skill and team play matters enormously in terms of what heroes are viable.
 

Vade

Member
This thread shows exactly why dota 2 is getting crushed by LOL and HON got crushed. Riot Games has the best marketing, backroom dealing, propaganda, and slight of hand since Goebbels.

You have a company started up by stealing a community forum's designs for new characters and putting up a go play this new game dota is dead. Puts out a anonymous, Pendragon, hit piece on the designer/updater of dota at the time. A company that pays or demanded their game and only their game be shown less they pull funding. Getting funding from Tencent which is then used to be more controlling and soon there are no independent tournaments except one at the end of their first league. Riot Gaming runs a controlled, closed circuit meaning they control their game, only they can run it and then lend out the game to associates (second party) similar to SC:2.

About that propaganda; the Riot team is so good they managed to convince players that not having all the tools in the game is ok, and might even be 'Toxic TM. A 'competitive' quote "we built LOL from the ground up to be competitive" that has no official replays, no spectator mode that allows an individual's play to be analysis (I.E. what keys is he/she pressing where is their vision, where is their cursor, no test or sandbox mode either for practice/warm up.

This not even the classic 'gated start' where a brand new player would have to play as of May last year 351 days or 8424 straight hours to have all the characters (Champions TM.), strategic, player choice (Runes TM.) to be on level footing with a 'Pro' or even long time [/s]cultist[/s] community member. Hopefully after those 8424 hours they will also have the same experience level. There is the possibility one could just buy all (Champions TM.) which using a closed ecosystem (RIOT POINTS TM.) would cost around $590 as of last year. I am sure all the accountants out their could devise a scheme for when sales or discounts happen and lower that cost, but on a standard level we are looking at that.

On the other side of this spectrum you have Valve with dota2 which tries the hardest to outsource everything including but not limited to, china quality TM., marketing, prize pools, cosmetic items, marketing, bug fixing, and balancing.

On one side we have a company that took Blizzard 'We know what you want and you don't want that" to heart and would stab anyone who gets in the way of that to the company that is so carefree they attempt to kill players with (china quality TM.).

The truth is Riot Games and Valve Corporation are asses and we won't be working with them in the future.
 
It's not fundamentally flawed, the vast majority of champions can be played at anything below the pro scene and be viable. A lot of it is based on the meta with League so while the champion pool at any specific time may only include 60% of the champions, the actual champions in that pool will often change. Not to mention, just looking at the champions that are played at the highest level isn't the only way to judge how balanced they are.

League of Legends
highest win rate in ranked: 55.4%
lowest win rate in ranked: 44.5%

Dota 2
highest win rate in ranked: 60.47%
lowest win rate in ranked: 35.27%
Omniknight has the highest winrate in pub and he didn't get picked once in the last major tournament.
 
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