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[TharpDaddy]

I think it mostly comes down to being more accessible. League has plenty of depth for those who want it, but the skill floor is lower than Dota's. They just appeal to different people. Both have their place.

Momentum and waifu bait.

Can confirm. I play League for my waifu Rek'sai.

 

[Calvero]

Can confirm. I play League for my waifu Rek'sai.

awwwww yeaaaah

 

[zombieshavebrains]

Meh, Dota feels unnecessary complex and I dislike the dark style of the map and characters compared to the brighter LoL map/characters and clean UI. Yes you can add more stuff to make it complex, but does it make it more fun?

If you put the time in Dota is extremely rewarding. A portion of the world population finds that the complexity does it make it more fun.

This post is probably a drive by but i'm pretty interested in what people find unnecessary complex about Dota. Not aiming to flame anyone. For me, because Dota was so complex was the reason why I just wanted to learn more. Even pros still make mistakes because you can't remember everything about the game.

 

[Kenai]

Not a stranger to "harder" or 'grindy" games (played a lot of EQ/FFXIoldschool RPGs that have come and gone) and still vastly prefer LoL.

It's probably been said before, but a lot of the 'extras" in DOTA 2's gameplay aren't things I actually find fun. Things like the secret shop and couriers and even needing items just to recall. And why would I find it more fun? I dunno. And yes, i don't feel as if Valve has been anywhere near as engaging community-wise as Riot or Blizzard have here or overseas, at least not on a regular basis. They might have other games and other stuff to do but at the end of the day that's just an excuse.

LoL is definitely deep enough so that you can still spend a LONG time learning the basics and eventually getting good at the game without having anywhere near as steep a learning curve as DOTA 2's. IIRC 93%? of the playerbase is still ranked Bronze or Silver or doesn't play ranked at all.

I also find LoL's character designs more memorable and appealing, but that's more subjective obv.

That being said, I love a lot of the stuff about DOTA 2 outside the actual gameplay./artsyle Love the marketplace to trade/get rid of vanity stuff I didn't want, for example.

At the end of the day it's probably about accessibility and marketing and community engagement for most though. The other stuff is just a bonus or not enough of a deterrent.

 

[TheYanger]

If you put the time in Dota is extremely rewarding. A portion of the world population finds that the complexity does it make it more fun.

This post is probably a drive by but i'm pretty interested in what people find unnecessary complex about Dota. Not aiming to flame anyone. For me, because Dota was so complex was the reason why I just wanted to learn more. Even pros still make mistakes because you can't remember everything about the game.

I mean, this thread is literally full of examples, just read the thread.

Yes pros make mistakes, but they make mistakes in league and every other game too, nobody can play these games close to perfectly, they're already very complex.

 

[Iscariot]

It was already a very casual moba when it launched (for the time) and as time's gone by it's been trying to simplify and streamline it's systems as hard as it can.

I started playing since the Leona patch and quit recently. There's hardly any strategy involved anymore and with few exceptions the champions released tend to have simple overloaded kits.

I feel this huge push towards reaction times and "plays" rather than proper teamwork and strategy. Probably the reason I stopped playing.

LOL will most likely still keep the userbase advantage over any other moba just because it's constantly aiming for the lowest denominator.

If competitive is anything to go by you have it back ass-wards. It's less about plays and mechanics and more about macro play, bouncing waves, vision control, rotating between objectives blah blah. The stuff Faker could do solo 3 seasons ago doesn't work anymore. It's much more team oriented than ever.

 

[Imperfected]

Even pros still make mistakes because you can't remember everything about the game.

I really hope you're just using imprecise language, here. A person who plays a game for eight hours a day or more and competes at the highest level should not be making mistakes. They can lose--they can be outsmarted, physically incapable of matching their competition, or simply undone by circumstance--but they should not be making mistakes.

A chess grandmaster does not, on occasion, say, "Oh crap, I forgot the Knights were the ones that do that L-move thing."

 

[Krabboss]

The answer is it came out before Dota 2.

It's also easier than Dota 2.

 

[Anno]

I really hope you're just using imprecise language, here. A person who plays a game for eight hours a day or more and competes at the highest level should not be making mistakes. They can lose--they can be outsmarted, physically incapable of matching their competition, or simply undone by circumstance--but they should not be making mistakes.

A chess grandmaster does not, on occasion, say, "Oh crap, I forgot the Knights were the ones that do that L-move thing."

A pretty notable pro once forgot that he was playing one of...3? heroes that can't buy a Skullbasher. But hey, it's EE, he's crazy.

 

[Renekton]

The answer is it came out before Dota 2.

Dota 1?

 

[zombieshavebrains]

A pretty notable pro once forgot that he was playing one of...3? heroes that can't buy a Skullbasher. But hey, it's EE, he's crazy.

That's one of the ones I was thinking of.

 

[Artanisix]

the waifus aint as cute in dota 2

 

[Imperfected]

A pretty notable pro once forgot that he was playing one of...3? heroes that can't buy a Skullbasher. But hey, it's EE, he's crazy.

That's like, a 1-in-100 thing in terms of professional games, right? I mean, I only really watch The International and the finals of some Majors, but I don't think legitimate gameplay errors are a huge factor in professional play.

And that's a good thing: if your game is so complex that the literal best player in the world cannot play it correctly with relatively high consistency, you've probably fucked up.

 

[Haly]

the waifus aint as cute in dota 2

Name a single waifu cuter than Mei.

 

[RedZaraki]

Darker visuals.

Yes, it's a stupidly important and inexplicable thing, but it truly matters.

 

[Isaccard]

Poor Heroes of the Storm

 

[BurgerDicks]

anyone just playing for waifus should evaluate their lives and give themselves an A+

 

[Anno]

That's like, a 1-in-100 thing in terms of professional games, right? I mean, I only really watch The International and the finals of some Majors, but I don't think legitimate gameplay errors are a huge factor in professional play.

And that's a good thing: if your game is so complex that the literal best player in the world cannot play it correctly with relatively high consistency, you've probably fucked up.

Yeah I'm mostly kidding because it's just a dude that everyone loves to poke fun at. I do think there are a lot of legitimate errors in terms of execution because the game is just super hard, but there don't tend to be a lot in terms of knowledge.

 

[zombieshavebrains]

I mean, this thread is literally full of examples, just read the thread.

Yes pros make mistakes, but they make mistakes in league and every other game too, nobody can play these games close to perfectly, they're already very complex.

I see a lot of complaining about Dota and how LoL is superior because it got rid of the things they feel are dumb.

Having two shops is not complex. Having terrain is not archaic and not complex. Denying a creep is not complex. I'd say game sense, knowing when you have an advantage and how to use it, knowing when to fight, getting used to combining spells/items, etc. would be complex.

You can't read the wiki and have tangible knowledge of that. That what playing the game does. You learn and get better at those things.

 

[Technosteve]

Name a single waifu cuter than Mei.

 

[Daft Punk]

I see a lot of complaining about Dota and how LoL is superior because it got rid of the things they feel are dumb.

Having two shops is not complex. Having terrain is not archaic and not complex. Denying a creep is not complex. I'd say game sense, knowing when you have an advantage and how to use it, knowing when to fight, getting used to combining spells/items, etc. would be complex.

You can't read the wiki and have tangible knowledge of that. That what playing the game does. You learn and get better at those things.

Nah. Give everyone universal spells. Let people disappear into bushes. I even heard someone say having courier is too complicated. Using the donkey is too complicated. Sheesh.

 

[Krabboss]

Dota 1?

Wasn't a global phenomenon on the scale of LoL or Dota 2. A lot of WC3 DotA players migrated to LoL and HoN in the early days of the both. LoL snowballed from the early momentum.

The people that stayed with WC3 and HoN moved on to Dota 2, but it was already too late. LoL had eaten up a large market share.

Yeah I'm mostly kidding because it's just a dude that everyone loves to poke fun at. I do think there are a lot of legitimate errors in terms of execution because the game is just super hard, but there don't tend to be a lot in terms of knowledge.

The skullbasher thing wasn't entirely an error. You could buy Abyssal on heroes with bash in DotA and the 2 second reliable stun through BKB was sometimes worth it. In Dota 2, instead of just disabling the passive on the item, they just made it so bash heroes can't buy it.

 

[Anno]

The skullbasher thing wasn't entirely an error. You could buy Abyssal on heroes with bash in DotA and the 2 second reliable stun through BKB was sometimes worth it. In Dota 2, instead of just disabling the passive on the item, they just made it so bash heroes can't buy it.

Again, I'm mostly poking fun at EE. But c'mon, I'm sure he knew this if someone just asked him, he just forgot in the moment. I agree though that it's silly; it's one of the few times that Dota just invalidates certain systems "because" rather than through proper balance.

 

[Krabboss]

Again, I'm mostly poking fun at EE. But c'mon, I'm sure he knew this if someone just asked him, he just forgot in the moment. I agree though that it's silly; it's one of the few times that Dota just invalidates certain systems "because" rather than through proper balance.

iirc he paused the game and all chatted "bug?"

He didn't know, he just probably hadn't had a reason to buy Abyssal on a bash hero in Dota 2 yet. I think a lot of pros from the WC3 days would have made the same mistake.

 

[Anno]

iirc he paused the game and all chatted "bug?"

He didn't know, he just probably hadn't had a reason to buy Abyssal on a bash hero in Dota 2 yet. I think a lot of pros from the WC3 days would have made the same mistake.

Maybe. I think he said something like LOL NM shortly thereafter. With how much Troll he must have played that patch I can't imagine he never tried to buy Basher, much less on prior patches.

 

[Renekton]

Wasn't a global phenomenon on the scale of LoL or Dota 2. A lot of WC3 DotA players migrated to LoL and HoN in the early days of the both. LoL snowballed from the early momentum.

Dota was super massive for its time, was e-sports too. Should have translated easily to Dota2 since it is mechanically exact.

LoL "released earlier" is not a legit explanation.

 

[Stronghammer22]

If anything, this thread has taught me that I am in fact, a genius. I can press a button to have the courier deliver me items, I can remember where the secret shop is. Honestly, of all the things to complain about, these just seem silly (denying included). If you were to talk about the interactions of spells and spell immunity, purges, etc that I could understand. They are complex and hard to learn. The others? Not so much.

 

[Ragnar Blackmane]

If anything, this thread has taught me that I am in fact, a genius. I can press a button to have the courier deliver me items, I can remember where the secret shop is. Honestly, of all the things to complain about, these just seem silly (denying included). If you were to talk about the interactions of spells and spell immunity, purges, etc that I could understand. They are complex and hard to learn. The others? Not so much.

The question is not whether or not you got the intellect to do those things, the question is whether or not those things are integral to the game and whether or not the game would be better off without them because complexity upon complexity not necessarily makes for a better alternative to a more elegant and streamlined experience, a good example would be losing gold on death. The thing is that the whole debate is rather subjective and depends on personal preferences, but people elevating Dota2 because of the stuff and belitteling League and particularly it's players is amusing, even if annoying.

Personal preferences, how do they work.

because it's watered down. like overwatch did with the FPS.

Is watering down the FPS formula even possible, at least more than it has already been done in the past decade if not longer?

 

[Wendel Clark]

because it's watered down. like overwatch did with the FPS.

 

[Artdayne]

I prefer League of Legends because I find the characters are more interesting and more fun to play. Dota has a lot of depth, some of which is archaic design but there is a lot of depth there. I just didn't like the characters nearly as much. I also feel like League requires more quick twitch reactions.

This has been mentioned by others but the carrot on the stick of gradually unlocking champions actually works quite well. It helps you to learn that new champion you've unlocked more easily while maintaining a champion pool that isn't overwhelming.

 

[Hard]

because it's watered down. like overwatch did with the FPS.

fam

bruh

m8

 

[cm1j]

I think Riot being on the front foot with marketing in the beginning helped it along

Dota > LoL

 

[jotun?]

Because denies fucking suck

 

[Hackworth]

League is relatively easy to get into: you play as one character and that character's gameplay is easier than DOTA or any other MOBAs I've played. Stuff like runes adds to complexity but honestly you can do without at low levels so everything stays relatively easy. League's complexity is loaded into stuff like champions, positioning, farming & items: it's all necessary complexity.

Also you don't lose your gold on death because that's dumb as hell, why would anyone put that into a MOBA.

Can confirm. I play League for my waifu Rek'sai.

Dem teef mayne.

 

[SirPinkyNose]

League is relatively easy to get into: you play as one character and that character's gameplay is easier than DOTA or any other MOBAs I've played. Stuff like runes adds to complexity but honestly you can do without at low levels so everything stays relatively easy. League's complexity is loaded into stuff like champions, positioning, farming & items: it's all necessary complexity.

Also you don't lose your gold on death because that's dumb as hell, why would anyone put that into a MOBA.

Dem teef mayne.

You won't lose any gold on death if you know how to manage reliable golds, which everyone who has basic understanding to the game would do.

 

[Imperfected]

I think Riot being on the front foot with marketing in the beginning helped it along

Dota > LoL

Marketing in general.

Valve is more than a bit complacent when it comes to "crowd-sourcing" marketing and e-sports management. I do think it would be a completely different world in front of us right now if they had taken a more active and engaged role in things.*

*Not necessarily a better one, they could have had a real "teething" period where they made things worse like Blizzard did with e-sports, but I think they would at least have significantly more Asian market penetration.

 

[Zocano]

Because denies fucking suck

I actually really like that denies are a thing in DotA 2. It's one of the things that I really missed and didn't enjoy being gone when I tried LoL and HotS.

But to answer the question: Waifus. It's the waifus.

Also the games aren't automatically 30 minutes long and often go to an hour long. I love DotA 2 but it's a commitment every time you go in. It's not a game I can play "on the side". It's a game I just immerse myself in and nothing else because I need to be focused and committed when I play it otherwise it's not worth it for me. Also having other people to play with is a problem but I don't go to DotaGAF and haven't played in a while so there's that.

 

[Qvoth]

afaik it's only recently that lol's playerbase is actually reducing?
probably because of the solo q thing supposedly never coming back

dota 2's skill floor is higher, so it's understandably less popular

 

[kneePat]

Dota 1?

You're being deliberately obtuse. Dota 1 is a mod for WC3, and if you're referring to DoTA Allstars (which you are erroneously calling 'Dota 1'), then its a mod of an expansion pack to WC3. Both of which are not F2P.

 

[Zambatoh]

It probably helps that there's a great deal of r34 for the game. So the characters probably hold a lot of sway over people.

 

[Qvoth]

after 5 years of ti, i think it's probably obvious that dota will never reach lol's popularity
that's fine

 

[Reaganomics]

I played League for years and tried out DOTA 2 on a whim. At the time there was no tutorial and no practice so i shat it up in a public game and got screamed at. Never went back

 

[Dylan]

Sex sells.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

You left out Leagues plus
Not valve


I'm bias just by name

 

[Biltmore]

I see a lot of complaining about Dota and how LoL is superior because it got rid of the things they feel are dumb.

Having two shops is not complex. Having terrain is not archaic and not complex. Denying a creep is not complex. I'd say game sense, knowing when you have an advantage and how to use it, knowing when to fight, getting used to combining spells/items, etc. would be complex.

You can't read the wiki and have tangible knowledge of that. That what playing the game does. You learn and get better at those things.

People think those things are dumb or complex, which is why they think LoL is better. It doesn't matter that you think they aren't.

Sure, League came first, which helped, but it also removed a lot of things people hate that Dota 2 still does, which is why it's still more popular even facing a Valve made sequel to the daddy of all MOBAS. LoL has more than enough complexity without being overbearing which makes it more enjoyable to more people.

If anything, this thread has taught me that I am in fact, a genius. I can press a button to have the courier deliver me items, I can remember where the secret shop is. Honestly, of all the things to complain about, these just seem silly (denying included). If you were to talk about the interactions of spells and spell immunity, purges, etc that I could understand. They are complex and hard to learn. The others? Not so much.

They are unnecessary added mechanics that don't make the game more fun in any way. In fact, they are literally the things that make people not like the game. If you can't understand that you aren't nearly as intelligent as you think you are.

 

[Doctor Ironic]

Character uniqueness and memorability highly different.

Yeah, no dude, it's marketing.

Brief reminder that when Dota 2 had to make a spider character, it looked like this:

and when League had to make one, it looked like this:

Like I said dude, waifus are the reason LoL is so much more popular.

Dota 2 has a literal sex demon as a hero.

LoL has literal sex demons as all of its female characters.

 

[Quonny]

Sex sells.

Dota 2 has a literal sex demon as a hero.

 

[TheYanger]

Yeah, no dude, it's marketing.

Brief reminder that when Dota 2 had to make a spider character, it looked like this:



and when League had to make one, it looked like this:



Like I said dude, waifus are the reason LoL is so much more popular.



LoL has literal sex demons as all of its female characters.

It's embarassing that you guys keep trying to sai WAIFUS as if it's some undermining point. Because Dota doesn't have female heroes with low cut outfits and breasts?

It's the same shit people try to say about overwatch, another game where you don't see your character at all while you're playing (you see yourself in dota/league, but it's small and not particularly relevant).

It's almost as if people who say "Waifus" don't understand that interesting and engaging character designs are more than just sex appeal. There are plenty of games with tits all over the place that don't do well, it's not 'waifus' it's because taking a regular ass unit from warcraft 3, barely changing it, and giving it a name that befits a regular ass unit from warcraft 3 is not remotely as interesting as making a backstory, creating a CHARACTER from scratch, and designing them to look like they could each be a main character in any other kind of game instead of a fodder ass unit in an rts.

Sorry, but I don't like Graven because he's my "waifu" just like I don't enjoy Crystal Maiden despite her having boobs (a thing I enjoy greatly, for the record).

Shit, in fact, I even think Jaina Proudmore is VASTLY more interesting than "Crystal Maiden" despite the fact that Crystal Maiden is literally a clone of Jaina. Know why? Because Jaina is a character with personality and a story and a history that is conveyed in the games she's in, while Crystal Maiden is 'reskinned jaina' that nobody gives a fuck about. And no, it doesn't matter if you can get the stories for these characters on the website. I don't have to go to a website to get the personality of Janna in League or Jaina in wow.

EDIT: I will say, this aspect would probably fail even if they did it better in DotA, almost purely due to the weird grimdark aesthetic they have going on. How you copy a bright and cartoony game like warcraft 3 and use the exact same designs but fail to realize that they shouldn't be colored and shaded like semi-realistic garbage is beyond me. It's like stripping the charm out of disney.

Now to get back on topic, just compare a marine to say, Jim Raynor. Jim Raynor is a CHARACTER. a marine is a unit. In SC1 they effectively looked exactly the same (different portrait) and they controlled the same with mildly different stats. Yet a decade later people still fucking cared about Jim Raynor. That's the difference between Dota units and League units. "Waifu" nonsense is reductive bullshit.

 

[Qvoth]

queen of pain is a succubus, but in game she's more like a SM queen

 

[Haly]

There's not much difference between succubi and SM queens. One is just allegory for the other.