Sure. I'm not trying to argue that Dota is somehow objectively better because it's more fiddly. I just don't think removing many of the systems because it can now be done would make the game better. The two games are different and should stay that way. It's not like either game is hurting for players.
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So why does League of Legends still have a larger playerbase than Dota 2?
- Thread starter ScOULaris
- Start date
Sure. I'm not trying to argue that Dota is somehow objectively better because it's more fiddly. I just don't think removing many of the systems because it can now be done would make the game better. The two games are different and should stay that way. It's not like either game is hurting for players.
If you try to buy a secret shop item from the regular shop, it pings both secret shops on the map for you. The secret shop will always be in the same spot. I don't really understand your argument here, if there even is one.
LoL came out first and people are already bought into LoL and don't want to start over learning and acquiring things in DOTA. The league season system is more fun and exciting than DOTA's just ranked match thing. LoL can be a lot more fun to just jump in and play, it's slightly easier to get into and feels more arcadey. LoL runs better on less powerful systems. I'm sure there are many other reasons it's bigger. I have probably close to 1000 hours in both games and usually when I want to play a MOBA these days I find myself having more fun in LoL for whatever reason.
Here we go. I've put over 800+ hours into Dota 2 and went over to LoL on a whim from a friend. It's like going from ARMA 2 to CoD. The game is super simplified and things that I did usually in Dota, I could no longer do in LoL. No denying? What? I digress though. The fact that the game is super simplified as well as being able to run on a toaster is what has contributed to the population as a vast majority of people who play the game are asians in PC lounges and such.
SirPinkyNose
Member
There are still empty space in Dota 1's npc shops at base right now as we are speaking. If they want to they can also add more npc.
About denial mechanic. You can not attack your own units at all if they have above 50% hp. You can't also attack your own towers at all if they have above 10% hp.
My main Moba is LoL, i tried DotA and i found it incredibly much more complicated, i also played Heroes of the Storm which was much more easier and newbie friendly than either DotA or LoL.
I think thats the general gist of why:
HotS: Easy, Casual friendly, arguably less toxic
LoL: Medium, Challenging but not overly complicated, has depth, Toxic
DotA: Hard, much more complex and deeper, also Toxic
I can see why most people would go for the middle option rather than the lower or higher skill bars.
I think thats the general gist of why:
HotS: Easy, Casual friendly, arguably less toxic
LoL: Medium, Challenging but not overly complicated, has depth, Toxic
DotA: Hard, much more complex and deeper, also Toxic
I can see why most people would go for the middle option rather than the lower or higher skill bars.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Riots champions have gotten better since a year or two ago when they were saying any ability you can use on an ally had grief potential so it was 'anti-fun' or 'toxic' or whatever buzzword they were using at the time.
Since then, they've added ways for teammates to displace you, put you in stasis, create new pathways for you, etc.
At the same time, the newer champion design sucks with an overuse of 'hit 3 times to debuff' bullshit, and overly complicated abilities where Q, W and E have multiple effects depending from debuffs or passives.
Since then, they've added ways for teammates to displace you, put you in stasis, create new pathways for you, etc.
At the same time, the newer champion design sucks with an overuse of 'hit 3 times to debuff' bullshit, and overly complicated abilities where Q, W and E have multiple effects depending from debuffs or passives.
I've tried a dozen times to get into Dota as a long time league player and I just can't do it. League's learning curve and burden of knowledge is huge but it doesn't even begin to approach Dota. Dota just feels like complexity for the sake of being complex
The answer is accessibility with a bit of "runs on toasters" sprinkled in
This thread is the last place I expected lol reddit to leak into though lol
The answer is accessibility with a bit of "runs on toasters" sprinkled in
This thread is the last place I expected lol reddit to leak into though lol
As an RTS fan, I know this, which is why it hurts. ;~; MOBAS were basically invented for those that enjoyed the hero interaction of Warcraft 3, but not the actual building and micromanagement.
DotA is simply too overwhelming. I don't really get why accessibility has to be discounted because as far as I was concerned, it certainly is. DotA feels like being dropped into the deep end straight away. The first few games I ever played of DotA put me off immensely. The huge amount of shops to choose from and menus to sift through, oblique advantage mechanics, everything about it felt like too much too fast. League isn't too easy of a game to get into by comparison to a lot of other things, but it certainly felt more welcoming from a mechanics standpoint.
- An incarnate of death represented by two equal and opposite mythological nature spirits.
- An obese river demon who tricks unwitting victims into bad deals and devours them.
- An enigmatic being of the cosmos
- A spirit of vengeance invoked to hunt traitors.
- A girl carrying a legendary weapon seeking the hero it's meant for yet failing to realize that hero is herself.
- A disgraced god-king of a long dead civilization of the sands.
- A time traveling delinquent.
I could be as ridiculously reductive as you and go 'and then DotA has the guy who's almost literally just the WC3 Abomination' but as I'm not familiar with DotA's champion pool, I don't really see the point in trying to start pissing contests.
League has:
- An incarnate of death represented by two equal and opposite mythological nature spirits.
- An obese river demon who tricks unwitting victims into bad deals and devours them.
- An enigmatic being of the cosmos
- A spirit of vengeance invoked to hunt traitors.
- A girl carrying a legendary weapon seeking the hero it's meant for yet failing to realize that hero is herself.
- A disgraced god-king of a long dead civilization of the sands.
- A time traveling delinquent.
I could be as ridiculously reductive as you and go 'and then DotA has the guy who's almost literally just the WC3 Abomination' but as I'm not familiar with DotA's champion pool, I don't really see the point in trying to start pissing contests.
LordRaptor
Member
Yes, it increases the skill ceiling, but is not more accessible.
"You buy things from a shop" - immediately understandable.
"You buy most things from one shop, but some things are in a different shop, and I'm not going to tell you where that shop is right now" - not immediately understandable
e:
"Kill our own dudes before the enemy can" is about as fucking counter-intuitive as it gets unless you're in the W40K Imperial Guard
Because having the shops in base be separate didn't add any gameplay, and having secret shops does. It doesn't mean it's a good decision, but I think we can all agree that having 2 guys standing next to each other selling different shit because of the item limit is not actually adding anything no matter what your stance is. It's fine though, I expect dota defenders to be obtuse about shit like this. You are also fine to prefer one over the other, but yes, bloated and archaic are both words that describe most of the 'extra' depth DotA has. Shit like denies are so nonsensical in any way other than "that's how wc3's engine works" that it's literally baffling that people defend it, but there you go - dota fans.
Mark Rosewater the lead designer for Magic the Gathering writes an article and two podcasts every week all about design topics, and one of his main rules of design is that you need to make players want to play the game in the most intuitive and fun way for them, because it's counter to their fun when the correct way to play is fighting their nature. Killing your own units is basically the definition of bad design. It feels stupid, in terms of the game world it IS stupid, and it's completely unintuitive to new players - making it obtuse for no reason. This exemplifies the type of decisions that led Dota to where it is now. Yes, you CAN make the player care about killing their own units, but how about adding that gameplay to something else that they actually think they should be doing instead? It emerged because of a broken system in the first place, and something like that it should be your job as a designer to recognize and stomp out rather than encourage. Last hitting is already effectively the same thing from a gameplay perspective, but it actually makes sense and is what the player already wants to do.
The thing is, I don't even agree wtih this. In terms of skill FLOOR, hots < league < dota. in terms of skill ceiling? I don't actually think so at all. I think people just try to be reductive of everything that they don't play when it comes to mobas and it's pretty gross. Moment to moment gameplay in hots and league are miles faster than dota, for example.
Stone Ocean
Member
Then why isn't the shop simply on the minimap? Why do you need some bizarre redirecting system to know it exists?
It's obtuse for the sake of being obtuse. There is no strategical gain from having to bloody google where something is. It's the same problem people give League shit about how Dota shows what every single spell rank does on the tooltip while League doesn't even show scalings.
Wait, do people actually argue the inclusion of the Secret Shop as a negative or a positive when comparing league to DOTA? While it does add a layer of inconvenience and provides a solid point of contestation, it's ultimately inconsequential compared to the larger differences. If you're complaining about the time it takes to get to the secret shop, or if you're complaining about not being able to make it at all before you get killed, that's ultimately on you or your team.
Yeah, the Smite model would have been good for them. Unfortunately those alternative price models weren't as popular then.
The funny thing about S2 Games (HoN Dev) they made another MOBA afterwards. It came out last year STRIFE. That game is so dead, but I had a lot of fun with it while it lasted.
I think I agree with this,I'll add a bit gimmicky to HotS since thats also part of the appeal for me, I really love the different maps and their gimmicks
Because it would clutter the UI for showing a location that's only used a handful of times every game. This is the same reason why Rosh/Baron/Dragon locations also aren't shown. It's not like the shop is actually "secret"; it's referenced in various tooltips, the actual NPC who sells you the items is clearly visible in the world from minute zero, and the game gives both audio and visual cues when you're in range.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
I haven't played League at all in probably a year, but I do read the kits for new champs when they are released. They get harder and harder to understand.
Good thing that's not what anyone is complaining about. It's indicative of the obtuse and pointless mechanics that are endemic to dota though.
I think it has to do with the fact that LoL's champions are eeeeerily similar to many of Dota's champions barring a few.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Makes me sad when I see this thread drifting towards a game war fueled by half knowledge of people that clearly play 1 game more than the other.
The stuff I read here by some people is just incredibly inaccurate.
The stuff I read here by some people is just incredibly inaccurate.
What does this even mean?
If the secret shop served no purpose, Valve could have just combined all shops into one.
Alas they didn't because having access to the secret shop is an important part of late game Dota.
What you completely fail to realize on all fronts through, is that claiming "LoL is distilled to its core" is ridiculous in the face of more than 10 years of Dota history. Dota already has removed so many aspects and streamlined a lot of shit that was really just obtuse and unnecessary.
Dota 2 is already streamlined, LoL took away a lot of complexity. Does that make LoL the better game? Maybe to you, but for me and apparently millions of others, it isn't.
In the end it's simply the same CoD vs CS debate. One game caters to more people, but that doesn't mean that all the difficult mechanics of the other one make it the lesser game. Quite the opposite.
ChaosZeroX
Banned
I quit LoL because its so rage inducing, but its easier to understand the gameplay in LoL.
I played the original Dota and Dota 2; It confused the shit outta me.
I played the original Dota and Dota 2; It confused the shit outta me.
Right. Sorry if I came across and somehow trying to imply that it does. Of course it's less accessible. I just think it's a good form of less accessible - very easy to internalize after a few hours of playtime, but always able to create tense situations in a game.
It does tell you now, though. A little flashing icon will appear on the minimap showing the location if you're trying to buy a SS item in base or in lane.
That's not how Dota works anymore.
it's really not that obtuse.
And it does have a point. It may not be the reason it was there initially.
But a lot of Dota has changed over time. The secret shop is still there because it makes it a more interesting game, because you have to leave your base to get powerful items
Early league had some champs that were pretty close to original dota champion designs, they've gotten less similar over time though, and pretty early on at that. Unless you're trying to imply that somehow dota is a paragon of orgiinality and league ripped it off? in which case...all I can do is laugh. Valve literally stole blizzard's designs and did the bare minimum to avoid getting fucked in court. League is MILES more original.
Opinions != fact. clearly most people that don't play dota don't think it makes a more interesting game. I don't. I think it's obtuse - complexity that is needlessly so. It doesn't add anything interesting to the game at all. OH SHIT WILL HE MAKE IT TO THE SECRET SHOP TO BUY THE ITEM HE WANTS?!? is not thrilling in the least, nor interesting in strategic cases in all but the most fringe moments. If something is only adding something to a match maybe 1 in 10 times it is used, it's probably a bad mechanic.
Sounds like an issue of the main shop UI if that's the case.
Glass Shark
Banned
I think it's partly due to the fact that Riot has locked people in with League's business model. They don't want to jump ship and waste whatever money they've spent on characters or runes or whatever.
You get experience and gold for getting the last hit on enemy dudes. If you kill them so your opponent doesn't get them, they get no gold. What is hard to understand about this?
You don't have to Google it though, and it isn't obtuse. It's in the same spot and mirrored on both sides of the map. Just look around the map and you can see it. That isn't obtuse, it is obvious.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Both secret shops are on the minimap. They also never move so theres no need to use the map to find them.
Yeah no doubt about that Illaoi's was a full on textbook when they released her but they cleaned that up recently. The "3 hits, real creative riot" was just a meme though.
Riot also said a few months back their next few champs would be targeting low to mid skill cap rather than high skill cap like the most recent ones. They said that before jhin released iirc
I also don't get why people seem so confused by denying creeps.
Last hits matter in mobas.
By denying you successfully made it so they can't last hit. Good job
I also don't know why people pretend like Dota doesn't have a pretty good tutorial now
Last hits matter in mobas.
By denying you successfully made it so they can't last hit. Good job
I also don't know why people pretend like Dota doesn't have a pretty good tutorial now
You answered my post two times already, and still you didn't say anything about Dota shops, you just repeated what I said. Maybe it's time to cool down and stop spitting venom, looks like you need it.
Because it's a mechanic designed around killing your own units. It's fucking idiotic. people aren't confused by it once they know how it works, they're confused by it as newbies because ITS KILLING YOUR OWN UNITS. It's the definition of a bad feature because it works against the player's intuition and rewards you for playing the game in a way that doesn't make sense.
I explained why it's a bad mechanic, but you dismiss what I say as 'spitting venom' - ok. neogaf.gif.
I was referring to the mini map UI. apart from the base terrain, the only things that are shown are team interactions (pings/drawing), units and buildings (and Phoenix's Sun Ray because it's coded weirdly for some reason) because those are the things that matter most on a second to second basic. As has been pointed out, the map shows you where the shops are if you try to buy an item that can only be bought there.
And Dota 2 isn't? Pretty much every Dota game made in the wake of the original Dota riffed many design elements from WC3. There's a clear breakpoint (and at this point I'd say maybe 30% of the characters in League have clear WC3 analogues) in when Riot moved from making WC3 hero derivatives to coming up with their own ideas (and maybe another where they started experimenting more in visual diversity), and regardless of anything Riot's approach to advertising their characters - name, title, and lore - I've found it more appealing than Dota's approach. A new champion release in League heralds short stories, short movies, Q&As about their place in the setting. It's more inviting to me than seeing a billion duders with self-explanatory titles and short blurbs about why they're there. And yes, I realize, all of those characters absolutely have lore behind them, but I don't think Dota pushes its' heroes as characters nearly as much as League does.
Abilidebob
Member
Just think about the creeps, towers and even your own allies as resources, and it makes sense.
You're DENYING the enemy team an amount of resources. All those units are only resources to win the war being fought. It's better to LOSE those resources than let your enemy take them.
Evolution of Metal
Member
I am not really talking about sexy hentai skins. Certain LoL skins are a completely new model + effects + animations + voice. Most LoL champions have design and production pipelines instead of re-working old DOTA1 heroes which were limited production mods for WC3. So much time is spent with the presentation of characters: artworks, lore, videos etc.
Overall, having a custom model for the skin allows artists to add more details than armor sets. LoL basic shading also allows for more artistic colors which isn't the case with Source shaders. LoL skins also have a lot more themes like mechs or sexy.
Compare Centaur and Hecarim. The name "Centaur" is the generic name for the centaur-based hero. Centaur has several armor sets, where Hecarim has Armored, Reaper, Haloween, Arcade, Forest skins. Most Dota skins are armor-sets, which is limited in terms of changing appearance and personality of the character. I know so many people who played the character for its skin and shit like that. The visual factors were really strong with certain champions/skins which made people WANT to play it.
So to recap, it is not about taste. It is about the production values and presentations of characters and skins.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
I love dota but the dota tutorial is absolute garbage and doesn't teach you anything that matters.
Things like lane control, creep aggro. The importance of stacking. The importance of vision.
The way you read map vision. The strategic significance of different towers.
List can go on. What the dota tutorial teaches you is insanely laughable.
Purple Cheeto
Member
I think arguing about mechanics which mechanics are good or bad doesn't really address the core issue of the topic of why LoL got and remained more popular.
Except they're not taking them, they're killing them. You have to think of them in an abstract manner for it to make sense - is basically what you're saying here. I mean shit, why not just not send our little minions out with gold in their pockets in the first place?
They're the crux of why though - the gameplay is more approachable due to the mechanical differences, and the other reason is largely the visual/lore aspects. People get attached to character,s they don't get attached to generic units.
Yet if this were true, it would probably be the more popular game, counterpoint: it has the better in none of those categories. Maybe client.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
Dota 2 has a better tutorial, better items, better heroes and better client.
Fair enough, but when it comes down to it, are the major differences in DOTA/League these legacy/archaic mechanics being talked about? It seems inconsequential compared to, say, League having summoner abilities like blink available to you immediately and DOTA locking that to an item, which to me means that naturally early game would be a lot more fast-paced. I think those should be addressed moreso than Secret Shops or Denying, both of which I agree appears to be a product of it's time as opposed to a conscious change in game flow.
Because the opinion of those who DON'T play a game regularly are a great indicator?
"OH SHIT WILL HE MAKE IT TO THE SECRET SHOP TO BUY THE ITEM HE WANTS?!? is not thrilling in the least, nor interesting in strategic cases in all but the most fringe moments"
- just shows that you have really no idea what you are talking about. Courier snipes happen in pro games all the time. Losing a 5k gold item for 5 minutes is game deciding.
Even in regular games, if your team is turtling, getting a successful buy at the secret shop buy navigating the courier around enemies while defending your base is extremely satisfying and game changing.
You might see it as production value and presentation. But I agree with Valve on the stance that heroes should be instantly recognizable. I don't know how far this goes with LoL, but Smite had heroes that went from Panda, to little Loli girl with the change of a skin.
Dota 2, btw has loading screens and special animations for certain sets.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
You keep focusing on "killing your own creeps" without understanding how crucial it is to lane equilibrium. You want to be farming your lane in the safest place possible, and in a way that makes it dangerous for the enemies in your lane. Yes, killing your own creeps through pulling or denying is crucial to this.
I don't understand why it's seemingly so confusing to newbies. All you need to do is explain how lane equilibrium works. It's all about putting yourself in an advantageous position.
SirPinkyNose
Member
1. Terrorblade?
2. Sea monster version of Pudge?
3. Literally Enigma.
4. Literally Vengeful spirit.
5. This one is new.
6. Sand version of Wraith king.
7. Time travelers are countless in Dota 2.
Dota 2's heroes might bear reassemblance of their Wc3 counterparts, but their lore are completely rewriten and their models aren't even really similar to their old ones.
Anyway I just want to point out that the claim that Dota 2's heroes are generic is incredibly ridiculous.