Keeping the enemy from gaining money is abstract?
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So why does League of Legends still have a larger playerbase than Dota 2?
- Thread starter ScOULaris
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Ghost is Bad
Banned
Nah, if anything DOTA 2 has the more dynamic early game thanks to the inclusion of dust and the limitations of vision wards to allow for ganks to happen. Also because of the symmetrical nature of LoL's map, you see a lot of the professional teams lane swap and turret trade with nothing happening in between, which is probably strategically complex, but is extremely boring to watch.
It's a good indicator of why people continue to not play that game, yes. That's literally what this thread is about.
I mean, I say this partly to be funny obviously, but I could also force myself to masturbate while I play and it would be more challenging as well - but I don't, because that's not what I'm looking for when I play a game. People don't want to 'navigate their courier to the secret shop while defending their base' they want defending their base to be the interesting part of the game about defending your base.
Considering your own units as 'enemy resources' (your OWN units), thereby justifying murdering them yourself in order to prevent them from dropping gold for the opponent as well as experience points, is the very definition of abstract.
Abilidebob
Member
Geez, why does minions in League give gold AND this magical number called experience to enemies?
Wouldn't it be great if I could, I don't know... deny the enemy the chance of getting this spawning gold that breaks some laws of physics and this magical number that makes my enemy grow stronger?
It's like in games you need to abstract certain concepts to accept them in the game experience! So obtuse!
LordRaptor
Member
If you can't see how not executing your own units as sub-optimal strategy is less accessible than just worrying about enemy units, I honestly don't know what to say.
But it's one of the answers that addresses the question of the OP.
But it's one of the answers that addresses the question of the OP.
I appreciate what you're trying here, but come on, as much as i love Poppy's current gameplay and find her lore cute, i won't pretend that her current lore is not a HUGE step down from her previous, badass lore.
I don't try to be reductive of the other games, the only reason i didn't stick to DotA is because i don't have the time to learn the game, it's a pretty good game, but Mobas are a huge time investment, people usually have to marry to just one.
And i for one ADORE the newbie friendliness and the objective focus of HotS, the lack of focus on farming and kills in tandem with the wildly varied objectives makes HotS incredibly fun to play, the reasons why i don't play it too much is because 1.- network issues i haven't been able to resolve and 2.-Again, i can only sink so much time in Mobas so i stay married to LoL
You get it, absolutely wish more mobas took this approach, i guess LoL has the Rotating queue now and the upcoming Nexus Siege mode, but still is not as varied.
Not anymore. That redesigned Dota 2 interface is dumpster tier.
Imperfected
Member
The long answer:
DOTA2 is severely hampered by trying to stay "true" to character designs that were mostly cribbed from Warcraft 3 units that were never meant to look terribly interesting or cool, aside from the handful that were already Hero units. There are simply too many "characters" that, frankly, aren't characters but rather just boring basic units with a name slapped on (Wisp, Gyro, etc.) or slightly-improved boring basic units with a new paint job.
League of Legends, by comparison, has made it a point of not only releasing an increasingly more aesthetically stylized cast of characters, but also actually going through their backlog and gradually updating the "classic" (ie, garbage) designs to that same standard as they go.
The tl;dr answer:
Same as Overwatch vs. the 101 Overwatch clones. Waifus.
DOTA2 is severely hampered by trying to stay "true" to character designs that were mostly cribbed from Warcraft 3 units that were never meant to look terribly interesting or cool, aside from the handful that were already Hero units. There are simply too many "characters" that, frankly, aren't characters but rather just boring basic units with a name slapped on (Wisp, Gyro, etc.) or slightly-improved boring basic units with a new paint job.
League of Legends, by comparison, has made it a point of not only releasing an increasingly more aesthetically stylized cast of characters, but also actually going through their backlog and gradually updating the "classic" (ie, garbage) designs to that same standard as they go.
The tl;dr answer:
Same as Overwatch vs. the 101 Overwatch clones. Waifus.
ok at this point this is coming across as ridiculously disingenuous though I'll give you benefit of the doubt and assume you have no clue what any of these characters I mentioned actually look like or how they operate because otherwise I cannot wrap my brain around comparing this to The Guy Who Looks Like Illidan
I really like her new lore, tbh.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
yeah sorry but it's still true. even if the ui is garbage, it's nothing compared to the monstrosity that is the league of legends client, which still doesn't have a working first party replay system in 2016.
They have fixed it and it is a vast improvement over when it launched.
No one is arguing denying detracts from the accessibility slightly
But there is also no need to act like it is some colossally complicated thing that no one possibly can understand
I do think League has more interesting character designs artistically. But mechanically? that is more debateable
Uh no, you tried to explain why deny is a bad mechanic, not having 3 different shops. Also, you are not really discussing, you're screaming like a crazy preacher and insulting other posters.
There's no doubt some mechanics in Dota are counter-intuitive, but maybe that's part of the appeal of Dota. It doesn't feel like a game focus grouped to death to be as appealing as possible. It feels like something a bunch of nerds threw toghether in their spare time and kept playing because it was fun.
This is what I wanted to talk about! Vision, and by extension support roles I think differ also greatly between DOTA/League. One thing I'm curious about is the supposed stereotype that League has no fluid meta, that most characters are stuck to one role, whereas DOTA, with kinda more influence towards items means that supports can become carries if they're so inclined?
That type of shit I think ties into the overall difficulty of League/DOTA and the general appeal.
Abilidebob
Member
And here it comes, the "popularity = quality" argument.
I guess that DFO and CrossFire are better games than those all those below them.
And back in 2014 Crossfire apparently was a better game than League.
How I love to use numbers to arbitrarily decide on the quality of something!
Caffeine
Gold Member
League is easier to play (like insanely easier the camera follows the character, the camera isn't so close) and it is more forgiving.
It runs on a decade old machine.
people have investment monetary, or time they don't want to detach from.
I have tried both I hate both, but if my friends asked me to play one I would pick League because its accessibly easier.
when I had dota 2 beta invites I tried pulling all my friends that played league into it not one of them have booted dota 2 since. that could be another factor if u don't know anyone playing it why would u play it if they are playing the other game.
I personally feel heroes of the storm is the easiest one out there though and it's fast.
It runs on a decade old machine.
people have investment monetary, or time they don't want to detach from.
I have tried both I hate both, but if my friends asked me to play one I would pick League because its accessibly easier.
when I had dota 2 beta invites I tried pulling all my friends that played league into it not one of them have booted dota 2 since. that could be another factor if u don't know anyone playing it why would u play it if they are playing the other game.
I personally feel heroes of the storm is the easiest one out there though and it's fast.
I have never contested the claim that League is more popular because of its simpler mechanics. Quite the opposite.
What you have claimed though that Dota is filled with obtuse ridiculous mechanics that make no sense. I have simply refuted those claims.
Your second claim on the other hand is simply not thought through.
If I follow your argument that people don't like complexity, why play LoL at all? Why not play HotS instead.
Why would I need the concept of an item shop? That is unnecessarily difficult for new players. Combining items and the lot.
Hell why even have so many different champions? That's just extremely difficult to learn and to counter?
Why not give every player the same champion so we reduce complexity that way?
See where this goes?
Also btw, all your posts make it sound like Dota is a dead game, when it is far from it. So there are more than enough players who apparently like their difficulty and complexity.
It's a nice, cute and ditzy lore to go with cute ditzy Poppy, but frumpy, no non-sense Poppy had a pretty badass background story.
Back then it was like, "Oh shit! here comes Poppy! Run!" and now it's like "Aww, here comes Poppy! I wonder what kind of wacky shenanigans will unfold!"
Yeah this is pretty much me. I've given DOTA 2 several tries but still stick to LoL.
I find it pretty shameful and disappointing how LoL lacks so many simple features, their client is years behind, still no replays etc, but I simply enjoy playing LoL more. DOTA 2 looks and feels grim to me, controls feel sluggish (I hate the "turning" of heroes), I like LoL heroes more (more fun and cool personality in them IMO).
So yeah I don't think its "LoL only has a larger playerbase because it came out first" at all.
Stone Ocean
Member
But you can do that. League doesn't have denying, it has zoning. You deny people of gold and experience by fighting them and pushing them off range experience otherwise risk getting killed.
It's a lot easier to understand than having to hit your own minions while you also worry about last hitting.
Evolution of Metal
Member
Hopefully Riot is going to revert this someday. The long-reigning douche, with 0 actual achievements, and the "genius" behind quad-q was finally let-go.
For anyone above silver, it is a problem unless you abuse it too.
DOTA has XP range too...
And dota has that too?
It always seemed weird to me that whenever a thread like this pops up a lot of people immediately start shouting some really absurd arguments about why DOTA is an awful game. Things like "The mechanics are only like that because of WC3's awful engine", "denying makes no sense" or even the dreaded "DOTA is anti-fun", so I'd like to clear up some misconceptions:
1.) It's not the fault of the WC3 engine. Seriously, WC3's map editor was an extremely powerful tool that let you change pretty much everything about the game. Turn rates, slow attack animations, denying, the shops - all of that could be changed. People saying that the engine is at fault for denying are particularly baffling, since DOTA already limits attacking allied creeps above a certain percentage of health.
2.) Denying is entirely intuitive and makes sense. Yeah, I said it. It shouldn't take long to realize 2 things: a.) Having your lane push towards the enemy tower is bad, since it makes it harder to retreat towards your tower and b.) Your lane is pushing towards the tower because your creeps are attacking the enemy creeps. It therefore makes perfect sense that your own creeps are actively hurting you and should be killed as soon as possible, which denying does. This also demonstrates why denying is incredibly important to the game and why it adds depth.
Hopefully this clears up some things for people,
1.) It's not the fault of the WC3 engine. Seriously, WC3's map editor was an extremely powerful tool that let you change pretty much everything about the game. Turn rates, slow attack animations, denying, the shops - all of that could be changed. People saying that the engine is at fault for denying are particularly baffling, since DOTA already limits attacking allied creeps above a certain percentage of health.
2.) Denying is entirely intuitive and makes sense. Yeah, I said it. It shouldn't take long to realize 2 things: a.) Having your lane push towards the enemy tower is bad, since it makes it harder to retreat towards your tower and b.) Your lane is pushing towards the tower because your creeps are attacking the enemy creeps. It therefore makes perfect sense that your own creeps are actively hurting you and should be killed as soon as possible, which denying does. This also demonstrates why denying is incredibly important to the game and why it adds depth.
Hopefully this clears up some things for people,
Why not both? Dota has both. Sometimes heroes are difficult to zone, and then then, you might not be able to keep them out of XP range, or from last hitting with a long distance cost effective spell (such as PA dagger).
LordRaptor
Member
It is an unintuitive mechanic; it is one of many unintuitive mechanics present in DOTA that LoL either streamlined or dropped, but DOTA2 - as a true successor - retained.
That doesn't make DOTA2 or those mechanics shit, or LoL players dumbfuck babbys who just cant understand even if you capslock that secretshop / denial / runes / manually assigning level up stat points / whatever are super awesome.
It makes LoL a much more accessible game, in a genre which is by its nature extremely inaccessible in the first place.
SirPinkyNose
Member
Are you talking about the background lore are you the kind of people who judge others based on how they look?
Because Dota 2's terrorblade is a demon who can manipulated 2 sides using reflection.
Stone Ocean
Member
Übermatik;208031053 said:
I'm not arguing against or for denying. My point is League's lane dynamics are far easier to grasp at a glance for a new player - which is what this thread is about.
Abilidebob
Member
And that's great. But by what the other poster was saying it could be explained as
"Why do you want to push the enemy away from your own troops? They're going to die anyway why not let them fight to the death? So obtuse".
It's fine both ways, but saying that something is "obtuse" and wrong because they can't visualize how creeps/minions/towers can be treated as resources is just being, ahem, obtuse for the sake of it.
The deny thing is overblown, look at stats post game, most players will have between 0-5, that's not even enough to make a difference in the game.
It does matter to the mid lane though, and it is a way to control the lane if you are a carry.
This is what usually happens in dota too. That's why most pro offlaners don't even bother going to the lane anymore, jungle is safer.
It does matter to the mid lane though, and it is a way to control the lane if you are a carry.
This is what usually happens in dota too. That's why most pro offlaners don't even bother going to the lane anymore, jungle is safer.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Obligatory, Iron Talon GG skillful game, thx osfrog
(count me as someone that has complicated feelings towards that item positive and negative ones)denying is pretty much only unintuitive if you want it to be. when get the "rythm" it feels natural imo
dota 2 is pretty scalable(albeit not as scalable as league and league would look better at lower settings if i remember correctly)
and 16 gigs =/= 30 gigs
dota 2 is pretty scalable(albeit not as scalable as league and league would look better at lower settings if i remember correctly)
and 16 gigs =/= 30 gigs
Mechanized
Member
Runs on a toaster, isn't 30 gigs.
Yeah, this is a good reason. Tried to get some friends join and play Dota2, instead they went to LoL because most of their friends are there.
It's literally explained with "last hit your own creeps too, so the enemy can't".
There is much to complain about in Dota, but the deny mechanic really isn't it.
The Nexus of G
Banned
Same reason COD still outsells Battlefield. It's more "casual" friendly. The gameplay mechanics are easier to grasp for new comers.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Dota has an infinitely much higher skillcap.
If you don't cater to the lowest common denominator then the lowest common denominator will not play your game.
On the upside you end up with a much better game for everyone else
If you don't cater to the lowest common denominator then the lowest common denominator will not play your game.
On the upside you end up with a much better game for everyone else
DFO is pretty damn good, dawg.
Abilidebob
Member
Not saying it isn't m8, but I think you can agree that the "popularity equals quality" argument isn't the best one.
Not saying that the opposite holds true, though.
League players are also extremely stubborn.
I have a friend who is a league player who lives in a house with 2 DotA players, however constantly refuses to play DotA and spends a majority of his time on LoL even when his roommates ask him to be a 5th to complete their comp.
The two games are similar enough that he can pick it up and has proved that he can play a pretty mean Omni when he is forced to, however he still grumbles any time its brought up in a LAN and will always retreat to a LoL game shortly after the LAN match is over.
... I just don't get it...
Personally as a DotA player I tried league a few times and enjoyed it, but never to the extent that I have with DotA and only find myself playing maybe one match every 6 months if Riot is lucky...
I have a friend who is a league player who lives in a house with 2 DotA players, however constantly refuses to play DotA and spends a majority of his time on LoL even when his roommates ask him to be a 5th to complete their comp.
The two games are similar enough that he can pick it up and has proved that he can play a pretty mean Omni when he is forced to, however he still grumbles any time its brought up in a LAN and will always retreat to a LoL game shortly after the LAN match is over.
... I just don't get it...
Personally as a DotA player I tried league a few times and enjoyed it, but never to the extent that I have with DotA and only find myself playing maybe one match every 6 months if Riot is lucky...
...I'm the kind of person who looks at a character as a full package from a design and writing standpoint, yes. Kindred is not a demon or whatever, they're literally an incarnation of death in its' two inseparable forms, swift passing and savage end represented in a Mononoke-esque mythology. It's a very unique premise for a character and a striking design. This is represented through a mechanic where they mark enemy champions for death, and by succeeding in killing them, they're permanently empowered. I appreciate whatever lore Terrorblade or whoever else has, but as you already said, these characters are visually derivative of WC3 counterparts and therefore I don't see the point in trying to counter any of the characters I mentioned with others in DotA that pretty much no one without context (or even with) could look at and go 'well these two things are basically the same'.
Do those DOTA players want to drop DOTA and start playing LoL instead? Wouldn't they be just as stubborn if they won't? I don't get what your post is trying to prove.
BlastProcessing
Member
My thought on League vs Dota 2 is that I am happy that Dota 2 has a healthy player base and that's about it. I tried both and I personally found Dota 2 to be an easier and more rewarding game to learn. There was more to learn (one of the things I love about the game is that there are almost infinite things to learn) but I found it easier to actually learn them. A lot of that was initially down to the in item game guides and the replay functionality. But again, that's just me personally, obviously other people feel differently.
It's been clearly established that both League and Dota 2 can survive and thrive in the market so that's great for everyone!
It's been clearly established that both League and Dota 2 can survive and thrive in the market so that's great for everyone!
You should try to do what I did some time ago to form a team in Dota, I told some friends to play dota with me and in exchange my Dota team could form a lol team with him so we could play both games from time to time so he gave it a try for 2 weeks or so, after that he just decided that Dota was too complex for him because we keep on loosing and decided to quit but well at least he tried
I came into both games fairly late, tried them both, and so far I can't really find a single thing I really like with LoL over Dota, except maybe for cosmetics being more appealing.
Some personal pointers
*Dota has more interesting heroes, spells and items. For example there is a lot more usable items which can greatly alter the role and flexibility of your hero
*Everyone starts fresh, there is no talents or mastery system you only get by leveling up which gives seasoned players a disadvantage. No free wards or blinks depending on what trinkets you choose or town portals that can be used at any time to get back to base.
*LoL has no courier, tp's or secret shops wish diminishes the flow of the game.
*Dota has better interacting between the heroes, like taunts and dialogue which adds to the flair of the game. LoL has these too, but I hardly ever managed to trigger them. Dota 2 also follows Blizzards tradition of adding a ton of pop culture references into the speech.
*All heroes are available in Dota for free. Playing single draft is how I learned the mechanics of nearly all the heroes, which was impossible in LoL because it's highly restrictive with free rotations unless you're willing to pay. Despite LoL having a much greater selection of heroes, the hero variation during my games was almost always the same.
*Dota generally has much faster loading and a functioning pause system with no option of surrendering. It's so frustrating to finally get a good game, then having the other team conceding.
*Custom maps has a ton of fun games for free if you're up for something different.
*Hero guides. The game has a built in guide system with plenty of custom guides to choose from which will help you with item selection and teach you how to best use your abilities. An incredible tool if you want to learn new heroes.
*A true F2P game, which will never give you an edge beyond cosmetic changes.
Some personal pointers
*Dota has more interesting heroes, spells and items. For example there is a lot more usable items which can greatly alter the role and flexibility of your hero
*Everyone starts fresh, there is no talents or mastery system you only get by leveling up which gives seasoned players a disadvantage. No free wards or blinks depending on what trinkets you choose or town portals that can be used at any time to get back to base.
*LoL has no courier, tp's or secret shops wish diminishes the flow of the game.
*Dota has better interacting between the heroes, like taunts and dialogue which adds to the flair of the game. LoL has these too, but I hardly ever managed to trigger them. Dota 2 also follows Blizzards tradition of adding a ton of pop culture references into the speech.
*All heroes are available in Dota for free. Playing single draft is how I learned the mechanics of nearly all the heroes, which was impossible in LoL because it's highly restrictive with free rotations unless you're willing to pay. Despite LoL having a much greater selection of heroes, the hero variation during my games was almost always the same.
*Dota generally has much faster loading and a functioning pause system with no option of surrendering. It's so frustrating to finally get a good game, then having the other team conceding.
*Custom maps has a ton of fun games for free if you're up for something different.
*Hero guides. The game has a built in guide system with plenty of custom guides to choose from which will help you with item selection and teach you how to best use your abilities. An incredible tool if you want to learn new heroes.
*A true F2P game, which will never give you an edge beyond cosmetic changes.