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[2MF]

If it wasn't for piracy (when I was a kid), I would probably not be a gamer spending money on games today.

Used games are different. The money in the used market goes back to the pockets of gamers which then have more money to spend on new games. It's a cycle, not necessarily a bad thing. As for Gamestop's profits from used games, surely no one claims they aren't entitled to make profit?

 

[StopMakingSense]

Because people are allowed to trade in their used games towards the purchase of new games that they might not otherwise be able to afford. Or take the risk of buying a game at full price that they aren't sure they would enjoy when they can trade in and get it for 20$ instead.

Used trades drive new purchases.

Also, publisher's take such a huge cut of the initial new game purchase, that they are already essentially taking a cut of the used sale. Retailers essentially cannot make any money off of selling new games.

Publishers hurt developers so much more than used game sales.

 

[GK86]

Short version: Most used game sales are eventually used to buy new games, long version:

Whoever wrote long version deserves beer for life.

 

[danthefan]

Publishers only seem to look at used games from the standpoint of those buying them, while seemingly ignoring the people that traded in those games



http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/175305/

I'd be interested to know, when games get traded in how much is paid out in store credit vs cash. If it's mostly store credit then there's nothing else to spend it on but games.

 

[pixlexic]

It can. I dont know who says it doesn't?

- Game devs usually get residuals for game sales in their contracts also bonuses if sales reach a certain point.

- If a publisher loses money to piracy then the publisher doesn't have that money to back developers or fund projects.



But probably the worse thing hurting developers is the need for these large budgeted games. Instead of funding 3 AAA 5 million dollar games and then a few 2 million dollar riskier games now days all the money goes to 1 AAA game and the publisher will maybe lend you a dev kit for riskier projects.

 

[Baron Aloha]

Could someone explain to me why trading in my car or selling my house doesn't hurt car manufacturers and home builders? Why can people continuously get goods without paying the original builder over and over each time an item changes hands? How does that not hurt them?

Spoiler

I am so sick of seeing developers and publishers complaining about used games and people taking up for them.

 

[sn00zer]

No, if piracy weren't an option the pirates wouldn't purchase the game anyway.

Bullshit, steam sales and humble bundles definitely show people are willing to pay for games

 

[BigEvilTurtle]

numbers, we need more numbers.

My argument is relying entirely on conjecture so the validity is questionable. It's how I feel, though, deep down in my heart.

Bullshit, steam sales and humble bundles definitely show people are willing to pay for games

Um. What. Okay? How is that related to piracy? Also, I guarantee if a pirate buys a Humble Bundle, they're doing it at the lowest amount possible. That's how most pirates work*.

*conjecture, again

 

[Dave Meltzer]

Trade ins harm the long term lifespan of games. Eventually a first hand copy is going to get undercut by a second hand copy. That's the situation they're trying to change, as best I can tell. If you drive more people to first hand copies instead of second, the idea is more money goes in the industry.

The key issue that needs to be addressed is how you price first hand software, and if they're willing to drop prices on them in the absence of cheap second hand alternatives. If they do not have to compete with second hand, can they afford to lower prices on first hand software more frequently?

What needs to happen is games need to be affordable and their price needs to reflect demand. If prices can be dynamic and lower over time in order to create less of a situation where the majority of a game's sales come in the first month, the industry could be healthier. But if they end up with a situation where prices stagnate and software becomes unaffordable, there's obvious issues. Second hand software isn't the only way to make games affordable, it's up to platform holders, publishers and retailers to figure out ways to keep sales healthy.

 

[Sorc3r3r]

It's quite cute how you're comparing piracy and used games as if they were in any way the same thing.

This.
And also all the money i get by reselling my games are reinvested in the purchase of new games.

More, the less money i have the less games i buy, the big pubblishers expect me to buy their annual "new" game, with my (less) money and in the process kill the low budget games and gain even more market share.
Instead the first games i'm going to leave out are exactly the "new" annual games by them, i'll put my money on original games instead of buying tha same "new" game every year.
I will buy 10 Chaterine by Atlus and 1 "new" fifa by EA instead.

 

[Accoun]

Basically, the "friend's/other gamers opinion" may be worth something, especially when press is losing creditability. It's not that it doesn't hurt AT ALL, but we can't measure any losses.
If a pirate downloads a game and will say good things about it to his friends or on forums, will encourage let's say two of them to try it and they will buy the game, is the developer at loss? We can't say neither that he would buy it if there was no piracy (and he might buy it later anyway), nor that they would buy it if he didn't say anything.

I'm sure that there are studies showing that people who download more (statistically), are the ones that buy more of the media than those who don't (or sth. like that)...

 

[zulux21]

personally I would recommend giving this video from Neil Gaiman (about books but applies well enough to games)

Used games and piracy if you only look at the direct result of people paying your game without paying you then yes it's bad.

A lot of people discover a game series by borrowing from a friend which is not any different from pirating or buying a used copy. If they enjoy the game they tend to go out and buy the sequel right away. Beyond that with used copies and stores like gamestop, as others have said a lot of that money they give for used games goes right back into new games, so the developers see a number of full priced new sales that people on a lower income might not be able to afford without being able to get some of their money back.

That's not to say that used games/ piracy are good things, but they do bring plenty of good to the table (that scale of good tends to be higher for more niche games and smaller for bigger games like COD though, as extra word of mouth for COD won't help sales much, meanwhile extra word of mouth for an unknown game could spark a ton of extra sales.)

 

[Deleted member 17706]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=59545309&postcount=1361

Goddamn.

I think I just understood the meaning of the word 'ether' as it so often gets thrown around in these parts.

 

[RoboPlato]

Piracy hurts, no question, but people who buy used games can become fans of something they normally wouldn't have tried, adding to demand for a sequel, and can still spend money on DLC. Used games sales are also very helpful for niche games that have a small print run. There's also a lot of people who trade in games toward new ones. 70% of trade in money goes toward new games.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

No, if piracy weren't an option the pirates wouldn't purchase the game anyway.

Source?

 

[fertygo]

I don't get these apologist argument..

Its hurt them?

We live in trend where DLC reaching disgusting level, Day 1 DLC, Key content DLC, etc.. so much fucking greed.. We still must paid more for something that already made/in disc even already paid 60$ dollar.

Now apparently used game "hurt them"... Man I'm so angry now.. these fucker just want robbing us. That many thing is "okay" for them but this "not okay" for us to do? hahaha.. I really want to cry atm, seriously.

Shame I can't write well to express this, ugh..

 

[legacyzero]

Piracy represents in most cases lost sales. Used games sales do not.

Publishers would disagree with you. That's why we're in this mess right now.

 

[Red Liquorice]

Piracy and the second hand market are two completely different discussions.

If you buy a chair and then sell it, should you be allowed to sell it or should the company that made the chair stop you from doing so just so they can make money from reselling the same item?

 

[Alienous]

Piracy and used games hurt on the assumption that if a person couldn't get something pre-owned or free, they would pay for it full price.

That often isn't the case though.

 

[commish]

Source?

If you don't think this is true then... well... nevermind.

 

[dab0ne]

With Piracy you don't buy anything. (It hurts the Pubs/Devs because there is absolutely no money going back into the Pubs/Devs)

With Used games you buy a product that's already been bought and the creating company has seen the income from it. (It doesn't hurt the Pubs/Devs but it doesn't help the Pubs/Devs in terms of seeing income from a potential new sell)

 

[BigEvilTurtle]

Source?

My argument is relying entirely on conjecture so the validity is questionable. It's how I feel, though, deep down in my heart.

.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Piracy does hurt them. That I think everyone can agree on. It's theft plain and simple. You can call it what you want but it's theft. Now used games don't because the developer already got paid for the game. At the same time you're not copying or producing more copies of the game. You're simply exercising your right to resale a product you legally purchased. There are still only a limited amount of the games out there. They can control this by producing a smaller amount hence resulting in less units out there or they can make a product that people want to keep. They choose to flood the market with an insane amount for every game out there.

 

[pixlexic]

Piracy and used games hurt on the assumption that if a person couldn't get something pre-owned or free, they would pay for it full price.

That often isn't the case though.

How do you to what extend "that isn't the case" ? There is no way to really measure it.
That is a poor argument.

 

[scitek]

When people think about used games "hurting" devs, they're thinking about new games released within the past few months. After a certain point, though, the dev has moved on and is focused on their next game. That is the point at which I think the DRM will hurt the most.

I really like going into a game store late in the generation and finding awesome games that I didn't know about, or passed on for some reason, for cheap. If I wasn't able to do that, Resident Evil 4 might not be one of my favorite games of all-time, I may not have ever gotten to play Ninja Gaiden on the Xbox and become a fan of that series, and I might not have ever bothered with the Resistance games, or Ratchet and Clank, or Killzone... I mean I've been introduced to so many series in this way, it's crazy. And in turn, I've bought several of the newer titles in many franchises on day one. It just seems, to me, like there are a lot of negatives that aren't being thought about here.

 

[R_thanatos]

Short version: Most used game sales are eventually used to buy new games. Also, who seriously gives a shit if used games hurt devs? There are fundamental issues that are slowly leading the industry towards a crash and blocking used games is an artificial measure that just guarantees that a buch of suits will have a golden parachute ready for them when things innevitable fall apart. How many months EA waited before gutting Danger Close after the release of MoH? 4. How many after gutting Visceral after releasing Army of Bro 3? 1 month...before the game was out.

Long version:

That long version still get me every time it's spot-on.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

With Piracy you don't buy anything. (It hurts the Pubs/Devs because there is absolutely no money going back into the Pubs/Devs)

With Used games you buy a product that's already been bought and the creating company has seen the income from it. (It doesn't hurt the Pubs/Devs but it doesn't help the Pubs/Devs in terms of seeing income from a potential new sell)

When you trade in 3 old games for credit towards a new one, those three games, when sold, represent lost sales in the mind of publishers. That's the fundamental difference of opinion.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

How many times should a developer get paid when a game is sold?

 

[EvB]

If piracy didn't exist, would those people buy games?

 

[AOC83]

When people can continuously get games without paying devs, how does that not hurt devs?

When people can continuously get cars, books, Blu Rays, clothes, CDs and every single other good without paying the manufacturers how does that not hurt them?

How does the world even function without banning the sale of used stuff in general??

 

[dab0ne]

When you trade in 3 old games for credit towards a new one, those three games, when sold, represent lost sales in the mind of publishers. That's the fundamental difference of opinion.

Except the Publisher has already sold that copy to the retailer. That retailer then buys another copy to replace the one that was traded in for to supply demand, which results in another sell. The games that are sitting on the shelves have already been bought. If they don't leave the shelves then no more is bought. Trading in games helps move new games in that way.

Edit:

I understand you're saying that those are lost sales in the eyes of the publisher and not necessarily how you personally feel about it, I'm just saying why it's not really the case.

 

[marjo]

Used games hurt devs just like used cars hurt car manufacturers. Should we ban those as well?

 

[Alienous]

How do you to what extend "that isn't the case" ? There is no way to really measure it.
That is a poor argument.

I've heard several studies, you'll have to forgive me for not linking one.

There are an amount of gamers who would purchases a game they like if they couldn't just pirate it, or buy it pre-owned. There are a large amount of people who don't have a great enough interest in the games they pirate, or buy pre-owned, that if they didn't attain them that way, the simply wouldn't.

The idea that a pirated game is a lost sale doesn't really apply, a lot of the time. At least not currently. The music industry took a long time to realise this.

 

[MR BLACKMAGIK]

If I buy a car from Toyota, I give them money, they give me the car. If I then sell the car(which is now Used) to a friend, he gives me money, I give him the car. Toyota is not entitled to the money my friend gave me. I don't know why this is hard for devs to understand. Yes it doesn't HELP them, but that doesn't mean it HURTS them. Piracy is very different, a pirate isn't paying for anything at all. I don't pirate.

Also how does me buying lets say 5 games, selling them to Gamestop, and using the credit to buy 2 or 3 NEW games not HELP devs? If you kill used games, you kill the billions of dollars of trade-in credit that comes with it.

 

[commish]

When people can continuously get cars, books, Blu Rays, clothes, CDs and every single other good without paying the manufacturers how does that not hurt them?

How does the world even function without banning the sale of used stuff in general??

Used games yes, piracy that argument doesn't really hold up.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

Except the Publisher has already sold that copy to the retailer. That retailer then buys another copy to replace the one that was traded in for to supply demand, which results in another sell. The games that are sitting on the shelves have already been bought. If they don't leave the shelves then no more is bought. Trading in games helps move new games in that way.

Retailers don't continually buy new first hand stock when they have second hand stock available. If you removed the ability to sell second hand they'd have to purchase more first hand.

 

[commedieu]

Just curious, but has OP been white knighting the Xbone?

I really... I mean I discovered MGS & Gran turismo used. And those are the only reasons I buy playstation products.. piracy isn't a flip of a switch. Its not like "Well I could get it used, or modify my console to play used games -this afternoon-.

 

[EvB]

Except they've already sold that copy that's been traded in for to the retailer. That retailer then buys another copy to replace the one that was traded in for to supply demand, which results in another sell. The games that are sitting on the shelves have already been bought. If they don't leave the shelves then no more is bought. Trading in games helps move new games in that way.

It doesn't help sell new games when back catalog titles aren't bought from the publishers because there are already used copies in circulation.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

used games.

1. the cost of resale on goods should be accounted for in the original sale.
2. those purchases of used games would not occur without the used game markets, meaning that any additional DLC that's purchased on a used game sale is not a missed opportunity since the second hand market breathes new life into older releases.

Piracy.

Most people only steal when they feel that it's not worth or in their best interests to own legally. If they're unsure if they want to buy or own the game then they're likely to pirate it, this ultimately doesn't effect the bottom line for developers when these people would never buy the games to begin with.

 

[Gintoki313]

Piracy hurts them but if you think about it in a weird way it could help also. If someone plays the game (probably wasn't even planning on buying it if there pirating it anyways) and likes it, they may want to go buy the sequel because they really like it.

Used games I'm not sure about though but i do know they don't get the money for it so I guess there's that. I mostly buy games new to specifically support the devs though.

Piracy is bad either way you call it though. Doesn't matter if it helps its still stealing and the devs deserve the money for making it.

 

[dab0ne]

It doesn't help sell new games when back catalog titles aren't bought from the publishers because there are already used copies in circulation.

Back catalog games aren't bought from publishers because they are over priced. The pubs could help themselves and compete with the prices gamestop is charging for used games.

 

[Slair]

Releasing DRM free games doesn't seem to be hurting CDProjekt and gog.com. As the dev of a pretty successful franchise, which they are making incredibly easy to pirate, they seem to be doing great. Fuck, they're getting sales from some people on the principle of no DRM.

 

[commedieu]

Piracy hurts them but if you think about it in a weird way it could help also. If someone plays the game (probably wasn't even planning on buying it if there pirating it anyways) and likes it, they may want to go buy the sequel because they really like it.

Used games I'm not sure about though but i do know they don't get the money for it so I guess there's that. I mostly buy games new to specifically support the devs though.

Piracy is bad either way you call it though. Doesn't matter if it helps its still stealing and the devs deserve the money for making it.

Piracy is something we have to deal with in the digital world. Everyone here knows it will be cracked upon release. Which will leave the consumer jumping through these loops to play their product legally. As it always does. Things like Steam/SPotify make thigns so simple that its actually less effort to just pay a monthly fee, and watch/listen anywhere than downloading. Many industries are figuring this out... just not gaming.

 

[Kyzon]

It can hurt and help I imagine.

I know trying Madworld, and Monster Hunter Tri on my old Wii are what led me to buying both.

I'm now a huge Platinum* and Monster Hunter fan.

So in rare cases like that. It can create a life long customer.


Edit: Derp! Shouldn't demos do that though? lol

 

[Red Liquorice]

Long version:

Jesus. Hope this becomes a GAF legend, re-quoted for a very long time. *claps*

 

[dab0ne]

Retailers don't continually buy new first hand stock when they have second hand stock available. If you removed the ability to sell second hand they'd have to purchase more first hand.

Or they wouldn't sell nearly as many because people wouldn't be able to afford them without trading in their old games.

This discussion going in circles I think.

 

[Ranger X]

To think all pirates would buy their games if piracy wouldn't be possible is just as stupid as thinking every pirate does it because they can't afford games.

There's actually alot of both kind of pirates and making piracy harder would at least make some cheap ass and hypocrites pay something for their entertainment. Selfish people are the worse.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Could someone explain why piracy and used games do no hurt devs? When people can continuously get games without paying devs, how does that not hurt devs?

They do, the only question is how much, but they definitely do more harm than good. The elimination of the used game market with no cut going to developers and publishers is probably one of the best things that can happen to this industry right now. The argument that used games fuel new sales is flawed. It's true that every time you return a game to a retailer you gain some credit you can put toward purchases of new games (although not all of it ends up being spent that way since you can also purchase cheaper used games), but at the same time you create a new used game that someone will buy (otherwise the business model makes no sense for retailers), and the money they spent on something publishers and developers will never see a dime from would otherwise be put toward new game purchases. So it's impossible to say that people would be spending less money on new games if it were not for the used games market, there's no way to prove that whatsoever.

The market without used games of the sort we have at the moment (with no cut going back to publishers) would likely balance itself out, and it would be much more fair to people who actually bring all those games to market.

 

[Manmademan]

First, piracy and used games aren't remotely equivalent and don't belong in the same sentence. You have a legal right to sell what you own.

Are used cars piracy? used clothing? used books? Everything on ebay? see how silly this sounds?

second, having the ability to re-sell a game ADDS value to new product. I'm more willing to pay $60 for a game I know I can resell for 30-40 if I hate it, whether that be to gamestop or a private owner that doesn't want to pay full retail. I'm a LOT less likely to shell out $60 if I don't have that ability.

Third, used game sales via gamestop subsidize the purchase of new product. Devs will sell less new games if the ability to trade in vanished overnight.

The used market has co-existed with just about every new retail market on the planet for hundreds of years. Games aren't magically different. All this bitching and moaning is simply greed- publishers looking to squeeze retailers to make another couple percent on their profit margins.

 

[scitek]

Hasn't Steam been successful in Russia, which is typically a really heavily piracy-laden market, because of its pricing structure?