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[Go319]

Is the PS3 version up on the NA store yet?

 

[jman2050]

Huh? Don't the original Labyrinth Zone, Metropolis Zone and Ice Cap Zone all do that?

Yeah, that's a weird complaint. It was also one of the few parts of that level I liked both because of the nostalgia and because they did something decently interesting with the idea.

 

[Upsidedown Fuji]

It looks like after a quiet weekend, the bitching on this thread has made a strong resurgeance. Ah well.

Wednesday can't come soon enough. I already know I'm gonna kill this game in a matter of hours but I've been doing the same with the classics since I was in elementary school nearly 20 years ago.

I'm still looking forward to playing this and Colors.

 

[jman2050]

It looks like after a quiet weekend, the bitching on this thread has made a strong resurgeance. Ah well.

Well when a bunch of people finally play a shitty game like this, it's bound to happen.

 

[clav]

So yeah, pretty much every observation on how Sonic controls I made based on the videos to this point were 100% spot-on. Sonic is just an absolute chore to control in any meaningful fashion. He's incredibly slow, turning him around is so unbelievably tight and stilted, and it gets even worse in the air, what with the lack of air momentum and all.

The sad part about all this is that the game actually has some pretty awesome level design at points, especially past the first level. If anything, the dudes making this game seem to have a general idea on how to do non-Rush non-Advance level design. What makes this sad is that all the levels are so obviously designed with Sonic's control in mind, which means that it can't really allow for any sort of challenging and interesting platforming set pieces because any attempts to do so would just frustrate the player completely.

And seriously, why why why why why is rolling completely useless in this game? Why does rolling slow you down on slopes? I run up to a loop in Splash Hill, instinctively press down as I'm running up the slope to start rolling, and Sonic just slows to a dead stop before falling backwards away from the loop. Seriously, what the hell is this? Classic Sonic gameplay just doesn't exist if you take such an integral part of the game and make it completely superfluous.

On the plus side, the game really does look quite nice, if a little rough at points. The homing attack works as it should, although the fact that Sonic controls so terribly means that you basically have to use it as a crutch to do... well, do pretty much damn near anything. It's interesting because when playing Megamix, I can pick and choose the spots to use the homing attack and let my momentum carry me the rest of the way. In this game, if you're not using the homing attack, you're simply not playing the game properly. This is not a good thing.

So all in all, pretty much what I was expecting. On the bright side, I look forward to the inevitable hacks of this game that actually turn it into something playable, so I'll hold on to that hope for the time being.



That's a damn good summary to be perfectly honest.

I fucking called it. I noticed the ball movement slowing in video, and all those Sonic fanboys ignored it and said I didn't know what I was saying.

I mentioned it all before hand:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23287676&postcount=13026

Looks like pressing down on the dpad doesn't build momentum like the old sonic games. You can see how this veteran player wants to go faster, but it seems the physics still do not match the old sonic games. He goes to a standstill every time he rolls up into a ball. The spindash doesn't help him either.

This game is going to flop. Very lazy design and does not play like a successor at all. Someone should cook up the back to the future gif how Sonic 4 will screw up the previous series.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23287763&postcount=13030

Did you forget what I wrote? Pressing down doesn't build momentum on loops. It seems the game wants to encourage you to keep pressing forward all the time and never press down. Even the spin dash is detrimental to speed. All of these issues probably result from the broken engine that DIMPS created. They really didn't put much effort into this.

Therefore, it doesn't look fun. People will try the demo and see this. Plus the level design is just a bunch of springs and speedboosters. The mandatory use of homing attack detracts the original 2D feel of the series.

Little things will add up and definitely detract the whole value of the Sonic rebooting to 2D. You'll see.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23292671&postcount=13068

Just watch the video closely. You'll understand.




This video in question ok. Let's dissect it.

0:41-0:46 The guy tries to do a downward ball to increase his momentum. Normally this would work in the original Sonic series, but notice how high he goes up. If he simply just kept pushing forward, Sonic would have enough to hit the enemies at the top and proceed to do homing attack to get to the higher part of the stage. Here he fails since he pressed down.

0:53-0:55 The guy tries AGAIN to do the downward ball but is confused why Sonic slows down after hitting a spring and ramp.

0:57-0:59 Guy tries the spindash to catchup but notice how he starts slowing down even though the ramp is sloping downward. He then jumps because he thinks he can go faster that way. Normally in the old Sonic games that will push you faster, but here it does not.

1:01-1:04 Guy again tries the downward ball momentum. He clearly isn't going any faster doing it.

1:22 Downward ball doesn't work.

1:28 Hitting the spring and pressing down lost all his momentum.

1:38-1:40 Downward ball fail. Had he used the speed ramp and pressed forward instead of rolling to a ball, he could reach the higher platform.

2:02 He gets lost trying to see why the homing attack is inconsistent. He also doesn't see that he has to use it to proceed on the medium part of the level.

3:42 Momentum lost again. Downward ball doesn't work.

4:06 Because he didn't use homing attack, Sonic doesn't glide through those things. The game wants you to use it all the time.

4:08 Down ball is not working.

6:08 Perfect example why this homing attack will piss a lot of people off. If you spam it or hit it accidentally without the red retical, Sonic makes a short hop and can fall to your death. Since some stuff happens too fast or if you're new to the level, you just don't know.

7:12 You're forced to use homing attack to complete that section. Otherwise you die.

Let's not forget homing attack was created originally for the purpose how some 2D objects didn't translate well in the 3D environment. Putting it back is just stupid.

 

[Aaron Strife]

I came to see a lot of complaining about this game.

Honestly? I don't think it's that bad.

Sonic definitely feels too heavy, and it's not as good as the Genesis games, but it's a decent effort in its own right. Worthy of the title Sonic 4, probably not. It's functional and fun. I like it more than the Advance/Rush games at least. (maybe not Rush Adventure)

 

[Upsidedown Fuji]

Well when a bunch of people finally play a shitty game like this, it's bound to happen.

The same people here who were bitching before the game was released for similar reasons? It's like people bought it just to justify their hate and have a nice grudge fuck at the same time.

I am not surprised at all. I knew all this was gonna happen here anyway. I was just commenting on how quickly the tone of the posts changed over a few days.

 

[Dark Octave]

This game comes out wed?

I'm excited but not trying to get my hopes up too much.

I can't wait to see for myself if this game is what you guys say it is, or if it's yet another victim of hivemind hate.

 

[jman2050]

It's better than Sonic Advance 2, which isn't saying much. There's no way it's better than Sonic Advance or Sonic Advance 3 though.

Comparing it to the Rush games is an apples and oranges comparison so I won't go down that route.

 

[riceandbeans]

Huh? Don't the original Labyrinth Zone, Metropolis Zone and Ice Cap Zone all do that?

Really? Missed out on Sonic 1 and it's been a while since I've played the classics.

Well... I still didn't like it. Almost got me killed since time was running out and I had no clue what was going on. :lol It just didn't make sense to me if your constantly going down.

 

[7echnicolor]

This game comes out wed?

Yeah it comes out on Wednesday for XBL and Tuesday for PSN.

I fucking called it. I noticed the ball movement slowing in video, and all those Sonic fanboys ignored it and said I didn't know what I was saying.

I mentioned it all before hand:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23287676&postcount=13026



http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23287763&postcount=13030




http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23292671&postcount=13068

Ok, so.. do you want a pat on the back or something? :lol

 

[Upsidedown Fuji]

This game comes out wed?

I'm excited but not trying to get my hopes up too much.

I can't wait to see for myself if this game is what you guys say it is, or if it's yet another victim of hivemind hate.

Here's what will help, don't look too deeply into this game for meaning. It's not your savior of gaming and it's not exactly like the original Sonics. But if you are just playing it as a separate game from the original 3 game you may enjoy it a bit.

 

[clav]

Yeah it comes out on Wednesday for XBL and Tuesday for PSN.




Ok, so.. do you want a pat on the back or something? :lol

Cornered. It has shitty physics.

 

[RobbieNick]

And seriously, why why why why why is rolling completely useless in this game? Why does rolling slow you down on slopes? I run up to a loop in Splash Hill, instinctively press down as I'm running up the slope to start rolling, and Sonic just slows to a dead stop before falling backwards away from the loop. Seriously, what the hell is this? Classic Sonic gameplay just doesn't exist if you take such an integral part of the game and make it completely superfluous.

I'm trying to do a speed run and there's a point in Splash Hill where I need to roll down a hill and loop up high to reach some Bubble Badniks to keep my high path going. It won't work if I run down the hill. Only when I roll into a ball does it work. Yes. Rolling into a ball downhill makes you faster. You just have to keep holding right or left while doing it.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

This thread is so weird. Usually in an OT you have people desperately dealing with the game not being as good as hoped, scrutinizing bad reviews to prove they're actually good reviews. This thread you have people desperately dealing with the game not being as bad as hoped, scrutinizing good reviews to prove they're actually bad reviews.

Y'all are nuts.

 

[clav]

I'm trying to do a speed run and there's a point in Splash Hill where I need to roll down a hill and loop up high to reach some Bubble Badniks to keep my high path going. It won't work if I run down the hill. Only when I roll into a ball does it work. Yes. Rolling into a ball downhill makes you faster. You just have to keep holding right or left while doing it.

That's not how it works in Sonic 1-3&K, and that doesn't prove that rolling in a ball makes you go faster.

 

[jman2050]

I'm trying to do a speed run and there's a point in Splash Hill where I need to roll down a hill and loop up high to reach some Bubble Badniks to keep my high path going. It won't work if I run down the hill. Only when I roll into a ball does it work. Yes. Rolling into a ball downhill makes you faster. You just have to keep holding right or left while doing it.

oh gee well THAT's a relief *rolls eyes*

 

[Upsidedown Fuji]

This thread is so weird. Usually in an OT you have people desperately dealing with the game not being as good as hoped, scrutinizing bad reviews to prove they're actually good reviews. This thread you have people desperately dealing with the game not being as bad as hoped, scrutinizing good reviews to prove they're actually bad reviews.

Y'all are nuts.

We've collided with bizarro world.

 

[Catalix]

On the bright side, I look forward to the inevitable hacks of this game that actually turn it into something playable, so I'll hold on to that hope for the time being.

Now that you mention it, I'm definitely more excited about the fan remixes than I am about the officially released game. Work your magic, you talented freaks.

 

[Lan_97]

We've collided with bizarro world.

For a second, I thought I was reading from 4 pages back. This thread is awesome.

It's so weird.

It's the exact same feeling as for a huge new super anticipated game up in here. People are posting reviews, awaiting more reviews with anticipation, discussing every tidbit of the review for more info to see if it includes what you expected it to, and being extremely stimulated by the upcoming release.

Except everybody here is expecting it to suck instead of it being awesome.

It's a bizarro world that feels like home at the same time.

 

[jman2050]

Here's what will help, don't look too deeply into this game for meaning. It's not your savior of gaming and it's not exactly like the original Sonics. But if you are just playing it as a separate game from the original 3 game you may enjoy it a bit.

So basically it's just another platformer. Completely unremarkable and will be basically forgotten in two weeks by the world at large.

Why should that be considered a good thing?

 

[Upsidedown Fuji]

For a second, I thought I was reading from 4 pages back. This thread is awesome.

Hahahaha, I totally didn't intend that to happen. XD

 

[TheOGB]

This thread is so weird. Usually in an OT you have people desperately dealing with the game not being as good as hoped, scrutinizing bad reviews to prove they're actually good reviews. This thread you have people desperately dealing with the game not being as bad as hoped, scrutinizing good reviews to prove they're actually bad reviews.

Y'all are nuts.

That's a Sonic thread for ya

 

[Aaron Strife]

Also - has the music been changed? All of the splash hill themes and the boss themes sounded like they had better instrumentation.

 

[7echnicolor]

Hahahaha, I totally didn't intend that to happen. XD

 

[Anticitizen One]

Will Sonic 4 be full screen in ps3/360 or will it have bars on the sides??

 

[The Technomancer]

Hm, okay, just beat the game. Overall....meh. The physics are terrible, and they make the game annoying to play. However....the level design, although atrocious in the beginning actually turns halfway decent by the Casino Zone. And I'll say it straight up: Mad Gear Act 1 and 2 had the closest we've gotten to Genesis level Sonic in over a decade. Even Sonic Advance didn't hit quite as close as those two acts did. Now if only they could have tweaked the physics and made the rest of the game like them...

 

[Upsidedown Fuji]

Why should it be considered a bad thing?

Many normally rational posters here feel Sonic is a second class gaming citizen anyway. Sonic has been shat upon here for years and years and he finaly has a game that isn't filled with "shitty" friends, horribly glitchy 3D graphics, and Warehogs and people here still go apeshit over the game as if the whole thing is a leperous outcast.

SEGA tries to make an honest step in the right direction while "trolling" the net by naming the game Sonic 4 and people are so blinded with nerd rage they can't just enjoy a game for a game. They're games for goodness sake.

 

[7echnicolor]

Will Sonic 4 be full screen in ps3/360 or will it have bars on the sides??

It'll be full HD.

 

[RobbieNick]

This thread is so weird. Usually in an OT you have people desperately dealing with the game not being as good as hoped, scrutinizing bad reviews to prove they're actually good reviews. This thread you have people desperately dealing with the game not being as bad as hoped, scrutinizing good reviews to prove they're actually bad reviews.

Y'all are nuts.

Some people, once they have their prejudgments on something refuse to change their minds about it to the point of being in denial. "I hate this game, therefore it MUST be horrible to everyone else." I mean, we got one guy who bought the game just to trash it, (Thanks for giving Sega your money to help fund the sequel BTW) and another guy who says he's gonna download the demo just to totally mess with the physics to try find every tiny error he can. It's sick!!

 

[Upsidedown Fuji]

Will Sonic 4 be full screen in ps3/360 or will it have bars on the sides??

They are natively widescreen on the 360/PS3.

 

[Catalix]

The same people here who were bitching before the game was released for similar reasons? It's like people bought it just to justify their hate and have a nice grudge fuck at the same time.

I am not surprised at all. I knew all this was gonna happen here anyway. I was just commenting on how quickly the tone of the posts changed over a few days.

"Wait until you play the final product before judging it, guys!"

So much for that defense, I guess. Seems people will still get accused of unjust hate mongering, even after giving the actual game a chance.

 

[Lijik]

Some people, once they have their prejudgments on something refuse to change their minds about it to the point of being in denial. "I hate this game, therefore it MUST be horrible to everyone else."

I dont even severely hate the game or anything but :lol :lol :lol :lol

Some people played it and didnt like it and some of those people have gone in-depth as to why.
Get over it.

 

[Upsidedown Fuji]

"Wait until you play the final product before judging it, guys!"

So much for that defense, I guess. Seems people will still get accused of unjust hate mongering, even after giving the actual game a chance.

You discredit me just as easily as I seem to discredit others for their opinions. Fair enough. No hard feelings here. We all know each others standing at this point.

It's pretty obvious at this point this game is a love or hate it game. No matter who reviews the game or who says the game is good or crap it simply won't sway the outcome one way or another. It seems like a stalemate and its been like this since pretty much the first videos and images were leaked and scrutinized.

 

[RubyEclipse]

This thread is so weird. Usually in an OT you have people desperately dealing with the game not being as good as hoped, scrutinizing bad reviews to prove they're actually good reviews. This thread you have people desperately dealing with the game not being as bad as hoped, scrutinizing good reviews to prove they're actually bad reviews.

Y'all are nuts.

I came to check out the posts and offer some comments, but you pretty much just said everything I wanted to.

Hope you guys are enjoying it - we're getting a ton of great feedback so far. Yes, there are always things to improve upon, but I think the game is quite solid and probably one of the best Sonic games since those originals - as was mentioned long ago. : )

 

[jman2050]

SEGA tries to make an honest step in the right direction while "trolling" the net by naming the game Sonic 4 and people are so blinded with nerd rage they can't just enjoy a game for a game. They're games for goodness sake.

I consider it a failure on my part to settle for mediocrity and plainness in a video game, especially in a genre as incredibly refined as the platforming genre. The Genesis Sonics were, and still are frankly, a gold standard in 2D platforming, and it isn't like they exist in a vacuum, as there is a very active community of people willing to take that standard and apply their own ideas and effort into it. Why should I settle for something so plainly forgettable and uninteresting when there are better alternatives, be it a Mario game or a rom hack?

As far as I see it, if you're not going to do something original and daring in a competent fashion, you better be doing something unoriginal with perfect execution, lest you be thrown into the gigantic pile of me-too genre knockoffs to languish in obscurity for all time.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

"Wait until you play the final product before judging it, guys!"

So much for that defense, I guess. Seems people will still get accused of unjust hate mongering, even after giving the actual game a chance.

Don't be dishonest. Even if they played the game, there are a ton of Classic Hog fans that couldn't give the game a chance. And yes, the hate is getting pretty fucking disproportionate to the outcome at this point. SEGA have made a good 2D-only Sonic game for home consoles, with no extra characters, pulled back a bit on the speed thing, and people are acting like the game fucked their mother just because SEGA pulled a fast one with the name.

Disappointment, I get. Being mildly upset, I get. But obsessive grudge-fucking? No, I don't get it.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I came to check out the posts and offer some comments, but you pretty much just said everything I wanted to.

Hope you guys are enjoying it - we're getting a ton of great feedback so far. Yes, there are always things to improve upon, but I think the game is quite solid and probably one of the best Sonic games since those originals - as was mentioned long ago. : )

WHERE'S MY VALKYRIA CODE, YOU?

I consider it a failure on my part to settle for mediocrity and plainness in a video game, especially in a genre as incredibly refined as the platforming genre. The Genesis Sonics were, and still are frankly, a gold standard in 2D platforming, and it isn't like they exist in a vacuum, as there is a very active community of people willing to take that standard and apply their own ideas and effort into it. Why should I settle for something so plainly forgettable and uninteresting when there are better alternatives, be it a Mario game or a rom hack?

As far as I see it, if you're not going to do something original and daring in a competent fashion, you better be doing something unoriginal with perfect execution, lest you be thrown into the gigantic pile of me-too genre knockoffs to languish in obscurity for all time.

You, sir, are a self-professed Pokewhore. If you're going to dislike the game, at least come by it honestly instead of spewing this pile of bull.

 

[DeVeAn]

I came to check out the posts and offer some comments, but you pretty much just said everything I wanted to.

Hope you guys are enjoying it - we're getting a ton of great feedback so far. Yes, there are always things to improve upon, but I think the game is quite solid and probably one of the best Sonic games since those originals - as was mentioned long ago. : )

Dude, If I were you I would run from this thread LOL. I for one enjoyed the game more so the second time through. There are problems, I hope the developers can see that ans tweak it for episode 2. Cool surprise at the end too!

 

[The Technomancer]

Don't be dishonest. Even if they played the game, there are a ton of Classic Hog fans that couldn't give the game a chance. And yes, the hate is getting pretty fucking disproportionate to the outcome at this point. SEGA have made a good 2D-only Sonic game for home consoles, with no extra characters, pulled back a bit on the speed thing, and people are acting like the game fucked their mother just because SEGA pulled a fast one with the name.

Disappointment, I get. Being mildly upset, I get. But obsessive grudge-fucking? No, I don't get it.

I'm one of the biggest Sonic fans on this board. You'll even notice me a few pages back going "hey guys, the iPhone build wasn't the final one, give the console versions a chance"
Well I gave the console version a chance. There were a few really really good level designs, but the rest of them were mediocre and the physics are almost inarguabley bad. I don't even mind the homing attack, but it was implemented sloppily here: Sonic doesn't always lock on properly, and its annoying.

 

[jman2050]

You, sir, are a self-professed Pokewhore. If you're going to dislike the game, at least come by it honestly instead of spewing this pile of bull.

Pokemon is the perfect example of what I'm talking about really. It takes a fantastic design that works and refines it iteratively, rather than trying to "innovate" at every corner for the sake of change. Another good example would be the progression from Sonic 1 to Sonic 3.

 

[Upsidedown Fuji]

I consider it a failure on my part to settle for mediocrity and plainness in a video game, especially in a genre as incredibly refined as the platforming genre. The Genesis Sonics were, and still are frankly, a gold standard in 2D platforming, and it isn't like they exist in a vacuum, as there is a very active community of people willing to take that standard and apply their own ideas and effort into it. Why should I settle for something so plainly forgettable and uninteresting when there are better alternatives, be it a Mario game or a rom hack?

As far as I see it, if you're not going to do something original and daring in a competent fashion, you better be doing something unoriginal with perfect execution, lest you be thrown into the gigantic pile of me-too genre knockoffs to languish in obscurity for all time.

I can easily fall back on the moniker that this is SEGA and no matter what they do, they do it wrong according to this site. So why would they all of the sudden produce a spotless masterpiece on their first attempt at something in the same vein as the originals? The expectations for this company are incredible. I am not surprised the game is not without its obvious flaws. But an eyesore this game is not.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Pokemon is the perfect example of what I'm talking about really. It takes a fantastic design that works and refines it iteratively, rather than trying to "innovate" at every corner for the sake of change. Another good example would be the progression from Sonic 1 to Sonic 3.

Pokemon is a creatively bankrupt series that has a lot of obvious glaring flaws that could have and should have been improved four games ago, instead settling for churning out the same thing, over and over again. You can't preach for excellence, perfection, or originality while simultaneously being a Pokemon fan. Well, you can, but it makes you a hypocrite.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Will Sonic 4 be full screen in ps3/360 or will it have bars on the sides??

They all should be in widescreen.

On a 4:3 TV they'll be pan & scanned though which is stupid.

 

[DeVeAn]

Pokemon is the perfect example of what I'm talking about really. It takes a fantastic design that works and refines it iteratively, rather than trying to "innovate" at every corner for the sake of change. Another good example would be the progression from Sonic 1 to Sonic 3.

LOL, I love pokemon and have all the versions, but the game hasn't changed much from the original game. I mean the pokemon barely have animation to them now.

 

[Sciz]

Hope you guys are enjoying it - we're getting a ton of great feedback so far. Yes, there are always things to improve upon, but I think the game is quite solid and probably one of the best Sonic games since those originals - as was mentioned long ago. : )

The other Sonic title you folk released a trailer for today continues to look like the better game of the two, frankly.

 

[Anticitizen One]

It'll be full HD.

YESSS

Game of the Forever CONFIRMED!

I hate that black bar shit

 

[RagnarokX]

Almost all Sonic games have bottomless pits though. Heck, even Emerald Hill Zone does. And Splash Hill Act 3. I'm a pit magnet. :lol

Sonic 2 and 3 had very few bottomless pits.

Sonic 2:
Emerald Hill Zone Act2: 2 very small pits.
Chemical Plant Zone Act 2: bottomless pit under the poison water. Very easy to avoid.
Hilltop Zone Act 1: 1 At the very start.
Metropolis Zone Act 3: At the very end when you ride the platform to the boss.
Wing Fortress Zone: It's a sky level. Remarkably not that many places where you can fall off easily. That part with the timed platforms was annoying as a kid.

Sonic 3 & Knuckles:
Ice Cap Zone Act 2: falling in the water on the lowest route.
Flying Battery Zone: another sky level, still few places with bottomless pits.
Sandopolis Zone: if you stand in quicksand and let yourself slowly sink to the bottom of the screen Sometimes leads to secrets though.
Lava Reef Zone Act 2: near the end and in the boss fight.
Death Egg Zone Act 2: Space level with a few pits.

 

[jman2050]

I can easily fall back on the moniker that this is SEGA and no matter what they do, they do it wrong according to this site. So why would they all of the sudden produce a spotless masterpiece on their first attempt at something in the same vein as the originals? The expectations for this company are incredible. I am not surprised the game is not without its obvious flaws. But an eyesore this game is not.

Let me be transparent for a moment: This game is not an offense to mankind (that would be 06), nor is it completely the wrong direction for the franchise to take (that would be Unleashed). It is, however, not very good. And it's not very good because the entire foundation of the gameplay, the control, is very bad. I already said that some parts of the level design indicate that the dev team does have an idea on what classic Sonic gameplay is about, but that does not save it. All those ancillary elements, no matter how good, fall apart if the control is bad. This is not a new phenomenon. Can the next episode be a major improvement? Sure, and I'd like to see if they can do it. But I do not reward effort, I reward results, and I'm not going to turn my favor until the devs show that their product is not just another platformer. When that happens, I will change my tune, but not a minute before.

 

[RobbieNick]

Pokemon is the perfect example of what I'm talking about really. It takes a fantastic design that works and refines it iteratively, rather than trying to "innovate" at every corner for the sake of change. Another good example would be the progression from Sonic 1 to Sonic 3.

And I would argue that the Pokemon series has been the same fucking game over and over again with new Pokemon. There's change and innovation and then there's doing NOTHING new.