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SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 4 or AGAINST |OT| of Huelen in Green-Eyed Heaven

M

McNum

Member
I still like the game. Although I think they should have called it "New Sonic the Hedgehog" instead of Sonic 4. It feels a lot more like a reboot/re-imagining than a sequel.

In fact, I'd say that the biggest weakness of Sonic 4 is when it tries to be classic Sonic, but fails. When it stops trying, it's a pretty good game, but the parts that are lifted from the originals seem off and to those of us who've played the old ones it becomes a little jarring. I'd single out the Special Stages as something that probably should have been something completely new rather than a badly done rip from Sonic 1. But when the game stands on its own feet, it's good. The physics are nice and playable, even if they take a bit of getting used to, but a lot of the maneuvers I used in Sonic 3 still work, even if the input and timing is slightly off. I just have to play as if I have a Fire Shield and it all falls into place. I used to Fire Dash all over the place when I had that, especially in boss fights.

After completing it and getting Super Sonic, which by the way is pretty nice to finally have playable in normal levels again, I've grown used to it. It's not a badly designed game, but they shouldn't have called it "4". It's a new take on classic Sonic, but doesn't really feel like a direct sequel to Sonic and Knuckles. I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with Episode 2 and
Metal Sonic
. I'd be a little disappointed if there isn't a remake of a certain Sonic CD stage there.
 
B

BlazeHedgehog

Member
Roto13 said:
Except most Mario games have different physics.
Click to expand...

I don't think that changes the fact that Mario always controls well, however, likely because there are a few underlying fundamental principals that are part of how Mario controls in just about every game he's been in.

There are things about the physics in Sonic 4 (and by relation, Sonic Rush) that are completely contrary to those fundamentals and do not make the game easier or more intuitive to play. Sonic Rush gets away with it because it doesn't have many precision platforming segments, and the game as a whole is more about maintaining your tension gauge and keeping your speed up.

Sonic 4, on the other hand, wants to have level design more like it's Genesis ancestry, and that's where things get hairy.
 
D

Diablohead

Member
When playing labyrinth act 2 today one of my deaths was rather silly, I was in the automatic mine cart which stops and launches you out into another and then that one does the same but sonic will land and run, well the first time I did this part I naturally without thinking let go of forward since the cart was self controlled, sonic flew out and about 1 foot away from saftey just stopped all momentium and dropped into a bottomless pit:lol I knew what the mistake was but I had to sink my head and sigh just because of how stupid that part was.

Another time I hit a spring in mad gear or somewhere and again didn't hold down right, sonic stops with like his nose rubbing the next spring and just drops, I hate the dimps engine so much.
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Sega1991 said:
I don't think that changes the fact that Mario always controls well, however, likely because there are a few underlying fundamental principals that are part of how Mario controls in just about every game he's been in.

There are things about the physics in Sonic 4 (and by relation, Sonic Rush) that are completely contrary to those fundamentals and do not make the game easier or more intuitive to play. Sonic Rush gets away with it because it doesn't have many precision platforming segments, and the game as a whole is more about maintaining your tension gauge and keeping your speed up.

Sonic 4, on the other hand, wants to have level design more like it's Genesis ancestry, and that's where things get hairy.
Click to expand...
How does it get hairy, though? I've had no problems mastering the stages at all. In fact, Sonic handles a bit too well and makes segments easier than they would have been with classic Sonic physics.
 
N

NonexistentK

Member
Segata Sanshiro said:
So it's still really fucking good, then?
Click to expand...
well i found NSMB DS is a bit soulless but it was still ok and I guess i can say the same thing for Sonic 4. The graphics are excellent, the audio is serviceable (thank god for the old-school fx). Level layouts are much better than i expected yet there are tons & tons of problematic spots due to schizo design. The controls are flawed yet not broken as i first thought, certain boss fights are downright terrible but i was never a fan of Sonic boss fights anyway. Despite all its flaws, it definitely still has some Sonic magic in it. Somewhere between a 7 and a 7.9 seems right.
 
P

pmj

Member
Segata Sanshiro said:
So it's still really fucking good, then?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure why you insist on Sonic 4 having to be good because some people happen to like it. Do you also enter political debates to argue with one side that they have to "admit" that the other side's viewpoints are perfectly valid too, for no other reason than that they believe in them?

We'll all call it as we see it and I think Sonic 4 is bad. Feel free to disagree, but I think you're wrong.
 
B

BlazeHedgehog

Member
dark10x said:
How does it get hairy, though? I've had no problems mastering the stages at all. In fact, Sonic handles a bit too well and makes segments easier than they would have been with classic Sonic physics.
Click to expand...

Primarily because the game fakes you out with Sonic's momentum. There are springs and other launchers that will take you a set amount of distance before they give control back to the player, and when they do, if you aren't holding the direction of the launch, you stop dead and fall to your doom.

Which, as has been repeatedly stated, more or less goes against the rules in which most intelligently-designed platformers are created under. It just does not make logical sense for the character to go from full-tilt to zero speed like that. Like somebody said earlier in the thread, when you throw a baseball, does it stop dead in the air and fall to the ground the moment it leaves your hands? No.

Yes, I suppose you could "get used to it" by memorizing where that sort of thing is a prevalent problem, but should it really be the sort of thing you have to "get used to"? I occasionally get comments on my "Sonic 2006 sucks" video from people who tell me that the game isn't so bad once you "get used to it". Obviously that's an extreme example, but in Sonic 4's case, it's a simple matter of "if it isn't broke, don't fix it".

Look at it this way: It's the kind of thing the game itself never communicates to the player. Ever. And guaranteed, if you don't know that's what is happening under the hood, it's going to catch a new player off guard and they'll be left scratching their head and wondering why Sonic just died. That shouldn't happen, and it's the kind of obvious little design decision that Sonic 4 flubs over and over and over again.
 
T

The Bookerman

Member
Well I'm in Mad Gear Zone and it's definetly my favorite level.... Reminds me of some of the Sonic CD levels. It's definetly different. and It's a good game(Not GOTY material, but the best sonic game we've had in a couple of years).

This argument reminds me a bit of what's going on with Castlevania Lords of Shadow. Some people Dismiss the game solely cause it doesn't feel like it's predecessors. Change is good sometimes.
 
R

Roto13

Member
Sega1991 said:
Which, as has been repeatedly stated, more or less goes against the rules in which most intelligently-designed platformers are created under. It just does not make logical sense for the character to go from full-tilt to zero speed like that. Like somebody said earlier in the thread, when you throw a baseball, does it stop dead in the air and fall to the ground the moment it leaves your hands? No.
Click to expand...
You can't alter the course of a baseball after you throw it, either, but hey, video games.
es, I suppose you could "get used to it" by memorizing where that sort of thing is a prevalent problem, but should it really be the sort of thing you have to "get used to"?
Click to expand...
What's to memorize? Hold the direction you want to go, even when you're in the air. That's all you need to know to adapt. I don't know why you'd stop holding it anyway. In every Sonic game, I hold the direction I want to go after bouncing off a bouncer because that way I'm already running as soon as I hit the ground.
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
I don't think that changes the fact that Mario always controls well, however, likely because there are a few underlying fundamental principals that are part of how Mario controls in just about every game he's been in.

There are things about the physics in Sonic 4 (and by relation, Sonic Rush) that are completely contrary to those fundamentals and do not make the game easier or more intuitive to play. Sonic Rush gets away with it because it doesn't have many precision platforming segments, and the game as a whole is more about maintaining your tension gauge and keeping your speed up.

Sonic 4, on the other hand, wants to have level design more like it's Genesis ancestry, and that's where things get hairy.
Click to expand...

Sega1991 said:
Primarily because the game fakes you out with Sonic's momentum. There are springs and other launchers that will take you a set amount of distance before they give control back to the player, and when they do, if you aren't holding the direction of the launch, you stop dead and fall to your doom.

Which, as has been repeatedly stated, more or less goes against the rules in which most intelligently-designed platformers are created under. It just does not make logical sense for the character to go from full-tilt to zero speed like that. Like somebody said earlier in the thread, when you throw a baseball, does it stop dead in the air and fall to the ground the moment it leaves your hands? No.

Yes, I suppose you could "get used to it" by memorizing where that sort of thing is a prevalent problem, but should it really be the sort of thing you have to "get used to"? I occasionally get comments on my "Sonic 2006 sucks" video from people who tell me that the game isn't so bad once you "get used to it". Obviously that's an extreme example, but in Sonic 4's case, it's a simple matter of "if it isn't broke, don't fix it".

Look at it this way: It's the kind of thing the game itself never communicates to the player. Ever. And guaranteed, if you don't know that's what is happening under the hood, it's going to catch a new player off guard and they'll be left scratching their head and wondering why Sonic just died. That shouldn't happen, and it's the kind of obvious little design decision that Sonic 4 flubs over and over and over again.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna copy and paste this to a notepad and use this every time someone tries to defend Sonic 4's physics. Couldn't have said it better myself :lol
 
goldenpp72

goldenpp72

Member
Mama Robotnik said:
Hmmm.



Its a shame that something as fundemental as broken physics in a god damn platform game is considered such a minor niggle.
Click to expand...

Yes the physics are so horribly broken they ruined the whole game, I dunno how I got all 200 points out of it within 2 runs, but I still found it broken and it sucks! OMG RAGE
 
Z

Zen

Banned
Mama Robotnik said:
Its a shame that something as fundemental as broken physics in a god damn platform game is considered such a minor niggle.
Click to expand...


I think it might be time to admit that you're a little too invested in this. :lol

There's nothing broken about the Physics in Sonic 4, except in the sense that Sonic doesn't obey the laws of physics like he did in Sonic 16 bit. The physics system works as intended. There area few things that wouldn't make sense in the real world, but that's hardly unique to Sonic 4.

As for Sega1991's point about the springs, it is an issue. It's something you only have to learn once (to hold down the on the Dpad). It would be nice if something like that was communicated to the player, but it's simply reversing the rule, as it were. It's not like the level design contradicts itself in 'hold forward when using the springs'.
 
N

[Nintex]

Member
Zen said:
I think it might be time to admit that you're a little too invested in this. :lol

There's nothing broken about the Physics in Sonic 4, except in the sense that Sonic doesn't obey the laws of physics like he did in Sonic 16 bit. The physics system works as intended. There area few things that wouldn't make sense in the real world, but that's hardly unique to Sonic 4.
Click to expand...
Physics remind me of the 3D Sonic's actually, most recent example being Sonic Unleashed. The same slow jump and the homing attack is implemented the same way as well. Sonic Colours seems to make use of the same type of physics. There's obviously room for improvement but they feel a bit better than Sonic Rush and SEGA seems to be pretty consistent in implementing these in current Sonic games.

As far as the brokeness of the physics go... the floaty jump in LBP bothered me much more and there's not even a frame of reference there.
 
J

jman2050

Member
[Nintex] said:
As far as the brokeness of the physics go... the floaty jump in LBP bothered me much more and there's not even a frame of reference there.
Click to expand...

I agree with this, which is why I don't consider LBP a very good platformer either.
 
D

Diablohead

Member
Roto13 said:
You can't alter the course of a baseball after you throw it, either, but hey, video games.

What's to memorize? Hold the direction you want to go, even when you're in the air. That's all you need to know to adapt. I don't know why you'd stop holding it anyway. In every Sonic game, I hold the direction I want to go after bouncing off a bouncer because that way I'm already running as soon as I hit the ground.
Click to expand...
There's lots of places in sonic 2 where some springs or boosters allow you to get into hidden areas by adjusting sonic's air velocity, for example there is a spot in emerald hill zone act 2 where if you use this slightly of of the way red diagonal spring, if you hold your finger down you will clear where you can land and if you don't hold down the direction you will fall short, hold down the direction for about a second and let go you will land on a loop with a shield, and from that (another spring) an out of the way area with lots of rings and an extra life right above the boss area.

First act of chemical plant at the very first booster, hit it but only run for about half a second, let go of the direction pad and sonic will leave the upcoming quarter ramp with just enough speed to get into a ring/stars/life monitor area, but you can also get there with a spin dash if you feel like standing still to use one.

This kind of stuff is watered down so much in sonic 4 it would be hard to have areas like that especially with the dimps physics.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Mama Robotnik said:
Its a shame that something as fundemental as broken physics in a god damn platform game is considered such a minor niggle.
Click to expand...

I do remember scores of people and reviewers giving Little Big Planet a pass in this area as well.

That said, I guess I'm not one that cares that much about realistic physics in the Sonic series. It's a game about a talking blue hedgehog who runs incredibly fast. It's not really pushing the "realism" button.
 
R

Roto13

Member
Mama Robotnik said:
Thanks for the video. And Jesus Christ at its content.

I know this is disputed by those that liked the game, but I can't think of a better word to describe the above evidenced nonsense-physics than "broken".
Click to expand...
Work on your vocabulary, then. They'd only be broken if they made the game unnecessarily difficult or easy, which they don't. They don't turn the game into an unplayable mess. They're not even inconsistent.
 
J

jman2050

Member
Mama Robotnik said:
Its a shame that something as fundemental as broken physics in a god damn platform game is considered such a minor niggle.
Click to expand...

You realize I've been saying this since the game released, right?
 
P

PeakPointMatrix

Member
[Nintex] said:
As far as the brokeness of the physics go... the floaty jump in LBP bothered me much more and there's not even a frame of reference there.
Click to expand...
Wasn't the complaint in LBP that the controls were too physics based? :lol
 
J

jman2050

Member
SwiftSketcher said:
Wasn't the complaint in LBP that the controls were too physics based? :lol
Click to expand...

The biggest problems with LBP were that it was extremely basic, even moreso than something like Mario, its controls were TOO slippery (basically the opposite extreme of this game) and, most of all, the very very ill-conceived three-plane system.
 
N

NonexistentK

Member
Zen said:
There's nothing broken about the Physics in Sonic 4, except in the sense that Sonic doesn't obey the laws of physics like he did in Sonic 16 bit. The physics system works as intended. There area few things that wouldn't make sense in the real world, but that's hardly unique to Sonic 4.
Click to expand...
the problem is Sonic 4 is trying to keep much of the genesis era level design while adhering primarily to Sonic Rush mechanics.
 
.la1n

.la1n

Member
Plinko said:
I do remember scores of people and reviewers giving Little Big Planet a pass in this area as well.

That said, I guess I'm not one that cares that much about realistic physics in the Sonic series. It's a game about a talking blue hedgehog who runs incredibly fast. It's not really pushing the "realism" button.
Click to expand...

Lmao. True true. I will always love the old genesis Sonic games but Sonic 4 is a step in the right direction atleast, Sega can only go up from here right guys, right guys? Guys...


Next to Sonic my favorite franchise from those days was probably Rocket Knight and next to it's remake Sonic 4 looks godly.
 
I

I NEED SCISSORS

Banned
I have barely played any Sonic games so the trial was really fun for me. Ignorance is bliss I guess - i'm not really picking up on any of the physics complaints that others have suggested. All I want to know is whether the game is worth 1200 points (and what is the likelihood of a sort of discounted 'complete' bundle down the road).
 
Z

Zen

Banned
NonexistentK said:
the problem is Sonic 4 is trying to keep much of the genesis era level design while adhering primarily to Sonic Rush mechanics.
Click to expand...

Could you cite some specific examples?
 
R

Roto13

Member
I NEED SCISSORS said:
I have barely played any Sonic games so the trial was really fun for me. Ignorance is bliss I guess - i'm not really picking up on any of the physics complaints that others have suggested. All I want to know is whether the game is worth 1200 points (and what is the likelihood of a sort of discounted 'complete' bundle down the road).
Click to expand...
If you think you'll want to play it a few times, it's probably worth the price. Play the demo a couple more times and see if you're still having fun. :p You can pretty much bet on a discounted bundle at some point, but since they haven't even started Episode 2 yet, that probably won't be for a while.
 
D

Diablohead

Member
I NEED SCISSORS said:
I have barely played any Sonic games so the trial was really fun for me. Ignorance is bliss I guess - i'm not really picking up on any of the physics complaints that others have suggested. All I want to know is whether the game is worth 1200 points (and what is the likelihood of a sort of discounted 'complete' bundle down the road).
Click to expand...
If more episodes are being made and sega's history of collection bundles, you can count on them doing a complete collection at the end.

I was able to beat my friends 360 copy in easily 2 hours, if not less from start to end, you can replay acts as time attacks and go for emeralds. As much as I replay the classic games sonic 4 to me doesn't carry much.
 
Nabs

Nabs

Member
I NEED SCISSORS said:
I have barely played any Sonic games so the trial was really fun for me. Ignorance is bliss I guess - i'm not really picking up on any of the physics complaints that others have suggested. All I want to know is whether the game is worth 1200 points (and what is the likelihood of a sort of discounted 'complete' bundle down the road).
Click to expand...
the demo level is probably my favorite, since it's probably the most fun to speed run. the rest of the game is not worth 15 to me personally, but may be for you. check some videos on youtube to see if the later stages look appealing.
 
I

I NEED SCISSORS

Banned
Diablohead said:
If more episodes are being made and sega's history of collection bundles, you can count on them doing a complete collection at the end.

I was able to beat my friends 360 copy in easily 2 hours, if not less from start to end, you can replay acts as time attacks and go for emeralds. As much as I replay the classic games sonic 4 to me doesn't carry much.
Click to expand...

If it's only 2 hours then it's definitely a pass from me. I don't tend to replay games enough to make even that worth it.

I might check out retro Sonic The Hedgehog instead, but i'm looking to see what version I should get (my "definitive versions of old games" thread is not off to a good start :|)
 
Z

Zen

Banned
I NEED SCISSORS said:
If it's only 2 hours then it's definitely a pass from me. I don't tend to replay games enough to make even that worth it.

I might check out retro Sonic The Hedgehog instead, but i'm looking to see what version I should get (my "definitive versions of old games" thread is not off to a good start :|)
Click to expand...

Yeah you might be better off to wait for a bundle or sale. I tend to replay games a ton, so the short length hasn't been too much of a problem for me (I like finding all the alternate paths and such), but it lives up to its name of episode I in terms of length.
 
R

RagnarokX

Member
jman2050 said:
The biggest problems with LBP were that it was extremely basic, even moreso than something like Mario, its controls were TOO slippery (basically the opposite extreme of this game) and, most of all, the very very ill-conceived three-plane system.
Click to expand...
I'd say what hurts LBP most was making jumping analog. Jump height is based on how hard you mash the button instead of how long you hold it, which has various results.
 
A

_Alkaline_

Member
I NEED SCISSORS said:
I have barely played any Sonic games so the trial was really fun for me. Ignorance is bliss I guess - i'm not really picking up on any of the physics complaints that others have suggested. All I want to know is whether the game is worth 1200 points (and what is the likelihood of a sort of discounted 'complete' bundle down the road).
Click to expand...

With 1200 points you could pick up Sonic 1, Sonic 2 and Sonic 3. Even one of those by itself is 10x better than Sonic 4.

Hell, with 20 bucks you could get the Ultimate Genesis Collection and get the them all on the one disc plus Knuckles plus a bunch of other great Genesis games.
 
D

Dreamwriter

Member
pmj said:
I'm not sure why you insist on Sonic 4 having to be good because some people happen to like it. Do you also enter political debates to argue with one side that they have to "admit" that the other side's viewpoints are perfectly valid too, for no other reason than that they believe in them?

We'll all call it as we see it and I think Sonic 4 is bad. Feel free to disagree, but I think you're wrong.
Click to expand...
Reviewers think it's a good game, it's really just a vocal minority who hate it, people who somehow think it should have been a rehash of Sonic 2 or 3 instead of a full sequel with new physics and moves (like every other Sonic sequel had).

What I don't get is all the hate for losing momentum when you let go of the direction you are jumping in - tons of platformers do that, it helps you control your jumps so you go exactly where you want rather than overshooting them. Really, for me it made the game a bit too easy.
 
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