I think it's fair to say that there's division over the game, but the game seems to be getting a much better reception from fans and critics than Unleashed got. On Neogaf we seem to have a 60/40 or 50/50 split. The game is currently sitting at 4.66/5 on PSN out of 1000+ user ratings and 4.02/5 for the demo with something like 2500 user ratings.
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SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 4 or AGAINST |OT| of Huelen in Green-Eyed Heaven
- Thread starter WillyFive
- Start date
The classic Sonic games all had the same physics, Sonic just had a few moves added to his arsenal along the line. Sonic rolling down a hill when he's a ball is physics. The bubble shield is not. I hope you can see the difference, and how wishing for the same physics in a new game doesn't make that new game a rehash.Dreamwriter said:
They could have designed 10 brand spanking new levels, filled them to the brim with new and cool stuff, given us a bunch more power ups and made some kick ass music to go along with it. But instead they made Sonic 4, which is more of a rehash than anyone could have dreamed of.
As for momentum, read the thread. Go to a random page and scroll down and it shouldn't take you long to find the answer to your question.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I can say that if the 16-bit Sonic games didn't exist, I would think Sonic 4 was strange and awkward to play with its bizarre anti-physics that make no sense. Honestly, a lot of reviewers these days have no standards and I would suspect that some are giving the game a pass merely because it looks, at a quick glance, like the closest thing to classic Sonic out there.
I showed the trial to a friend who hasn't touched a Sonic game in forever, including the Genesis games; he's a Mario guy. His first reaction was to raise his eyebrow and remark that it seems the game is very lazily made and that there are, to quote "no real physics that make it seem like a cohesive world. Sonic just sort of slides around. It looks like a cheaply made flash game by some beginners with better than average art."
I showed the trial to a friend who hasn't touched a Sonic game in forever, including the Genesis games; he's a Mario guy. His first reaction was to raise his eyebrow and remark that it seems the game is very lazily made and that there are, to quote "no real physics that make it seem like a cohesive world. Sonic just sort of slides around. It looks like a cheaply made flash game by some beginners with better than average art."
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Actually, that post was about New Super Mario Bros. DS being really fucking good. Reading comprehension, how the fuck does it work?pmj said:
And yes, I am quite assertive about people understanding that their viewpoint is just their viewpoint and that they should respect and understand viewpoints different from their own. That's because I'm an adult. Maybe you'll get there someday, maybe you won't. A lot of people never emotionally develop past an adolescent way of understanding the world.
I AM JOHN!
Banned
Honestly, I didn't really like the first NSMB. I freaked out over it for a little under a week, but after I did everything in it, I've never gone back to it since and I couldn't tell you a single level in the entire game. Like NonexistentK said, the entire thing felt incredibly soulless.Segata Sanshiro said:
Segata Sanshiro
Member
It's definitely not up to the standards of the series prior and after, but I think if Sonic 4 were as good as New Super Mario Bros. DS, people would be a lot happier.I AM JOHN! said:
You've been harping on about this, with very similar posts, for a while now. I could have quoted you a page or two back, but the response would have been the same.Segata Sanshiro said:
I respect people's right to have the viewpoints they have. That doesn't mean I'm going to respect the viewpoint itself. If everyone respected every viewpoint, there would never be any debate on anything ever.
If there's a lack of respect towards person and not argument going on in this thread, maybe you should point that out instead. You could start with your own posts.
I AM JOHN!
Banned
That's fair. NSMB had the feel of a Mario game, it just didn't have the creativity or the level design to back it up.Segata Sanshiro said:
I'd also say that the levels falter a bit because of the way they deal with level gimmicks. Every single act has a gimmick, and it only shows up in that one act. For example:
Splash Hill 1: Regular Sonic
Splash Hill 2: Awkward Vine Swinging
Splash Hill 3: Sliding rails
Casino Street 1: Pinball
Casino Street 2: Cards, Cards, Cards
Casino Street 3: Canons Canons Canons
Lost Labyrinth 1: Ball Rollin' (This looks really awful, btw)
Lost Labyrinth 2: Fire and Dynamite (Was I the only one who got caught on the "puzzle" section of this for a long time?
Lost Labyrinth 3: The only level containing water
Mad Gear 1: Steam, Steam, Steam
Mad Gear 2: Cog Fest (speeding up for the sideways cogs is EXCRUCIATING)
Mad Gear 3: Leaning platforms (shockingly awful) and death wall.
By the time you're near the end of the Act you're getting sick of it since you're seeing it so much, and it makes the levels seem very disjointed, like they're not a part of the same level at all. Would have been so much more coherent if these elements were all through each level of an act, but ramped up in difficulty.
And poor fucking Bubbles, how many of those useless Robots did Eggman make? I'd love for someone to make a Badniks to Bubbles ratio chart for each level :lol
Splash Hill 1: Regular Sonic
Splash Hill 2: Awkward Vine Swinging
Splash Hill 3: Sliding rails
Casino Street 1: Pinball
Casino Street 2: Cards, Cards, Cards
Casino Street 3: Canons Canons Canons
Lost Labyrinth 1: Ball Rollin' (This looks really awful, btw)
Lost Labyrinth 2: Fire and Dynamite (Was I the only one who got caught on the "puzzle" section of this for a long time?
Lost Labyrinth 3: The only level containing water
Mad Gear 1: Steam, Steam, Steam
Mad Gear 2: Cog Fest (speeding up for the sideways cogs is EXCRUCIATING)
Mad Gear 3: Leaning platforms (shockingly awful) and death wall.
By the time you're near the end of the Act you're getting sick of it since you're seeing it so much, and it makes the levels seem very disjointed, like they're not a part of the same level at all. Would have been so much more coherent if these elements were all through each level of an act, but ramped up in difficulty.
And poor fucking Bubbles, how many of those useless Robots did Eggman make? I'd love for someone to make a Badniks to Bubbles ratio chart for each level :lol
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Oh dear, you have deduced that my posts have a callous tone to them! Wherever shall you go from here?pmj said:
I'd rather rudely acknowledge and respect the viewpoints of others than politely only understand the world through my own eyes. Anyway, I'm going to do you a favour, cuddles, and just tell you to have a great summer.
Have a great summer!
IrishNinja
Member
...is it really that complicated? opinions = subjective, its good to come somewhere like GAF and dissect them, but our value judgments are going to vary (possibly quite widely) so i feel perfectly fine hearing you out & exchanging ideas (up to the point of "YOUR VIEWS ARE WRONG" happening), but if you're not even going to respect the discussion or my zany views (Rez/Katamari/ZAMN/etc > your favorite games), nothing can really be said at all.
there's a vast difference between "this doesn't feel like sonic to me", "i think this game sucks" etc and some of the silly shit in this thread where dudes wanna compare hedgehog physics to cars or talk about how good shit was in '93 (so good) and frankly how can i enjoy this tripe, as it's objectively impossible to do so.
i mean, before i start ranting about epistemology here, it's worth pointing out that if you believe debates can't happen with respect to views/viewholders, i can't imagine wanting to engage in debating at all.
there's a vast difference between "this doesn't feel like sonic to me", "i think this game sucks" etc and some of the silly shit in this thread where dudes wanna compare hedgehog physics to cars or talk about how good shit was in '93 (so good) and frankly how can i enjoy this tripe, as it's objectively impossible to do so.
i mean, before i start ranting about epistemology here, it's worth pointing out that if you believe debates can't happen with respect to views/viewholders, i can't imagine wanting to engage in debating at all.
Teknoman said:
Megamix really does look fantastic. Definitely the best fangame I've seen.
I still dislike the homing attack though. It was originally created as a crutch for navigation and combat in 3D space, and is totally unnecessary in 2D. My real issue is that it largely renders both the spindash and peelout obsolete and makes it far too easy to recover from mistakes. With the spindash there was the associated cost for getting a huge burst in speed: you needed to be stationary and there was the charge-up period. Homing attacks are basically "free," without consequence and kind of nullify the need for precision platforming.
Apologies for the hyperbole when I make this point, but say you're debating a racist on his racist views. Now, he as a person has the right to believe whatever he wants. That doesn't mean you have to respect the viewpoints themselves. Nor should you! According to google, the definition of respect is to hold in high esteem, and other similar things. Clearly you don't hold the racist's actual views in high esteem, now do you? No, you hold his RIGHT to have whatever stupid beliefs he has in high esteem.IrishNinja said:
If you actually respected the viewpoints themselves, you don't debate, because you agree. Rudely respecting a viewpoint you disagree with is an oxymoron.
New Super Mario Bros. for DS (not Wii, which was a lot clumsier) was one of my favorite Mario games. I don't know if it's my absolute favorite, but it's close.
Sonic 4 is not analogous to New Super Mario Bros. in any way, shape, or form, other than both being a new entry in highly neglected series. New Super Mario Bros. is Mario in top form; Sonic 4 is Sonic doing the same shit he's been doing for years now. There's no fucking comparison.
Sonic 4 is not analogous to New Super Mario Bros. in any way, shape, or form, other than both being a new entry in highly neglected series. New Super Mario Bros. is Mario in top form; Sonic 4 is Sonic doing the same shit he's been doing for years now. There's no fucking comparison.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Respect for a person often walks hand-in-hand with politeness. Respect for a person's point of view demands no such lip service. Nor does respect for a person's point of view demand respect for the person themselves.
I respect your point of view, PajamaManJim, but there's no reason on Earth I should respect you as a person. I mean, that's silly, we don't even know each other. Thus, I don't feel I need to engage in the absurd Victorian holdover that is "politeness" when discussing opinions about Sonic the Porcupine 4.
I respect your point of view, PajamaManJim, but there's no reason on Earth I should respect you as a person. I mean, that's silly, we don't even know each other. Thus, I don't feel I need to engage in the absurd Victorian holdover that is "politeness" when discussing opinions about Sonic the Porcupine 4.
IrishNinja
Member
pmj said:
this...we're talking about very different things here.
racism - likewise if you were debating say a holocaust denier (no idea what you think would be gained from either exchange, but its you're call), these are morally
(also somewhat subjective; let's sidestep this for now...)
now, if you tell me you think FF VIII is the best of the series, i may find this opinion uh, aesthetically abhorrent (...), likewise "the story in MGS4 is the best of the series!" etc, but we're clearly not talking about the same things. unless you quantify all debates/exchanges the same somehow, which would be very weird, if not a bit dishonest. people naturally get far touchier about political/religious/etc views that are not easily as separated from what they consider their identity than say pieces of entertainment.
when we speak on respect, it's all about how you address the viewholder, moreso than the views. you're absolutely right that its the right to hold such views that's being respected, but then my saying "holy shit dude really part 4's ending alone i mean what the fuck is wrong with you" is very, very true for me, but hey, maybe big boss reminded you of your chatty grandfather who had alzheimers or it was the first game you played or something, fuck do i know? point is, my words aren't going to change the subjective experience you had there, nor should i think (even as we discuss these points) that they should, or that i should be entitled to such.
IrishNinja, I don't think there is much of an actual disagreement, nor do I think people in this thread are disrespecting each other left and right. It's because I didn't see the problem that Segata kept posting about that I responded. The tone of conversation in here, I feel, is for the most part fair. It's certainly no worse than the GAF average.
For the record, I like you and your antagonistic posting style, Segata.
For the record, I like you and your antagonistic posting style, Segata.
Allan Holdsworth
Member
loosus said:
You mean the controls right? I agree that is one aspect where NSMBWii is worse than NSMB.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
So neither Sega or Nintendo's updated 2d platformers have gotten it right? What a twist! This thread keeps on delivering.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
SwiftSketcher said:
Except it's kinda like comparing your car getting a dent, to it catching on fire and flying off a cliff.
So I think everything has pretty much been said already, but I just want to chime in and agree with everyone who says they ruined the physics (this is just based on playing the Xbox demo.) The player physics of the original games were a crucial element and a defining feature that set Sonic apart from Mario. In Sonic 4 they pretty much butchered it. Being able to spin-dash, take off at full speed and then jump and come to a complete stop is awkward as hell. If Sonic runs up a wall vertically and then jumps off, he should jump off sideways perpendicular to the surface, not vertically, that just feels weird. I agree with those who say it looks like they ported a bad Flash/Klik&Play game.
I wouldn't fault anyone for being able to look past the weird player control and have fun with the game, just don't say it controls like Sonic 2 because that's objectively wrong. I don't understand people who think it's nit-picking to analyze the player physics and animation. What's the big deal if his running animation looks dumb and jumping has weird physics? Well, when 99% of what you're doing in the game is running and jumping, it kind of makes a difference.
I think the most telling thing about Sonic 4 is that they somehow managed to program better player physics on a 16-bit system that could only do integer math.
I can say a few positive things about the game, though:
- Probably the best console Sonic game in years, but that's not saying much
- The music isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be. (Splash Hill act 1 anyway.) It's not amazing, but I'd take it over New Super Mario Bros. music.
- The level design is less linear than I expected (if only the player physics actually matched)
- Sonic actually feels like he accelerates at the right speed (if only he didn't come to a sudden stop) it just looks weird because the walking animation is way too slow.
- The art direction isn't terrible, and I don't mind cel-shading (although I don't like the model for Sonic)
- It makes me want to go play one of the good Sonic games.
At this point I'd buy it at $5-$10, or maybe get the combo pack when all the episodes are out.
I'd love it if they improved the player controls for episode 2, but I have no doubt that they will keep it exactly the same. I'd love to be proven wrong.
I wouldn't fault anyone for being able to look past the weird player control and have fun with the game, just don't say it controls like Sonic 2 because that's objectively wrong. I don't understand people who think it's nit-picking to analyze the player physics and animation. What's the big deal if his running animation looks dumb and jumping has weird physics? Well, when 99% of what you're doing in the game is running and jumping, it kind of makes a difference.
I think the most telling thing about Sonic 4 is that they somehow managed to program better player physics on a 16-bit system that could only do integer math.
I can say a few positive things about the game, though:
- Probably the best console Sonic game in years, but that's not saying much
- The music isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be. (Splash Hill act 1 anyway.) It's not amazing, but I'd take it over New Super Mario Bros. music.
- The level design is less linear than I expected (if only the player physics actually matched)
- Sonic actually feels like he accelerates at the right speed (if only he didn't come to a sudden stop) it just looks weird because the walking animation is way too slow.
- The art direction isn't terrible, and I don't mind cel-shading (although I don't like the model for Sonic)
- It makes me want to go play one of the good Sonic games.
At this point I'd buy it at $5-$10, or maybe get the combo pack when all the episodes are out.
I'd love it if they improved the player controls for episode 2, but I have no doubt that they will keep it exactly the same. I'd love to be proven wrong.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Roto13 said:
Ah - but air control is something that happens because the player is deliberately making it happen. He is flying through the air to the right, and says "No, I want to go left." and attempts to complete that action by pushing to the left.
What I am describing here happens because of a lack of player action. There's no control involved. Though the player could be telling the game, "I want to stop", he might not necessarily be saying that, either. Regardless, the result is the same: Sonic stops dead in his tracks in mid-air.
Roto13 said:
And I don't, because there are times where holding a direction in other Sonic games will make you miss your intended destination. When confronted with a scripted scene, I have learned that it is better to let go of the controls or else I run the risk of breaking the perfectly-planned sequence of springs and boosters.
There are other times where, much like driving a car, I want to "feather the gas", so to speak. Meaning I want the vehicle to coast on its own momentum while I very slightly alter the torque, in order to afford me more control over where I am going. Sonic 4 does not allow me to "feather the gas", because the moment it detects zero directional input, Sonic immediately stops. This does not happen in classic Sonic games.
How many different ways do I have to paint this picture?
Also note that this isn't like Mega Man, where immediately stopping in the air works because there's really only two speeds Mega man can travel. In that case, re-pressing a direction just makes MM travel the same speed as before. It works in a tight challenge-based platformer like that since it easily allows you to correct your jumps with good timing. In Sonic 4, because Sonic accelerates so incredibly slowly, once you stop you're pretty much committed to where you're landing no matter what you want to do.
Diablohead
Member
If there is one thing megamix had done right it's some of it's awesome music, starry night zone is an awesome tune.Gravijah said:
I don't see megamix as a perfect sonic game as it's one which seems to be throwing everything into it, it's very impressive that is still runs on a megadrive with so much content.
MegaMixis pretty iffy in general, but it's still an amazing effort worthy of praise and probably one of the better fan projects around.
The problem is that you picture is flawed. You're continually trying to justify your own refusal to adhere to how Sonic 4 works as a game because other Sonic games worked differently. The issue isn't Sonic 4, it's entirely exasperated by your own refusal to adapt based upon the faulty premise that the game should suddenly not involve holding down the direction you want to go while in the air even though you know cognitively that it's build to have you hold the direction you want to go.
You can cite years playing Sonic games that worked differently in this regard, but the fact is that Sonic 4 doesn't and holding down becomes easily learned after the first two times, sure it would be fantastic if it was communicated to the player, but it isn't the issue you're making it out to be.
The problem is that you picture is flawed. You're continually trying to justify your own refusal to adhere to how Sonic 4 works as a game because other Sonic games worked differently. The issue isn't Sonic 4, it's entirely exasperated by your own refusal to adapt based upon the faulty premise that the game should suddenly not involve holding down the direction you want to go while in the air even though you know cognitively that it's build to have you hold the direction you want to go.
You can cite years playing Sonic games that worked differently in this regard, but the fact is that Sonic 4 doesn't and holding down becomes easily learned after the first two times, sure it would be fantastic if it was communicated to the player, but it isn't the issue you're making it out to be.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Zen said:
My entire point is that this is the sort of change you shouldn't have to adjust to, especially in the face of Sonic 4 purporting to be "the Sonic game you've waited 16 years for". Being "different" and being "bad" can, in fact, be one in the same.
And don't get me wrong - focusing on this one thing is just small potatoes compared to the bigger picture regarding what is wrong with Sonic 4's controls. If you want, we could also talk about how rolling in to a ball in Sonic 4 is completely fucked, and how there are sections in Casino Street that specifically reference level design from old Sonic games, except they don't even begin to function the way they should for an "homage" like that to work.
The game does not play the way it wants me to play it (which is the way my memory knows how to play Sonic 3). It's like sitting a seasoned NASCAR driver down in a Formula-1 car and telling him to buckle in for 200 laps. Sure, with enough practice, he's going to "get used to it", but it's the wrong car for the wrong kind of track, and the wrong kind of driver. Just because he's going to "get used to it" doesn't mean it's correct.
My problem is not with the controls themselves, I should remind everyone. I love Sonic Rush. The controls are appropriate for Sonic Rush. I am not one of the crazy, ultra-picky Sonic fans like Mama Robotnik. I can, have, and will enjoy Sonic games that are "different" in a good way. I even write it in my review:
The problem is, very little attention seems to have been paid to the gameplay ecology of the classic Sonic games, and Sonic 4 comes off less like an apology to a battered fanbase and more like "This should be good enough, I guess."
Mama Robotnik
Member
RunDLC gaming site has a wishlist for Sonic 4 Episode 2. Some of their list:
(They want the loop screen-spinning effect implemented in all versions of the game.)
I have just checked their content, and they don't seem to be a joke site.
Unless they're really really good.
(They want the loop screen-spinning effect implemented in all versions of the game.)
I have just checked their content, and they don't seem to be a joke site.
Unless they're really really good.
RobbieNick
Junior Member
http://www.sonicstadium.org/articles/reviews/2010/10/tss-review-sonic-the-hedgehog-4-episode-1/
Best review on the net IMHO. Dreadnux did a great job.
QFT!
There's really no need for all this bickering and fighting.
Those who enjoy the game had little to no problems with the way the game handled. They're not insane. They just enjoyed it for what it is.
Those who hated the game hated what they did to the physics and the fact they bunked inertia and Sonic's rolling speed.
Both are right. I've been pretty defensive on this game, but you know what? Let the haters be vocal about what they don't like in this game. It can only help make episode 2 that much better.
Best review on the net IMHO. Dreadnux did a great job.
QFT!
There's really no need for all this bickering and fighting.
Those who enjoy the game had little to no problems with the way the game handled. They're not insane. They just enjoyed it for what it is.
Those who hated the game hated what they did to the physics and the fact they bunked inertia and Sonic's rolling speed.
Both are right. I've been pretty defensive on this game, but you know what? Let the haters be vocal about what they don't like in this game. It can only help make episode 2 that much better.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I think NSMB was a test to see if a game like NSMB Wii could sell well.I AM JOHN! said:
Anyway, what are the control schemes for this on the Wii?
Mama Robotnik said:
If you actually read the descriptions, though, they're completely right with everything. I wouldn't mind Tails and Knuckles, being able to run as fast as we could in Sonic 3 and a story that goes into no more detail than Sonic 3's story. Not that it's needed, but it would be nice. However, knowing Sega, if they catch wind that we want a story... yikes.
Also, fuck the iPhone effects :lol
Mama Robotnik
Member
Willy105 said:
They're fully entitled to their opinion, and their desire for Sonic 4 to be fast fast fast fast fast, return the shitty little friends, have a flippy rotaty screen, and bring back the epic stories and oscar-worthy dialogue of the more recent games in the series.
I just link to it because it shows how strongly opposing the viewpoints about Sonic games are. The ideas in this article are absolutely, completely, positively the opposite direction I think this franchise should go.
I don't think I'm acting surprised though.
Mama Robotnik
Member
DR2K said:
They weren't until they started talking. Then everyone became a shitty friend. "Eggman", Metal Sonic, Rogue McBatTits, even Sonic himself.
RobbieNick
Junior Member
Mama Robotnik said:
Isn't that true of ALL video game mascots? Look at Samus or Kid Icarus. Ruined once they got a voice.