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SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 4 or AGAINST |OT| of Huelen in Green-Eyed Heaven
- Thread starter WillyFive
- Start date
Diablohead
Member
lol really? they are so fucking blind.
Gamecocks625
Member
ShadiWulf said:
Diablohead
Member
jetsetfluken
Member
ShadiWulf said:
By "many gamers" they just are giving a nice way of saying "the delusional 10 year olds who don't now shit about the Genesis/Mega-Drive games and will buy it regardless, just has to say Sonic on it".
I guess you can also group in the more casual ones who fell for Sonic 4's "the true sequel after 16 years" propaganda and then now are saying it was "missing something", all the while still putting their hands over their ears when logic is brought into it as to WHY something is wrong and missing.
RobbieNick
Junior Member
When me and Nuckles87 interviewed him at E3 for Sonic Colors, he was speaking in Japanese but he would be saying "super high-speed action" like 10 times!:lolShadiWulf said:
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
ShadiWulf said:
Ahahahahaa :lol
Lijik said:
I have. The only one I don't own is Advance 3, and the increasingly more offensive thing done with the two first advance games are their insistence on long stretches of rails to grind.
They both have the follow through physics when you jump, both have the momentum stuff when rolling down a hill, et cetera.
Another superfluous addition is the bucket of extra moves you can perform in Advance 2, but that's got little to do with the physics. Sonic 4's awkwardness is really isolated to Sonic 4, and isn't really particularly informed by any of Dimps' prior games. Apart from the double tap air dash out of the Advance games being the default thing you do when you press jump again mid-air.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
SimonM7 said:
There are hardly any rails in the first Sonic Advance game, and they're almost impossible to use.
I like the extra moves in Sonic Advance 2, they add extra mobility to the character. You just gotta know when and how to use them properly.
But yeah - none of the Sonic Advance games are really indicative of the physics in Sonic 4; it's more in the concept and the stage themes. The physics engine, though, is quite literally ripped from Sonic Rush. All of the problems you have with controlling Sonic in 4 are present in Sonic Rush.
ShadiWulf said:
..Can someone fire him? Please? He's also said that Sonic Team are professionals at what they do, and fans have no clue what they want from a Sonic game. Granted, some fans want a lot of strange things, but solid, familiar mechanics are something I think most gamers would want from a Sonic game.
Sega1991 said:
Yeah, rails are kept to a minimum in 1, but ramped up in 2, hence "increasingly". I think they're the single most detrimental thing to games that are otherwise - and in spite of rails - enjoyable.
I kinda like them too, but if I'm wearing my critique hat rather than my wanting-to-like-Sonic-stuff hat, I think the moves make proceedings unnecessarily cluttered. They're also kinda weirdly inconsistent depending on what you bounce off of and so forth. I think the extra mobility is a valid point, but put to better effect in Rush, where they feel more intuitive and more consistent.
Because in regards to your last paragraph/point, while I notice when I try the dpad thing that Sonic Rush handles like 4 on that core level, the gameplay of Rush is so vastly different from how any of the Advance and/or Megadrive originals play. I think it's to Rush's benefit that the controls are more conventional and "twitchy", but it's definitely a mind boggling mistake to keep them for a game that goes back to minute, precision platforming.
But since you're clearly invested and informed, what is Advance 3 like? I own pretty much every modern Sonic game apart from that and Sonic Battle, and I'm looking to maybe pick up the ones I've missed.
I don't think Advance 3 is nearly as bad as people say it is, but then again I'm generally the wrong person to ask when it comes to confusing level design, which 3 has in spades.
Its biggest problem is that the team system is downright broken in spots and switching teams is a total hassle. Also that its two best stages just so happen to be the last two, which means going through five okay-to-bleh stages to get there.
on the plus side, it's much better than the crapfest that was the second game and it has my favorite soundtrack of all three games by a mile.
Its biggest problem is that the team system is downright broken in spots and switching teams is a total hassle. Also that its two best stages just so happen to be the last two, which means going through five okay-to-bleh stages to get there.
on the plus side, it's much better than the crapfest that was the second game and it has my favorite soundtrack of all three games by a mile.
Anticitizen One
Banned
Question. How do you know which levels has the special stages and which doesnt. I want to get all of the chaos emeralds.
RobbieNick
Junior Member
Anticitizen One said:
End a stage with at least 50 rings and look for a giant ring.
AzureNightmare
Banned
So Iizuka admits that he and his team are incompetant, about damn time.
Anticitizen One
Banned
RobbieNick said:
So you can just get 50 rings in the first 7 stages to unlock all 7 special stages?
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
That's the main reason why I'm not holding my breath for any major changes in the physics department.SimonM7 said:
I mean, it's technically possible, but it'd probably come off as sloppy and inconsistent when switching between episodes.
SimonM7 said:
Unless the game's design relies on certain specific aspects of the shitty physics, it would be easy to fix them.
But they're not going to. They clearly thought this was adequate.
I'm just wondering how long it'll take for them to release another compilation, because calling it Sonic 4 seems like a solid excuse to compile them again.
However, tweaking the physics and adding Tails and Knuckles could be a good excuse for Sonic fans to buy the compilation.
That Mike Hayes person insists that they're listening to fans in moving ahead with the episodes, and if one issue has been made abundantly clear at this point it's that fans aren't happy with the physics.
If they want to maintain any kind of credibility I have to imagine that's at the top of the list of priorities right now.
As for retroactive application, I think it'd be fine. The homing attack is instrumental in a lot of the level design so that would stay (and I think overall people are at least *fairly* over the homing attack at this point) but altering the basic movement wouldn't really mess anything up.
If they want to maintain any kind of credibility I have to imagine that's at the top of the list of priorities right now.
As for retroactive application, I think it'd be fine. The homing attack is instrumental in a lot of the level design so that would stay (and I think overall people are at least *fairly* over the homing attack at this point) but altering the basic movement wouldn't really mess anything up.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
According to Sega, altering the physics for Episode 1 would essentially make it a broken mess. The level layouts were specifically tailored around Sonic 4's current physics.Ravidrath said:
Not sure how much I buy that excuse though. I'd still like to see a fan hack of Sonic 4 levels with old-school physics, see how much it "breaks" the core gameplay. Would be interesting, either way.
To be fair, maybe that's semi the case. I don't doubt that jump distances and whatever can fuck things up, but I dunno if that's what fans are even asking for. There's a certain reliable logic to how Sonic handles in the old games, and that's prolly what people miss, not necessarily an identical replica of their physics engine.
I think if you keep distances, height of jumps et cetera, intact, you can still give it back a sense of weight and follow through that'll make it *feel* more like people remember.
I think if you keep distances, height of jumps et cetera, intact, you can still give it back a sense of weight and follow through that'll make it *feel* more like people remember.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
I'm assuming that's basically what most people will settle for at this point. The physics don't necessarily have to be a 1:1 carbon copy of the 16-bit era, but they should at the very least adhere to the basic principles of nuanced momentum-based movement (emphasis on momentum).
So I finally got this! To put it mildly; I'm a huge, huge huuuuge old school Sonic fan, and have been all over the place in terms of anticipation for this. But to be frank, the more I read about supposed physics issues, the less I looked forward to it, to the point I felt like I was going to buy it purely out of obligation, with none of the embarrassing child-like glee I should have for a new-old Sonic game. But nonetheless, I played it through in one sitting (the only way to go through old school Sonic 
)
Right, let's get nitpicks out of the way;
- MUSIC It ranges from forgettable to somewhat charming, which compares unfavourably to the Mega Drive games which range from awesome to awesome (to one-off rubbish). There's still some good tunes (Mad Gear particularly) and I love the use of the 16-bit percussion, but the compositions just generally aren't that great, which is a real let down.
-The visuals were up and down for me. I have the Wii version but am kinda wishing it was higher res. Some of the tiles looked pretty dull while otherwise were quite nice, but it's a shame a fair amount of it reminded me a generic PC shareware look. The biggest offender was the special stages; some half-assed kaleidoscope effect with some amateurish looking tiles? Ehh :/
-I occasionally stumbled into that problem with Sonic losing his momentum when letting go...like two times, but it was noticeable, and if they consider a patch I'd like to see it fixed.
-The enemy lines put in just for homing attack spams aren't a lot of fun, they sometimes put a clever spin on them but when possible I just bounce off each of them which is more fun and rewarding.
-Couldn't they have had the 1up tune from Sonic 1/2? The Sonic 3 one was an odd choice, I'd much have preferred the more classic and iconic original one (yeah this is nitpicking at its most silly).
-I liked the idea of reusing bosses whilst doing new things with them, but using the Sonic 2 final boss again? Granted that's the best one in the series, but it felt a bit cheap to see it rise up in almost exactly the same fashion (with inferior music). Thankfully they do enough interesting things with his attack patterns.
-No classic controller support for Wii? Why the hell not?
So...err, yeah, what I did like then:
-Robotnik looking at the camera and laughing like a true devilish bastard
-Hey, that level design...it's competent?
-The special stages were GREAT! I was really surprised by this; they're cleverly designed, take a nice spin on the Sonic 1 special stage concept and make clever use of certain mechanics (particularly the disappearing diamonds/gates that lock when you pass them). It's a shame then that they look crappy, but I enjoyed them very much.
-Hey this is some good level design...?
-I had a lot of fun with the homing attack; but what was also nice was that it didn't overshadow the spindash. I was using both tons to get speed boosts, and the levels were clearly designed to take advantage of them in fun and clever ways.
-Sweet lord they actually knew what they were doing, these levels are really well designed!
-I like the look of Sonic, sure it's not exactly how he used to look. I'm very glad they brought the running-circle(oval?) back, having that animation combined with throttling through levels at full speed is so rewarding and fun.
-HOLY LORD THIS GAME IS REALLY WELL DESIGNED!
Overall then? Early on I was liking it but nonetheless disappointed it didn't seem to be earning that 4 in the title, but this is a game that picks up, and you know what? I had an absolute blast As I laboured, I was taken aback by how good the level design was. It was challenging, innovative, and yet? It felt like old school Sonic. It did enough new with old concepts to keep it from purely reliant on nostalgia, and there were some interesting new ideas that were pulled off surprisingly well. I'm honestly really impressed. I also admire them for making the game difficult but it was rarely unfair, at least for me. It's a shame they had to chicken out and make lives disposable, but I can let that slide.
Really, any major disappointments I have are to do with the presentation, but even that picks up later in the game (though damn, I really hope the music improves in eps 2+3). I agree with people saying the game gets better as it goes on, and frankly I was very pleased with it overall. Is it as good as the older games? I think it's too early to say, but when it comes down to it, the level design did wonders for my enjoyment of it. I hope improvements are made in the appropriate places for future episodes (and any patches, can we dream?), but if they're going to get better than what was already such a great first episode, I'm on board
This is also probably the only game I've played where I've constantly said to myself "YESSSSSSS, they didn't fuck it up!...entirely!". I mean damn, I can't believe I liked this as much as I did!
)Right, let's get nitpicks out of the way;
- MUSIC
It ranges from forgettable to somewhat charming, which compares unfavourably to the Mega Drive games which range from awesome to awesome (to one-off rubbish). There's still some good tunes (Mad Gear particularly) and I love the use of the 16-bit percussion, but the compositions just generally aren't that great, which is a real let down.-The visuals were up and down for me. I have the Wii version but am kinda wishing it was higher res. Some of the tiles looked pretty dull while otherwise were quite nice, but it's a shame a fair amount of it reminded me a generic PC shareware look. The biggest offender was the special stages; some half-assed kaleidoscope effect with some amateurish looking tiles? Ehh :/
-I occasionally stumbled into that problem with Sonic losing his momentum when letting go...like two times, but it was noticeable, and if they consider a patch I'd like to see it fixed.
-The enemy lines put in just for homing attack spams aren't a lot of fun, they sometimes put a clever spin on them but when possible I just bounce off each of them which is more fun and rewarding.
-Couldn't they have had the 1up tune from Sonic 1/2? The Sonic 3 one was an odd choice, I'd much have preferred the more classic and iconic original one (yeah this is nitpicking at its most silly).
-I liked the idea of reusing bosses whilst doing new things with them, but using the Sonic 2 final boss again? Granted that's the best one in the series, but it felt a bit cheap to see it rise up in almost exactly the same fashion (with inferior music). Thankfully they do enough interesting things with his attack patterns.
-No classic controller support for Wii? Why the hell not?
So...err, yeah, what I did like then:
-Robotnik looking at the camera and laughing like a true devilish bastard
-Hey, that level design...it's competent?
-The special stages were GREAT! I was really surprised by this; they're cleverly designed, take a nice spin on the Sonic 1 special stage concept and make clever use of certain mechanics (particularly the disappearing diamonds/gates that lock when you pass them). It's a shame then that they look crappy, but I enjoyed them very much.
-Hey this is some good level design...?
-I had a lot of fun with the homing attack; but what was also nice was that it didn't overshadow the spindash. I was using both tons to get speed boosts, and the levels were clearly designed to take advantage of them in fun and clever ways.
-Sweet lord they actually knew what they were doing, these levels are really well designed!
-I like the look of Sonic, sure it's not exactly how he used to look. I'm very glad they brought the running-circle(oval?) back, having that animation combined with throttling through levels at full speed is so rewarding and fun.
-HOLY LORD THIS GAME IS REALLY WELL DESIGNED!
Overall then? Early on I was liking it but nonetheless disappointed it didn't seem to be earning that 4 in the title, but this is a game that picks up, and you know what? I had an absolute blast
As I laboured, I was taken aback by how good the level design was. It was challenging, innovative, and yet? It felt like old school Sonic. It did enough new with old concepts to keep it from purely reliant on nostalgia, and there were some interesting new ideas that were pulled off surprisingly well. I'm honestly really impressed. I also admire them for making the game difficult but it was rarely unfair, at least for me. It's a shame they had to chicken out and make lives disposable, but I can let that slide.Really, any major disappointments I have are to do with the presentation, but even that picks up later in the game (though damn, I really hope the music improves in eps 2+3). I agree with people saying the game gets better as it goes on, and frankly I was very pleased with it overall. Is it as good as the older games? I think it's too early to say, but when it comes down to it, the level design did wonders for my enjoyment of it. I hope improvements are made in the appropriate places for future episodes (and any patches, can we dream?), but if they're going to get better than what was already such a great first episode, I'm on board
This is also probably the only game I've played where I've constantly said to myself "YESSSSSSS, they didn't fuck it up!...entirely!". I mean damn, I can't believe I liked this as much as I did!
FateBreaker
Member
It's not amazing, but I did enjoy this...which is saying a lot.
CurseoftheGods
Banned
I thought that the level design was great, and the first episode was a promising start for the full game.
I thought this game was awkward as hell. Certainly playable, but it was weird as fuck for me. I'd give it a 5/10. 6 at the most.
FUCK THE CARD PLATFORMING AT THE END OF CASINO STREET ACT 2. AND FUCK THESE WEAK-ASS PHYSICS FOR MAKING ME STOP RIGHT BEFORE REACHING THE PLATFORM AT THE END OF LOST LABYRINTH ACT 2. AND FUCK THE LAST BOSS. SERIOUSLY. SCREW THAT GUY.[/capslock]
FUCK THE CARD PLATFORMING AT THE END OF CASINO STREET ACT 2. AND FUCK THESE WEAK-ASS PHYSICS FOR MAKING ME STOP RIGHT BEFORE REACHING THE PLATFORM AT THE END OF LOST LABYRINTH ACT 2. AND FUCK THE LAST BOSS. SERIOUSLY. SCREW THAT GUY.[/capslock]
Catalix said:
I don't buy it.
I assure you they can make it so Sonic can't walk up 90 degree walls without ruining the levels.
And they could adjust his jump acceleration, etc. and maintain the same distance metrics (jump height, distance) easily, which is what the design is actually based on.
Upsidedown Fuji
Member
TheOGB said:
The final boss is actually a huge pushover once you notice his patterns and remember where to stand or move to.
FateBreaker said:
same here. i've done everything but get the no damage on eggzone achievement. the game is fun but the controls and physics arent there yet. sonic is way too heavy/slow until he gets up to full speed and the way you get stuck on slopes is bullshit.
i will buy the next episode but i hope they clean it up a bit.
i dont buy it either, they could easily keep sonics limitations in check to the level design while making his movement feel more like the old games. they likely dont want to waste the time and money on fixing it.
AdventureRacing
Member
Foffy said:
This point is repeated ad nauseum and is really overblown. In fact i don't think the vast majority of sonic fans are worse than the fans of other games.
It's just that they have been treated like shit for so long. Pick any other large franchise and put out multiple shitty games every year for like 15 years and than see what the fan base is like.
Most of the complaints are straight forward and i would think obvious. Sonic fans want a game that plays like the old sonic games. Proper physics, good level design (not to many boosts etc), no homing attack, a decent soundtrack (no lame punk/rock songs PLEASE) and a sonic who looks and animates properly.
It's so damn simple and i think that's why so many of us are so frustrated.
I realise you weren't insulting the fan base and this wasn't directed at you so much as it was directed at the people who discredit any critiscms of modern sonic games with this argument.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
SimonM7 said:
Opinion on Advance 3 is kind of divisive. I personally don't like it; it feels sloppy as hell. The whole gimmick of the game is setting up a team - the game was riding on the coat tails of Sonic Heroes. Depending on who is paired with who, your move set changes. Pairing Sonic with Tails will give you gameplay closer to Sonic Advance 2, but pairing Sonic somebody else with give you an entirely different set of moves. The worst is when certain pairs lock off "essential" character moves. Knuckles + Sonic, as I recall, won't let Knuckles climb, for instance.
Level design is probably the worst offender, though. Most graphics feel like ugly leftovers they had from other games, and the actual layouts are full of tons of "oops, no way you could have known that was there and now you took damage and/or died." moments - way more than most other Dimps Sonic games. Get used to the game bringing you up to full speed only to make you slam in to a wall where a bed of spikes pops out of the ground.
The game also plays off of the story of Sonic Battle, so you have this robot character called Gemerl that you fight multiple times throughout the game. It's basically the same boss fight repeated over and over again, but every time you face him, he has one new step added to his attack pattern. It's a cheap way to pad the game out.
Oh yeah, and there's these worthless hub worlds that don't really have any reason to exist other than to put an extra 20-30 seconds between accessing the next level. There's literally nothing to do in them besides find the next stage entrance.
Basically, I'd recommend you steer clear of it if possible.
Community Forum
Member
Lijik said:
This is amazing!
LOL @ the boss music.