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Sonic the Hedgehog Community |OT2 Battle|

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qq more

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The classic ones or non Dimps versions often had instances where if you didn't memorize the level or didn't know what to expect, you were utterly hosed (Hello Mystic Cave). Sonic....shoot even other platformers are sometimes predicated on you getting to know the level or else you're screwed. I came from an era when we had Bubsy and that was literally a game where jumping up would get you killed so you sure as hell better memorize stuff! Yes Dimps gave us that GOODNESS AWFUL Episode 2 but I feel as while they're flawed, they get killed for too much at times.

Mystic Cave... that spike pit was so cruel. I have no idea what they were thinking there when the levels before it were so well designed. :(

And now I sort of see why the memorization doesn't bug you so much. I guess it really comes from what kind of games you grew up with, so I guess that's why we have different tastes! Personally I'm still against the idea of cheap placement. So I guess we should just agree to disagree!

I think the signs in Generations are dumb.

This thing? You see this thing?

w99bAx0.png


It should be obvious to the player that there's a bottomless pit in the area. In terms of level design, if it isn't obvious to the player that it's a darn bottomless pit, then there aren't be a bottomless pit there. Level tropes and level cues should make the player somewhat aware when and where there's going to be a pit, especially in terms of pacing the level out. It's almost instinctive sometimes. If you're in a hilly zone, there's going to be bottomless pits there. If you're in chemical plant, the water's toxic half the time, and the rotating/shuffling platforms are there to mess you up, so you know there's a bottomless pit there. If you're in Wing Fortress or whatever, you're up in the sky, so watch your butt.

It's these things that I like in terms of level design. Shoot, I think these things are unnecessary when the level is designed well, and adheres to the level's tropes.

qq, you design levels, tell me what you think. Put your game developer hat on and sound smart for a minute.

I feel it's unnecessary, but not a big deal as long as the levels' pits are still well designed. Thankfully it's toggle-able, so I had that off for the entire game and didn't run into any cheap pits. Nothing worth getting upset about as long as it doesn't encourage the level designers to go crazy with pits.
 
I think the signs in Generations are dumb.

This thing? You see this thing?

w99bAx0.png


It should be obvious to the player that there's a bottomless pit in the area. In terms of level design, if it isn't obvious to the player that it's a darn bottomless pit, then there aren't be a bottomless pit there. Level tropes and level cues should make the player somewhat aware when and where there's going to be a pit, especially in terms of pacing the level out. It's almost instinctive sometimes. If you're in a hilly zone, there's going to be bottomless pits there. If you're in chemical plant, the water's toxic half the time, and the rotating/shuffling platforms are there to mess you up, so you know there's a bottomless pit there. If you're in Wing Fortress or whatever, you're up in the sky, so watch your butt.

It's these things that I like in terms of level design. Shoot, I think these things are unnecessary when the level is designed well, and adheres to the level's tropes.

Well they wouldn't need the signs if the level design was clear enough to indicate pits as you say but unfortunately that's not always the case what with Sonic stages having the multiple layered paths, this is kind of why even though the games have got better we're still not quite back at the classic quality since it still isn't always clear if you are going to fall to your grisly death of just land in an area with a spring that shoots you back up.

Generations has a bit of a thing going here where a few gaps you miss are the previously mentioned spring yourself back out deal so you lose time and not lives, other times it's most certainly losing lives, and that's where our friend mr sign comes in. Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that the sign idea is good outright as it indicates flaws in the level design to begin with as you're pointing out but lets just say we're I'm better off for having those signs in Generations. Likewise the designers shouldn't rely on them as a crutch to keep making unclear pits.

Jumping back to old Sonic games, off the top of my head a lot of the pits that appear in Sonic 2 have the section designed in such a way that the pit area takes up a significant portion of the screen and there's visibly not much going on down there, no slight scenery vegetation sticking up, just AIR.
 
I think the signs in Generations are dumb.

This thing? You see this thing?

w99bAx0.png


It should be obvious to the player that there's a bottomless pit in the area. In terms of level design, if it isn't obvious to the player that it's a darn bottomless pit, then there aren't be a bottomless pit there. Level tropes and level cues should make the player somewhat aware when and where there's going to be a pit, especially in terms of pacing the level out. It's almost instinctive sometimes. If you're in a hilly zone, there's going to be bottomless pits there. If you're in chemical plant, the water's toxic half the time, and the rotating/shuffling platforms are there to mess you up, so you know there's a bottomless pit there. If you're in Wing Fortress or whatever, you're up in the sky, so watch your butt.

It's these things that I like in terms of level design. Shoot, I think these things are unnecessary when the level is designed well, and adheres to the level's tropes.

qq, you design levels, tell me what you think. Put your game developer hat on and sound smart for a minute.

To be honest, a lot of platformers train you to expect bottomless pits in any level. When you put it that way, a lot of the levels in Sonic should make you expect a bottomless pit or two. Hill level? There will be pits. Lava level? Has to be a pit here or there. Casino style level? Well you're literally gambling with your life there so expect a jerk move or two...etc...etc
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
To be honest, a lot of platformers train you to expect bottomless pits in any level. When you put it that way, a lot of the levels in Sonic should make you expect a bottomless pit or two. Hill level? There will be pits. Lava level? Has to be a pit here or there. Casino style level? Well you're literally gambling with your life there so expect a jerk move or two...etc...etc
Well, yes, that's the point I was making. The level design should make the player learn to expect whether or not they will encounter a pit in that level. Older games did that without needing the signs because it played along with the player's instinctual feeling towards the level tropes in general.

Take my favourite level Hill Top here. Even if it lacks the background graphic, you know what I'm gonna say.

00tAfiO.png


Art design helps the player realize whether or not they're going to meet a pit, as opposed to simply being warned "here's a pit!" It's just a little thing in terms of design that goes a long way without having to put hazard symbols or bubble chains all over the place because it isn't randomly placed in the level. It fits well with the level's pacing and the level's theme.

It's not necessarily Mega Man-esque memorization, but rather it's just working with your instincts. Some of the pit placement that Dimps does can be out-of-place, which doesn't work well with what the level design has facilitated, hence the sign usage in some of the Generations/Sonic 4: Ep 2 levels was unnecessary. The signs seemed to have been added because of a precedent that Dimps's random level design had in the past. So... yeah. *shrug*
 

OMG Aero

Member
I'm not sure how I feel about the Desert level on the 3DS version. It looks alright though, no DIMPS-ish BS traps, but the pacing I'm not so sure about. Maybe it'll grow on me. Could be just the way the guy is playing it.
My problem with the 3DS desert level is that the camera looks too zoomed in. It looked like you hardly tell what is coming up at all.
 
Well, yes, that's the point I was making. The level design should make the player learn to expect whether or not they will encounter a pit in that level. Older games did that without needing the signs because it played along with the player's instinctual feeling towards the level tropes in general.

Take my favourite level Hill Top here. Even if it lacks the background graphic, you know what I'm gonna say.

00tAfiO.png


Art design helps the player realize whether or not they're going to meet a pit, as opposed to simply being warned "here's a pit!" It's just a little thing in terms of design that goes a long way without having to put hazard symbols or bubble chains all over the place because it isn't randomly placed in the level. It fits well with the level's pacing and the level's theme.

It's not necessarily Mega Man-esque memorization, but rather it's just working with your instincts. Some of the pit placement that Dimps does can be out-of-place, which doesn't work well with what the level design has facilitated, hence the sign usage in some of the Generations/Sonic 4: Ep 2 levels was unnecessary. The signs seemed to have been added because of a precedent that Dimps's random level design had in the past. So... yeah. *shrug*

You bring up Hill Top but I honestly remember half of those pits not even being bottomless but leading to lava. And that is what I'm saying, a lot of the usual Sonic levels (Hill, Lava, Ice, Casino, Sky, Space Station) tend to train you to expect...to tread carefully. Shoot most platformers teach you that...I know for sure that Mario teaches you to be careful at first because there will always be 'Gotcha!' moments...they train you to expect it. It's just when you get used to them, you tend to overlook those things because you're so familiar with the level. I know it's that way for me.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
You bring up Hill Top but I honestly remember half of those pits not even being bottomless but leading to lava. And that is what I'm saying, a lot of the usual Sonic levels (Hill, Lava, Ice, Casino, Sky, Space Station) tend to train you to expect...to tread carefully.
But that's what I'm saying, though! I agree with you! Hahaha. The level tropes make the player realize that there should be pits, and the pacing of the level design makes the player keep in mind when to expect them. At least that's what it's like for me. It's not a sense of memorization, but more of a feel--especially the first time through the level. You can get through something easily the first time through when the level is paced well and when you keep the level trope in mind.

That's why I think the signs are unnecessary and redundant. But they were added because some of the level design Dimps employed weren't paced as well, or certain hazards were added in with weird pacing patterns. Hence the sign usage at present.
 
Signs are for the weak. When I played games, you accepted your pathetic death like a man and played again!

Unless it's Lost Levels, then you just shut the game off and not accept that garbage.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
Signs are for the weak. When I played games, you accepted your pathetic death like a man and played again!

Unless it's Lost Levels, then you just shut the game off and not accept that garbage.
I think we're starting to show our age.

With respect to Lost Levels, loooool. US SMB2 is my SMB2. I love that game.

Edit: I'm almost finished Adventure Time 3DS now. I have never watched this show in the slightest, but I'm kinda disappointed that it's so short, or that it doesn't take as many cues from Zelda 2 as I'd like it to. Regardless, I... kinda had a good time with it? The music's great. It looks good. It's kinda funny. Not bad.
 
I got as far as 8-4 castle before I finally gave up hope of trying to beat it...perhaps one day.

Gonna have to try beating SMB2 one day, I've never really bothered to play it much, I play to chuck veggies at stuff. Phanto is a jerk.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Signs are for the weak. When I played games, you accepted your pathetic death like a man and played again!

Unless it's Lost Levels, then you just shut the game off and not accept that garbage.

I was fine with Lost Levels until Wind was introduced. Then I was like "NOPE I BEAT THIS GAME. DID EVERYONE SEE? I BEAT IT. IT IS OVER."


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaanyway, so my brother and I are playing Sonic 2K6, and I was wondering if there is any way to make that terrible snowboard jumping mechanic work better?

Also, I beat Sonic Generations for console awhile back and really liked it. I was wondering: how does the 3DS version stack up?
 
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaanyway, so my brother and I are playing Sonic 2K6, and I was wondering if there is any way to make that terrible snowboard jumping mechanic work better?

Also, I beat Sonic Generations for console awhile back and really liked it. I was wondering: how does the 3DS version stack up?

1) nope

2) badly
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
Yo, Vanilla Dome was one of my favourites because of the overworld theme.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaanyway, so my brother and I are playing Sonic 2K6, and I was wondering if there is any way to make that terrible snowboard jumping mechanic work better?

Also, I beat Sonic Generations for console awhile back and really liked it. I was wondering: how does the 3DS version stack up?
Hahahahahahahaha. Making the snowboard work in 2006. That's funny.

Nope. And because we've been getting this question a lot, I'll probably write something up for it. Odd I never did a formal writeup for it in 2011 when I'd initially played through it, but I suppose it's because I found it utterly unremarkable. I found early impressions from the old Generations thread, but outside of that, I never wrote anything after finishing it off.

I found this, where I said I'd sleep on it, but didn't post anything after.

I might need some time to think about that one. I'm not really liking what I played, but there are a few things that I liked too. Overall, the game isn't too bad, but it isn't great either. Perhaps if Dimps had more time, it would have been a better product as it's clearly lacking in design. Anyone know off-hand how long Dimps had to develop this game?

Right now, I want to say that I liked Rush and Advance 1 more than this since a lot of Generations 3DS felt ho-hum in comparison to both of those games (ie: I had to take breaks a few times because I could not bring myself to play this one sitting despite being 2-3 hours long). I just finished up Time Eater. *sigh*

That Time Eater battle is better than the HD version by far, and there a part where he
casts a time spell where he throws clocks at you and you have to dodge the minute/hour hands
and it looks kinda cool in 3D. But there are a few parts of it that I found absolutely loathsome. Also, you cannot customize music for this. You can unlock extra music, but you can listen to it in the Collection option. Tails is the only friend here, so don't worry if you don't like the other friends. I found that a little odd based on Colours DS having an abundance of friends.

Like in the console versions, all Chaos Emeralds are required. Also... No
Super Sonic
in main levels other than Time Eater. The Rival Races are boring, imo (sometimes it felt like I was playing a watered-down Sonic Rivals).

I need to sleep on this to see if I like it or not (because I want to be fair to it). I haven't tried all the missions I've unlocked yet either. Edit: I want to say I like what they did with Classic Sonic, though, in terms of movement and control... but some of it feels right, and then other times it feels... kind of weird. Modern Sonic plays like Rush, but the level design is very lacking.

RobbieNick's impressions are here:
Just got home from work. Bought the 3DS game before work and played it during breaks and lunch. Only got up to Radical Highway. Here are my first impressions.

THE GOOD

S ranks actually are hard to get and count for something again.

Rolling works! You roll down a sloped hill and he doesn't stop rolling and even goes faster in some cases!

Classic Sonic feels more like his classic self than the HD versions.....until...(We'll mention later). This give me hope for Sonic 4-2.

Classic Sonic is as big if not bigger than the badniks this time. Much more to scale of the classic games.

The game starts out really good. Mainly because they are just stealing the Genesis levels in design.

The special stages are difficult in the later stages, but great! Much improved over the original Sonic Heores version. Only problem is it's hard to see the spikes just before they hit you. But such was the case in Sonic 2 as well.

The 3-D is fantastic! Deep background make the middle ground pop out which makes the foreground pop out. Much better 3-D than Shinobi.

The Bosses. Big Arms and Biolizard are pretty awesome with great music.

100 missions! Each give a special unlockable. Can't beat a mission? Buy the unlockable with your Streepass coins!

Online Multiplayer

THE GOOD OR BAD DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU STAND AS A FAN

This time Sonic arrives too early at the party and none of his friends outside of Tails who's setting up has arrived. so no Chaotix, Rouge, Blaze, Amy or Knuckles. Sadly, Shadow and Silver are still around as Rivals.

THE BAD

Now we get to the Dreamcast era and the game takes a huge downward spiral. Modern Sonic Teaches Classic the homing attack and you cannot choose not to use it. You are stuck with it for good. WHHHHYYYYY?!! Look, it's not that I hate the 2-D homing attack, it's just that it takes away what makes classic Sonic classic. I'm totally cool with it being a option, but not something permanent you can't get rid of.

Now that the game has to have a more original level design, the levels take a nose dive in quality. WTF?! This is not my DIMPS! Even Sonic 4 with it's odd physics had good level design. The Dreamcast Era gets the basics of Sonic level design down, but uses it in a bland way. It's just a few notches above Sonic Rivals in terms of game design.

Well, time to play through the rest. I hope it picks up cuz the Dreamcast era sucked.

The TSSZ review is pretty accurate to how I felt, apparently. I posted select quotes in this post.

Edit: Holy shit, I was way too nice to Generations 3DS looking back on these posts. I should really write something up now. D:
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
Giant Bomb are running through Windows 95 screensavers.

DAT 3D MAZE.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I remember using Windows 95 and thinking it was the coolest shit ever. And then getting Windows 98 Plus! and it was the bomb.

Damn, I go for one job interview and a ton of Lost World Media comes out. Can't wait to look through the videos.
I hope it went well~

I have to drop lurking mode to say that I regret paying more than 30 euros for Generations 3DS. Now I disappear again.
I paid full-price for it on Day 1. I know how that feels. Oh me, oh my.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
Okay, so no Generations 3DS. I should go see how much the console version is on Steam.
Don't forget that you can use mods with the PC version, too, which is where it really shines. We have a few PC version modders in this thread who'd love to share their stuff. If you enjoy the main game, you'll reap the full benefits of the game and the money you paid for it by looking into the different mods out there.
 

Heropon

Member
I paid full-price for it on Day 1. I know how that feels. Oh me, oh my.

I didn't bought it day 1 because it had the same price of a Wii game here. Why did they have to lower the price? WHY?

I bought the PC version day 1 and cheaper, so I feel that I've been scammed with the 3DS version...
 
Vanilla Dome is my favorite Mario world. Everything is so crystally and shiny. Plus the overworld theme rocks.

I remember way back in a magazine preview for Mario Golf Toadstool Tour being told that the putting music for a birdie putt was the vanilla dome theme and I got oddly hyped for this, then I got the game and to my disappointment it was just the SMB underground theme yet again.
This will always stick with me, basically what i'm saying is that the theme rocks.
Vanilla Fortress is one of the best water stages in any platformer, I will stand by this.

But my one true king of Mario map themes is Big Island. Now if we're basing best world off the levels within as we should then I'll have to get back to you.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
I didn't even realize that the GBA version of Vanilla Dome was linked.

Needs more bass and harder percussion.

Vanilla Fortress is one of the best water stages in any platformer, I will stand by this.
Whoa, now. We need to talk about underwater levels in platformers one of these days.

I think this generation's made some strides with two games that did some underwater platforming rather decently. >.>

I didn't bought it day 1 because it had the same price of a Wii game here. Why did they had to lower the price? WHY?

I bought the PC version day 1 and cheaper, so I feel that I've been scammed with the 3DS version...
Ouch. That sucks, Heropon. :(

Really ridiculous the 3DS version turned out the way it did. Though to it's credit, I'm surprised it turned out the way it did considering the final product was different from its E3 build six months before. Six. Months. Either way, I wouldn't really recommend it. I'd recommend Rush Adventure and Colours DS before it.
 
I'm always up for talking about my favourite underwater stages in platformers, I know i've got a bunch as ammo to dispel the myth that all underwater stages suck.

All this Generations 3DS talk is going to make me boot up my copy for a quick spin, possibly to relive the shocking Radical Highway stages for some masochistic reason.
 

BlackJace

Member
I remember way back in a magazine preview for Mario Golf Toadstool Tour being told that the putting music for a birdie putt was the vanilla dome theme and I got oddly hyped for this, then I got the game and to my disappointment it was just the SMB underground theme yet again.
This will always stick with me, basically what i'm saying is that the theme rocks.
Vanilla Fortress is one of the best water stages in any platformer, I will stand by this.

But my one true king of Mario map themes is Big Island. Now if we're basing best world off the levels within as we should then I'll have to get back to you.
I never found Vanilla Fortress...
I sucked at SMW actually.
I didn't even realize that the GBA version of Vanilla Dome was linked.

Eh, I didn't like that version actually. The GBA version has more soul IMO.
 
To be honest, Super Mario Land 2's soundtrack is the only pre-SM64 Mario game soundtrack I actually liked. I don't hate SMB3 or World's music, but it was always felt just kinda... there to me.
 
I never found Vanilla Fortress...
I sucked at SMW actually.
You have to go back, you must.

The main reason I found Vanilla Fortress back in the day was because I couldn't handle Kamek in the dome castle.

Eh, I didn't like that version actually. The GBA version has more soul IMO.

Now now BlackJace, you're a good man, I know this to be true but now you're just speaking loony talk, the GBA is a machine that takes great 16 bit themes and makes them worse by varying degrees *insert GBA Sonic 1 and DKC2 music links here*.
SMW and ALttP didn't suffer anywhere near as much as the above two but the lack of extra "oomph" in both soundtracks is noticeable.
 

CorvoSol

Member
The big mod for Generations PC being Project Unleashed, aka "we took the non-Werehog levels and shoved them into Generations".

Is it any good, though?

To be honest, Super Mario Land 2's soundtrack is the only pre-SM64 Mario game soundtrack I actually liked. I don't hate SMB3 or World's music, but it was always felt just kinda... there to me.

Confession: I don't like Mario 64. Like, it's okay, but it's easily my least favorite Mario game. I can't think of any Mario game, barring perhaps the Edutainment ones and SML1 that I would rather play Mario 64 instead of. Every time I see people act like Mario games post 64 are worse than it, I get confused.

I feel this way about Ocarina of Time, too, though I'll concede that there has been a considerable decline in items to get in Zelda games over the years.
 
Speaking of SMW vs. SMA2, I swear the overworld has slightly different notes in the GBA version. Kind of prefer it like that, too. If I wasn't working well overtime right now, I'd take the time to illustrate it for everyone else... Maybe later.

Valley of Bowser was mutilated, though.
 
Sounds like one of those many pipes led to a seedy bar on this occasion.

Confession: I don't like Mario 64. Like, it's okay, but it's easily my least favorite Mario game. I can't think of any Mario game, barring perhaps the Edutainment ones and SML1 that I would rather play Mario 64 instead of. Every time I see people act like Mario games post 64 are worse than it, I get confused.

I feel this way about Ocarina of Time, too, though I'll concede that there has been a considerable decline in items to get in Zelda games over the years.

This is a straight up one-two punch to old Owl here, Sunshine is totally worse than 64 though so the SM64 guys are partly onto something.
 
Confession: I don't like Mario 64. Like, it's okay, but it's easily my least favorite Mario game. I can't think of any Mario game, barring perhaps the Edutainment ones and SML1 that I would rather play Mario 64 instead of. Every time I see people act like Mario games post 64 are worse than it, I get confused.

I feel this way about Ocarina of Time, too, though I'll concede that there has been a considerable decline in items to get in Zelda games over the years.

I like Mario 64, but I've never actually beaten it. It's like that with nearly all 3D Mario games for me, with some reason. I get maybe halfway through, and then lose whatever motivation I have to continue.

I'm not the biggest fan of OoT either, but to be fair, I don't care for Zelda (sans Link's Awakening) in general. Though I might give the Oracle games a shot since they're supposedly similar to LA.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
Is it any good, though?

Confession: I don't like Mario 64. Like, it's okay, but it's easily my least favorite Mario game. I can't think of any Mario game, barring perhaps the Edutainment ones and SML1 that I would rather play Mario 64 instead of. Every time I see people act like Mario games post 64 are worse than it, I get confused.
It is. You can check the thread out here.

And eh. I played Super Mario 64 for the first time this year. It was ok. The games after it perform better outside of some of the collectathon stuff. It's nice to see where the 3D Mario stuff started, and nice to see which areas that it improved in.

I have a similar issue to Seven Force. Any Mario game post 64, I usually kinda force myself to get through. I do finish it, but it's not after a lot of rationalizing to myself that the experience is worth it in the long run.

I'm always up for talking about my favourite underwater stages in platformers, I know i've got a bunch as ammo to dispel the myth that all underwater stages suck.
We'll do it when I'm not hastily writing this Sonic Generations thing right now. D:
 

nns3d

Member
kinda ashamed to say I haven't actually played the N64 version of Mario 64, only the DS version. Liked it way more than Sunshine tho. Mario Galaxy >>>>
 
SMS may have...the worst final boss in an otherwise good video game I've ever played

That or the entire third act of Half-Life 1
I think the stage itself was much more offensive than the boss, Bowser in his goopy hot tub is better than the most blatant rush job stage in Mario history.

"Okay we don't have much time before we've got to rush this out in an attempt to save these flagging GC sales, so what have we made for this area so far? apparently just two types of blocky platforms, one with protruding spikes and one with fire, right we have no time to make anything else so scatter them around for half of this exciting corridor layout then shove in that mud boat from Noki Bay for the rest of it, the crap control will make it difficult enough to be final level worthy. We don't have time to put together some slick vertical platforming to climb the volcano interior so just take those cloud assets and rocket nozzle up that shit, no I don't care if it makes no sense visually!"

Though I might give the Seasons games a shot since they're supposedly similar to LA.
I've just reached Season's fifth dungeon, the overworld wishes it could touch the divinity of Link's Awakening.
This overworld is just not that fun to traverse, even with the warp points certain map areas are a pain to reach without going through some kind of rigmarole over and over.
One example, there's like an area of map, a wasteland filled with holes that can only be crossed on some flying bear thing, you have a flute to call it with but for some reason he won't answer in the area with the holes, so you have to leave on the west side of the wasteland back to the grassy area where you can actually summon the bear and then walk back into the hole filled area, WHY?

We'll do it when I'm not hastily writing this Sonic Generations thing right now. D:

The contract is sealed.
Oh there's a possibly biggish post incoming? maybe I'll stay up a bit longer.
 

qq more

Member
kinda ashamed to say I haven't actually played the N64 version of Mario 64, only the DS version. Liked it way more than Sunshine tho. Mario Galaxy >>>>

Play the 64 version! The DS version is so restrictive on freedom. I hated how they made each power up hat exclusive to a character. The N64 version doesn't do that (obviously since you're only playing as Mario) and everyone but Mario played awful.

Also I find it weird how Mario wasn't playable from the start... like wtf?
 

Village

Member
Play the 64 version! The DS version is so restrictive on freedom. I hated how they made each power up hat exclusive to a character. The N64 version doesn't do that (obviously since you're only playing as Mario) and everyone but Mario played awful.

Also I find it weird how Mario wasn't playable from the start... like wtf?

I personally like the DS version better.

But that is just me.

It would have been better with a joystick though
 

nns3d

Member
Play the 64 version! The DS version is so restrictive on freedom. I hated how they made each power up hat exclusive to a character. The N64 version doesn't do that (obviously since you're only playing as Mario) and everyone but Mario played awful.

Also I find it weird how Mario wasn't playable from the start... like wtf?

Yea I think Yoshi was the first playable character lol. I intend on playing it eventually :p My friend has a buttload of N64 games but I always end up playing Smash Bros. or F-Zero.
 

qq more

Member
I personally like the DS version better.

But that is just me.

It would have been better with a joystick though
I was pretty excited for the remake because I could play as Luigi and Wario! Was really disappointed with it. It's still worth a play, just felt Mario 64 was better. I think it would've been better if Mario was unlocked from the start and no one is excluded from the Metal/Flight/Invisible power ups.

As for the joystick, that problem is mostly solved if you play it on the 3DS. I tried it! Works pretty well.

Yea I think Yoshi was the first playable character lol. I intend on playing it eventually :p My friend has a buttload of N64 games but I always end up playing Smash Bros. or F-Zero.
N64 is a great system despite having a small library. Enjoy!
 
Yea I think Yoshi was the first playable character lol. I intend on playing it eventually :p My friend has a buttload of N64 games but I always end up playing Smash Bros. or F-Zero.

who can resist a bit of F Zero X?

Just played Generations 3DS Classic Radical Highway, the stage isn't bad in a traditional sense, it's just unusually bare, there's this one bit where you just run across an empty bridge taking in the not so nice scenery, very automated in the first half as well. Usually I like Night time city stages but the aesthetics of Radical Highway I just don't like and never have done.
Also bubble chains, this is why they gave classic homing attack, cheers.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
[Insert “Game Gear? Hahahahahaha!” in here because Lord Iizuka-sama said so - Sonic Generations 3DS]

Sonic Generations 3DS had a sub-par E3 showing, with poorly-designed levels, awkward gameplay in videos, and awful music. Because of poor first impressions, not a lot of people were anticipating the 3DS release of Generations. However, it’s a wonder how Dimps changed things around in six months to produce a markedly better product than what was being seen at trade shows. But taking those six months in mind, shortcomings must be accounted for.

It is certainly interesting playing the console version of Generations and then going to play the portable version of Generations. In the console version, although certain sections of levels were similar—though not the same—to the original incarnation to the level, the level designs themselves were rather original and adhered to the level tropes. There were new pieces to the levels to act as something that would wow the player, and it still fit into the level trope.

In the 3DS version, by contrast, arguably 5 level layouts were ripped completely from its original game. While some may find this to be a non-issue (and see it as a neat thing to see 2D levels realized in 3D), compared to the levels in the console version, it’s a little disappointing that Dimps didn’t seem to do much with the level trope or general design. However, when Dimps did do something somewhat original in terms of Emerald Coast and Radical Highway, the level design came up somewhat short, and frustrating at times.

The game is divided into three sections, like the console version: the Classic Era (Green Hill, Casino Night, Mushroom Hill), the Dreamcast Era (Emerald Coast, Radical Highway), and the Modern Era (Rush, Colours). Each Era is sectioned off by a boss fight and a Rival race. Rival races, against different Hedgehog adversaries in Metal Sonic, Shadow, and Silver, play out similarly to Sonic Rivals. The unfortunate thing is that the Rival races take place in stages which you’ve already been through, so they are racing you in game levels that they didn’t originate in. It feels like a missed opportunity. The bosses aren’t too bad. Some of them are more exciting than the console counterparts. The final boss itself is much better than the console counterpart and it’s something to look forward to in both more interesting gameplay and with the 3D turned on. It’s not a visual and audio mess like the console version was.

After finishing the Classic Era, Classic Sonic is taught the Homing Attack in order to stand up a little more handily to some of the post-Classic sequences starting with Sonic Adventure 1’s Emerald Coast, where the attack is used liberally. This becomes a permanent skill in Classic Sonic’s skillset, and it cannot be turned off like in the console version because it must be used in the level design in order to proceed. The levels are now built around the homing attack as opposed to being levels that Classic Sonic may progress in without the ease of the homing attack. It’s unfortunate that the HA has been used as a level design crutch in this manner. It’s even more of a disappointment because Generations 3DS’s incarnation of Classic Sonic is more accurate to the original character’s performance in terms of physics, movement, power, rolling, and jumping than the console counterpart. It’s just too bad that the levels weren’t designed around this more accurate Sonic as opposed to taking the easy way out and utilizing the Homing Attack at any point necessary to the design scheme that Dimps uses.

It’s even more unfortunate when you take into account that there isn’t much different between the two Sonics because the levels are generally in 2D. Thus, the only difference between the two is the Boost mechanic. Colours and (console) Generations had heavily discouraged boosting, requiring the player to use it at certain times or try to get through a section without using boost despite it being possible to do so. In this version, even if you don’t have as much boost supply in your meter, it seems as though you are actively encouraged to utilize the mechanic. There is no alternative way to get across an area without Air Boosting, or you’ll just get through the levels quickly because the level design seems to encourage it.

Radical Highway is perhaps the most disliked level in this game. I find the controls awkward in both acts with both characters. Inputs with the D-pad can sometimes be inaccurate. Sometimes you feel as though you need to press right or left, when in reality, you need to press up despite the camera pan indicating otherwise. This would end up costing the player a life, when the controls are being misinterpreted, or the level gives no indication to which direction the player must be pressing. Also, this is particularly where Dimps’s level design rears its ugly head in terms of adding boosters which kill your momentum, adding pits in arbitrary places which don’t fit into the level design or adequately well with the level’s pacing, and odd hazard placement. Orange warning signs are out in full-force, but as I’ve stated before, these are completely unnecessary when levels are designed well with good pacing. With all of that taken into account, though, the level itself feels bare, and sometimes automated. The level just feels like it's there for the sake of being there, with no quirks or memorable design for the player to realize why it's there.

With respect to Special Stages, they are designed after Sonic Heroes’ special stages, which open up after finishing both acts in a zone. Luckily, they feel better to control, but they aren’t difficult to complete.

You may unlock missions via finishing acts and zones, streetpassing others, or by using your Play Coins (5 per mission). If you don’t feel like playing the mission, you may use 5 additional Play Coins to unlock the reward for that mission. The missions are essentially Time Attack missions, collect x amount of rings in time, clear this act without defeating enemies, attack x amount of enemies in this time, etc. This is where the meat of Sonic Generations 3DS lies, for the game may only take 2-4 hours to beat.

Outside of that, Time Attacks/Time Trials can be uploaded online. Online Multiplayer and Local Multiplayer are races through stages and special stages (but your player adversary is indicated by an arrow onscreen). You can earn points through multiplayer for your player card or to unlock things. Truly, the game’s meat lies in the Missions and the multiplayer.

I would not purchase Sonic Generations 3DS at full retail price, especially given the level structure, control input issues, some level layouts being ripped from the original source, and the length of the game in general. Although Dimps had contributed one of the better-controlling (Classic) Sonic models in memory since the Genesis Era, they never built levels to facilitate that design and instead made the character play like the other character in the game with Boost being the only difference between the two. I would sooner recommend Sonic Rush Adventure (better level design) and Sonic Colours DS (powerup mechanics with platforming) over Generations 3DS because then you would get your money’s worth.

With that said, though, I’m still disappointed that Sega / Iizuka didn’t capitalize and take level inspirations from the SMS/GG and Advance games for level design concepts. It would have been amazing to see some of these concepts in 3D, and possibly better-designed. Again, it is truly too bad that this game was ironed out in 6-7 months after its E3 build, but considering this is the handheld iteration of Generation, I would have expected a game that tread through the history of the handheld Sonic games, good or bad. Sonic Generations 3DS, thus, feels like a massively wasted opportunity.​

Didn’t feel like I needed to go into visuals or music, because you’d probably know what I’d say already. The game looks great, and seeing some stuff originally in 2D now in 3D was fantastic to see. The music is fantastic, and I’ve already posted about the Sonic Generations album itself in the 2011 Soundtrack thread. I am absolutely thankful that they swapped the original E3 Big Arm theme for the one used in the game.
 
I think the stage itself was much more offensive than the boss, Bowser in his goopy hot tub is better than the most blatant rush job stage in Mario history.

"Okay we don't have much time before we've got to rush this out in an attempt to save these flagging GC sales, so what have we made for this area so far? apparently just two types of blocky platforms, one with protruding spikes and one with fire, right we have no time to make anything else so scatter them around for half of this exciting corridor layout then shove in that mud boat from Noki Bay for the rest of it, the crap control will make it difficult enough to be final level worthy. We don't have time to put together some slick vertical platforming to climb the volcano interior so just take those cloud assets and rocket nozzle up that shit, no I don't care if it makes no sense visually!"

I imagine a lot of these kinds of rushed development talks went down in creating some of those Gamecube games

"We're remaking OoT with a cartoony art style and sailing, and we're doing it in 24 months!"

"Scratch that, we're doing it in 20 months now! Throw out those dungeons, please."

"Good news and bad news, folks. Bad news is, we're doing the game in 18 months now! Good news, I just thought of an idea of how to pad out the end of the game!"

--

"Hey Retro, how's our favorite Western studio? Sooooo, we just looked at the old calendar here for the upcoming holiday season and we realized, 'Hey, PS2 has MGS3 and GTA: SA, Xbox has Halo 2, PC has Half-Life 2 and Doom 3...we should have a big exclusive of our own!' So, we'll gonna release Metroid Prime 2 by Nov. 15 of this year, how's that sound?"

"That's...that's three months away, I-I mean that's not enough time, we only 30% into completion, it's imposs-"

"30% away from completion! Sounds great, we're looking forward to it!"

--

That's why I always kinda laugh at this "aw yiss panic mode Nintendo is best Nintendo" mentality. Enjoy your quickly-made NSMBs and rushed first-party titles!
 

Kokonoe

Banned
I actually like those signs myself, although I know I'm the minority on that part. I don't even want to guess if a pit is going to kill me or not.

I also like not dying in one hit from being squished.
 
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