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Sonic the Hedgehog Community Thread: Green Hills and Laughing Iizukas

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Lindsay

Dot Hacked
What was wrong with Generations :O
2d Sonic felt way to fast and/or the screen far to zoomed in.
3d Sonic felt like it was on rails. Especially the rails themselves with the dinky baby mode push left/right to switch rails. Back in the SA2 and Heroes days rail switching was manual and slightly risky!

I know demos can be bad and it was just the first level but I wasn't feeling it.

Any character works because you aren't jumping to the maximum height to beat Silver Sonic. Silver Sonic is a breeze once you learn his pattern, and once you get it down, you'll be able to defeat him within 4 times of him moving to the left or right to rev up his spikes.

You also don't need to jump high against the Death Egg Robot either as the hitboxes are rather large on it's lower half.
I never beat him with Knuckles its just to hard! Maybe not never maybe once but bleh! I guess I just don't get hitboxes or whatever.
 
2d Sonic felt way to fast and/or the screen far to zoomed in.
3d Sonic felt like it was on rails. Especially the rails themselves with the dinky baby mode push left/right to switch rails. Back in the SA2 and Heroes days rail switching was manual and slightly risky!

I know demos can be bad and it was just the first level but I wasn't feeling it.

Yeah, the demo does a really, really bad job at shaking off the feeling of being on rails (Modern Sonic can actually beat it using nothing but the boost and jump buttons...)

The level design gets better afterwards, though. (Especially in the case of Sky Sanctuary)
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
Yeah, Green Hill Zone is not indicative of the entire game at all. That zone naturally had to be the demo level but it's a shame that it doesn't show off the better parts of Generations' mechanics and level designs. Plus you couldn't turn Omochao off, senpai. >:|

A lot of the Generations modern levels are some of the best in the modern games (ex: Sky Sanctuary, Speed Highway, Rooftop Run, Crisis City).

Plus the demos gave me nausea.
 
I like the homing attack. I think it's the best gameplay addition to the series since the Genesis titles. There's a tactile satisfaction of jumping in the air, seeing that lock-on, then hitting a button and flying into it. It explodes, and you bounce into the air, instantly ready to do it again to the next guy in a chain. It's not a skillful thing or anything, but the rhythmic, smooth cause-and-effect process of of a Homing Attack chain ALWAYS feels good.
 
I'm not even entirely convinced the Homing Attack is necessary in 3D. SRB2 gets by pretty well without it (instead having the "thok", which is like the Homing Attack when it can't home in on anything - just gives you a huge boost of speed instead). Of course, its level design and gameplay mechanics are more free-roaming-oriented, and using WASD+mouse means you can line your attacks up extremely easily. Even then, the enemies can be a bit small...

I also think making really large enemies would help in that. Easier to hit a large target than it is a small one, after all. Might be a bit out-of-place considering the earlier entries in the series, admittedly, but it'd be playable.

And it's wholly unnecessary in 2D. Its inclusion in Sonic 4 was dumb as hell.

SRB2 is also not a traditional Sonic game, nor is it even a traditional platformer, because SRB2 is made up entirely of flat planes. It has some "fake" slopes, but nothing like you'd get in Super Mario 64 or anything.

I also think controlling a platfomer with kbam is kind of silly and once you turn on analog mode in SRB2 the same problems with hitting enemies become evident. It's never impossible, of course, it just requires a lot more finesse and consideration than it does in 2D. With analog mode on, my preferred method of dispatching enemies is to spindash in to them.

Of course, you're also talking to the guy who, at first opportunity, made a SRB2 mod that enabled the homing attack across the entire game. A shame I started to go a little crazy with changes after that. I wonder if anyone's done that for a recent version of the game?
 
SRB2 is also not a traditional Sonic game, nor is it even a traditional platformer, because SRB2 is made up entirely of flat planes. It has some "fake" slopes, but nothing like you'd get in Super Mario 64 or anything.
SMB1 and SMB2 also lack slopes. Surely you're not suggesting they're not traditional platformers, too?

I also think controlling a platfomer with kbam is kind of silly and once you turn on analog mode in SRB2 the same problems with hitting enemies become evident. It's never impossible, of course, it just requires a lot more finesse and consideration than it does in 2D. With analog mode on, my preferred method of dispatching enemies is to spindash in to them.
I go with what gives me control. WASD+mouse gives me control. Analog mode does not give me nearly as much control, and frankly I've never been a fan of SRB2's interpretation. I don't see what's silly about it, though, if it works, and works well, then why not use it? Why opt for the suboptimal control scheme?

Of course, you're also talking to the guy who, at first opportunity, made a SRB2 mod that enabled the homing attack across the entire game. A shame I started to go a little crazy with changes after that. I wonder if anyone's done that for a recent version of the game?
Nope, nobody's expanded on that particular mod. D00D64-X did make this mod that required the homing attack, though, called "Dumbventure" (which, despite the name being fairly accurate - it's pretty dumb - is really well done).
 
SMB1 and SMB2 also lack slopes. Surely you're not suggesting they're not traditional platformers, too?

You're right; maybe I was too harsh. They certainly are not representative of modern platformers, though. Especially not modern 3D platformers, of the Super Mario 64 (or otherwise) mold. And certainly nothing like a real Sonic game, regardless of depth.

I go with what gives me control. WASD+mouse gives me control. Analog mode does not give me nearly as much control, and frankly I've never been a fan of SRB2's interpretation. I don't see what's silly about it, though, if it works, and works well, then why not use it? Why opt for the suboptimal control scheme?

It's the control scheme all modern 3D platformers adopt. Sonic is not a shooter (SRB2 multiplayer aside), so I don't see why I have to aim with a mouse. I want to play those kinds of games with a controller. I have a controller for the PC to play games like that specifically with, when a game that I perceive as trying to replicate a "console experience" does not support a gamepad, or is otherwise not best played with a gamepad, that is off-putting to me. Even shooters.

(spoilers: I own Borderlands on PC, but I still play the game with a gamepad, because that's how it feels like its been tuned to be played)

When I think of SRB2 in non-analog mode, all I can think of are early 3D games like Croc and Tomb Raider that had tank controls because Super Mario 64 hadn't come out yet and analog controllers were years off.

Nope, nobody's expanded on that particular mod. D00D64-X did make this mod that required the homing attack, though, called "Dumbventure" (which, despite the name being fairly accurate - it's pretty dumb - is really well done).

Well, I don't even mean expanded, I just mean a mod where somebody's ticked the "use homing attack and light dash" flag on every level in the game.

SASRB2 was going to have like, an Adventure Field and shit. I was the one who convinced SSNTails to make a cutscene editor and to allow levels to have multiple exits because I wanted them for SASRB2. In turn, I was to do textures for SRB2.

And then I didn't finish SASRB2 and did three whole textures for SRB2, but gave SSNTails the thumbs up when he asked if he could just include all of my SASRB2 textures in proper SRB2. If you see weirdly realistic textures along side the more cartoon-y textures, the realistic ones are from SASRB2.

I always felt like kind of a dick that things shook out that way. That seemed to happen a lot on SRB2. I remember the days when Stealth was working on SRB2...
 
I may be overreacting, but Crisis City modern was equally as shitty as the 2006 original. Horrendous level design. Hell, it might even be worse than 2006.

I'd say you were, it's a trickier stage to hit the better routes and it can be fiddly but I always felt it was one of the most enjoyable stages after a few runs, assuming you take the shortcut in the platform stomping section because that bit is weak.
It's one of the few modern stages that requires you to carefully place your jumps in a 3D space without the homing attack to save you, admittedly this is a tad clunky so it can go either way.
 

BlackJace

Member
I'd say you were, it's a trickier stage to hit the better routes and it can be fiddly but I always felt it was one of the most enjoyable stages after a few runs, assuming you take the shortcut in the platform stomping section because that bit is weak.
It's one of the few modern stages that requires you to carefully place your jumps in a 3D space without the homing attack to save you, admittedly this is a tad clunky so it can go either way.

It's the stomping section that's really bad. And the fire tornado is kinda clunky. I see what you mean, though.
 

Kokonoe

Banned
I may be overreacting, but Crisis City modern was equally as shitty as the 2006 original. Horrendous level design. Hell, it might even be worse than 2006.

It's one of the few levels in Sonic Generations that actually presents a challenge of not holding down the boost and rewards proper platforming. But worse than 2006 or even anywhere near it? I definitely don't agree, 2006 isn't something I'd compare to any Sonic game besides Shadow or Secret Rings.
 

BlackJace

Member
It's one of the few levels in Sonic Generations that actually presents a challenge of not holding down the boost and rewards proper platforming. But worse than 2006 or even anywhere near it? I definitely don't agree, 2006 isn't something I'd compare to any Sonic game besides Shadow or Secret Rings.

Eh, I guess half of my dislike for the stage comes from frustration. It seemed like as Gens went on, the level design suffered, with the exception of Rooftop Run. I wasn't impressed with Planet Wisp, Crisis City and Seaside Hill. They all looked great, and I didn't DISLIKE them (except for Crisis of course), I just wasn't as impressed as the earlier stages.
 

Kokonoe

Banned
Eh, I guess half of my dislike for the stage comes from frustration. It seemed like as Gens went on, the level design suffered, with the exception of Rooftop Run. I wasn't impressed with Planet Wisp, Crisis City and Seaside Hill. They all looked great, and I didn't DISLIKE them (except for Crisis of course), I just wasn't as impressed as the earlier stages.

For me it was actually quite the opposite. The more challenging the game got, the more fun I had. Although Sonic Generations wasn't really that challenging, the only level that gave me any real challenge was Planet Wisp, which I thought was a great last level.

Rooftop Run is fun, but it's relatively easy, like the first few levels in difficulty. I notice when I watch other people play Sonic Generations that aren't common with Modern Sonic, people tend to want to be able to fly through and boost at every opportunity without learning the control of Sonic because of how fun going fast is. Although it is because the game puts these obstacles in front of me to learn it's engine is a reason why I enjoy it, but I do enjoy just running through the more simple levels as well.

I'm referring to that the later levels change up the speed of going fast at every second to becoming more about overcoming the environment, but once you learn the game and shortcuts it becomes fast once again. It's rewarding.
 

BlackJace

Member
I agree, kinda like with Unleashed. When Sonic is maxed out, and you know all of the shortcuts, speedruns become really fun and rewarding.
 
Eh, I guess half of my dislike for the stage comes from frustration. It seemed like as Gens went on, the level design suffered, with the exception of Rooftop Run. I wasn't impressed with Planet Wisp, Crisis City and Seaside Hill. They all looked great, and I didn't DISLIKE them (except for Crisis of course), I just wasn't as impressed as the earlier stages.

Well in a moment of boredom if I were to rate them all...

Green Hill: Basic and boring but it's an introductory stage so I understand why, cleverly hidden route below the bridge at the end and great music but absolutely nothing to write home about.

Chemical Plant: Completely blows Green Hill Zone out of the murky purple water, great hidden routes, interesting extra challenge of avoiding the purple drink entirely, visually great especially towards the end when the place just starts blowing up for no real reason. Also the only stage with a skydiving section I think.

Sky Sanctuary: Arguably the best modern stage from a well rounded view, it offers some solid platforming and while the stage never truly diverges too much from the central path it has a few tucked away areas.

Speed Highway: lives up to its name, what it lacks in gimmicks it makes up for in running fast, a real time trial focused stage which completely eclipses the original zone, probably has the granddaddy of hidden routes in all modern stages, not that creative with platforming but it's speed highway and speed is kind of its thing.

City Escape: Bland, it's locked too much to the original stage concept, the boarding section is merely okay, the truck chase looks nice but is almost purely hold boost to win, horrible red ring positions that will make you hate the specific movements needed from modern Sonic's janky arse. The section in between the boarding and Gun Truck is quite possibly the most bland area in the game, open and empty. The Classic stage whomps this modern version.

Seaside Hill: Has a very different feel to most modern stages, gets pretty creative with the hidden routes and requires some more careful platforming to traverse them, Kart section is okay if not that remarkable. It lacks memorable moments but it's a very solid stage really.

Crisis City: the mixed bag, as I said earlier it actually puts in more emphasis on 3D platforming, probably the modern stage where you'll die the most, partly because it's genuinely trickier but also because it's a bit off in its design at times, the stomping section sort of sucks but it has some fun and frantic moments to offset that.

Rooftop Run: A stage where everything just comes together really well, whether it's better than the original Rooftop Run i'm not sure, very fast stage focused around one main route in particular with little opportunities to branch off so it isn't quite the best but it sure is a lot of fun, also God Tier Music. Could use more platforming I guess.

Plane Wisp: a great start in the visually splendid greenery leads into a bit of a lull as you hit the factory, not so fast paced in this one, traversing the spiralling central area isn't actually that bad at all and the section is well designed but it comes crashing down due to stage length and that the entire final section of rocket spam and lowering ceilings just feels like filler. Both Wisp stages suffer from poor wisp implementation, being too long and not quite grasping that Planet Wisp should be almost like a deforestation situation with the natural environment clashing with the factory as opposed to here's some trees and now machinery everywhere for the next 10 minutes.
 

Sciz

Member
Green Hill is the worst level.

Eh, I guess half of my dislike for the stage comes from frustration. It seemed like as Gens went on, the level design suffered, with the exception of Rooftop Run. I wasn't impressed with Planet Wisp, Crisis City and Seaside Hill. They all looked great, and I didn't DISLIKE them (except for Crisis of course), I just wasn't as impressed as the earlier stages.
:(
 

Kokonoe

Banned
The best part of Seaside Hill is where the game intends to make you think you're going to lose a life, but a Killer Whale out of nowhere bounces you to safety.
 

BlackJace

Member
Well if you must know, Chemical Plant, Sky Sanctuary, and Speed Highway are my favorites.
Sky Sanctuary classic was really, really well done.
 
Well if you must know, Chemical Plant, Sky Sanctuary, and Speed Highway are my favorites.
Sky Sanctuary classic was really, really well done.

Except for when I miss those bouncy clouds in the route above one of the checkpoints and fall into Marble Garden Zone, then it goes from being awesome into being irksome.
 
It's the control scheme all modern 3D platformers adopt. Sonic is not a shooter (SRB2 multiplayer aside), so I don't see why I have to aim with a mouse. I want to play those kinds of games with a controller. I have a controller for the PC to play games like that specifically with, when a game that I perceive as trying to replicate a "console experience" does not support a gamepad, or is otherwise not best played with a gamepad, that is off-putting to me. Even shooters.

(spoilers: I own Borderlands on PC, but I still play the game with a gamepad, because that's how it feels like its been tuned to be played)
Yes, I'd noticed you tended to complain about it when fangames don't support those. Can't say as I particularly care about the issue myself; I've grown up with PC gaming since the DOS era, so I'm more than capable of playing a platformer - particularly 2D ones - with the keyboard. 3D ones is a bit iffier, particularly if it makes actual usage of analog movement (ie: sneaking past sleeping Piranha Plants in Whomp's Fortress of Super Mario 64); however, actually needing analog movement is rare, while needing analog aiming (or at least camera movement) is common, and when it comes to aiming there is simply no substitute for a mouse.

Incidentally, you're talking to a guy who's started up a replay of Psychonauts on the PC, this time using KB&M as the control scheme. Despite the game having some of the worst mouse sensitivity I've ever seen.

When I think of SRB2 in non-analog mode, all I can think of are early 3D games like Croc and Tomb Raider that had tank controls because Super Mario 64 hadn't come out yet and analog controllers were years off.
The difference being that Croc and Tomb Raider have a fixed turning speed that is often too fast or too slow for a given situation, and - at least in Croc's case - don't have the camera snapped to your back so that you're always 100% certain of where you're headed. Playing SRB2 with a mouse solves the first issue handily - you can turn exactly the angle you need to with minimal over- or undershooting - and the camera is specifically set up to avert the latter. It's miles beyond those archaic cases.

Well, I don't even mean expanded, I just mean a mod where somebody's ticked the "use homing attack and light dash" flag on every level in the game.

SASRB2 was going to have like, an Adventure Field and shit. I was the one who convinced SSNTails to make a cutscene editor and to allow levels to have multiple exits because I wanted them for SASRB2. In turn, I was to do textures for SRB2.

And then I didn't finish SASRB2 and did three whole textures for SRB2, but gave SSNTails the thumbs up when he asked if he could just include all of my SASRB2 textures in proper SRB2. If you see weirdly realistic textures along side the more cartoon-y textures, the realistic ones are from SASRB2.

I always felt like kind of a dick that things shook out that way. That seemed to happen a lot on SRB2. I remember the days when Stealth was working on SRB2...
Yeah, I was lurking at the time you made SASRB2, so I recognized the textures off the bat.

I wish you'd convinced him to use the Hexen format, honestly. There are times where I really wish I could assign Things IDs, or had more flexibility over line actions, or could use the C-like scripting language ACS instead of, ugh, linedef executors. Plus it'd support hub levels, which are kind of like what you were looking for...

I suppose I could modify the code to support it, nowadays, seeing as I have 2.1's codebase at my fingertips, but I worry such a change (necessary or not) wouldn't be popular, and there'd be a lot of painful migration as people find that their 2.0 maps are suddenly incompatible due to the different level data structure - not long after 2.0 made their 1.09.4 maps incompatible. Arguably more trouble than it's worth, really.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
Here, I made a video for SonicGAF with the most simple way of doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evgJoImlNkg
Keep that up and it'll truly be the SonicGAF theme song.

Beef should be ashamed of himself proud.

I may be overreacting, but Crisis City modern was equally as shitty as the 2006 original. Horrendous level design. Hell, it might even be worse than 2006.
I think you are a bit.

No way. Nooooo way. Absolutely not. The 2006 one was really boring to go through, had inadequate level design, and the mach speed section was awful-awful. At least this one had better level design outside of the stompy bits and you had to put some effort into getting to the higher routes. Like you said, it's kinda like Unleashed in that when you learn the level it becomes really enjoyable to speedrun and S-rank.

Both the Classic and Modern versions are two of my favourite levels in that game.
 

BlackJace

Member
Keep that up and it'll truly be the SonicGAF theme song.

Beef should be ashamed of himself proud.


I think you are a bit.

No way. Nooooo way. Absolutely not. The 2006 one was really boring to go through, had inadequate level design, and the mach speed section was awful-awful. At least this one had better level design outside of the stompy bits and you had to put some effort into getting to the higher routes. Like you said, it's kinda like Unleashed in that when you learn the level it becomes really enjoyable to speedrun and S-rank.

Both the Classic and Modern versions are two of my favourite levels in that game.

carygrantgetout.gif

Haha yeah I explained myself earlier. Salty over the deaths and the stomping section.
 
The stomping portions were the only really wonky parts for me. Other than that, I found it enjoyable. Crisis City Classic definitely reigns supreme, though. I've always kind of wondered how they never came up with the idea for that signpost bit in earlier games.
 

Kokonoe

Banned
Keep that up and it'll truly be the SonicGAF theme song.

Beef should be ashamed of himself proud.

It seemed like the right thing to do, but Azure Dream experienced the full surprise, just according to keikaku.

Perhaps the SonicGAF theme could be a mixture of Hill Top Zone and Nocturne? Or perhaps that's a little too devious.

I am extremely proud.

Thank you, I couldn't have done it without your guidance.
 
It seemed like the right thing to do, but Azure Dream experienced the full surprise, just according to keikaku.

The next time someone posts a Sonic music or "Vote for your favorite soundtrack" topic in the main Gaming forum, I think we all know what we should vote for.
 

Kokonoe

Banned
Throw in a bit of Oil Desert Act 2 and you have a full-on
un
holy trinity.
I just did this, and I am afraid I will not release this to the general public for safety reasons.

Don't insult Hill Top Zone by placing it with dying ducks and however the hell one would describe Nocturne.

Well I actually do like Hill Top Zone's music, I'm merely referencing Schala's dislike for it.

The next time someone posts a Sonic music or "Vote for your favorite soundtrack" topic in the main Gaming forum, I think we all know what we should vote for.

I'll be there.
 
Somebody should take every track from Chronicles and play them at the same time. Get all the awful out at once.

The next time someone posts a ... "Vote for your favorite soundtrack" topic in the main Gaming forum, I think we all know what we should vote for.
Panzer Dragoon Saga?
 

qq more

Member
If you fight Beef, all of SonicGAF will annoyingly tell you what to do.


THAT LOOKS LIKE A HOMING SHOT
WATCH OUT SHADOW HOG
THAT LOOKS LIKE A HOMING SHOT
THAT LOOKS LIKE A HOMING SHOT
THAT LOOKS LIKE A HOMING SHOT
THAT LOOKS LIKE A HOMING SHOT
...
THAT LOOKS LIKE A HOMING SHOT
 
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