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Sonic the Hedgehog Community Thread |OT3 & Knuckles|

NathanS

Member
This is something that's been bothering me for the longest time and i have never found an at all satisfactory answer anywhere else.

What on earth do Sonic fans mean when they say "momentum based platforming" and often imply it's something at say Mario doesn't have? I would think any platformer in which your speed effects your jump and require you to build up to a run for some jumps or to race up hills would be momentum based platforming but it's often brought up as strange new thing Sonic invited.
 
This is something that's been bothering me for the longest time and i have never found an at all satisfactory answer anywhere else.

What on earth do Sonic fans mean when they say "momentum based platforming" and often imply it's something at say Mario doesn't have? I would think any platformer in which your speed effects your jump and require you to build up to a run for some jumps or to race up hills would be momentum based platforming but it's often brought up as strange new thing Sonic invited.

It's a bigger focus in Sonic, I guess. How fast or slow you're going can often affect which paths you can take and stuff.
 

Surta

Member
What on earth do Sonic fans mean when they say "momentum based platforming" and often imply it's something at say Mario doesn't have? I would think any platformer in which your speed effects your jump and require you to build up to a run for some jumps or to race up hills would be momentum based platforming but it's often brought up as strange new thing Sonic invited.

I think you mean invented. Yeah, I'm bothered by that phrase (momentum based platforming) as well, and even more when people say "Sonic is not about speed, it's about momentum". But that's probably due to my education in physics (speed, or more generally velocity, isn't really different from momentum as defined in physics; they're directly proportional... unless Sonic would reach relativistic speeds).

I think what people mean when they say those things are the "ball physics" of the original Sonic games, including inertia, the fact that you can run on walls and even ceilings with enough speed, the fact that slopes affect your jump angle and even jump height (in conjunction with Sonic's speed), the fact that Sonic bounces back to his starting height when hitting an item box or enemy (when keeping the jump button pressed), and other details like that.

And yeah, Mario games really don't have those things, not to the same extent. I don't know if Sonic games invented them, but they certainly made them popular and fun.
 

Dereck

Member
Right now, I'm trying to play Sonic 3 with Knuckles, and this dude is kind of wack.

No double tap A flash, no use of powers, I'm getting rolled up by the Hydrocity boss, playas.

I must be a Knuckles novice.
 

J@hranimo

Banned
Well one, Knuckles is hard mode for S3&K with varying level designs and slightly different bosses depending on the level. Two, he has a shorter jump and top speed that is slower than Sonic but faster than Tails. Three, he glides.

Once you get his strengths and the level designs it'll be fun :)
 

Dereck

Member
Marble Garden Zone to me always seemed kind of
25nxo3E.png


But it's not a bad stage.

That beat switch on Zone 2 doe!
maPSeW4.png


No final boss for Carnvial Night?

Well one, Knuckles is hard mode for S3&K with varying level designs and slightly different bosses depending on the level. Two, he has a shorter jump and top speed that is slower than Sonic but faster than Tails. Three, he glides.

Once you get his strengths and the level designs it'll be fun :)
I didn't realize this, all these years and I never played Sonic 3 as Knuckles
 

Falk

that puzzling face
Not trying to self-promote or nothing, but I was playing Unleashed today, and well...

Any ideas? Can't seem to replicate it.

For what it's worth, it looks like you boosted over the dash pads. The reason the low ceiling and dash pads are there is so that you'll more or less be guaranteed to hit it, which automates you into the 3D -> 2.5D trigger at a definite point.

You basically threaded the eye of the needle and went below the ceiling but over the dashpads, and did so at at angle so when you hit the 3D -> 2.5D trigger you were too far to the left since the dashpads didn't 'correct' your trajectory.
 
Well one, Knuckles is hard mode for S3&K with varying level designs and slightly different bosses depending on the level. Two, he has a shorter jump and top speed that is slower than Sonic but faster than Tails. Three, he glides.

Once you get his strengths and the level designs it'll be fun :)

Actually, Sonic, Tails and Knuckles all have the same acceleration/top speed.

https://info.sonicretro.org/SPG:Running#Character_Specific

Right from the Sonic Retro Physics Guide, which was built from decompiling the Genesis games back down to their raw source code.
 
This is something that's been bothering me for the longest time and i have never found an at all satisfactory answer anywhere else.

What on earth do Sonic fans mean when they say "momentum based platforming" and often imply it's something at say Mario doesn't have? I would think any platformer in which your speed effects your jump and require you to build up to a run for some jumps or to race up hills would be momentum based platforming but it's often brought up as strange new thing Sonic invited.
Well, yes, pretty much every platformer out there that differentiates between "walking" and "running" has some sort of momentum-based platforming, generally in the form of jumps that can only be made if you do them at full-speed.

The thing that's a little different with Sonic is the terrain directly influences how you jump - so, jumping at full speed when running up a 45° incline would potentially have you shooting off almost perpendicular to it, or doing so when running down would have a bit less effect. Not to mention, the steepness of slopes also factors a lot into getting up to top-speed quickly. I suppose this applies to Mario too (with SMB3-onward's hill-sliding mechanics), although it doesn't come into play nearly as often as it does in Sonic since Sonic stages roll around like skate parks more often than Mario stages tend to. And then there's how, if you have enough speed/velocity/momentum/whatever and the angle between the floor and a wall coming out of it is gentle enough, you can start running over all kinds of surfaces willy-nilly, as long as you kept up your momentum (since gravity would be working against you if you were running up a wall). I don't doubt other games had similar features (Super Mario World's triangle block or the Baby Mario segments from Yoshi's Island comes to mind), but they're usually limited to specific moments and aren't the basis of the entire game.

There's also how it ties into what passes for combat in this game. There's still the tried-and-true jumping on things when you're moving at a slower pace, but then there's the Spin Attack, which trades almost all control over yourself in exchange for even more momentum gain/loss and near-invincibility. It's a pretty inventive thing, really, letting you toy with the aforementioned slope physics even more (since your speed cap is significantly higher when you're rolling) with a bit more impunity (since you do damage to enemies while rolling, and thus will defeat them without taking any damage yourself), although not total impunity (since you can't control yourself as easily while rolling, so if you haven't learned the stage yet you'll potentially roll into spikes or something - this isn't as common as the series' detractors imply it is, but I'm sure it does occasionally happen).

The end result is something just a little different from the average platformer physics, and it's a niche that not very many games have really tackled. Closest I can think of are those Marble Blast games and similar. Freedom Planet, too, for fairly obvious reasons (directly using a Sonic fangame engine).
 

Psxphile

Member
Actually, Sonic, Tails and Knuckles all have the same acceleration/top speed.

https://info.sonicretro.org/SPG:Running#Character_Specific

Right from the Sonic Retro Physics Guide, which was built from decompiling the Genesis games back down to their raw source code.

I always thought Knuckles was slightly slower, too. He just feels... off compared to both Sonic and Tails. A tad sluggish. Since the game's code says different, I don't know what to attribute that feeling to.
 
I always thought Knuckles was slightly slower, too. He just feels... off compared to both Sonic and Tails. A tad sluggish. Since the game's code says different, I don't know what to attribute that feeling to.
Probably a placebo effect from not jumping as high and also slowing down when landing after a glide.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
That just happens sometimes with Unleashed. The collision detection misses you going in, but is really good about not letting you get out.

Maybe you had a little M-Speed after you launched off that booster.

For what it's worth, it looks like you boosted over the dash pads. The reason the low ceiling and dash pads are there is so that you'll more or less be guaranteed to hit it, which automates you into the 3D -> 2.5D trigger at a definite point.

You basically threaded the eye of the needle and went below the ceiling but over the dashpads, and did so at at angle so when you hit the 3D -> 2.5D trigger you were too far to the left since the dashpads didn't 'correct' your trajectory.

I guess my post isn't attention-grabbing enough because no picture? :(

dd2V8f6.png


It's ok I fixed it. Punishing the world by using comic sans too.

4tg8tJb.png
 

Village

Member
I've heard, but as soon as I figured out you had to roulette spin to get characters in that game I stopped. " Nope not falling down this psychological money hole" I can buy characters in sonic dash two glitchy or no. And when shadow comes or " darkness" as they call him in that hint, i'll buy him and i'll be fine.

But yeah I heard that update was bad, like banning players who were doing good because they thought they were cheating or some weird shit like that.
 

HUELEN10

Member
I guess my post isn't attention-grabbing enough because no picture? :(

dd2V8f6.png


It's ok I fixed it. Punishing the world by using comic sans too.

4tg8tJb.png

No no Falk, I've just been busy; thank you for the input!

I'll try to replicate it now, now that I know this. The only similar thing that I HAVE been able to do is get 3D sonic to go in the past 2D area of Windmill Isle act 2.


Also, just wanted to say to you all that I love ya guys.
 

Dereck

Member
For all these years, I've been spoiled by Sonic 3 Sonic.

Playing Sonic 3 with Knuckles is like playing Sonic 3 with Sonic 2 Sonic. I've died on bosses that I've never died on before just because I don't have Sonic's flash.

Not sure if Knuckles is inferior, or if Sonic is just buff.
ZHfRadF.png


And this song is incredible.

uMvkQzz.gif


Knuckles' version of Sonic 3 is like some brand new Sonic DLC to me, Launch Base and Ice Cap zone are brand new now, gotta get acclimated to these pathways.
 
Chances of the new Sonic game being revealed during PSX '15?

I don't think Sonic has that cache anymore. Hasn't for a long time. Unless Sony is personally involved in funding it and it's an exclusive like Street Fighter, but I have my doubts Sony would be willing to go in for something like that, given the stigma the franchise carries.
 
Well, I mean, Sega was trying to get in to bed with Sony back in 2009. There was a tentative deal that Sony would help fund Sonic Generations (then called Sonic Anniversary) in exchange for an exclusive special edition of the game with bonus features.

But obviously that deal never came to pass.
 
Would love to see something related at PSX, but I don't think it'll happen. Like others said, SEGA and Sony just aren't that close where it would happen.

Would it be possible for some Sonic news to come around during The Game Awards this Thursday? I know that a few people are revealing some new content for that. Or do you guys think it's just as unlikely as PSX?
 

Dereck

Member
Launch Base Zone seems like such an anomaly

The music is weird, the enemies, stage layout, slightly abnormal.

I feel like I want to explore Act 2 more.
 
Launch Base Zone seems like such an anomaly

The music is weird, the enemies, stage layout, slightly abnormal.

I feel like I want to explore Act 2 more.

There's still areas and routes in Act 2 that I've never been to, because fuck if I know how to get to them all. I love that level though.
 

BlackJace

Member
For a "final" level, LBZ was pretty chill and not that threatening. Same with Metropolis Zone to an extent (although Metropolis did ratchet up the difficultly randomly).
 
This is something that's been bothering me for the longest time and i have never found an at all satisfactory answer anywhere else.

What on earth do Sonic fans mean when they say "momentum based platforming" and often imply it's something at say Mario doesn't have? I would think any platformer in which your speed effects your jump and require you to build up to a run for some jumps or to race up hills would be momentum based platforming but it's often brought up as strange new thing Sonic invited.

I think you mean invented. Yeah, I'm bothered by that phrase (momentum based platforming) as well, and even more when people say "Sonic is not about speed, it's about momentum". But that's probably due to my education in physics (speed, or more generally velocity, isn't really different from momentum as defined in physics; they're directly proportional... unless Sonic would reach relativistic speeds).

I think what people mean when they say those things are the "ball physics" of the original Sonic games, including inertia, the fact that you can run on walls and even ceilings with enough speed, the fact that slopes affect your jump angle and even jump height (in conjunction with Sonic's speed), the fact that Sonic bounces back to his starting height when hitting an item box or enemy (when keeping the jump button pressed), and other details like that.

And yeah, Mario games really don't have those things, not to the same extent. I don't know if Sonic games invented them, but they certainly made them popular and fun.

I forgot to reply to this, but yes, it's basically the ball physics. But it's also a bit more than that, I guess.

Like, yes, Mario has momentum, but it's different. Mario has a specific run button to denote the "slow" and "fast" speeds, and he has a much higher rate of acceleration than Sonic does. It's also a much smoother acceleration curve.

Like, Mario has "gears" like a car. 1st gear (Walking), second gear (running), and third gear (arms spread out for flight). Sonic is like a car that's always in the highest gear. It takes him a while to build up speed, but when he gets there, he's moving pretty quickly.

Sonic's speed is further augmented by slopes, which Mario flat out ignores. In the Mario universe, slopes are for sliding down on your butt. For all but the most steepest inclines, slopes do not effect Mario's top speed or his acceleration in anyway. For Sonic, running down hill, and especially rolling down hill, have a great effect on his movement. One of the best ways to circumvent Sonic's relatively low acceleration is to find a decline and likewise, running up an incline is even slower than normal.

And, since Sonic is mostly invincible while rolled in to a ball, in some regard the goal of the game is to see how long you can stay in ball form, because that is an essential mechanic to maintaining your speed. You also divorce most or all control from Sonic while in ball form, too, outside of being able to jump out of the roll.

The characteristic definition of momentum is that an object in motion wants to stay in motion, which makes it easy to see how Sonic relates.

In general, Sonic has a "realistic" (relatively) implementation of momentum and slope interaction versus Mario.
 

Surta

Member
The characteristic definition of momentum is that an object in motion wants to stay in motion, which makes it easy to see how Sonic relates.
Nope, that's the definition of inertia (or the conservation of velocity or momentum), not momentum itself. See the Wikipedia link in my previous quote. Momentum is simply the product of mass and velocity. Sonic's mass can be assumed constant in classical (non-relativistic) physics. Ergo, momentum is directly proportional to velocity (the values are literally the same if we give Sonic a mass of 1 unit; the actual calculations in the 2D game engines operate on a 2D vector which can be interpreted as velocity or momentum, there is no difference apart from the unit, which is irrelevant there).

Anyway, nice explanation of the Mario physics and how they compare. I didn't remember if Mario's speed was affected by inclines/declines or not.
 

Sciz

Member
I wish I knew who drew that one, because it's ten times better than anything that was showing up in the actual stories of the time.
 
I wish I knew who drew that one, because it's ten times better than anything that was showing up in the actual stories of the time.

It's not his typical art style, but it could be early Spaz, while he was still feeling his style out. Some of his first art for Sonic was more cartoony than the pseudo-3D stuff he ended up getting in to before going all manga.

64031-11074-97028-1-sonic-the-hedgehog.jpg


That's a big shot in the dark, though
 
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