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Sonic the Hedgehog Community Thread |OT3 & Knuckles|

Razzer

Member
Thanks guys, really appreciated :) I found conflicted info on some of the sites so that's really helpful.

Honestly though, are there many people who consider Sonic 2 better than 3? Because thus far I'm actually leaning more towards Sonic 2 being superior...

How far in are you? A lot of people hold the opinion that 3&K>2>3. Once you've finished the & knuckles portion of the game you may think differently, the end game is amazing.
 
I think so, yes. It is more difficult to control.

I consider that Super Mario World is probably the pinnacle of 2D platformer movement. It is tight and responsive.

By giving these characters more momentum, they are deliberately making the controls more loose and difficult to get a handle on. Why shouldn't that be seen as objectively worse? Especially in the context of being able to directly compare to previous games in the franchise.

Give me your copy of SMW with the tight play controls like SMB3, I mustve missed that one
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
How far in are you? A lot of people hold the opinion that 3&K>2>3. Once you've finished the & knuckles portion of the game you may think differently, the end game is amazing.
And if you're like me, you'll constantly switch depending on how you feel. There are times when I'm absolutely enamoured with Sonic CD too despite some of it's weird weird level design. That's more to do with the art and music, though.

The thing about Sonic 3&K is that it had art and music and "dialogue-less scenes". It told a story without giving the player text, did it fast enough to keep the player moving, and some of the animations spoke volumes. It had multiple characters for you to play through as, and if you did everything right with respect gathering all Chaos Emeralds, the final boss for each character is different. Sonic3&K has a breadth and depth of content, one of the more decent special stages in the series, and more spectacle than its predecessors. Its final, final Sonic boss tends to be of the style over substance sort of thing, but that's something we've come to know the Sonic games (at least some of their final bosses) for at times.

Then there are other times when I like Sonic 2 more because it's the game I learned how to speedrun. Level design in that game had more variety and colour than its predecessor (and arguably more player-friendly), and some obviously focused on speed (Chemical Plant) while others were slower-paced (Metropolis).

I think they're both excellent games when all is said and done. That's why I constantly switch. There are certainly things that one does better than the other.

---

OH SPEAKING OF PLATFORMING. I'd said that the final dungeon in FF13-2 had butt platforming. Lightning Returns has one dungeon that encourages the physics-less platforming in the game and you have to deal with respawning if you decide to fall off in some areas (and you kinda have to since there are some treasures you want to get and the paths are divided enough that you have to fall off and retrace) and you have to deal with periodic HP sap (which wouldn't be fun if you had substantially lower HP than I did) and some of the platforms disappear after a while so you've gotta do it fast while reorienting yourself to factor in that Lightning has no physics and some of the areas where you want to platform aren't as apparent because of the lack of lighting in the game and you still have to deal with the game's in-game clock while not using the Time Stop spell to ration time (since I tried doing this before the game recalled me back to the game's hub and my time for the day ran out) because you need all of that stuff for the boss battle up ahead instead.

Like...

Fucking why? Who sat down, didn't realize the character had no lift and momentum, decided to put regenerating enemies there that you should probably run from (btw you have a sprint meter have fun with that), forgot that the game barely has lighting, made narrow areas for you to platform on (above another floor of an area where if you fell down, enemies would respawn and you should probably reorient quickly and run from them because fighting can be a waste of the player's time), made backtracking kinda dumb where I had to backtrack to the first room in the dungeon instead of being there in the hallway before the boss, made some of the platforms quick to disappear (which was a problem in just two areas cuz I wanted a spell and opening treasure takes time to animate), and so on?

See, I thought the time door dungeon was going to be the worst one (ie: doors open and close every in-game hour), but this is just plain bad. Lightning has no momentum in her jumps and her jumps are weird enough that you can probably fall down to another floor while trying to reorient the camera for more precise platforming as you probably would in an AC game or maybe another platformer. I know qq more and Noi watched me experiment with the platforming a bit in the demo when I streamed it once and they had a laugh, so it's certainly not my imagination.

It's not hard by any means because I was smart enough to leave this part of the game to last, but it's just... annoying? I feel like it's an inconvenience. Especially to other players who may not be as successful. What if I did this dungeon earlier? I would be more critical of it because I'd have less HP. What if I had no experience with the platforming genre? What if those "hey maybe I can jump on that" instincts didn't set in with me and I was stuck there for a few in-game hours wasting time? What if I didn't realize that in those battles that I sometimes accidentally run into it'd be more beneficial to use Tier 1+ spells instead of Tier-3 since they animate faster and cost less so battles would be done faster? What if I didn't realize that backtracking to the first room in the entire dungeon would allow me to a) get out and restock items, and b) there would be someone to teleport me to the area boss in the first room of the dungeon out of convenience? I'm getting flashbacks to Tower of Babel in Xenogears, and at least in this dungeon I'm not getting encounters mid-air.

When you construct a dungeon in a video game, there are a lot of "what if" scenarios that you have to probably take into account. What if the player did this? Should I make backtracking easier? How frequent should encounters be? How powerful should enemies be? How should the map be drawn? Which areas could and should the player go into? I feel like some of these dungeons (esp. Time Door and this platforming dungeon) were just there because they wanted to make use of some of the mechanics afforded to the player, but it wasn't thought through enough.

I remember when I was younger, I wanted this company to do a Final Fantasy platformer. I... no longer want them to do a platformer. This is crap. Even FF7-FFX-2's "press a button to jump/climb and we'll do it auto for you" wasn't as bad.

Rant over. I've wanted to bitch about that at length since last night, lol.
 
One of the main reasons I dislike SMW because the loose play controls compared to the NES games. There's a definite difference there, and I'm not a fan. On top of it being a piss easy aimless keyhunt with mechanics the game never asks you to learn(and break the game when you do).

Also, complaining about momentum in a Sonic the Hedgehog thread is uhhhhhhhh
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
One of the main reasons I dislike SMW because the loose play controls compared to the NES games. There's a definite difference there, and I'm not a fan. On top of it being a piss easy aimless keyhunt with mechanics the game never asks you to learn(and break the game when you do).

Also, complaining about momentum in a Sonic the Hedgehog thread is uhhhhhhhh
LOL. At least Sonic has physics, period. The RPG character doesn't. That's the thing. It's platforming without any sort of physics at all and it feels awkward as hell. Especially since the game has ok platforming with a hover jump when you're riding the bird that's an excuse for a Yoshi in another area. Why is it so inconsistent?

And to add, I felt that way about SMW too with respect to controls, I guess. I like how the NES games feel better, too. But I somewhat attributed that to just having way more time spent with the NES games (almost down to playing SMB3 like every week before swimming practice), and not having spent a lot of time with SMW until I got my own SNES and a copy of it much later on. I've actually never played either game back-to-back to note how I feel about it, but they do feel different.

I dunno. There's something about SMB3 that I just like more but I can't put my finger on exactly what. I almost want to say that it comes down to the level styling.

With that said, Blaze kinda has a point with respect to NSMB vs SMW. Granted, NSMB is supposed to take after SMB1 vs other games anyway...
 
I need to seek out context for that janktacular sounding Lightning Returns platforming, it sounds hilariously horrible but I guess you wont know true terror unless you control it yourself.

JC ruined SMW for me, true story, sort of.
Anyway the idea that other Mario titles control objectively worse than SMW is kinda silly, its a design decision in either case.
I had a whole post of mechanics shit typed up but I couldn't really get the words out correctly, currently my mind is full of Kong.
When it comes down to it I think you need to be able to draw out some kind of satisfaction from both the controls and the characters response to inputs and actions. What you prefer is ultimately going to vary between people depending on if they say like the idea of wrestling a bit for control with momentum to factor in or want something more immediately exact to their inputs. It's up to the game itself to leverage these various control styles to their advantage with the level design. Of course sometimes the mechanics are just unsatisfying from the get go and level design can't really save it even if they try their hardest (poor Sackboy) but among big name platformers I don't find this too common.
I used to prefer the SMW style but a few years ago I noticed my preference had shifted to SMB3 and console NSMB style, specifying console because I love that little air spin.
 

qq more

Member
I always personally felt that SMW has the tightest controls in the series. Incredibly easy to control and feels like I have more freedom with air control. Not a fan of NSMB's physics as it is too slow/floaty, I mean it's playable and it works, but kind of feels sluggish at the same time.
 
One of the main reasons I dislike SMW because the loose play controls compared to the NES games. There's a definite difference there, and I'm not a fan. On top of it being a piss easy aimless keyhunt with mechanics the game never asks you to learn(and break the game when you do).

Also, complaining about momentum in a Sonic the Hedgehog thread is uhhhhhhhh

I do not think it is a controversial statement to say that Mario has tighter controls than Sonic, at least as far as the 16bit era went.

Like, I guess Sonic controlled fine, but it's also different styles of level design. Sonic's momentum is a tool, the momentum in NSMB is just there to make jumps more difficult because you can't double back as easily.
 

Sciz

Member
Like, I guess Sonic controlled fine, but it's also different styles of level design. Sonic's momentum is a tool, the momentum in NSMB is just there to make jumps more difficult because you can't double back as easily.

There are all manner of jumps in the NSMBs (and DKCR) that can only be achieved with sufficient momentum. They reward skill and mastery far more so than any of their predecessors.
 
Like, I'm playing TF's hidden levels right now, and you have to really be on the ball with the nuances of the mechanics. The short hop, the long jump, the timing of enemy "bop" heights, etc. They ask far more from you than SMW ever does.

The controls are "different", but I don't that makes them objectively "inferior". Unless Mario just objectively controls "better" than Sonic/DK because...I can double back on platforms? k
 

qq more

Member
I don't think any controls should be considered objectively better/worse, I think it's all subjective. I think it's cool that everyone has their own taste on controls. Controls from SMW are perfect for me while controls from SMB3 are perfect for others!
 

Anth0ny

Member
I don't know what definition of loose/tight/heavy you guys are using, but I didn't like how Mario controlled in the NSMB games is because he felt "floaty". Super Mario World Mario is 2D Mario controlled to perfection. Just the perfect weight for the character. Deviate too much from that, and you get floaty NSMB Mario.

DKCR has the same problem to a lesser extent. Playing through TF now, DK has more weight than NSMB Mario, which is a good thing.

To stay on topic, I think Sonic in 1-3 and CD was close to platforming perfection as well. That character felt right. Which is why I can't handle Sonic 4, Advance 2, Rush and the other 2D Sonics that fuck with that perfection.

Sonic 2 > 3

World > SMB3
 
There are all manner of jumps in the NSMBs (and DKCR) that can only be achieved with sufficient momentum. They reward skill and mastery far more so than any of their predecessors.

They also reward frustrating the heck out of me because whoops I timed my jump wrong and the air control's too crap for me to course correct

And while you can say that, I've never encountered any jumps where it felt like that type of momentum was explicitly necessary. I breezed through NSMB DS and forced myself up to World 7-4 or 7-5 of NSMB Wii.

The latter of which I alternated between being bored to tears and blind with rage. And most of the rage-inducing moments weren't intentionally difficult, they were just clumsy feeling because of the way the controls are set up.

Edit:
I don't know what definition of loose/tight/heavy you guys are using, but I didn't like how Mario controlled in the NSMB games is because he felt "floaty". Super Mario World Mario is 2D Mario controlled to perfection. Just the perfect weight for the character. Deviate too much from that, and you get floaty NSMB Mario.

DKCR has the same problem to a lesser extent. Playing through TF now, DK has more weight than NSMB Mario, which is a good thing.

To stay on topic, I think Sonic in 1-3 and CD was close to platforming perfection as well. That character felt right. Which is why I can't handle Sonic 4, Advance 2, Rush and the other 2D Sonics that fuck with that perfection.

Sonic 2 > 3

World > SMB3

To me, "heavy" is defined as a low value of acceleration. The rate in which a character's pixels-per-frame velocity increases or decreases. This effects everything from how long it takes you to reach top speed, how long it takes you to slow back down again, and how long it takes you to turn around and start moving in the opposite direction.

In SMB3 and SMW, Mario had fairly snappy acceleration that made him feel easy to control. It was made noticeably more sluggish in NSMB, and I feel like that's a significant step back.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
I need to seek out context for that janktacular sounding Lightning Returns platforming, it sounds hilariously horrible but I guess you wont know true terror unless you control it yourself.
Lightning Returns has a fucking sprint meter and a jump button and the two are never ever put together to make one cohesive thing. It does platforming but at the same time it doesn't do platforming. It has a P-meter and it doesn't use it! *dies*

Like, I'm legitimately annoyed that this game can't make up its mind as to what it wants to be. It's so inconsistent that I want to replay something, anything that's actually consistent and something that I'm overly familiar with. I feel like I can't do this plat. But I want to do it because it'll give me closure and I'd be done with the Lightning games forever.

I had a whole post of mechanics shit typed up but I couldn't really get the words out correctly, currently my mind is full of Kong.
People almost sold me on this game last night.

Watch me get it next week because I'm ever-so-curious to see if it's better than DKCR or if it's paced better than DKCR.

When it comes down to it I think you need to be able to draw out some kind of satisfaction from both the controls and the characters response to inputs and actions. What you prefer is ultimately going to vary between people depending on if they say like the idea of wrestling a bit for control with momentum to factor in or want something more immediately exact to their inputs. It's up to the game itself to leverage these various control styles to their advantage with the level design. Of course sometimes the mechanics are just unsatisfying from the get go and level design can't really save it even if they try their hardest (poor Sackboy) but among big name platformers I don't find this too common.
I used to prefer the SMW style but a few years ago I noticed my preference had shifted to SMB3 and console NSMB style, specifying console because I love that little air spin.
I think this is a good take-home message. Based on their experiences, people are going to feel entirely differently with respect to how they want something to control with respect to momentum or how a character moves entirely. Some people hold Mario as the gold standard of platforming while other people don't. But at the same time, how platforming controls or how fast you move can depend on the level design. It depends. Is the game designed around how the character moves? Or is the character designed around how the game is designed and how the levels are designed?

I think that's why, for instance, we always have this discussion with respect to movement/playstyle in the Sonic series, too. I mean, the discussion isn't so rampant in this thread, but it exists.

Man, I need to finish NSMBU. That way I can say something about the NSMB games outside of saying, "I like the powerups, I like spin jump, but I don't think I like how Mario feels in it."
 

Anth0ny

Member
Man, I need to finish NSMBU. That way I can say something about the NSMB games outside of saying, "I like the powerups, I like spin jump, but I don't think I like how Mario feels in it."

That's a pretty fair assessment. I don't think finishing any of the games will necessarily change that lol

New 2D Mario games with NES/SNES physics would be great. I'm kinda expecting them to drop a new 2D Mario without the "New" name on 3DS and Wii U just so they can get around their "Only one NSMB per platform" rule.

They probably won't change up the physics, though...
 

Sciz

Member
I don't think any controls should be considered objectively better/worse, I think it's all subjective. I think it's cool that everyone has their own taste on controls. Controls from SMW are perfect for me while controls from SMB3 are perfect for others!

Control physics aren't inherently good or bad, it's entirely up to how they play within the level design. SMW's physics play great within SMW and would be awful in an NSMB. See also: Sonic Rush, Sonic 4

They also reward frustrating the heck out of me because whoops I timed my jump wrong and the air control's too crap for me to course correct

Well... yeah. Mistakes should be punished. And even then, DKCR and the console NSMBs still provide mechanics for mid-air course correction, they're just more limited so you don't come to rely on them all the time.

And while you can say that, I've never encountered any jumps where it felt like that type of momentum was explicitly necessary. I breezed through NSMB DS and forced myself up to World 7-4 or 7-5 of NSMB Wii.

NSMB DS isn't designed very well in any regard, and no, you can certainly stumble through all of them at a walk. NSMBW and especially U, though, are absolutely designed around providing the player non-obvious ways to blitz through the levels at a run.

SMW is a wonderful game, but relatively little of it is designed around tight platforming challenges. It's a much more relaxed game that wants the player to experiment and find things and see how they interact with one another.
 
SMB3 Mario was too heavy in the air. Felt like he had an anchor tied to him after he jumped. Probably why he looked so fat in his sprite. SMW Mario is perfection.
 

Tizoc

Member
So Nintendo sent me a code for getting Super Mario 1 GBC ver.
I can't change the button mappings.
Really Nintendo? I want to punch whoever worked on porting this, along with the smartasses who didn't consider to add such an option.
...but maybe I missed it since I'm typing this while feeling sleepy. There really is a way right? Right?!

Fuck's sake SEGA games can have their buttons remapped, is this supposed to be fucking quantum mechanics or some shit?

Sorry for the rant, but majority of platformers/games I've played had the lower button (in 3DS' case B button) be the Jump button.
Heck Ys 3 on PSP lets you re-assign buttons but I'm fine with O being the Jump button.

For that matter Ys 3 is my first Ys game and I am liking it. Adel Gets-shit-done Christen is my new hero.
 

PKrockin

Member
I think so, yes. It is more difficult to control.

I consider that Super Mario World is probably the pinnacle of 2D platformer movement. It is tight and responsive.

By giving these characters more momentum, they are deliberately making the controls more loose and difficult to get a handle on. Why shouldn't that be seen as objectively worse? Especially in the context of being able to directly compare to previous games in the franchise.

Yes, they're deliberately making the controls harder to master because you actually have to manage momentum. That doesn't make it worse. SMB3 is mostly about pure platforming challenges, SMW adds in more on exploration and simple puzzle solving relatively speaking. More difficult, momentum-heavy controls for SMB3 is just as good and appropriate as forgiving controls for SMW.

I'm not the type of person to think that any kind of restriction on the player's ability is automatically, objectively bad. That's silliness. It depends on how the rest of the game is designed and what your personal taste is.
 
Well... yeah. Mistakes should be punished. And even then, DKCR and the console NSMBs still provide mechanics for mid-air course correction, they're just more limited so you don't come to rely on them all the time.

But then it's the fault of the game, isn't it? Like, that's the holy grail of game design and difficulty balancing; that the player feels like failure is their fault, not the game's fault.

If the game is putting silly limits on how much I can course-correct and save myself from death, then it's not my fault. I am pushing against the limitations of control and the game is pushing back at me, saying "No, no. You die now."

It's not 1989 anymore. Games can, and should, and used to, control better than that.
 

PKrockin

Member
But then it's the fault of the game, isn't it? Like, that's the holy grail of game design and difficulty balancing; that the player feels like failure is their fault, not the game's fault.

If the game is putting silly limits on how much I can course-correct and save myself from death, then it's not my fault. I am pushing against the limitations of control and the game is pushing back at me, saying "No, no. You die now."

It's not 1989 anymore. Games can, and should, control better than that.

Mmm. Okay. So you're the type of person who can't handle any kind of player limitation. That's too bad. Personally I can enjoy how NES Castlevania's controls forced you to focus and carefully calculate your movements as much as how later Castlevania's controls allowed you to backtrack and explore the enormous castles in a much more efficient and stylish way.
 

Sciz

Member
But then it's the fault of the game, isn't it? Like, that's the holy grail of game design and difficulty balancing; that the player feels like failure is their fault, not the game's fault.

It's the fault of the game if it's actually being unfair about it, but I'm honestly not sure what you're running up against in these games such that the controls feel inadequate. LJN titles and Dimps games, those have legitimate "the game designers are morons" problems. 2D Mario? I'm baffled. The worst sin they commit is occasionally being dull, not malicious. The tools provided fit the problem, and that you get a saving throw at all is a gift.
 
It's the fault of the game if it's actually being unfair about it, but I'm honestly not sure what you're running up against in these games such that the controls feel inadequate. LJN titles and Dimps games, those have legitimate "the game designers are morons" problems. 2D Mario? I'm baffled. The worst sin they commit is occasionally being dull, not malicious. The tools provided fit the problem, and that you get a saving throw at all is a gift.

See, now here's the weird thing I've noticed.

I rail against NSMB for making some poor decisions and suddenly people start branding me like I hate all 2D Mario games, or all Mario games period. It really does feel a whole hell of a lot like "How DARE you insult the INFALLIBLE MARIO?!"

With the exception of Super Mario Sunshine, I've loved every Mario platformer I've ever played. Galaxy is probably in my top 10, I just gave Super Mario 3D Land "best portable" in my GOTY video. I am not a person with a vendetta.

But NSMB feels clumsy compared to its predecessors. SMW and to a lesser extent SMB3 were games on my "replay once a year" list for like, a decade. I have every pixel of SMW burned in to my skull. How anyone could view NSMB as better for giving you less control absolutely baffles me.

Mario was about accessibility, wasn't it? Why would less accessibility be viewed as a plus? Especially in something as blatantly fundamental as control; look at Super Meat Boy. Control is not where that game's challenge factor laid.
 

PKrockin

Member
See, now here's the weird thing I've noticed.

I rail against NSMB for making some poor decisions and suddenly people start branding me like I hate all 2D Mario games, or all Mario games period. It really does feel a whole hell of a lot like "How DARE you insult the INFALLIBLE MARIO?!"

With the exception of Super Mario Sunshine, I've loved every Mario platformer I've ever played. Galaxy is probably in my top 10, I just gave Super Mario 3D Land "best portable" in my GOTY video. I am not a person with a vendetta.

But NSMB feels clumsy compared to its predecessors. SMW and to a lesser extent SMB3 were games on my "replay once a year" list for like, a decade. I have every pixel of SMW burned in to my skull. How anyone could view NSMB as better for giving you less control absolutely baffles me.

Mario was about accessibility, wasn't it? Why would less accessibility be viewed as a plus? Especially in something as blatantly fundamental as control; look at Super Meat Boy. Control is not where that game's challenge factor laid.
Who and where are people implying this? In the post you quoted Sciz is talking about the controls. At least that's how I inferred it to be based on the first and last sentence.
 

PKrockin

Member
That's a pretty general statement. And as you might infer, it's not the first time I've gone through something like this.

It is when you take it out of context, yeah. In fact "2D Mario? I'm baffled." taken just by itself is almost meaningless. But now I'm derailing things.
 

Sciz

Member
See, now here's the weird thing I've noticed.

I rail against NSMB for making some poor decisions and suddenly people start branding me like I hate all 2D Mario games, or all Mario games period. It really does feel a whole hell of a lot like "How DARE you insult the INFALLIBLE MARIO?!"

Hardcore Nintendo fans are a frightening lot. I've got no issues with criticizing the games, it just legitimately surprises me when the controls come up as an issue. Like, you go back to SMB1 and that game is stiff as hell compared to everything else in the series, but it still plays just fine because the game's designed around it. Loosening it up would break it.

But NSMB feels clumsy compared to its predecessors. SMW and to a lesser extent SMB3 were games on my "replay once a year" list for like, a decade. I have every pixel of SMW burned in to my skull. How anyone could view NSMB as better for giving you less control absolutely baffles me.

It isn't better, it's different. For all their similarities, those three games are all going in different directions, and their disparate aims all bore different gameplay wrinkles.

Mario was about accessibility, wasn't it? Why would less accessibility be viewed as a plus? Especially in something as blatantly fundamental as control; look at Super Meat Boy. Control is not where that game's challenge factor laid.

What makes Mario accessible is that it is controllable with only two buttons (and for many people who don't dare run, only one) and understandable at a glance. People can grasp controls with nuance so long as the inputs themselves are simple (see also: Wii Sports, Flappy Bird).
 
Also this whole conversation is sabotaging the entire point of me making a video about this
Fvz9bMk.gif
 

Razzer

Member
I realize I'm late on this, but I thought I'd chip in on one thing blaze said, that it's the games fault not the players if you die because you couldn't course correct. In games that have momentum based controls, the challenge comes from managing your speed/momentum properly so that you don't need to course correct mid-air. They give a little leeway, but for the most part if you needed to change direction mid air then in the designers eyes you failed the jump. And that's the player's fault, not the game's. Not all jumping provides the same challenge to the player, after all. The difference is more palatable when it's a different series, which is why you take it for granted in something like Sonic, as it was part of the marketing campaign. But if the designers of a series (Mario in this case) decide they want to take a different direction that's still acceptable. Not every game in a series needs to follow the same model. Certainly you can have favourites amongst those models, but none are objectively better or worse than the others, which is I think what Sciz was saying.
 

BlackJace

Member
Actually... 2013 never happened, this is actually 2013 but late. That's why they're gonna make SAGEXPO 2014 Act 2 later this year!

Wuuuut, that's embarrassing for me. For some reason I was remembering us talking about 2013 in the last OT.

Nevertheless, I'll give your impressions a good read.
 

qq more

Member
Wuuuut, that's embarrassing for me. For some reason I was remembering us talking about 2013 in the last OT.

Nevertheless, I'll give your impressions a good read.

Yeah we've planned to have an OT for 2013, but that event never happened and they literally announced it for 2014 at the end of the last year.


I just finished the remake of Sonic 1 (8-bit). I'll write up the impressions soon!
 

qq more

Member
Game: Sonic The Hedgehog Game Gear/Master System Remake
Link to Booth: http://sagexpo.org/games/sonic-the-hedgehog-game-gearmaster-system-remake-2/


As the title suggests, it's a remake of the first 8-bit Sonic The Hedgehog game done in 16-bit SEGA Genesis style. The controls and physics plays more like the Genesis counterpart, you even the Spindash and Super Peel-Out! (However there is an option to disable both options if you really want to stick with the original gameplay of the game as much as you want.)

And unlike the original game, the remake includes more playable characters such as Tails and Knuckles! You can even add one of them as a secondary character and mix things up like playing as a combination of Knuckles & Sonic or Tails & Knuckles! It seems there's going to be 2 characters in the future since I've noticed improper (both uses the same Sonic sprite) silhouettes, I guess we'll find out who they are in the upcoming SAGE 2014 Act 2 demo. (I'm guessing one of them is Amy Rose?)

There are only 2 levels in the demo which are Green Hill and Bridge Zone. However, the level design is where I feel the game kind of falls flat. There are two modes such as "Classic" and "Remix". "Classic" offers the level design that's much more like the original whereas "Remix" features major changes to the original level layout.

"Classic" works as advertised but with some noticeable minor differences. All of the location of the Chaos Emeralds from the original game are replaced with Giant Rings (which takes you to a Bonus Stage where its purpose is just farming up rings and 1ups). You can however still get Chaos Emeralds by beating the level with 50 rings and enter the End Level's Special Stage Ring (just like the Genesis version). But my actual complaint about this mode is that the sometimes chunks of the levels aren't quite big enough to fit with the 16-bit engine. The original game naturally has smaller maps due to the tiny sprite style it got going for it. With this game, they're using the bigger Genesis style, you can easily skip over chunks of the levels due the disproportioned size changes.

"Remix" mode offers the same levels as Classic but with noticeable differences such as loop-de-loops (which were not featured in the 8-bit game), new starting paths, changed object placement and more. Not to mention Act 3 is entirely rebuilt as a full featured act with a boss at the end! Personally, I feel that this mode could've been much more to be quite honest. I was hoping the designs of Act 1 and 2 were entirely new (while keeping the level's core concept) and made with the 16-bit Gameplay in mind. Since both the 8-bit and 16-bit games has very different design philosophies in both gameplay and level design, I feel this was a wasted opportunity to have a proper remake of Bridge Zone designed as a Sega Genesis stage (with much more complex stage layout, multiple paths and whatnot).

Visually, I feel the game is a mixed bag. A lot of the assets are directly from the Genesis game, but then you have assets ripped directly from the 8bit game, which causes weird visual clashing. For an example, in Bridge Zone, majority of the assets are remade in Genesis style (since this game wasn't featured in the 16bit game), but then there's 8-bit sprites of the anvil gimmick. I also feel that the fan-made assets are unpolished, some of them look rather very empty or lacks some detail overall.

Overall, it's a decent fangame despite my complaints. I had some fun with it, but I feel there is so much potential with it. As of now, it's a tad underwhelming and needs more work and polish. I'd give it a 6/10, it's not bad but not that good either.

that was a mouthful

I'll write my reviews shorter next time because I don't have the patience to write huge posts like this for every single game (and there's a lot I plan to play)
 

Nvzman

Member
So before Ground Zeroes comes out, I decided I was going to do my fill of MGS.
So which Metal Gear Solid should I play first, SanicGAF? Metal Gear Solid 2 or 3?
Which one has the better story?
 

qq more

Member
Game: Salom Adventure
Booth: http://sagexpo.org/games/salom-adventure/

I... I don't know what to say. I've been met with nothing but confusion and frustration.

Well before I do go on about that, I'll describe the premise of the game. You play as 4 hedgehogs. Sonic (of course!), Shadow and then their Sol Dimension counterparts such as Blaze... er wait, sorry, she isn't in this! Instead you're playing as Original The Character Salom The Hedgehog and Vermin the Hedgehog. Yeah.

The game starts you off in a beach hub. The game doesn't clearly tell you where to go, so naturally I went to the right and found myself in a city. Wanting to play the first zone, I was lost and had no idea where to go to do that. So not knowing where to go I went to one of the random buildings and ended up playing a test level. Erm, yeah. Later I found out that to play the first (I think?) zone, you go to the left area of the Beach. ...I wish the game explained this better. It clearly lacks any sense of direction. The most frustrating part about the hub world though is the stupid (actually fake) loading screens that goes between each level and area. And they last a bit too long (like 5 seconds each). Why did they added fake loading screens? I do not know either!

Onto the gameplay, it physics are decent and whatnot but um... The controls are a whole different story. For whatever reason, the game assumes you're playing with the 360 controller (despite playing it on a keyboard) and the button prompts shows the 360 controller's button input icons. So yeah, you even get stuff like "LB" and "RB" buttons that's only in a 360 controller. The game also throws you into Sonic Unleashed-sytle QTEs that even has the nerve to have you press those 2 very buttons (LB and RB) too. What the hell do I have to press in place of LB and RB on the keyboard?? The readme tells me NOTHING, so I have to make some stupid guesses. And the worst part is that I HAVE to complete the QTE or I'll fall into a pit and die. The game is literally unwinnable because I am not using a 360 controller. What the heck?

In fact, I even checked options to see if I can change the prompt icons and to my surprise I actually can... but there's only one other option and it's the "PS3" controller. So yeah, the creator is obviously capable enough to have it so the button prompt can change its icon to either the 360 or PS3 buttons but apparently not enough to include KEYBOARD buttons.

Outside of the controller issue, the level design in the game is very bland with nothing interesting to offer. The level design is flat and very linear with you constantly grinding rails and homing attack chain enemies to get to the next room. There's also random cutscenes (such as a jet shooting down a helicopter I'm holding on) with no gameplay at all. The game just favors too much with style over (the lack of) substance.

There are also issues where the level gives poor cues to players on what to do. There's some instances of that in Radical Highway such as the part where there are signs pointing down and I'm hitting a boost pad into a narrow path. I thought the signs were trying to tell me to roll (since you obviously press down to roll while running), but that didn't work. Many tries later I finally realized the game has a slide button and did that instead. Honestly, IDK why rolling shouldn't work when he fits through that hole with that easily. I've stopped around the miniboss where I'm suppose to be fighting the G.U.N. fighter jet but I'm trapped between an invisible wall and a wall of starbumpers. There is absolutely no hints or anything on what I'm suppose to be doing.

I might go back to the game later and revise this review in case it actually gets better, but right now the game frustrates me to no end and I don't feel motivated to go back at the moment. As of now, it's a 3/10 game.
 

TheOGB

Banned
Dude's name is Vermin...?
.....

So before Ground Zeroes comes out, I decided I was going to do my fill of MGS.
So which Metal Gear Solid should I play first, SanicGAF? Metal Gear Solid 2 or 3?
Which one has the better story?
3 is more relevant to Ground Zeroes than 2, story wise.
 

Tizoc

Member
So before Ground Zeroes comes out, I decided I was going to do my fill of MGS.
So which Metal Gear Solid should I play first, SanicGAF? Metal Gear Solid 2 or 3?
Which one has the better story?

Play them in order:
MGS1
MGS2
MGS3
MGS4
Peace Walker HD

Also I can't get into Super Mario World nor Yoshi's Island. I get one or two worlds in, then I lose any motivation or interest to continue.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
Yeah we've planned to have an OT for 2013, but that event never happened and they literally announced it for 2014 at the end of the last year.
Let me know when you get to Sonic Chrono Adventure. They're having this at a time when I don't have a lot of time to myself. Should've done it last week. :p

But yeah, they seem to be going back to the 2x per year format which is a good. Too bad your Emerald Ties team isn't part of it again.

Also this whole conversation is sabotaging the entire point of me making a video about this
Fvz9bMk.gif
Hahaha. Poor Blazey-Blaze. At least you can go more in-depth here than you could on twitter, eh?

So before Ground Zeroes comes out, I decided I was going to do my fill of MGS.
So which Metal Gear Solid should I play first, SanicGAF? Metal Gear Solid 2 or 3?
Which one has the better story?
iirc, 3's more relevant to GZ, so if you really wanted to catch up for GZ, go with 3. 2's not a bad game, though.

something something sonic lost world
I'm still confused about that game, but eh. It's weird. I don't feel motivated to go back to that game even for the DLC right now even though the DLC is apparently decent? I saw Blaze stream it and it seemed okay. A way to farm lives, anyway.

The game list for Summer Games Done Quick 2014 has been released. Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Unleashed(Day Stages only) and Tails Adventure are in!
Shame it's just Day stages for Unleashed.

Zelda stuff and inclusion of NiGHTS and 3D World makes me grin like an idiot, though.
 
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