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[Bryank75]

For the list of games released nearly half of the games you mentioned were either ports to the ps4 or pc. Japan Studios is nearly dead. The other portion was them assisting other studios to make games. Am I suppose to be impressed by this. A big gripe folks had at the start of the last generation was all of the ps3 ports to ps4 at the start. Like did you look at what they released after your list. Ports to ps4, ports to pc, assisting other studios, and nearly dead to dead studios. I think the only one to throw me off was London Studio and that is only because I'm not into singstar or vr. Sure Sony has great 1st party studios and many of the 2nd party studios ventured off into going more multiplat last gen.

They are playing the long game with video games. Of course the investment is going to take some time to recoup. I wouldn't be surprised if it took the whole gen for them to do so. It took them nearly a whole gen to get their studios and xbox brand at a decent state and half that is because of bc and gamepass. We all know that first party has been Microsoft's weakness when it come to xbox and now they have supposedly fixed it.

Yeah, that is xbox biggest weakness is those markets but right now what they need to focus on is Europe and making sure all of the Japanese games comes to xbox.


I would just like to say I don't think that the PS5 is going to be utterly crushed this gen. I'm not saying PS5 is doomed. I'm saying that Sony's actions seem to be very relaxed after their win last gen. I doubt they would have purchased Insomniac if Microsoft hadn't scared them in to doing so. Them expanding their studios is fairly normal thing to do. Studios get bigger over time and it takes more developers to make these big detailed open worlds. My opinion is that these studios should have doubled or tripled in size since it was taking so long to make games anyways.

They bought Insomniac because they had just made a VR game for Facebook and FB wanted to buy them..... FB then bought Ready at Dawn when Insomniac decided to go with Sony.
Absolutely nothing to do with Xbox, completely unrelated. They had to move or Insomniac would be off the table.

Xbox doesn't have a hope in Europe, just to be real with you...

Here are the latest sales from Spain;

España Cifras de consolas: · PlayStation 5 - 10.850 unidades (8050 version lector de discos, 2800 version digital) ·Nintendo Switch - 4400 unidades ·PS4 - 1000 unidades ·Xbox Series S - 575 unidades ·Xbox Series X - 400 unidades ·Xbox One - 100 unidades

 

[plasmawave]

Why are people talking about Sony buying Sega? Any rumors? Is it wednesday?

 

[Bryank75]

Why are people talking about Sony buying Sega? Any rumors? Is it wednesday?

Nearly!

 

[yurinka]

For the list of games released nearly half of the games you mentioned were either ports to the ps4 or pc. Japan Studios is nearly dead. The other portion was them assisting other studios to make games. Am I suppose to be impressed by this. A big gripe folks had at the start of the last generation was all of the ps3 ports to ps4 at the start. Like did you look at what they released after your list. Ports to ps4, ports to pc, assisting other studios, and nearly dead to dead studios. I think the only one to throw me off was London Studio and that is only because I'm not into singstar or vr. Sure Sony has great 1st party studios and many of the 2nd party studios ventured off into going more multiplat last gen.

Bullshit, they made more brand new games this generation than MS and Nintendo. Sure, they did ports and what? Like the other ones. This time they had to make PS3 to PS4 remasters because there was no BC, and now are making some ports because it's their first PC game for these studios so have to adapt their engines, workflow and many other things. You always would complain. If they make VR, because they make VR. If they don't, because they don't. If they make ports, because they make them. If not, because they don't. If they help other studios to make minor games intead of doing them themselves because of that. If they were the ones making them, it would be because they waste time in these games instead of in the big ones.

You mentioned making 2 brand new games in a generation as something bad and I shown you it isn't true. Then, tell me how many studios from Microsoft and Nintendo released more than 2 brand new games this generation not counting ports and so on?

They are playing the long game with video games. Of course the investment is going to take some time to recoup. I wouldn't be surprised if it took the whole gen for them to do so. It took them nearly a whole gen to get their studios and xbox brand at a decent state and half that is because of bc and gamepass.

It will take them almost a generation to have all these devs publishing their first next gen (console) exclusive games. This gen they won't recoup the costs of the acquisitions and won't recoup all the money they are losing for giving away AAA games and paying all these publishers and devs for compensating the games they won't sell for including their games on Game Pass day one.

Yeah, that is xbox biggest weakness is those markets but right now what they need to focus on is Europe and making sure all of the Japanese games comes to xbox.

They will never succed in Japan, and doesn't make to try it now that its console market is decreasing. They should chase Europe, but first the should start by trying something easier: to get back USA and UK, countries where they once were market leaders.

I would just like to say I don't think that the PS5 is going to be utterly crushed this gen.

Sure, it won't. It will continue breaking gaming history records and outselling PS4 as the best selling console ever launch aligned.

Instead of looking at PS5, before that Series X|S first will have to focus on making sure they perform better than XBO instead of selling worse. And if they end achieving that, then they will need to try to outsell the 360 to become the best selling Xbox console ever. If they ever achieve that, and it's a big if, then they will be on the position of selling like a PlayStation console and who knows if in position of competing against the best selling ones: the PS4 and PS5.

But as of now, it's just a guess. We don't know how they plan to turn Gamepass into something profitable in the future, we don't know how do they plan to recoup their investments if they continue giving away AAA games, both exclusive and multi day one on GP. The amount of people who subscribed GP is only a PR stunt as of now, as of now it doesn't generate a great business for them and doesn't sell consoles.

If the horizon we have the promise of great studios they bought. Games that may end being a turd of GaaS infested of lootboxes and microtransactions, and AAA games where they sliced the game into several paid DLC portions with only the first one included on GP. We'll see how they manage it and let's hope it isn't another 'power of the cloud', another Mylo, another Kinect tracking fingers and 3D scanning skateboards.

Why are people talking about Sony buying Sega? Any rumors? Is it wednesday?

No, people is just bored.

 

[NahaNago]

Bullshit, they made more brand new games this generation than MS and Nintendo. Sure, they did ports and what? Like the other ones. This time they had to make PS3 to PS4 remasters because there was no BC, and now are making some ports because it's their first PC game for these studios so have to adapt their engines, workflow and many other things. You always would complain. If they make VR, because they make VR. If they don't, because they don't. If they make ports, because they make them. If not, because they don't. If they help other studios to make minor games intead of doing them themselves because of that. If they were the ones making them, it would be because they waste time in these games instead of in the big ones.

You mentioned making 2 brand new games in a generation as something bad and I shown you it isn't true. Then, tell me how many studios from Microsoft and Nintendo released more than 2 brand new games this generation not counting ports and so on?

and? i expect them to make more games than MS and Nintendo for last gen. They had more studios than them. My issue with ports whether they be from ps3 to ps4 or pc is that they are simply just old games being moved to another platform and not a new game. So they barely count when you have Microsoft's bc and their love of putting games on pc and xbox one day one. For vr , I'm just not interested in it since I don't have one. I will say that they if they really want to push vr then they should be making much larger games to hype and push the device and buying or building some studios to actually support the platform

It will take them almost a generation to have all these devs publishing their first next gen (console) exclusive games. This gen they won't recoup the costs of the acquisitions and won't recoup all the money they are losing for giving away AAA games and paying all these publishers and devs for compensating the games they won't sell for including their games on Game Pass day one.

This is why they are pushing game pass so hard once they have those subscription numbers up into the dozens of millions and folks then in a few years they will have recouped the money. I don't expect a quick fix but a lot of marketing for gamepass in any Microsoft show.

They will never succed in Japan, and doesn't make to try it now that its console market is decreasing. They should chase Europe, but first the should start by trying something easier: to get back USA and UK, countries where they once were market leaders.


Sure, it won't. It will continue breaking gaming history records and outselling PS4 as the best selling console ever launch aligned.

Instead of looking at PS5, before that Series X|S first will have to focus on making sure they perform better than XBO instead of selling worse. And if they end achieving that, then they will need to try to outsell the 360 to become the best selling Xbox console ever. If they ever achieve that, and it's a big if, then they will be on the position of selling like a PlayStation console and who knows if in position of competing against the best selling ones: the PS4 and PS5.

But as of now, it's just a guess. We don't know how they plan to turn Gamepass into something profitable in the future, we don't know how do they plan to recoup their investments if they continue giving away AAA games, both exclusive and multi day one on GP. The amount of people who subscribed GP is only a PR stunt as of now, as of now it doesn't generate a great business for them and doesn't sell consoles.

If the horizon we have the promise of great studios they bought. Games that may end being a turd of GaaS infested of lootboxes and microtransactions, and AAA games where they sliced the game into several paid DLC portions with only the first one included on GP. We'll see how they manage it and let's hope it isn't another 'power of the cloud', another Mylo, another Kinect tracking fingers and 3D scanning skateboards.

Console sales are simply the bonus now and gamepass is the true enemy that Sony needs to deal with. You see this in Microsoft's push to put xbox games on pc and push game pass on pc as well as console. So what if Sony sales 130 million consoles if Microsoft has 60 million or more gamepass subscribers every month from pc and consoles.

For the horizon of gamepass it is all a matter of how far they plan on pursuing this netflix type subscription and how much they are willing to lose. We've already seen that they are willing to spend 7 billion on it and they know they won't be getting that money back any time soon. All of those gaas , dlc portions, and microtransactions nonsense were already getting already without game pass so why wouldn't they add it to game pass games as well.

 

[Heisenberg007]

They are playing the long game with video games. Of course the investment is going to take some time to recoup. I wouldn't be surprised if it took the whole gen for them to do so. It took them nearly a whole gen to get their studios and xbox brand at a decent state and half that is because of bc and gamepass. We all know that first party has been Microsoft's weakness when it come to xbox and now they have supposedly fixed it.

So just to clarify, you meant to say that Microsoft will win the race, not that it (always) wins the race?

Re Bethesda, I doubt they will be able to recover anything substantial this gen. It's going to take 10-20 years to have that incremental profit from Bethesda properties, considering the actual cost of development will be in addition to $7.5B. And there won't be the PlayStation platform to sell games on, it will take longer.

 

[NahaNago]

So just to clarify, you meant to say that Microsoft will win the race, not that it (always) wins the race?

Re Bethesda, I doubt they will be able to recover anything substantial this gen. It's going to take 10-20 years to have that incremental profit from Bethesda properties, considering the actual cost of development will be in addition to $7.5B. And there won't be the PlayStation platform to sell games on, it will take longer.

I'm saying that Microsoft seems to have the ability to win the race eventually. Not this year, next year, or even the year after but eventually, unless Sony changes things up. Sony has tons of fans that will support them but even with Microsoft messing things up so badly last gen Microsoft still sold like I think around 60 million consoles. What happens when Microsoft actually does things right. They already have bc locked down, cheap digital console, powerful console?, tons more studios, and gamepass plus they haven't messed up the pr/ marketing for xbox this gen so far.

I agree that I doubt they will be able to recover completely the money from the Bethesda purchase this gen. But you also have to remember though how many people will jump on to xbox or game pass because of Doom, quake, or Elder scrolls.

 

[lh032]

I'm saying that Microsoft seems to have the ability to win the race eventually. Not this year, next year, or even the year after but eventually, unless Sony changes things up. Sony has tons of fans that will support them but even with Microsoft messing things up so badly last gen Microsoft still sold like I think around 60 million consoles. What happens when Microsoft actually does things right. They already have bc locked down, cheap digital console, powerful console?, tons more studios, and gamepass plus they haven't messed up the pr/ marketing for xbox this gen so far.

I agree that I doubt they will be able to recover completely the money from the Bethesda purchase this gen. But you also have to remember though how many people will jump on to xbox or game pass because of Doom, quake, or Elder scrolls.

you are assuming Sony will just sit there and do nothing, i mean it still a long year ahead, anything can happen. If Sony is desperate enough they may do a merger who knows lol

 

[NahaNago]

you are assuming Sony will just sit there and do nothing, i mean it still a long year ahead, anything can happen. If Sony is desperate enough they may do a merger who knows lol

I'm sure Sony will do something. The thing is it takes time to make games more like 3 to 4 years these days so if they are going to do something for this gen they need to either start trying to do it this year or next in order for it to make it before this gen ends. I am expecting them to put many of their ps5 games on pc before this gen ends.

 

[Heisenberg007]

I'm sure Sony will do something. The thing is it takes time to make games more like 3 to 4 years these days so if they are going to do something for this gen they need to either start trying to do it this year or next in order for it to make it before this gen ends. I am expecting them to put many of their ps5 games on pc before this gen ends.

Sony has already grown their top teams significantly, and they are all producing additional games that will start releasing in the next few years: Insomniac has 3-4 teams, ND is working on 3 games now, SSM is working on at least 2 games, GG is working on at least 2 games. There is a new studio in SD.

So in terms of first-party output, they have already made the necessary decisions. There may come further acquisitions down the road, which may bolster the output even more, as hinted in the financial reports.

 

[lh032]

Nearly!

i hope so, Sony need some serious firepower now.

 

[NahaNago]

Sony has already grown their top teams significantly, and they are all producing additional games that will start releasing in the next few years: Insomniac has 3-4 teams, ND is working on 3 games now, SSM is working on at least 2 games, GG is working on at least 2 games. There is a new studio in SD.

So in terms of first-party output, they have already made the necessary decisions. There may come further acquisitions down the road, which may bolster the output even more, as hinted in the financial reports.

Most of your studios sound about right. Insomniac is a beast. ND released 2 new games last gen so 2 games this gen , and I'm guessing you are adding the multiplayer game portion of tlou2 as a game. SSM's output last gen was quality but only one game so 2 games if nothing goes wrong sounds about right. GG should be able to knock out 2 ps5 games excluding horizon sequel due to expansions. SP released 2 full games last gen and they will probably do the same this gen as well. Even with the growths of the studios the number of future releases you mentioned would be similar to the output of last gen.

The biggest change would be all of Insomniac's games releasing on ps5. On the acquisition front everyone seems to be expecting Blue Point so that is okay but not exactly exciting. I honestly don't really expect them to acquire anyone else. I'd honestly be down if they did one shocking AAA acquistion and the rest were indies.

 

[yurinka]

and? i expect them to make more games than MS and Nintendo for last gen. They had more studios than them. My issue with ports whether they be from ps3 to ps4 or pc is that they are simply just old games being moved to another platform and not a new game. So they barely count when you have Microsoft's bc and their love of putting games on pc and xbox one day one. For vr , I'm just not interested in it since I don't have one. I will say that they if they really want to push vr then they should be making much larger games to hype and push the device and buying or building some studios to actually support the platform

Due to crazy Ken stuff proper PS3 BC or emulation wasn't possible in PS4 and even in todays high-end PCs. So they had to remaster the main games for the new players. Consideing it also meant a big change for engines and so on, they did use these remasters to adapt their engines for the next gen, something that also helped to reduce the cost of the first brand new sequel of the games because the cost of these engine and tools adaptation was made for the remaster and not for the new game.

Console sales are simply the bonus now and gamepass is the true enemy that Sony needs to deal with. You see this in Microsoft's push to put xbox games on pc and push game pass on pc as well as console. So what if Sony sales 130 million consoles if Microsoft has 60 million or more gamepass subscribers every month from pc and consoles.

-27% of the PS revenue is from consoles sold
-55% of the PS revenue is from (mostly 3rd party) console game sales (which depend on consoles sold)
-11% from online subscriptions (which mostly depend on consoles sold)
-7% from accesories (which depend on consoles sold)

The revenue from consoles sold alone is a big chunk of the money they make, but most of their revenue sources (I think mobile games and PC PSNow are the only exceptions) depend on consoles sold.

Regarding the case of Sony with 130 million consoles, it's more or less the case now with PS4+PS5 sales: they make way more revenue and profit than MS game division with the current. GP reaching 60M would mean that maybe they would slightly pass the current amount of subscribers Sony has (Plus+Now), which is around 50M. But in MS case would be with many people having paid only $1 instead of full subscription and sacrificing a lot of game sales plus tons of millions paid to devs to compensate for putting their games on GP, and sacrificing game sales, plus sacrificing console sales because their games being day one on PC too.

The overrall picture of 130M Sony consoles vs 60M GP subscribers would mean that very likely MS game division would make less revenue and profits than Sony currently does. And Sony's game division sales and revenue has a long term growth that won't stop now:

So once GP hits 60M subscribers they may be close to the current Sony numbers, but Sony numbers will be way higher once GP hits 60M if they achive them, that I think will be the case. But I also think that once they achieve 60M GP subs, the combination of Gold+GP subs will continue to be smaller than Plus+Now subs because they will also grow.

Sony isn't worried about GP, and won't be worried once it hits 60M subs. The overall PS strategy performs way better and seems will continue doing so. They will only continue tweaking Now and Plus as already planned (like putting PS Now on mobile/tablets/tvs, increasing its resolution and image quality, expanding to more countries, tweaking the business model and catalog, etc) because they have areas of improvement specially considering next gen logical steps, but won't be putting there all their exclusives + some multi AAA games day one.

For the horizon of gamepass it is all a matter of how far they plan on pursuing this netflix type subscription and how much they are willing to lose. We've already seen that they are willing to spend 7 billion on it and they know they won't be getting that money back any time soon. All of those gaas , dlc portions, and microtransactions nonsense were already getting already without game pass so why wouldn't they add it to game pass games as well.

Remember they also made more recent acquisitions like Minecraft and so on. In the recent years they spend over 10B on acquisitions. On top of that they also pay the publishers the estimated amount of money they won't earn in sales due to including these games on GP. It's a lot of money invested until now. Not sure how far they will go, but I think they will continue with it at least 3-4 years more. Maybe in 2023-2024 once all their new studios released their first next gen only exclusive plus their old catalog games on GP and it reached 50M subscribers then they will stop including some of the best selling games day one on Gamepass, or stop the $1 stuff, rise the subscription price, stop the acquisitions, etc. in order to try to make it profitable and start recouping all the investment.

Sony has already grown their top teams significantly, and they are all producing additional games that will start releasing in the next few years: Insomniac has 3-4 teams, ND is working on 3 games now, SSM is working on at least 2 games, GG is working on at least 2 games. There is a new studio in SD.

So in terms of first-party output, they have already made the necessary decisions. There may come further acquisitions down the road, which may bolster the output even more, as hinted in the financial reports.

Yep, in recent interviews Ryan said they will continue growing their teams and that plan to do some acquisitions.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Most of your studios sound about right. Insomniac is a beast. ND released 2 new games last gen so 2 games this gen , and I'm guessing you are adding the multiplayer game portion of tlou2 as a game. SSM's output last gen was quality but only one game so 2 games if nothing goes wrong sounds about right. GG should be able to knock out 2 ps5 games excluding horizon sequel due to expansions. SP released 2 full games last gen and they will probably do the same this gen as well. Even with the growths of the studios the number of future releases you mentioned would be similar to the output of last gen.

The biggest change would be all of Insomniac's games releasing on ps5. On the acquisition front everyone seems to be expecting Blue Point so that is okay but not exactly exciting. I honestly don't really expect them to acquire anyone else. I'd honestly be down if they did one shocking AAA acquistion and the rest were indies.

The first-party output will be higher for sure, because they have added new teams.

ND released 3 games last gen (Uncharted 4, Uncharted Lost Legacy, TLOU2, in addition to TLOU remaster).

SSM had one game cancelled and the studio was being restructured, hence they could only produce 1 game, but now they have two teams, and the GOW trilogy all planned out. I am confident we will get 4 games from them this generation (3 for sure).

SP's 2 games sound about right. GG also has 2 teams and 400 people now (including an xDev team). I'm expecting at least 3-4 games from them this generation. And Insomniac, as you said, is a beast. They are the dark horse of this generation and will play a crucial role for Sony, especially with PSVR2 (I have a hunch they are working on a PSVR2 game).

I think Sony will be fine in terms of first-party output. They have already released 5 PlayStation Studios game in the first 6 months of launch, with 2 are lined up for the next 3 months. This is fantastic output.

Now all eyes are on Sony if they purchase a big publisher and take that content off Xbox (ala Bethesda). But Sony does not operate that way. So shouldn't be judged based of their inaction on that front, imo.

 

[yurinka]

The first-party output will be higher for sure, because they have added new teams.

ND released 3 games last gen (Uncharted 4, Uncharted Lost Legacy, TLOU2, in addition to TLOU remaster).

SSM had one game cancelled and the studio was being restructured, hence they could only produce 1 game, but now they have two teams, and the GOW trilogy all planned out. I am confident we will get 4 games from them this generation (3 for sure).

SP's 2 games sound about right. GG also has 2 teams and 400 people now (including an xDev team). I'm expecting at least 3-4 games from them this generation. And Insomniac, as you said, is a beast. They are the dark horse of this generation and will play a crucial role for Sony, especially with PSVR2 (I have a hunch they are working on a PSVR2 game).

I think Sony will be fine in terms of first-party output. They have already released 5 PlayStation Studios game in the first 6 months of launch, with 2 are lined up for the next 3 months. This is fantastic output.

Now all eyes are on Sony if they purchase a big publisher and take that content off Xbox (ala Bethesda). But Sony does not operate that way. So shouldn't be judged based of their inaction on that front, imo.

Yep, I replied him/here with the real amount of Sony last gen output and was way bigger:

Let's see, last gen:
-Insomniac and Japan Studio released a lot of games last gen.
-Media Molecule last gen released Tearaway, Tearaway Unfolded, Dreams and did help with LBP Vita and LBP3 (plus Sackboy for PS5).
-Santa Monica released GoW 3 Remastered, GoW 2018, had to cancel a game that was into production, incubated several indie studios/games and this year is supposed to release GoWR.
-Bend released Uncharted Golden Abyss, Uncharted Fight for Fortune, Days Gone, is working on its PC port and pretty likely next year will release DG2.
-Guerrilla released Killzone Shadow Fall, Horizon, did help with Killzone Mercenary or Death Stranding, and this year releases HZD PC port and Horizon 2.
-Naughty Dog released TLOUR, Uncharted Collection, U4, Lost Legacy, TLOU2, did help on the Vita Uncharted games and hosts the ICE team and is supposed to work on TLOU2 MP which sounds may end being a separate game.
-Sucker Punch released Infamous Second Son, First Light and GoT.
-San Diego released 7 MLB games and did help Guns Up!, Kill Strain, Drawn to Death and StarBlood Arena.
-London released 4 titles and did help in other ones.
-They also have Polyphony (GTS) and Pixel Opus (new team, 2 PS4 games).
-Evolution released DC before shutting down.

And we also have to consider that in PS5 the 1st party studios will release way more games than in PS4 because:
-Won't make PS Vita games
-(almost) Won't release previous gen remasters due to BC (and if they do them, the required work will be insanelly smaller)
-Won't need to work on 2nd party publishing/localization/marketing etc because it will be centralized for PS Studios worldwide
-Won''t need to incubate small local teams, Sony seems to be handling them now from the indies area
-This time hardware is of the same family than previous gen, they can reuse all their engines and tools. No big changes or time required to start releasing next gen games
-Most of them have been growing these years to a point most of them now work in more games at the same time than they did before
-Now they will have the additional San Diego studio

So if they already were releasing way more 1st party games than MS and Nintendo, now this difference will increase.

They don't need to buy a publisher unless (I think isn't the case) they want to highly grow their already huge catalog of IPs and classics for PS Now. If something, they may continue buying from time to time some proven 3rd party dev studio with a long trajectory of successful PS exclusive games, mostly to secure future support and to optimize their work and profitability on Sony's side.

 

[NahaNago]

Regarding the case of Sony with 130 million consoles, it's more or less the case now with PS4+PS5 sales: they make way more revenue and profit than MS game division with the current. GP reaching 60M would mean that maybe they would slightly pass the current amount of subscribers Sony has (Plus+Now), which is around 50M. But in MS case would be with many people having paid only $1 instead of full subscription and sacrificing a lot of game sales plus tons of millions paid to devs to compensate for putting their games on GP, and sacrificing game sales, plus sacrificing console sales because their games being day one on PC too.

The overrall picture of 130M Sony consoles vs 60M GP subscribers would mean that very likely MS game division would make less revenue and profits than Sony currently does. And Sony's game division sales and revenue has a long term growth that won't stop now:

Sony isn't worried about GP, and won't be worried once it hits 60M subs. The overall PS strategy performs way better and seems will continue doing so. They will only continue tweaking Now and Plus as already planned (like putting PS Now on mobile/tablets/tvs, increasing its resolution and image quality, expanding to more countries, tweaking the business model and catalog, etc) because they have areas of improvement specially considering next gen logical steps, but won't be putting there all their exclusives + some multi AAA games day one.


Remember they also made more recent acquisitions like Minecraft and so on. In the recent years they spend over 10B on acquisitions. On top of that they also pay the publishers the estimated amount of money they won't earn in sales due to including these games on GP. It's a lot of money invested until now. Not sure how far they will go, but I think they will continue with it at least 3-4 years more. Maybe in 2023-2024 once all their new studios released their first next gen only exclusive plus their old catalog games on GP and it reached 50M subscribers then they will stop including some of the best selling games day one on Gamepass, or stop the $1 stuff, rise the subscription price, stop the acquisitions, etc. in order to try to make it profitable and start recouping all the investment.

Yep, in recent interviews Ryan said they will continue growing their teams and that plan to do some acquisitions.

Showing a chart for console sales in the year of a console launch of course things are going to look great. My using the gamepass of 60 million versus 130 million ps consoles was for monthly sales that keep going and going versus the flat one time sale of the console. Plus they don't have to sell more hardware since tons of folk already have a pc if not a gaming pc. The key difference though has been the release of games on gamepass these last few years compared to playstation and where it is now available. As time goes by gamepass becomes harder and harder to not join in because of the library. As time goes by or when you have these big AAA releases from Microsoft day one on pc and then folks have access all of sudden for next extra charge to the library of gamepass games do you think folks will then cancel their subscriptions especially with the day one games. The higher prices of games become the better gamepass looks. Just look at the craziness of the mlb gamepass thread. Playstation has dominated and made bank which is why Microsoft has changed and become better.

For Minecraft I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they already made their money back on that game considering all of the toys I see in just about every store I go to. All they need for minecraft now is a netflix cartoon to get even more kids addicted to the game.

Considering all of the recent acquistions. My theory on where they will go with the games is either they will go kinda episodic so smaller chunks of games that they can easily release over time to keep you hooked but they will probably be more like expansions in size, go the pure gaas type games, or just straight up smaller games period. I don't really expect them to stop releasing games day one on gamepass if they have large subscriber numbers since those games were kind of the reason folks jumped on in the first place.

 

[yurinka]

Showing a chart for console sales in the year of a console launch of course things are going to look great.

The opposite, traditionally it means to destroy profits because there are a lot of R&D and marketing costs related plus a lot of money lost because traditionally (otside Nintendo) consoles are sold at a loss when released, and over time due to cost cuts it's when they are sold at a profit.

It's the first time Sony had a profit on the year they release a console. It has been thanks to insane revenue coming from game sales and subscriptions thanks to PS4 being still so healthy with over 100M active users.

 

[NahaNago]

The opposite, traditionally it means to destroy profits because there are a lot of R&D and marketing costs related plus a lot of money lost because traditionally (otside Nintendo) consoles are sold at a loss when released, and over time due to cost cuts it's when they are sold at a profit.

It's the first time Sony had a profit on the year they release a console. It has been thanks to insane revenue coming from game sales and subscriptions thanks to PS4 being still so healthy with over 100M active users.

wait, I thought that outside of the custom ssd they weren't really trying to break the bank when making the ps5 even with all of the R&D. It's kind of the reason why they are going for more off the shelf parts these days. I figured they had learned this lesson of making a profit from selling a console from NIntendo.

No surprise on the revenue portion from game sales since they did release a bunch of heavy hitters last year.

 

[yurinka]

wait, I thought that outside of the custom ssd they weren't really trying to break the bank when making the ps5 even with all of the R&D. It's kind of the reason why they are going for more off the shelf parts these days. I figured they had learned this lesson of making a profit from selling a console from NIntendo.

No surprise on the revenue portion from game sales since they did release a bunch of heavy hitters last year.

The R&D related to researching specific hardware parts like the SSD isn't included in the launch year, it was included way before. The big cost in launch year is related to build the manufacturing factory lines for the console and so on.

But yes, it's true that PS4 or PS5 use pretty much relatively standard components and technology (with relatively small customizations), which decreases a lot the overall R&D costs compared to back in the past when they made a lot of custom alien hardware that was too bizarre and unique. To make these decisions, in addition to reduce costs, it also made development easier. Cerny was a genius here and applied a ton of common sense and stuff devs were asking for.

As I remember, PS4 and PS5 barely needed to sell a full priced AAA game or two (or a year or two of PS Plus) for the console to compensate the loss. So considering PS4 had an average of over 10 games sold per console it must have been always profitable, and same will happen with PS5. As I remember, Vita was sold at a profit since the start.

 

[Hatsuma]

Ya...and meanwhile Sony released FF7 Remake(timed exclusive not 1st party), Last of Us 2, Ghosts of T, Demon Souls, Miles Morales with MLB Show(MultiPlat now), Returnal, Deathloop and Ratchet and Clank all literally within like a year period. And then I assume Kena, Ghostwire Tokyo, Horizon and possibly GOW in the next year window and maybe more titles ?

More than likely. A lot of their studios have been expanding for greater output on top of slew of 2nd party and 3rd party deals we aren't even aware of. That is most confusing part honestly. Why are individuals thinking Sony will just get dominated 2nd half of this generation lol?

 

[NahaNago]

Now all eyes are on Sony if they purchase a big publisher and take that content off Xbox (ala Bethesda). But Sony does not operate that way. So shouldn't be judged based of their inaction on that front, imo.

Yeah, this is what irks me with Sony they are very safe when it comes to expanding. I feel like the only reason they even purchased funimation and crunchy roll was because of the big push for tv subscriptions and anime plus playstation does go together pretty well. But they don't actually purchase an anime studio? They should have tried to acquire squareenix back when square was struggling or even Capcom.

 

[SLB1904]

Yeah, this is what irks me with Sony they are very safe when it comes to expanding. I feel like the only reason they even purchased funimation and crunchy roll was because of the big push for tv subscriptions and anime plus playstation does go together pretty well. But they don't actually purchase an anime studio? They should have tried to acquire squareenix back when square was struggling or even Capcom.

did you even consider that both parties are happy the way they operate. i mean there was a time where square was in the shit and apparently, sony bought some shares and then sold them back when square start getting on rails. they had that chance

 

[Renozokii]

I really don’t believe that the Bethesda buyout has “scared Sony” at all. Sony will have always had a strategy for expanding their Worldwide Studios, through organic growth and acquisition and the PS4 era has given them a shit ton of cash to execute that strategy. Whilst they have the cash to buy a Squeenix or a Sega that hasn’t traditionally been their style, they’re far more likely to pick up a Housemarque or Remedy.

MS may have acquired a bunch of studios, but they’ve yet to translate that into any sort of productivity, hence why were always talking about backwards compatibility and Gamepass. This is interesting in itself as Phil Spencer seems to have been allowed to keep on buying despite not yet demonstrating that he can make their existing portfolio of studios productive at all. We joke sometimes about how unproductive and unprolific Polyphony is for Playstation, sometimes it feels like all of the Xbox studios are like that!

My god man preach. There are 23 studios under MS now. How in the living fuck is there NOT A SINGLE first party game released in the 6 not since months since their new console launched. And not a SINGLE first party game with an actual release date for all of 2021 yet. I hear Xbox people talk and talk but man demons souls sure was fun. MM was fun as fuck. And I’m genuinely beyond excited for Returnal and Horizon 2. It’s crazy Xbox fans will spew and spew the same shit over and over but the last game released for them by Microsoft was what? Gears 5?

Phil couldn’t get a decent halo out, had the shit that was crack down 3 release under him, battletoads.., and fucking halo 5. Every developer under Microsoft before all the acquisitions (save for playground of course) would be getting the axe by any other publisher or at the very least be having major changes in leadership.

 

[Hatsuma]

The first-party output will be higher for sure, because they have added new teams.

ND released 3 games last gen (Uncharted 4, Uncharted Lost Legacy, TLOU2, in addition to TLOU remaster).

SSM had one game cancelled and the studio was being restructured, hence they could only produce 1 game, but now they have two teams, and the GOW trilogy all planned out. I am confident we will get 4 games from them this generation (3 for sure).

SP's 2 games sound about right. GG also has 2 teams and 400 people now (including an xDev team). I'm expecting at least 3-4 games from them this generation. And Insomniac, as you said, is a beast. They are the dark horse of this generation and will play a crucial role for Sony, especially with PSVR2 (I have a hunch they are working on a PSVR2 game).

I think Sony will be fine in terms of first-party output. They have already released 5 PlayStation Studios game in the first 6 months of launch, with 2 are lined up for the next 3 months. This is fantastic output.

Now all eyes are on Sony if they purchase a big publisher and take that content off Xbox (ala Bethesda). But Sony does not operate that way. So shouldn't be judged based of their inaction on that front, imo.

Insomniac is pretty mind blowing. First to implement incredible high level RT on console. Already experimenting with machine learning on console. Has knowledge to work VR which is perfect for VR 2. Has show case game for PS5 ontop of a RA within a year. They are an incredible acquisition.

Then the expansion of their studios is quite exciting, in addition to possible acquisitions. In a recent interview, the head of Media Molecule even confirmed their studio was expanding to handle multiple projects.

As for SSM and SP, aside from the fact a game they were designing got canned, the reboot had gotten restarted because Yoshida was unimpressed when he saw it, in addition to them making a new engine for the game. I would imagine the output of the studio can be much greater with those hurdles gone. Same with SP, because their prototype got canned as well.

Things are looking bright output wise for PS5.

As for MS, I hope their studios step to the plate, because they already had 13 or so studios long before acquiring Zenimax. Yet nothing during X1 waning years nor at launch. Hopefully they'll have stuff during launch year at least.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

i hope so, Sony need some serious firepower now.

I'd like Square Enix to be a part of Sony too.

 

[NahaNago]

did you even consider that both parties are happy the way they operate. i mean there was a time where square was in the shit and apparently, sony bought some shares and then sold them back when square start getting on rails. they had that chance

I never said they weren't happy with the way they operate. I just said Sony is very safe when it comes to expanding. Sony has been using the whole Japanese exclusive thing for ps for years and have pretty much banked on the nostalgia of them for ps. The thing is most of nostalgia is for third party Japanese games that are now going to every platform under the sun. This is why I've always believed that they should have bought a AAA Japanese company or at least built one up to rival other AAA companies.

 

[Dabaus]

Remember when Sony’s ceo said the Ps5 would be a “niche product?” Really starting to seem they got the niche budget too...interesting times.

 

[Dabaus]

Saw this posted on another forum, sums up my thoughts:

“I don't understand what Sony's play here is, it's not really clear what Jim Ryan is doing by letting Microsoft get all this talent and begin to catch up in market share. Anons will say it's "just arrogance" and maybe that's it, but arrogance at the executive level usually comes with a plan of arrogance, not just the air of superiority. Does Sony think Santa Monica will save them? Even Sony fanboys know that's not true. Why has Sony not been more aggressive with acquiring studios, they've certainly got the money and they're in the position to after "winning" the last generation, but they're sitting there...”

 

[Burythelight]

Saw this posted on another forum, sums up my thoughts:

“I don't understand what Sony's play here is, it's not really clear what Jim Ryan is doing by letting Microsoft get all this talent and begin to catch up in market share. Anons will say it's "just arrogance" and maybe that's it, but arrogance at the executive level usually comes with a plan of arrogance, not just the air of superiority. Does Sony think Santa Monica will save them? Even Sony fanboys know that's not true. Why has Sony not been more aggressive with acquiring studios, they've certainly got the money and they're in the position to after "winning" the last generation, but they're sitting there...”

Insecure fanboys talk.

 

[Dabaus]

Saw this too:

“What a weird schism

Microsoft wants japanese games but their consumers do not want them.

Sony (jim ryan) doesnt want japanese games besides timed exclusives but the consumers absolutely want them (even if 80% of the playerbase are fifa/cod normies)

Nintendo is now open to all games but the switch is incredibly weak and holds games back too much”

 

[Hatsuma]

My god man preach. There are 23 studios under MS now. How in the living fuck is there NOT A SINGLE first party game released in the 6 not since months since their new console launched. And not a SINGLE first party game with an actual release date for all of 2021 yet. I hear Xbox people talk and talk but man demons souls sure was fun. MM was fun as fuck. And I’m genuinely beyond excited for Returnal and Horizon 2. It’s crazy Xbox fans will spew and spew the same shit over and over but the last game released for them by Microsoft was what? Gears 5?

Phil couldn’t get a decent halo out, had the shit that was crack down 3 release under him, battletoads.., and fucking halo 5. Every developer under Microsoft before all the acquisitions (save for playground of course) would be getting the axe by any other publisher or at the very least be having major changes in leadership.

And before 23, they already had 13 or 14. I still don't understand how nothing was ready for launch and possibly launch year barring surprises. Even a Forza game wasn't ready despite taking a break after+ Horizon 3 I think. I don't quite understand where the faith is coming from without results to inspire it. X1 2nd half was already mute, so what has been going on?

And Sony is generally mute on their business goings, unless it's leaked. Is it really so surprising they're quiet?

 

[thismeinteil]

Saw this posted on another forum, sums up my thoughts:

“I don't understand what Sony's play here is, it's not really clear what Jim Ryan is doing by letting Microsoft get all this talent and begin to catch up in market share. Anons will say it's "just arrogance" and maybe that's it, but arrogance at the executive level usually comes with a plan of arrogance, not just the air of superiority. Does Sony think Santa Monica will save them? Even Sony fanboys know that's not true. Why has Sony not been more aggressive with acquiring studios, they've certainly got the money and they're in the position to after "winning" the last generation, but they're sitting there...”

Sony is doing what they do best, let the games do the talking. And the console sales are showing it. PS5 is keeping up with PS4 sales, while XSX has fallen behind XBO's sales in several regions, including the US. Even the highly publicized Bethesda buy, or having the cheapest next gen system, isn't bolstering sales.

And how long til we even see the fruits of that Bethesda buy? 2022? Maybe 2023? It'll be too late by then, as we'll already have Horizon 2, GOW:R, and GT7. A new title from Naughty Dog. Possibly GOT2. Not to even mention future 3rd party exclusives, as well as a $399 disc PS5. And given MS's recent track record for managing games and studios, I have little confidence in them. Bethesda's recent track record hasn't been the greatest, either.

 

[Denorion]

Out of cusiosity, do you think Sony should acquire a WRPG studio, With the Bethesda aqcuisition, Microsoft owns most of the well known RPG devs (Bethesda, Obsidian, Inxile) so Playstation will have a gap on that market
I personally would like to see what ZA/UM and Larian (the developers of Disco Elysium and Divinity Original Sin respectvely) do with a bigger AAA budget

 

[Hatsuma]

Out of cusiosity, do you think Sony should acquire a WRPG studio, With the Bethesda aqcuisition, Microsoft owns most of the well known RPG devs (Bethesda, Obsidian, Inxile) so Playstation will have a gap on that market
I personally would like to see what ZA/UM and Larian (the developers of Disco Elysium and Divinity Original Sin respectvely) do with a bigger AAA budget

It is a good question. I'm wondering if Sony plans to do so and is considering a developing their own. We're going to have to see because they don't discuss acquisitions till they happen .

 

[jroc74]

My god man preach. There are 23 studios under MS now. How in the living fuck is there NOT A SINGLE first party game released in the 6 not since months since their new console launched. And not a SINGLE first party game with an actual release date for all of 2021 yet. I hear Xbox people talk and talk but man demons souls sure was fun. MM was fun as fuck. And I’m genuinely beyond excited for Returnal and Horizon 2. It’s crazy Xbox fans will spew and spew the same shit over and over but the last game released for them by Microsoft was what? Gears 5?

Phil couldn’t get a decent halo out, had the shit that was crack down 3 release under him, battletoads.., and fucking halo 5. Every developer under Microsoft before all the acquisitions (save for playground of course) would be getting the axe by any other publisher or at the very least be having major changes in leadership.

And before 23, they already had 13 or 14.i still don't understand how nothing was ready for launch and possibly launch year barring surprises. Even a Forza game wasn't ready despite taking a break after+ Horizon 3 I think. I don't quite understand where the faith is coming from without results to inspire it. X1 2nd half was already mute, so what has been going on?

And Sony is generally mute on their business goings, unless it's leaked. Is it really so surprising they're quiet?

I remember once upon a time getting into many heated debates about the Matt Booty quote about no Series exclusives for 2 years.

The twisting and brain aneurysms ppl came up with to say he meant 2020, 2021 was beyond insane. This was way before Covid.

 

[Hatsuma]

I remember once upon a time getting into many heated debates about the Matt Booty quote about no Series exclusives for 2 years.

The twisting and brain aneurysms ppl came up with to say he meant 2020, 2021 was beyond insane. This was way before Covid.

Lol, it's wild man.

 

[Bryank75]

New feature piece looking at employee numbers and trends at Sony.

Sony Group number of employees 2007-2020 | Statista​

As of the company’s 2020fiscal year, the Sony Group employed over 111 thousand people around the world.

www.statista.com
Sony has been cutting back on staff and automating as many processes as possible since the late 2000's, when it became obvious that the company was suffering from bloat.
Kaz Hirai continued with cuts from 2013 until his retirement and the company began to see great profitability with that action combined with the new focus on Gaming, Music, Film, Finance and sensors / cameras and optics.

It has come from a peek of 180.5K in 2008 down to 111.7K in 2020. With outsourcing of assembly to foxcon for PlayStation and further automation and more focused product lines... I imagine there will be further cuts to employee numbers.

I do expect staff to increase in certain areas such as gaming, music and possibly film and finance, however. Cuts will however far outnumber the additions.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

New feature piece looking at employee numbers and trends at Sony.

Sony Group number of employees 2007-2020 | Statista​

As of the company’s 2020fiscal year, the Sony Group employed over 111 thousand people around the world.

www.statista.com
Sony has been cutting back on staff and automating as many processes as possible since the late 2000's, when it became obvious that the company was suffering from bloat.
Kaz Hirai continued with cuts from 2013 until his retirement and the company began to see great profitability with that action combined with the new focus on Gaming, Music, Film, Finance and sensors / cameras and optics.

It has come from a peek of 180.5K in 2008 down to 111.7K in 2020. With outsourcing of assembly to foxcon for PlayStation and further automation and more focused product lines... I imagine there will be further cuts to employee numbers.

I do expect staff to increase in certain areas such as gaming, music and possibly film and finance, however. Cuts will however far outnumber the additions.

This is good news for the company, but bad news if they had to lose their jobs. Sony is going hard into automation with one of their 3 factories of playstation in Tokyo being run by only 4 employees. This trend will mean China will lose some of its influence, but China isn't only massive as a powerhouse but as holding 90% of the world's rare materials.

 

[TKOFromTokyo]

New feature piece looking at employee numbers and trends at Sony.

Sony Group number of employees 2007-2020 | Statista​

As of the company’s 2020fiscal year, the Sony Group employed over 111 thousand people around the world.

www.statista.com
Sony has been cutting back on staff and automating as many processes as possible since the late 2000's, when it became obvious that the company was suffering from bloat.
Kaz Hirai continued with cuts from 2013 until his retirement and the company began to see great profitability with that action combined with the new focus on Gaming, Music, Film, Finance and sensors / cameras and optics.

It has come from a peek of 180.5K in 2008 down to 111.7K in 2020. With outsourcing of assembly to foxcon for PlayStation and further automation and more focused product lines... I imagine there will be further cuts to employee numbers.

I do expect staff to increase in certain areas such as gaming, music and possibly film and finance, however. Cuts will however far outnumber the additions.

Those are some large headcounts. I don’t like to see good workers lose their jobs, but in this day and age those numbers definitely can be cut. Seeing as my job is reporting numbers, I’ve been desensitized to restructuring and RIFs.

 

[vivftp]

New feature piece looking at employee numbers and trends at Sony.

Sony Group number of employees 2007-2020 | Statista​

As of the company’s 2020fiscal year, the Sony Group employed over 111 thousand people around the world.

www.statista.com
Sony has been cutting back on staff and automating as many processes as possible since the late 2000's, when it became obvious that the company was suffering from bloat.
Kaz Hirai continued with cuts from 2013 until his retirement and the company began to see great profitability with that action combined with the new focus on Gaming, Music, Film, Finance and sensors / cameras and optics.

It has come from a peek of 180.5K in 2008 down to 111.7K in 2020. With outsourcing of assembly to foxcon for PlayStation and further automation and more focused product lines... I imagine there will be further cuts to employee numbers.

I do expect staff to increase in certain areas such as gaming, music and possibly film and finance, however. Cuts will however far outnumber the additions.

Here's where I got cut!

lol, Canadian customer service for normal electronics got outsourced and a lot of positions got consolidated into the USA. I'm not bitter or anything, I had a great time there and a fair severance package. Glad the company is much healthier now.

 

[Dabaus]

If that’s their trajectory don’t expect a big publisher buyout anytime soon, I guess.

 

[Bryank75]

Here's where I got cut!

lol, Canadian customer service for normal electronics got outsourced and a lot of positions got consolidated into the USA. I'm not bitter or anything, I had a great time there and a fair severance package. Glad the company is much healthier now.

Sorry to hear it, I remember when Sony had stores all over Ireland too.... it seems the direct retail route wasn't very efficient. It does become a lot to manage tightly.

If you have any insights or anything you'd like to add to the business thread, please feel free. Feedback is always welcome too if you have any....

 

[vivftp]

If that’s their trajectory don’t expect a big publisher buyout anytime soon, I guess.

SIE are growing their headcount, not reducing it. While any talk of a publisher buyout is pure speculation at this point we can't discount the possibility if the right opportunity should arise and they're interested. Sony were interested in a small publisher last year with Leyou so who knows what they may decide to do.

Sorry to hear it, I remember when Sony had stores all over Ireland too.... it seems the direct retail route wasn't very efficient. It does become a lot to manage tightly.

If you have any insights or anything you'd like to add to the business thread, please feel free. Feedback is always welcome too if you have any....

No need to worry, things somehow wound up working out better for me from a career perspective, lol.

As for insights... uhh... go Sony go? I don't really have any insights or anything, just my desire to see them continue to grow.

 

[vivftp]

Actually I will contribute something. Just a few days until Sony has their IR Day presentation:

Sony Group Portal - Business Segment Briefings 2022

www.sony.com

No doubt a lot of data will be discussed and many aspects of their business will be touched upon if the 2019 IR day presentation was anything to go by.

 

[Dabaus]

Hopefully gaming will be the top priority for them. It’d be a let down if music and film were the top priority.

 

[BattleScar]

i hope so, Sony need some serious firepower now.

I hope not. We don't need games IP becoming increasingly consolidated amongst platform holders.

 

[vivftp]

Hopefully gaming will be the top priority for them. It’d be a let down if music and film were the top priority.

Each division will have its own priorities measured by different criteria I imagine. I don't think anyone will be able to look at their IR Day presentation and say, "yup, they're focusing the most on this segment, or that segment".

Gaming will no doubt be a massive priority with the PS5 freshly out, the PSVR2 on the horizon, further expansion of first and third party efforts, additional expansion of cloud and mobile efforts and bringing their gaming IP to film and TV. There's a LOT they'll be able to discuss.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

I really don't want to see publishers being picked up by platform holders, I hate that MS bought Bethesda but from what's been said Bethesda was looking to be acquired by someone and to me it's better that someone in the console space did it than someone like Amazon, Google or Apple taking them over.

 

[Dabaus]

We’ve heard Sony wants to focus on entertainment this coming next few years. As far as what Sony’s goal or strategy is consider this:

Music: They already own a significant chunk of the music industry and any major moves such as acquisitions in that field will get looked at by antitrust lawyer’s.

Anime: same as music. Crunchy roll is already being reviewed by the doj to see if they don’t have a monopoly. Either way I could see Sony acquiring a few anime/manga houses in Japan if the doj blocks them.

Movies/film: I could see them expanding their movie studios productions, whatever that entails, but what movie studios are even available to purchase that wouldn’t be some 50 billion dollar investment? Heck MGM might get bought by Amazon for 9 billion and the only IP worth anything is James Bond.

Electronics: Not entertainment but maybe a chip maker or a factory or two?

Cell phone gaming: it’s a growing market and worth more than console gaming. It wouldn’t be a sexy investment but it makes sense. I doubt they’d blow their load on a cell phone gaming company but it wouldn’t surprise me if they did.

Console gaming: There are still a lot of independent studios they can acquire or partner with. In my opinion there’s no good reason that SE or capcom haven’t been acquired or at least had a major stock purchase. Console gaming seems like the best place to focus on short and long term.

All in my opinion of course.

Edit: If they’re not in the mood for out right acquisitions then I could see major stock share buys in up and coming Chinese companies too.

 

[Jen_yakzua]

Hey in the future do you guys think sony makes a play for some of the Wb asset since it seems discovery is look to sell some of theses assets in the near future
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/18/warnermedia-discovery-structured-for-flexibility-to-sell-later.html