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[ryan90k]

they already have there streaming device coming out although I doubt it will be good. A portable PS4 would be able to play an insane number of great games but I doubt it's possible to shrink the hardware and have it run efficiently enough since the jaguar cores and gpu are not efficiency driven designs. Maybe some sort of backwards compatible mode on a new APU similar to how the PS5 does it.

 

[ArtHands]

Okay, let me get this straight:

You're suggesting Sony should create a PLAYSTATION branded handheld device that is a PC for 499$, and somehow, it targets PC gamers and not console players (you know, the ones that typically buy Playstation products?). But that's okay because Playstation gamers won't buy any PC games on this device to run natively because....idk, reasons. Instead, they will use their 499$ device to stream PS5 games. Did..did I get all that?

Because you're releasing a Playstation product which allows game purchases outside of the Playstation eco system. Someone isn't going to pay 80$ for a game on Sony's store when they can get the same game 10$ cheaper on steam.

Another insane comparison. A laptop is a multifunctional device. A dedicated handheld PC is specifically designed for gaming and targets the same audience.

Why will console players want to buy PC games on this and not simply use it purely for stream (or play selected PS games natively)? They are not going to fuss with the settings or tinkering even if the game is $10 cheaper. Why won’t this happen the other way round and PC players be tempted to join the PS console ecosystem with this?

come to think of it, Sony can even display splash page for PS5 games on this or offer incentives like exclusives discounts if users buy PS games through PS Store on this.

 

[mhirano]

Oh fuck, i'm gonna cum.

edit - nvmd read the title wrong

 

[ArtHands]

If Sony go that route, they will launch with PS5 compatibility like the series S but portable, they make money through licensing games for their platform, not the hardware.
I would love a new portable from Sony, but the market may not. People expect too much from PlayStation, they can't pull a switch like Nintendo. Different public.

Technically speaking only the portable handheld console market has rejected them, but they haven’t try the emerging handheld pc market.

PlayStation won’t and shouldn’t release any other device that would make their development teams to spread themselves thin. This is the reason why Vita was dropped so soon.

That’s why a streaming device makes more sense than anything else since development will still be targeting only one platform.

It won’t need any involvement from their game development studios. It is a portable PC.

 

[Kerotan]

This too. Never too many Handheld options.

Never too few. Nothing beats traditional home console or pc gaming from your couch. Portable gamers need to look in the mirror and re-evaluate their lifestyle choices.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Never too few. Nothing beats traditional home console or pc gaming from your couch. Portable gamers need to look in the mirror and re-evaluate their lifestyle choices.

https://emojis.slackmojis.com/emojis/images/1586355916/8556/dr_evil_right.gif?1586355916

Edit: whoops... Just picture Dr. Evil slowing saying "righhhhhtttt" in a very sarcastic tone.

Edit edit: there we go

 

[Rykan]

A handheld PC is different from a home console connected to a TV. It doesn't encourage customers to stop buying a playstation anymore than the GBA encouraged played to not buy a PS2.

Again, it shouldn't be limited to the playstation brand, and should just be another Sony product. Sony makes hardware.

Again, it's not about the hardware; it's about the software licensing fees that constitute the vast majority of Sony's profits in the video game business. Releasing a handheld gaming PC won't deter anyone from buying PS5 hardware, but it unquestionably encourages people to purchase games outside the Playstation ecosystem, resulting in Sony losing its primary source of income: licensing.

Every dollar spent on games for the handheld PC is money not spent on PS games. It becomes even more complicated when dealing with multiplatform games. You're forcing people who own both the handheld device and the PS5 to decide which version they're going to buy: the Playstation one, which tends to be more expensive, or the cheaper one on a PC storefront.

Why will console players want to buy PC games on this and not simply use it purely for stream (or play selected PS games natively)? They are not going to fuss with the settings or tinkering even if the game is $10 cheaper. Why won’t this happen the other way round and PC players be tempted to join the PS console ecosystem with this?

come to think of it, Sony can even display splash page for PS5 games on this or offer incentives like exclusives discounts if users buy PS games through PS Store on this.

"Oh man, I just spent $499 on this device, but I'm only going to use it to stream my PS5 games from my PS5 because buying games that run natively on it is so difficult." C'mon, man. This isn't an audience that exists. "Tinkering" isn't a thing with handheld PCs. You open the game, and depending on the game, it might already configure itself for you by detecting your hardware; if not, you can simply select one of the preset settings.

Why would any PC player be tempted to join the PS ecosystem with this thing? They already have a PC, and any games they purchase on this device won't run on a PS5. There's nothing there that encourages people to move over to PS5.

 

[Andrew Evenstar]

this thread is irrelevant . don't you guyz have phones?!

 

[rofif]

That doesn’t explain the existence of the portable PCs in the market in the past years



Because history and track records has proven you wrong multiple times.



Project Q will play games with lag and latency. A hypothetical Playstation Portable PC can do what Project Q do too but more.

It will steam directly from your local ps5. Not through the cloud. So probably depends on your Wi-Fi and if they f it up.
But streaming 1080p60 at high settings is still faster than local 720p30 at low settings.
I am genuinely starting to think that Q is not a terrible idea for playing at home

 

[ArtHands]

Again, it's not about the hardware; it's about the software licensing fees that constitute the vast majority of Sony's profits in the video game business. Releasing a handheld gaming PC won't deter anyone from buying PS5 hardware, but it unquestionably encourages people to purchase games outside the Playstation ecosystem, resulting in Sony losing its primary source of income: licensing.

Every dollar spent on games for the handheld PC is money not spent on PS games. It becomes even more complicated when dealing with multiplatform games. You're forcing people who own both the handheld device and the PS5 to decide which version they're going to buy: the Playstation one, which tends to be more expensive, or the cheaper one on a PC storefront.


"Oh man, I just spent $499 on this device, but I'm only going to use it to stream my PS5 games from my PS5 because buying games that run natively on it is so difficult." C'mon, man. This isn't an audience that exists. "Tinkering" isn't a thing with handheld PCs. You open the game, and depending on the game, it might already configure itself for you by detecting your hardware; if not, you can simply select one of the preset settings.

Why would any PC player be tempted to join the PS ecosystem with this thing? They already have a PC, and any games they purchase on this device won't run on a PS5. There's nothing there that encourages people to move over to PS5.

With it, a PS5 player can stream PS5 games everywhere in the house (with the additional ability to natively install selected PS games). No audience that exist? Someone just said he’s starting to think Q is not a bad idea.

No need to tinker a portable PC when it is literally a PC? Try telling the console players that they do not need to spend hours tinkering before playing a PC game. They will laugh at you or look at you weird.

there’s nothing that encourage console players to move to PC gaming with this here.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

No, they should keep doing what they do best and focus on AAA gaming

 

[Kakax11]

that will kill PS5 so hard, also makes sense for Sony to go after that since they wanna push their agendas more than making money (Spiderman 2 ban and FFXVI)

 

[SoraNoKuni]

If they could use a custom apu similar to Steam deck and manage to play PS5 games but on half or slightly less than half the resolution, reliably.
It would be a win.
But I don't see them trying to compete after the vita PTSD.

 

[Rykan]

With it, a PS5 player can stream PS5 games everywhere in the house (with the additional ability to natively install selected PS games). No audience that exist? Someone just said he’s starting to think Q is not a bad idea.

The project Q device isn't going to cost 499$.

No need to tinker a portable PC when it is literally a PC? Try telling the console players that they do not need to spend hours tinkering before playing a PC game. They will laugh at you or look at you weird.

No. This isn't a thing. Nobody actually believes this, and nobody is actually spending "hours" tinkering before playing a PC game, regardless if they are playing on a handheld PC or not.

there’s nothing that encourage console players to move to PC gaming with this here.

Yes, it does, because you're suggesting that Sony should release a handheld gaming device with the PlayStation branding on it. Your primary audience will always be Playstation fans when you do that. It seems like you have this wild misunderstanding that making it a handheld PC instead of a regular handheld device means that console players won't make up a significant portion of the audience.

 

[009EspadaSageJay]

Sony won't make a crazy handheld for $499 they would make 0 money on that the profit margins would be so small. The ps vita when it launched was the 2nd/3rd most expensive handheld to launch ever and that's before we add in games and memory cards.

 

[SHA]

Why the portable part?, sounds convenient, Playstation and pc alone is too much to think of let alone the portable part.

 

[SHA]

It's not happening, if Microsoft couldn't do it then how Sony could? It's a complex platform, and I can only imagine the brad being diminished from there.

 

[Thirty7ven]

An handheld PS4 that could stream PS5 games would’ve been a much more appealing option but they would be investing a ton of money on it.

 

[Dream-Knife]

Again, it's not about the hardware; it's about the software licensing fees that constitute the vast majority of Sony's profits in the video game business. Releasing a handheld gaming PC won't deter anyone from buying PS5 hardware, but it unquestionably encourages people to purchase games outside the Playstation ecosystem, resulting in Sony losing its primary source of income: licensing.

Every dollar spent on games for the handheld PC is money not spent on PS games. It becomes even more complicated when dealing with multiplatform games. You're forcing people who own both the handheld device and the PS5 to decide which version they're going to buy: the Playstation one, which tends to be more expensive, or the cheaper one on a PC storefront.


"Oh man, I just spent $499 on this device, but I'm only going to use it to stream my PS5 games from my PS5 because buying games that run natively on it is so difficult." C'mon, man. This isn't an audience that exists. "Tinkering" isn't a thing with handheld PCs. You open the game, and depending on the game, it might already configure itself for you by detecting your hardware; if not, you can simply select one of the preset settings.

Why would any PC player be tempted to join the PS ecosystem with this thing? They already have a PC, and any games they purchase on this device won't run on a PS5. There's nothing there that encourages people to move over to PS5.

And you're forgetting that Sony is a hardware company. They make a lot of money on playstation from licensing yes. As you said, playstation owners aren't going to jump ship so their licensing money is safe milking those cows. This is expanding their markets.

The two devices don't compete with each other.

You are correct, there is no reason to join the PS ecosystem for a PC player. This product would sell to that market.

Sony has existed before the Playstation, and they will exist after it. Maybe they'll sell off the division like they did with Vaio? Who knows what the future will hold, but corporations are about continued economic growth.

It will steam directly from your local ps5. Not through the cloud. So probably depends on your Wi-Fi and if they f it up.
But streaming 1080p60 at high settings is still faster than local 720p30 at low settings.
I am genuinely starting to think that Q is not a terrible idea for playing at home

You can already do that on a Steam Deck though.

 

[Rykan]

And you're forgetting that Sony is a hardware company.

I'm not. It's just completely and utterly irrelevant. You keep using this argument as if it means something. Yes, Sony is a hardware company. And? What's your point? That doesn't mean they will develop or manufacture a product whose primary function is to push users away from their primary source of income

They make a lot of money on playstation from licensing yes. As you said, playstation owners aren't going to jump ship so their licensing money is safe milking those cows. This is expanding their markets.

The two devices don't compete with each other.

I haven't said that at all. What I have said is that if Sony releases a handheld gaming device, whether it's technically a PC or not, a significant portion of the user base will consist of Playstation users, just like Sony's previous handhelds. The fact that it is technically a PC doesn't change that because the main functionality remains the same: playing video games. Every video game-related device competes with each other because they all sell video games. Money spent on one device is money lost on another.

You are correct, there is no reason to join the PS ecosystem for a PC player. This product would sell to that market.

There's no logical argument you can come up with that explains how a handheld device developed by a console manufacturer would exclusively appeal to PC users.

Sony has existed before the Playstation, and they will exist after it. Maybe they'll sell off the division like they did with Vaio? Who knows what the future will hold, but corporations are about continued economic growth.

Pushing your users away from your primary source of income isn't economic growth. It's the exact opposite.

 

[Dream-Knife]

I'm not. It's just completely and utterly irrelevant. You keep using this argument as if it means something. Yes, Sony is a hardware company. And? What's your point? That doesn't mean they will develop or manufacture a product whose primary function is to push users away from their primary source of income

I haven't said that at all. What I have said is that if Sony releases a handheld gaming device, whether it's technically a PC or not, a significant portion of the user base will consist of Playstation users, just like Sony's previous handhelds. The fact that it is technically a PC doesn't change that because the main functionality remains the same: playing video games. Every video game-related device competes with each other because they all sell video games. Money spent on one device is money lost on another.

There's no logical argument you can come up with that explains how a handheld device developed by a console manufacturer would exclusively appeal to PC users.

Pushing your users away from your primary source of income isn't economic growth. It's the exact opposite.

This is the same argument sony fans were making when games started going to PC.

Sony is trying to grow. Sorry you don't like that.

 

[Rykan]

This is the same argument sony fans were making when games started going to PC.

Sony is trying to grow. Sorry you don't like that.

I see that you persist in your dedication to bad and flawed comparisons.

There's an enormous difference between releasing a limited set of games on PC a year or longer after their initial release and creating a hardware device that encourages users to purchase all the software from sources outside their ecosystem.

I don't know why you're saying, "Sorry you don't like that?" Just as a reminder: This Sony handheld PC is a fantasy of yours. It's not something that is actually going to happen because it is an incredibly dumb idea for reasons stated above.

 

[tommyleelynn]

Add in OLED screen, touch pad, back touch pad, back buttons, and 8 to 12 hours battery life, better specs than ROG Ally, a price tag of $499 they could easily outsell other portable PCs.

The Steam Deck costs more than PS5. There is no way they would be interested in the R&D to make another PS handheld that has the PS5 specs given the previous chip shortage and the PS5 “Trinity” launching next year.

Too many factors and competing interests in the mix as it is. The PS5 is on track to be the fastest/best selling console since the PS2 despite the shortage and high MSRP. With a price reduction starting the Sunday, it’s just not in their best interest. They don’t care what we want that much.

 

[ArtHands]

The project Q device isn't going to cost 499$.

No. This isn't a thing. Nobody actually believes this, and nobody is actually spending "hours" tinkering before playing a PC game, regardless if they are playing on a handheld PC or not.


Yes, it does, because you're suggesting that Sony should release a handheld gaming device with the PlayStation branding on it. Your primary audience will always be Playstation fans when you do that. It seems like you have this wild misunderstanding that making it a handheld PC instead of a regular handheld device means that console players won't make up a significant portion of the audience.

Of course Proj Q isn't going to cost 499$. It also doesn't have the hypothetical feature of downloading native selected PS games.

I doubt the claim where nobody spend hours tinkering before playing a PC game. You should go make a thread about PC tinkering and ask around here. Many folks will rather spend more on buying a game on console to avoid tinkering than paying less.

The PS branding is no longer only about console. They also have Playstation Mobile and Playstation PC now.

 

[Oof85]

Nobody cares about 'aims or achievements'. 80% of the time success is measured in system units sold. That's why the Wii was also a success even though software sales on it weren't the best after the granny dropoff.
The console sold 80 million units. Nintendo killer or not it was a highly desired, influential and beloved product, and it would've made for a good first step towards taking over Nintendo's handheld division if nothing else. It was the closest another console competitior came to usurping Nintendo's clearly dominant handheld throne, that counts for something.

You say that, but I'd put money down internally Sony feels differently.

Especially since you can draw a line from the DS to the Switch.

You ask Sony right now if they'd take PSP selling a great 80 million vs Nintendo going 3P or just shuttering entirely and we both know they're choosing Nintendo's exit.

And you can't speak on the hardware sales without addressing the elephant in the room in regards to the software side.

The razor/blade model means the platform maker loses on hardware sales but makes it up with software.
But outside of a select few titles(MH mostly) PSP was bad for software.

Those umds were too easy to rip.

I will say this tho, it definitely was the closest competition Nintendo ever had in the portable arena.

But it was Sony, and this was Nintendo.

It was supposed to be a foregone conclusion that Sony would wipe out Nintendo. And it didn't.

And imo, was the first time the world realized Sony doesn't necessarily = win.

 

[lmimmfn]

I'm down with PPP.

Something like a P Tripple

 

[alucard0712_rus]

Because history and track records has proven you wrong multiple times.

Except no.
Never in the history Playstation portable was supporting main console games. PSP or Vita didn't play PS2 or PS3 games. I'm talking about that Playstation is still supporting PS4 this gen so they can release a portable console with full native PS4 support and many will buy it. At least it's better idea than "Project Q".

 

[ArtHands]

Except no.
Never in the history Playstation portable was supporting main console games. PSP or Vita didn't play PS2 or PS3 games. I'm talking about that Playstation is still supporting PS4 this gen so they can release a portable console with full native PS4 support and many will buy it. At least it's better idea than "Project Q".

Except you are wrong again here. They had their tries at supporting more than 1 closed platform Playstation machines, they failed. You should move on.

Wouldn't that kind of clash with their current strategy of delaying and withholding ports to ensure PC always plays second fiddle to their consoles?

Imagine buying Sony branded gaming hardware and then having to wait years to play the latest Sony games.


I'm not sure you're aware of this, but adding more features and higher quality components tends to make hardware cost more, not less.

Strategy can change. For example, they didn't release games on PC before. Now they do. They don't release games day 1 on PC. Now we have folks saying they will for GAAS.

Sony branded portable PC will be able to stream PS games, and several Playstation PC games. That's more support from Sony than the Vita.

 

[LazyParrot]

Strategy can change. For example, they didn't release games on PC before. Now they do. They don't release games day 1 on PC. Now we have folks saying they will for GAAS.

Sony branded portable PC will be able to stream PS games, and several Playstation PC games. That's more support from Sony than the Vita.

Even if all of there were to happen (and there is currently exactly zero evidence suggesting that it will), that still leaves the other issue in my post, which you've conveniently neglected to address.

Again, how do you expect Sony to come up with a handheld PC that is not only significantly faster and more feature-rich than competing models, but also significantly cheaper?

 

[Dorago]

Sony needs 5 years of R&D to create proprietary game media and save storage formats that will hamper the widescale adoption of their putative unit.

 

[Apocryphon]

And lose money on every unit sold…

Why?

 

[Thanati]

 

[ArtHands]

Even if all of there were to happen (and there is currently exactly zero evidence suggesting that it will), that still leaves the other issue in my post, which you've conveniently neglected to address.

Again, how do you expect Sony to come up with a handheld PC that is not only significantly faster and more feature-rich than competing models, but also significantly cheaper?

Because I think that’s too dumb to answer no offense. Why not? Its Sony, they are not that incompetent than the rest.

 

[LazyParrot]

Because I think that’s too dumb to answer no offense. Why not? Its Sony, they are not that incompetent than the rest.

That is by far the dumbest thing I have ever read on this board. I hope you're proud of yourself. No offense intended, of course.

Sony aren't wizards. They can't magically buy a stack of OLED screens for the price of regular LCDs. They can't offer double or triple the battery life of the ROG Ally without using a larger, significantly more expensive battery. That shit costs money, and they have no choice but to pass the extra cost on to you.

 

[ArtHands]

That is by far the dumbest thing I have ever read on this board. I hope you're proud of yourself. No offense intended, of course.

Sony aren't wizards. They can't magically buy a stack of OLED screens for the price of regular LCDs. They can't offer double or triple the battery life of the ROG Ally without using a larger, significantly more expensive battery. That shit costs money, and they have no choice but to pass the extra cost on to you.

Just because you can dispute it doesn’t mean it is dumb. Unless you’re saying Sony can’t do better than Lenovo and co

 

[LazyParrot]

Just because you can dispute it doesn’t mean it is dumb. Unless you’re saying Sony can’t do better than Lenovo and co

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.

What do you expect them to do? Sony doesn't make anything themselves. They have to buy the components that go into their products from the same suppliers as Lenovo or Asus, at the same prices. If they want better screens, batteries or APUs they'll have to pay extra, and if Sony pays more, you pay more.

 

[cash_longfellow]

I have a strange feeling that Sony has secrets they are withholding about the future of Project Q. Pretty sure it’s more than meets the eye, and they are using it as an alpha run for exclusive handheld software for the platform later on. While I think it will remain streaming based, I get the impression that the Q or a similar device will actually be a full blown handheld device in the not too distant future and not just a handheld accessory for remote play…probably wrong, but who knows , clearly there is a ginormous player base for handhelds.

 

[ArtHands]

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.

What do you expect them to do? Sony doesn't make anything themselves. They have to buy the components that go into their products from the same suppliers as Lenovo or Asus, at the same prices. If they want better screens, batteries or APUs they'll have to pay extra, and if Sony pays more, you pay more.

If Sony, who have dominated the console industry for decades with more experiences than companies Lenovo yet cannot do better than them, I think there's something very wrong here.

 

[LazyParrot]

If Sony, who have dominated the console industry for decades with more experiences than companies Lenovo yet cannot do better than them, I think there's something very wrong here.

They're not building a console. They're building a PC. And guess what Lenovo and Asus have decades of experience producing?

Sony can't work their Cerny magic here. The only reason that works on Playstation is that they have full control over the kind of software that can run on their console and the way it is written. They don't have that on PC. They don't get to set the rules on an open platform. They have to play by the same rules as everyone else, and that includes being subjected to the same restrictions when it comes to component options and costs.

 

[BootsLoader]

This would make zero sense, I'd rather them just have a go at their own Switch like device to be the successor of the Vita, which can also play PS1, PS2, PSP and Vita games.

This! Having a machine with new games and a huge library of old PlayStation games is a dream “cum” true.

 

[alucard0712_rus]

Except you are wrong again here. They had their tries at supporting more than 1 closed platform Playstation machines, they failed. You should move on.

Again, no.
You are talking about different games for home and portable consoles. I mean PS5 games downgraded for PS4/PS4 Portable. Very different things. Also developers will benefit from large install base of PS4 at the same time.

 

[MP!]

PSPP

 

[ArtHands]

Again, no.
You are talking about different games for home and portable consoles. I mean PS5 games downgraded for PS4/PS4 Portable. Very different things. Also developers will benefit from large install base of PS4 at the same time.

Again, yes. Previous PS portables failed because PS fans doesn’t want console-like games on portable. Naturally PS4 portable will result in the same fate. No sense repeating the same mistake trying to push portable to PS console fans

 

[ArtHands]

They're not building a console. They're building a PC. And guess what Lenovo and Asus have decades of experience producing?

Sony can't work their Cerny magic here. The only reason that works on Playstation is that they have full control over the kind of software that can run on their console and the way it is written. They don't have that on PC. They don't get to set the rules on an open platform. They have to play by the same rules as everyone else, and that includes being subjected to the same restrictions when it comes to component options and costs.

They can work their magic of just building a good portable PC, which is drastically less work now since they don’t need to focus on software here. Valve doesn’t have much experiences in portable PC too, yet can deliver a gem. Sony has some of the best engineers in the world

 

[ReBurn]

If Sony's PC ports are generally not as good as their PS5 releases then why would they release a portable PC? Wouldn't that just highlight their issues with porting to PC?

"Buy our $500 handheld to play worse versions of the games on our $500 console" would be a weird flex.

 

[LazyParrot]

They can work their magic of just building a good portable PC, which is drastically less work now since they don’t need to focus on software here. Valve doesn’t have much experiences in portable PC too, yet can deliver a gem. Sony has some of the best engineers in the world

The Steam deck proves my point. The most expensive model is priced very similarly to the ROG Ally, despite being bulkier, having a worse screen, slower storage and a significantly weaker CPU and GPU.

 

[CYRU5_DA_GR34T]

Given the success of ASUS ROG Ally, the rumors of an upcoming Lenovo Legion Go and the increasingly popularity of other portable PC such as AYA NEO and Steam Deck in recent years, its bizarre Sony haven't capitalize on the momentum and use their handheld experiences to create their own portable PC.

Instead we got a streaming-only accessories 'Project Q'

Why not release a Playstation Portable PC (PPP)? Imagine the PPP being able to play PC games, customized OS instead of Windows, stream PS5 games (like the Project Q) and PC games. compatible with all PC peripherals in desktop mode like keyboard/mouse, external storage to play video/music/images, native media apps, HDMI output to a TV etc

With unique feature of being able to install selected low end PS4/PS5 games from your existing PS library natively like Hades and Final Fantasy Pixel Masters, so existing PS fans have a portion of PS games ready to be installed and play without internet on it.
Also DualSense support for compatible games, and able to buy and play classic PS1, PS2, PS3, VITA and PSP games.

Add in OLED screen, touch pad, back touch pad, back buttons, and 8 to 12 hours battery life, better specs than ROG Ally, a price tag of $499 they could easily outsell other portable PCs. I will definitely buy a bunch of PPP for myself and friends.

some random concept art of a Sony portable handheld

Looks pretty nice tho not gonna lie

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

No.

 

[Cyborg]

No, it's actually Xbox that should.

I agree, it would suit the MS strategy a lot more.

 

[Hudo]

Sony already struggle to support the platforms with a steady stream of first-party games already. Introducing another SKU that you have to optimize for etc. doesn't sound like a good idea.